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Rocket Lab Unveils "Electric" Rocket Engine

New submitter Adrian Harvey writes The New Zealand based commercial space company Rocket Lab has unveiled their new rocket engine which the media is describing as battery-powered. It still uses rocket fuel, of course, but has an entirely new propulsion cycle which uses electric motors to drive its turbopumps.

To add to the interest over the design, it uses 3D printing for all its primary components. First launch is expected this year, with commercial operations commencing in 2016.

75 comments

  1. Hype pain by SuricouRaven · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's a rocket engine with 'turbopumps!' And 3D printing!

    Ok, de-hyped version: Rocket engines consume huge amounts of fuel. Getting fuel from tanks to engines needs pumps, which usually need their own mini-engines. This design uses electric pumps, saving weight and complexity. They are using 3D printed parts, including titanium, because it lets them iterate through design refinements quickly. The engines themselves still burn fuel as normal, they just weigh less.

    1. Re:Hype pain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure that this can save any weight. Pumping fuel will still require just as much energy, and batteries are a terribly heavy energy source compared to rocket fuel. It looks to me like a big win for cost, complexity, and safety, though. From a budgetary perspective, a pump-fed engine can usually be approximated as "a set of turbopumps with minor accessories," and not having to design and build tiny rocket-fuel-burning jet engines could make small rocket engines much more practical. The complexity and harsh conditions in a turbopump also makes the things a major cause of engine failures, while electric motors tend not to fail in such destructive ways.

    2. Re:Hype pain by X0563511 · · Score: 2

      This does have some purpose - to allow you to restart the engine without externally running the pumps.

      You still need ullage though, but RCS can be used for that.

      --
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    3. Re:Hype pain by otuz · · Score: 2

      The efficiency of electric motors is around 90%, so I'm assuming the fuel-powered pumps have such a low efficiency it's worth using batteries instead of fuel to save weight. These are also unlikely to have rechargeable batteries, so the energy density may be an order of magnitude higher than let's say rechargeable LiPO-batteries.

    4. Re:Hype pain by DarkOx · · Score: 2

      The engines themselves still burn fuel as normal, they just weigh less.

      Hype or no hype that last clause is a pretty big deal when it comes to anything related to rocketry.

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    5. Re:Hype pain by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      It's a rocket engine with 'turbopumps!' And 3D printing!

      If it were only connected via the internet of space things and solar powered, it would be the perfect /. story.

    6. Re:Hype pain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except it doesn't have turbopumps at all. The summary is wrong and so is TFA. A turbopump is pump powered by a turbine. An electric pump is a pump powered by electricity. This is the latter.

    7. Re:Hype pain by linearZ · · Score: 1

      The pumps may be lighter, but where do they get the electricity to run them?

      I wouldn't expect the energy required to run electric pumps to be any different than the previous methods, and that probably wasn't trivial to start with. So does the electricity come from batteries (heavy), or are they doing something tricky like generating current off the massive amount of waste heat using some undisclosed thermal junction technology. A scenario like the latter would be interesting. But if they are using battery pumps instead of more established turbopump designs, then the whole thing smells a bit BSy.

      I know of more than one startup 3D printing engines out of titanium over the past few years. There is a lot of VC money going towards space stuff these days - private launch firms, asteroid mining, etc. Kind of a subtle gold rush if you know what to look for. These guys certainly are looking for a marketing edge. Do something shiny, put it on the Internets, get funding, eh?

      --
      Revolution is the opium of the intellectuals.
    8. Re:Hype pain by edxwelch · · Score: 1

      Still, I'm disappointed that they could fit "cloud computing" and Node.js into the design. That would be a truely awsome rocket

    9. Re:Hype pain by brambus · · Score: 4, Informative
      Turbine engines typically achieve around 33%-34% efficiency. Going off of Wikipedia, non-rechargeable lithium batteries are around 1.8MJ/kg, whereas kerosene is around 46MJ/kg. Now with kerosene, you need to carry around another 2.5 parts of oxygen, so gram-for-gram, the split is around 13 MJ/kg for RP-1/LOX. Accounting for engine efficiency, it comes to around 1.6MJ/kg for non-rechargeable lithium batteries driving an electric motor pump vs. 4.5MJ/kg for an RP-1/LOX turbopump. IOW, the turbopump version is around 3x more efficient. Now the dry weight of the assembly. A 1MW turbopump can be built in as little as 50kg (in fact, the Merlin 1C turbopump weights around 70kg and produces 1.86MW). A comparable DC electric motor would probably weigh in at close 2x than that. Not to mention, the dry weight of the turbopump is just the pump plus about 4-5% of the fuel weight for the tank to hold it, whereas for the electric motor pump + batteries, dry weight is essentially unchanged throughout the entire burn.
      Overall for a 1MW pump system for a 120s burn, the numbers would stack up roughly like this:
      • wet turbopump: 50kg + 8kg of fuel + 20kg of oxidizer + 2kg tank, total: 80kg.
      • dry turbopump: 50kg + 2kg tank = 52kg
      • wet & dry motor + batteries: 100kg motor with pump, 74kg batteries, total: 174kg.

      From a pure performance perspective, electrically driven pumps in rocket engines are simply worse. However, considering the cost and complexity of turbopumps and the relatively small part that fuel pumping overhead contributes to overall efficiency, it may be a cost worth paying, especially on a smaller launch vehicle, where the electrical equipment is relatively cheap. I'm not convinced ti scales to multi-MN engines, though, as there the electrical requirements would be enormous (100MW+ electric motors are somewhat impractical, as is the supporting electrical equipment).

    10. Re:Hype pain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From a pure performance perspective, electrically driven pumps in rocket engines are simply worse.

      I'm not sure if they are actually gaining anything (either weight or cost) or not. But, IMHO this is adding another three points-of-failure (battery, electric motor, and associated control circuits) into an already complex system.

    11. Re:Hype pain by geoskd · · Score: 4, Insightful

      comparable DC electric motor would probably weigh in at close 2x

      Not even close. The part you missed was the ready supply of cryogenics. The limiting factors on electric motor size are a result of two key effects. Thsi first is mechanical strength. This limitation will be roughly the same for both Turbo pumps and Electric pumps. The turbo pumps in existence today are near this limitation. The second effect is heat dissipation. All motors have to dissipate a significant amount of heat. The more they can dissipate, the more power they can draw. Electric motors have a tremendous advantage in that respect as they produce far less waste heat than other motor types. The ones you looked at on wikipedia are all dissipation limited designs. Given a rockets ready supply of cryogenic fuel, far more heat can be drawn off a given size of electric motor. This means that we can pump far more power through it, in fact the new limiting factor in this application would be mechanical strength instead of the traditional dissipation limit. End of the day, I would be surprised if the motors they have are not producing close to 50 HP / Kg. I have personally seen a 5 HP cryogenic motor that weighed about 300 grams.

      Also, you'd be crazy to use Li-ion batteries. You already have an awesome fuel supply, it would make far more sense to use a fuel cell. Expensive yes, but the reduced weight of the launch vehicle is worth it.

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    12. Re:Hype pain by brambus · · Score: 1
      You forgot the pump/compressor assembly. The engine itself is only a part of the weight I considered. I was also quite conservative, you could probably get it closer to 40kg for a purpose-built 1MW unit.

      End of the day, I would be surprised if the motors they have are not producing close to 50 HP / Kg.

      Which at 1MW would come to 27kg just for the motor. Then add on the cryo equipment, fuel pump and everything and you'd be at a lot more than that. Also, let's see that scaled up, because surface-to-volume can really mess these assumptions up. Just the electrical wiring needed to carry MW-type powers is no joke.

      I have personally seen a 5 HP cryogenic motor that weighed about 300 grams.

      I hope you meant 50HP, otherwise it'd be just silly (>260kg at 1MW assuming linear scaling). Also, let's see it productized and available commercially. In a lab for a few seconds you can get away with almost anything.

      Also, you'd be crazy to use Li-ion batteries.

      I said lithium, not lithium-ion. Rechargeable batteries have even worse specific energy and there's no need for recharging in a use-once scenario.

      You already have an awesome fuel supply it would make far more sense to use a fuel cell.

      If by "fuel cell" you mean hydrogen fuel cell, hydrogen is used on very few lift stages. So add the complexity of another fuel supply and dedicated tankage. Also, fuel cell efficiency is in the 50% range, with the rest emerging as heat (and possibly even less efficiency at the extremely high power densities you propose). Combine with a 80-90% efficient motor and you're back to turbopump levels of efficiency. So all you've done is made the rocket engine much more complicated and expensive for no gain. Honestly, if efficiency at all cost was your motto, just use a staged cycle engine.

    13. Re:Hype pain by cjameshuff · · Score: 1

      Fuel cells can achieve high energy density due to using tanks of fuel, but their power density may not be up to driving a fuel pump for a launch vehicle. They are also limited in fuels. This rocket appears to use some form of semi-liquid monopropellant.

      They state they use lithium polymer batteries on this page: http://www.rocketlabusa.com/ab...
      This is a rather odd choice. The main advantages of LiPo are rechargability and ability to be formed into thin cell-phone-friendly shapes, and they make tradeoffs to achieve these advantages compared to other lithium-ion and non-rechargable lithium batteries. LiPo batteries aren't a huge improvement over alkaline batteries in energy density, and are a few times worse than lithium metal batteries. An oxygen tank and lithium-air "battery" (actually a type of metallic fuel cell) might be a relatively good choice.

    14. Re:Hype pain by geoskd · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Then add on the cryo equipment

      There is no cryo equipment. You dont need it. You're sitting on a mountain of Liquid O2... Instant refrigeration.

      If by "fuel cell" you mean hydrogen fuel cell

      No, I mean a kerosene Fuel Cell, or whatever your primary fuel for the rocket is. The membrane for the Fuel Cell takes up some significant room, but weighs next to nothing. If you dont have to cram 500 m^2 into a 20cm x 20cm x20cm box, its much much cheaper.

      I hope you meant 50HP, otherwise it'd be just silly (>260kg at 1MW assuming linear scaling).

      No, I meant 5 HP. This was a long time ago when an off the shelf MW electric motor weighed more than a luxury sedan. The point was, even then, you could get order of magnitude performance improvements out of cryogenically cooling electric motors.

      At the end of the day, These folks have *made* an electric pump driven rocket. That pretty much means you've made one or more bad assumptions with your original post. The weight of the electric fuel pump vs the turbo pump driven unit is obviously at least comparable, Likely tipped in favor of the electric. I suspect its an offshoot of the idiotic public bias against electric drive vs ICE for passenger vehicles. People have been normalized for 100 years to the idea that electric motors are under-powered. The reality is far far different.

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    15. Re:Hype pain by camperdave · · Score: 1

      The pumps only have to run for ten minutes or so. Space isn't that far away.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    16. Re:Hype pain by camperdave · · Score: 1

      At 3g, it took the shuttle 8.5 minutes to get to Low Earth Orbit. This rocket is going at 30g. If things scale, then it will take less than a minute to reach orbit. Even if it took 5 minutes, there are three stages on this rocket. The batteries need to run for two minutes, max. In other words, you don't need big heavy batteries. Small, lightweight batteries will do just fine.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    17. Re:Hype pain by Barsteward · · Score: 1

      A couple of quotes from an article on Forbes about this:-

      “Using brushless DC motors and lithium battery cells, Rutherford’s turbopumps decouple the thermodynamic problem immediately,” said Beck. “We’re able to do things never capable before in a propulsion system. It takes complex piece of machinery and makes it simple.”

      "Of course, designing the engine this way comes with its own set of challenges. The electric motor that powers the pump is about the size of a can of soda, but operates at 50 horsepower."

      “Typically a rocket engine takes months,” said Beck. “We can build a Rutherford in 3 days.”

      --
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    18. Re: Hype pain by Woek · · Score: 1

      Thank you, Faith in slashdot community restored.

    19. Re:Hype pain by brambus · · Score: 1

      There is no cryo equipment.

      I meant the piping and pumping and internal structure required inside of the motor to get the heat exchange. You can't just dunk the motor inside of a pool of LOX and expect it to work, because the LOX will add friction, reducing power, and surface-to-volume means internal parts not in contact with it will overheat regardless. In engineering, scaling from 50HP to 1000HP isn't as simple as multiplication.

      No, I mean a kerosene Fuel Cell

      What's the efficiency of that? If it's comparable to hydrogen, it's probably not even worth it. Also can you point to a kerosene-hydrogen fuel cell capable of delivering 1MW continuously and that's also aerospace-grade?

      At the end of the day, These folks have *made* an electric pump driven rocket

      They have not made the rocket. They have made some prototypes of the engines and have nice drawings on their website. But as far as flying hardware, it's a pipe dream so far.

      I suspect its an offshoot of the idiotic public bias against electric drive vs ICE for passenger vehicles.

      You suspect wrong. The reason I'm skeptical is because a system with lots of intermediate energy conversion steps tends to be a lot less efficient and more complex. Now if we had batteries with an order of magnitude more energy density, it'd be an open and shut case. But until such time, it's simply a compromise between performance and cost.

    20. Re:Hype pain by brambus · · Score: 1

      Thanks, all of those I already read. Like I said, it's a compromise between cost/complexity and performance. Because their turbopump is so small (50HP really isn't much), they're running 9 engines on the 1st stage. Let that sink in. 9 engines on a 10-ton rocket. 450HP total will also give you quite low chamber pressure (probably in the 3-4MPa range), which pretty much meshes with the Isp I calculated for their first stage (272s at sea level). That's less than a much larger Merlin-1D can manage (282s at SL) and a far cry from what large staged combustion engines can do (RD-180, 311s at SL).
      Also, their statement that they can build a Rutherford in 3 days is somewhat dishonest. First of all, they need to build 9 of them (so 27 days) for the 1st stage and one of the main reasons why building rocket engines takes so long is because large engines need custom machining, fitting, welding and subsequent assembly testing. These guys are 3D-printing their parts, so it's a lot simpler. It's really significantly a function of size. If they tried building something the size of a Merlin 1D, I can guarantee you they wouldn't be doing it in 3 days.

    21. Re:Hype pain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is an example of the part that is being replaced.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6BC1QfA0Ug

    22. Re:Hype pain by cjameshuff · · Score: 1

      The minimum amount of energy required to pump a given quantity of propellant against a given chamber pressure is fixed, and not low. Doing it in a shorter period of time only makes the *power* requirements *higher*. You also need enough batteries to supply your power demands with the batteries partially discharged, so the effective energy density is reduced.

      For a rough, BOTE calculation: they claim a thrust of 4600 lbf and specific impulse (vacuum, presumably) of 327 s. Mass flow rate is something like 6 kg/s. Very roughly approximating the combined LOX and RP-1 density as 1 g/cm^3, assuming a Merlin 1D-like chamber pressure of 9.7 MPa, pumping with 100% efficiency takes 62 kW per engine. Realistically, more like 100-200 kW, or 1-2 MW total.

      Also, the rocket's not going at anything close to 30 gravities. All 9 first stage engines at peak thrust could only push about 600 kg at that acceleration.

    23. Re: Hype pain by billdale · · Score: 1

      You are one of the few commenters that are making any sense. The several trolls criticizing their electric pump methodology sound like the thousands of critics of Tesla Motors... even years after achieving glowing success, dingbats such as Eric [ig] Noble have been making fools of themselves, proclaiming Tesla and EVs a dead end, failure, noncompetitive, etc. This Kiwi company reminds me of Musk, Tesla, and SpaceX in many ways, including the very aggressive use of 3D printing in the SpaceX rockets and other subsystems, and the reusable components SpaceX is utilizing to dramatically reduce the per - launch cost of space travel-- both companies are dramatically slashing launch costs, but I do prefer SpaceX's approach, for the simple reason that we should not be considering launch vehicles costing millions of dollars as "throw-away"... expandable... so long as we CAN reuse something, we SHOULD. Also, several of the commenters critical of this company give us all these silly equations and numbers to explain why their electric fuel systems would be heavier than conventional launch hardware-- this company has already designed, built, and tested their systems proving they work, and at a greatly reduced weight-- these critics need to move in with that nutjob Eric Noble... they are all totally out of touch with reality! I'm a huge fan of Telsa, SpaceX, and Musk, but I commend these Kiwis for their creativity and determination... and knowing how Elon Musk thinks, I suspect he wishes them the best of luck as well.

    24. Re:Hype pain by geoskd · · Score: 1

      I meant the piping and pumping and internal structure required inside of the motor to get the heat exchange. You can't just dunk the motor inside of a pool of LOX and expect it to work, because the LOX will add friction, reducing power, and surface-to-volume means internal parts not in contact with it will overheat regardless.

      You can in fact just "dunk" the rotor in LOX. Its actually the standard practice in most liquid pumping systems to have the rotor in the fluid. Using AC Induction, this works quite well. You have to seal the rotor against LOX (A bit more difficult than water, but both are tremendously corrosive, so this is pretty well understood).

      They have not made the rocket. They have made some prototypes of the engines and have nice drawings on their website. But as far as flying hardware, it's a pipe dream so far.

      They have made the motor. It performs to their specifications. The rest is pretty straight forward, Keep the drag down, keep the weight down. If the motor performs to the spec they were looking for then it is a successful engine. The next hardest part is controlling the rocket, which is going to be a damn sight easier with electric fuel pumps (Think fuel injection for your car, same principle).

      Now if we had batteries with an order of magnitude more energy density, it'd be an open and shut case. But until such time, it's simply a compromise between performance and cost.

      From reading a bit further, they are in fact using batteries. They are not using *rechargeable* batteries. They are using what are called primary batteries (like the C or D size ones you can get at the grocery store.) The difference between rechargeable and "primary" batteries is in fact about an order of magnitude higher energy density than rechargeable. If properly cooled, have monumental power density. They are also a lot cheaper if the whole thing is a one shot deal.

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    25. Re:Hype pain by brambus · · Score: 1

      You can in fact just "dunk" the rotor in LOX.

      Have you see this demonstrated on 1000HP-scale motors? Again, scale is the big question here.

      Using AC Induction

      They're using DC motors. The additional weight of inverters would be quite a cost. And an AC motor would heat up internally as well, away from the cooling liquid. You just can't get around it, as soon as you induce any current, you get losses and heat production. At your 5HP, it may be a non-issue. At >1000HP maybe not so much any more.

      They have made the motor. It performs to their specifications.

      Yes, and in other posts I have also calculated their specifications. OK performance for a modern hydrocarbon engine, but certainly not amazing. Very power limited (9 engines for only a 10 ton rocket?!) Less efficient than a much larger Merlin 1D and far less efficient than a staged cycle engine. So yeah, compromises, exactly like I said.

      The next hardest part is controlling the rocket, which is going to be a damn sight easier with electric fuel pumps (Think fuel injection for your car, same principle).

      Eeh, what? Rocket control (by which I presume you mean flight control) has almost nothing to do with engine cycle and everything to do with aerodynamics. Car control also has dick-all to do with fuel injection. A car is equally controllable whether it's fuel injected, carburated, naturally or forced-induction aspirated, etc. Moreover, my point wasn't that they didn't have a working engine. Of course I knew they had. But there's an awful lot of engineering that goes into rocket design besides the engines. It isn't "just a bunch of tubes around the engine". It takes an enormous amount of effort to take an engine which runs on a test stand and building a flyable piece of hardware using it. Take airplanes for instance. Yeah, 25% of the cost is in the engines, but that doesn't mean the remaining 75% doesn't exist. It just means that it's subdivided into millions of other parts, which together mean you've still got a lot of work ahead of yourself. And that's before we get to the regulatory and red-tape stuff that everything with the label "aerospace" is totally swamped with.

      They are not using *rechargeable* batteries.

      That's what I've been saying all along and I used it in my calculations. See about 4 posts back.

    26. Re:Hype pain by cjameshuff · · Score: 1

      It would make sense to primary batteries, to the point of being the overwhelmingly obvious choice. However, they aren't even using plain lithium-ion:
      http://www.rocketlabusa.com/ab...

      "Rutherford adopts an entirely new propulsion cycle, making use of brushless DC motors and high performance Lithium Polymer batteries to drive its turbo pumps."

      Lithium polymer batteries being a form of lithium ion batteries that have an electrolyte with a bunch of added gelling additives, or an actual polymer electrolyte, trading some of their capacity for flexibility in form factor and leak-proofness that makes them better for things like cell phones. I don't know why they'd choose these batteries, but it's what their website says they're using.

    27. Re:Hype pain by delt0r · · Score: 1

      The power rating of turbo pumps is in MW and even GW. Batteries are not going to cut it on anything that not a toy.

      --
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    28. Re:Hype pain by godefroi · · Score: 2

      Just so we're all on the same page here regarding numbers:

      The SSME (Space Shuttle Main Engine) high presssure oxidizer turbopump produces 23,260 horsepower. The high pressure fuel turbopump produces 71,147 horsepower. That's just over 70 MEGAWATTS. There are also low-pressure turbopumps in play, and there were three of them per shuttle.

      The Rocketdyne F-1 (Saturn V main engine) turbopump produced 41 megawatts. There were 5 in the first stage.

      Still wonder why we don't use electric pumps?

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    29. Re:Hype pain by Beck_Neard · · Score: 1

      Your analysis is good overall, but there are a few sticking points. I don't know where you get the 33% efficiency figure from; it may be true for huge stationary turbines or turbines for large aircraft but it most definitely isn't true for turbines optimized for light-weight applications like rocket engines. 25% would be more realistic.

      Also, we still don't know what the design looks like. It's possible they are using a design which trades off pump power with some other variable. One thing to keep in mind is that the turbopump also has to pump the fuel to power itself, and this is eliminated in an electric design (although the relative contribution of this is minor). Also, a lot of the pump power goes into cooling the engine; it's possible that an alternative cooling scheme is used such as ablative cooling (this is pure speculation on my part).

      --
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    30. Re:Hype pain by brambus · · Score: 1

      Their design trades chamber pressure and engine Isp for lower pumping power requirements. They have 9 engines with pumps in the 50HP range, so around 350kW of pumping power. That really isn't able to give much more than 3-4MPa, which also roughly meshes with their claimed Isp figures (~270s at SL). The required power for self-feeding of fuel to the turbine engine is comparatively tiny, perhaps less than 1% of the overall output power requirement. As for cooling, they said they're using regenerative.

  2. Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What's the goal or advantage? Why can't the summary touch on this

  3. Meh. by Rei · · Score: 3, Interesting

    About 10 years ago I worked on simulating a rocket with electric turbopumps for fun. The concept was the exact same as theirs - minimize the number of parts that have to operate in harsh environments to reduce cost, maintenance and risk of failure. You don't even need any penetrations of the propellant lines, the rotor of the electric motor is the compressor itself.

    I have no clue whether the design will actually be practical. But it's certainly not new. I'm sure I'm not the first person that this concept occurred to.

    --
    *Kid Rock runs for Senate* Democrats: We must run Kid Scissors.
    1. Re:Meh. by Twinbee · · Score: 1

      You're probably a good candidate for answering this. Why doesn't a decent Ragone chart exists for rocket propulsion? I looked for ages in Google, an only found a few diagrams. It'd be amazing to see where new propulsion technologies fit on a single unified graph.

      --
      Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
    2. Re:Meh. by roman_mir · · Score: 0

      Ah, fucking hell, almost nothing new is new but if they can put satellites up at 6.6 million dollars a pop that is certainly new.

      How many people come up with their own products that are really built from nothing into something that others want to use? The answer is: not many. Anybody who is able to start a company and bring a product up and succeed in all of this without losing their sanity, health, all the money and family in this world is a fucking hero as far as I am concerned.

    3. Re:Meh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Would it be cheaper to pay for spare payload on a bigger rocket? Dead batteries still weigh. They haven't succeeded yet that's the thing. Sounds like you like hype tho

    4. Re:Meh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know what the difference is between them and you?
      They actually went out and did it, including finding and solving the 90% of the problem you find as you put the theory into practice.

      I bet someone said exactly the same thing you said about the first heavier than air plane....

    5. Re:Meh. by wjcofkc · · Score: 1

      I think the idea here is that we have only recently achieved the energy density needed from lithium ion batteries for this to be practical. This could not have been accomplished in 1999 - or at least it would have been a lot more heavy.

      --
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    6. Re:Meh. by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 1

      Batteries yes, but rocket's have huge reserves or kerosene and operate at high temperature. You could integrate a solid-oxide fuel cell as an energy stage (80% efficiency) and keep the stack warm with exhaust heat.

    7. Re:Meh. by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      There are quite a few for propulsion. A few for space propulsion. But the whole field is just too new.

    8. Re:Meh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Because you're asking the wrong question. Aerospace engineers don't plot energy density vs. power density: they plot specific impulse (or equivalently exhaust velocity) vs. acceleration (or thrust). Which gives the same answers in the form of variables more directly useful for rocket equations.

      You can get such plots in any good propulsion or mission planning text. E.g. Rocket Propulsion Elements by Sutton & Biblarz (8th ed). has one on p. 42; Space Mission Engineering: The New SMAD* by Wertz et al. has one on p. 548. (*Space Mission Analysis and Design was the name of earlier editions.)

    9. Re:Meh. by Rei · · Score: 2

      Apparently you don't know the meaning of the words "for fun".

      --
      *Kid Rock runs for Senate* Democrats: We must run Kid Scissors.
    10. Re:Meh. by Twinbee · · Score: 1

      Yes I meant specific impulse vs thrust.

      Thanks, I saw the plot in the former book you mentioned, though the diagram is still pretty coarse (not giving specific techs), and it doesn't unfortunately extend the chart to future or theoretical technologies.

      This kind of diagram summarizes perfectly why we can't (yet) create a brilliant, compact, and efficient rocket, so I expected a few more about.

      --
      Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
    11. Re:Meh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I recomend you check out Progress in Astronautics and Aeronautics Volume 223: Advanced Propulsion Systems and Technologies, Today to 2020 by Lu et al. It doesn't have the exact plot you want (the matter is a little more complex and subject to further development) but you'll get a good understanding.

    12. Re:Meh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apparently you don't know the meaning of envy.

      Or was the uncalled for criticism of others "for fun" as well?

  4. Specific impulse versus thrust by Twinbee · · Score: 1

    In terms of rockets. there's a trade off between fuel efficiency per kg and thrust per kg (similar to power versus energy for batteries).

    So where does the technology fit on this Ragone chart?

    --
    Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
    1. Re:Specific impulse versus thrust by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      Nowhere, because this is just a different mechanism to run the pumps in a normal liquid-fueled conventional rocket.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    2. Re:Specific impulse versus thrust by gman003 · · Score: 1

      Not true. Measures of rocket efficiency almost always count losses to the pumps.

      That's why gas-generator-pumped rockets (like the F-1, at 263s, or the Merlin 1D at 310s) are listed as less efficient than staged-combustion rockets (like the NK-33, at 331s). The rockets are measured as a full system, not at just the combustion chamber and nozzle.

      This one, I would expect, has higher fuel efficiency per kg and lower thrust per kg. Not having to burn any fuel for non-propulsive purposes will undoubtedly help its fuel efficiency, but the heavy batteries will lower the thrust efficiency. That's just an educated guess though.

    3. Re:Specific impulse versus thrust by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      Higher ISP than a regular chemical engine and worse thrust and thrust-to-weight-ratio I bet.

    4. Re:Specific impulse versus thrust by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      Some of that mass cost might be made up for by simplified pipes and valves, though. Not sure how much you'll really save here, as you're probably still routing stuff around the bell for cooling.

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  5. Cheap because of size, not engines by gman003 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Big rocket engines use big propellant pumps. The pump on the F-1 (used on the Saturn V) ran about 55,000 horsepower.

    Electric motors won't do that cheaper. And they'll sap the weight of the rocket, since even a dead battery is heavy. Fundamentally, a big rocket will be better served by a gas-generator or staged-combustion cycle.

    That's fine for this rocket because it's so small. The payload is 110kg. For comparable rockets, turn to Iran's unflown Simorgh, Israel's Shavit, or North Korea's Unha, all in the 100-160kg range.

    To put those numbers in comparison, let's look at SpaceX. The single-engined Falcon 1 put 670kg into orbit. A Falcon 9 runs 10,000-13,000kg. And the Falcon Heavy is supposed to lift 53,000kg.

    Or for an older comparison, Sputnik 1 weighed 80kg, and Sputnik 2 weighed 500kg. So they're building a rocket that couldn't even lift the second satellite to ever fly. I'm not particularly impressed.

    Maybe there's a niche for small payloads like this, but in all honesty, I expect you could fly several such payloads on one bigger rocket, or just hitchhike on the spare capacity on a big satellite launch. Still, worth a shot. Just don't pretend to be playing in the big leagues.

    1. Re:Cheap because of size, not engines by safetyinnumbers · · Score: 1

      Maybe there's a niche for small payloads like this

      For when an Amazon drone just isn't fast enough.

    2. Re:Cheap because of size, not engines by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      It can be used for Cubesats. You can do a useable satellite smaller than a Sputnik today because the electronics are better. Yes it is mostly used for universities or things like that. There are also some people doing "space burials" so I guess this could be used for that as well.

    3. Re:Cheap because of size, not engines by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      e.g. Celestis.

    4. Re:Cheap because of size, not engines by RedWizzard · · Score: 2

      Maybe there's a niche for small payloads like this, but in all honesty, I expect you could fly several such payloads on one bigger rocket, or just hitchhike on the spare capacity on a big satellite launch. Still, worth a shot. Just don't pretend to be playing in the big leagues.

      Where did they claim to be playing in the big leagues? And yes, there is a niche for microsatellite launch services. Your unnecessarily grumpy comments are largely correct, but you've missed the whole point of the operation, which is cost. Virgin's LauncherOne is aiming for $10m per launch, these guys are claiming half that price.

  6. Questionable engineering decisions. by mpoulton · · Score: 2

    Ever since their first widespread implementations in the mid 20th century, turbopumps have been powered by rocket propellants - either the same stuff they are pumping (F1 engine in the Saturn V), or a separate propellant dedicated to powering the pumps (Space Shuttle Main Engines). There are excellent reasons for this, and not many good reasons to use batteries and motors instead. Rocket propellant pumps require truly massive amounts of power to move thousands of gallons per minute of propellants at thousands of PSI pressure. The SSME turbopumps require over 70,000 horsepower per engine. Like all other rocket hardware, size and weight are extreme concerns. Power-to-weight ratio is the single most critical design goal. Rocket engines themselves burn the propellants they do specifically because those chemical combinations are the absolute best we have for producing the maximum amount of thermo-mechanical energy from the least mass, no-compromise. Using the same types of propellants to drive the turbopumps also provides the maximum achievable power to weight ratio. The SSME turbopumps produce over 100HP per pound, which is insanely high. No known electric motor technology can even reach that order of magnitude in power density, even considering only the actual motor itself! There is no legitimate contest in performance between a gas-driven turbopump and any other technology besides nuclear, and that's that. To make such a large compromise in power to weight ratio by using electric pumps is very odd. Yes, gas-driven turbopumps are really hard. They are the hardest part of building a large liquid rocket engine. But those challenges were first solved over 60 years ago, and avoiding a tough engineering exercise is no excuse for making a giant compromise in performance. The extra mass of that electric drive system could be replaced with propellant or cargo.

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    1. Re:Questionable engineering decisions. by gman003 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Uh, the SSME engines ran off the same propellant as the rocket - LH2 and LOX. It's a staged-combustion rocket - some of the fuel and oxidizer flow was diverted to a preburner, which partially combusted them (the mixture was fuel-rich, limited by oxygen), ran the fuel-rich exhaust through turbines for the fuel and oxidizer pumps, then exhausted into the main combustion chamber where it was mixed with the remaining oxygen to complete combustion.

      A better example for a separate propellant would have have been the V2 rocket, which burned ethanol and LOX, and had a pump powered by hydrogen peroxide.

      Right on all other points, though.

    2. Re:Questionable engineering decisions. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I cant see batteries currently achieving weight savings even with the state of lithium ion technology. Like you stated most large rocket engines either tap power from a preburner/exhaust gas re-circulation to a turbo-pump, or on the f1 specifically the pumps alone would generate ~50,000 horsepower. Turbo-pumps themselves are fairly lightweight devices consisting of a (turbine paired with a compressor wheel and pump housing) at-least compared to the amount and size of the batteries and motor one would need to bring to achieve that kind of power. This might only be practical for smaller scale engines.

    3. Re:Questionable engineering decisions. by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      You missed the bit where you can also feed the exhaust from the gas driven pump into the rocket engine exhaust and recover some of that energy and mass as thrust. The energy from an electric motor being completely lost. I though rocket patents are really tricky as most countries incorporate legislation to override patent laws and treaties when subject to national interests (patents with regard to military applications are purely voluntary and can be readily over ridden).

      --
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    4. Re:Questionable engineering decisions. by dbIII · · Score: 1

      On the other hand batteries really sucked in 1962.

  7. No such thing as an electric turbopump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The 'turbo' in turbopump means turbine-powered. If it's electrically driven it's just a pump.

  8. Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Soviet once tried, they got thrust to weight ratio of close to 0.000000......0000000...00005

    1. Re:Hmmm by camperdave · · Score: 1

      In order to do pressure feeding, the tank needs to be able to withstand the feed pressure. That means heavy, reinforced tanks. It's less massive to use a lightweight tank and a pump.

      --
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  9. Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    With their scale, I can't understand why do they use any pumps to begin with. Any rocket of this size can easily be made pressure fed with no problems. In fact, at 100 kg LEO payloads,LOX/Kerosene pressure fed engines have higher thrust to weight ratio than pumped ones

  10. vs. a Falcon 9 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    They can carry about 110kg to LEO, compared to the Falcon 9's 13150kg. That's 0.84% of the payload capacity. A launch is estimated to cost $4 900 000, compared to the Falcon 9's $61 200 000. That's 8.01%. That means cost per mass to orbit is nearly an order of magnitude worse.

    Surely if you need a small payload to orbit, it would be much cheaper to piggy-back on another mission, either paying for space on someone else's satellite or somehow launching multiple satellites in one launch? SpaceX is planning to launch an internet satellite constellation, so I'm guessing they'll have a second stage that'll somehow be more capable of launching multiple mini satellites?

    1. Re:vs. a Falcon 9 by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 1

      They can carry about 110kg to LEO, compared to the Falcon 9's 13150kg. That's 0.84% of the payload capacity. A launch is estimated to cost $4 900 000, compared to the Falcon 9's $61 200 000. That's 8.01%. That means cost per mass to orbit is nearly an order of magnitude worse.

      Yes, this is a really small rocket. If you are a government or some other entity that needs to put something small in orbit right away, the USD$5 Million price might not deter you, even though you could potentially launch a lot of small satellites on a Falcon 9 for less.

      And it's a missile affordable by most small countries, if your payload can handle the re-entry on its own. Uh-oh. :-)

    2. Re:vs. a Falcon 9 by Guspaz · · Score: 1

      But you can also get on a larger rocket (like the Falcon 9 you mentioned) as a secondary payload pretty cheaply, so there's no cost advantage in the "I only want to launch a small payload" category. There's also, for that matter, no guarantees that these guys would be able to get your payload into orbit any faster than established players, especially by the time some of the new launch infrastructure under construction comes online.

    3. Re:vs. a Falcon 9 by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 1

      They don't have nearly as much to offer if they can't do launches quickly. I'm sure they would make that a feature of their offering.

  11. I wonder... by SharpFang · · Score: 1

    This *might* be an avenue alternative to ion engines for flights that don't stray too far from the Sun. LEO-Moon, Lagrangian Points, inner planets. And it could be combined with ion and rocket propulsion.

    You can't store all the propellant at extreme pressures simply because the tank needed to contain these pressures would be extremely heavy. There's a fine balance between weight of the tank and savings on storing pressurized fuel (both energy stored as pressure and more fuel fitting in). We're at "state of art" here and can't push that much farther.

    But we can afford a *tiny* extreme-pressure tank, and we have weightless unlimited solar energy at cost of fixed-size, fixed-weight solar panels.

    Run the pump with solar power, gradually pressurizing the fuel to quite extreme pressures in the dedicated, tiny, very durable tank. Release it through a narrow nozzle at extreme speeds. Speed it up even more through combustion or electric field of ion propulsion. You're converting solar energy to extra delta-v with no extra fuel usage. You have just the fixed cost of the pump+buffer tank infrastructure and they can be kept really tiny, since we don't try to get a high throughput of the fuel (and have limited energy input anyway), just to increase the propellant stored energy by transforming electricity into pressure.

    --
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  12. Is there a market? by EdgePenguin · · Score: 1

    The technology seems sound. Others here raise concerns but I don't think they are showstoppers. This rocket ought to work. But who will buy it? The Falcon 1 filled a very similar niche and price point to this new rocket, and SpaceX simply couldn't find any customers for it. So why do people keep building these dedicated small satellite launchers? I am guess its because its easy. Your engines can be below the size threshold of various difficult and expensive problems. You don't need such a large launch facility. These companies may figure that, like SpaceX, they can create a tech demo rocket which won't attract payloads and then use it as a stepping stone to a proper rocket. What they seemed to forget is that SpaceX got through some very difficult times via direct injection of Elon Musks own cash, and also with NASA support which might not be offered again.

  13. Better comparison is the Falcon 1 by EdgePenguin · · Score: 1

    You know, that rocket that isn't flying because there isn't enough of market for its payload category...

  14. Scotty? by tmjva · · Score: 1

    Would not Scotty have said "Ion power" ?

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  15. BLDC Motors by metaforest · · Score: 1

    Are extremely efficient for their mass and volume. The key issue they must overcome is cooling. If the motor is in the liquid stream, (and this is a likely assumption) cooling is damn near free. As for the power supply, I am fairly sure that the reduced mass, complexity of the pump, plumbing and associated benefits with reducing the volume of the pump system that must survive extreme temperature and pressure, more than make up for the battery mass.

    Those that doubt the tech will scale up to larger designs don't really understand how flexible BLDC motor configurations can be. Comparing a custom engineered BLDC motor application with a stock industrial motor, even a stock BLDC, is simply a waste of effort. Modern BLDC hobby motors can easily produce 16 HP/kg with air cooling for intervals similar to what these turbine pumps need to do at efficiencies up to about 95%. I'm sure they do much better when liquid cooled. The battery tech is not quite as good at scaling yet, so some kind of fuel cell might be needed to produce the required electricity, but I could see this approach working for pump designs that scale to what Falcon 1 can do now with gas powered turbines.

    TL;DR: Reducing the pump to an integrated Impeller/motor result in enough reduction in mass and complexity that using primary batteries to power the pumps is a net gain in lift capacity compared to a traditional gas turbine pump design.

  16. Structural Power Composites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why not use stuff like this - Structural Power Composites:

    http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=22816

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0266353814002218

    Then your structural mass can also serve an extra dual purpose as battery mass too