Slashdot Mirror
Using Adderall In the Office To Get Ahead
HughPickens.com writes: The NY Times reports on the changing usage of psychostimulants like Adderall. They were once only prescribed to help children with attention deficit disorders focus on their school work, but then college students found those drugs could increase their ability to study. Now a growing number of workers use them to help compete. What will happen as these drugs are more widely used in the workplace? According to Anjan Chatterjee, the use of neurotechnologies to enhance healthy people's brain function could easily become widespread. "If anything, we worship workplace productivity by any means. Americans work longer hours and take fewer vacations than most others in the developed world. Why not add drugs to energize, focus and limit that annoying waste of time — sleep?" Julian Savulescu says that what defines human beings is their extraordinary cognitive power and their ability to enhance that power through reading, writing, computing and now smart drugs. "Eighty-five percent of Americans use caffeine. Nicotine and sugar are also cognitive enhancers," says Savulescu.
But cognitive neurologist Martha Farah says regular use on the job is an invitation to dependence. "I also worry about the effect of drug-fueled productivity on people other than the users," says Farah. "It is not hard to imagine a supervisor telling employees that this is the standard they should aspire to in their work, however they manage to do it (hint, hint). The eventual result will be a ratcheting up of "normal" productivity, where everyone uses (and the early adopters' advantage is only fleeting)."
But cognitive neurologist Martha Farah says regular use on the job is an invitation to dependence. "I also worry about the effect of drug-fueled productivity on people other than the users," says Farah. "It is not hard to imagine a supervisor telling employees that this is the standard they should aspire to in their work, however they manage to do it (hint, hint). The eventual result will be a ratcheting up of "normal" productivity, where everyone uses (and the early adopters' advantage is only fleeting)."
the stains become a warning
Americans work longer hours and take fewer vacations than most others in the developed world.
We shoot each other more often as well.
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
I am completely and totally for letting people have the freedom to do whatever drugs they want to. The war on drugs has been a blight on our civilation long enough
That being said, a world where taking things like adderall to compete in the employment world is not only accepted but possibly even expected scares the shit out of me.
If there are few to no negative side effects, what does it matter if people lean on these drugs to work?
I've not used them myself, but I don't care if others do.
I would call chemical dependence, i.e. addiction, to be a pretty negative side effect. Wouldn't you?
That's even ignoring the people, like one person in the article, who used these pills to cut down on sleep to about 3 hours per night for weeks on end and these magic pills do nothing to replace sleep. Getting in a car accident with one of these zombies sounds pretty negative to me too.
Would you like some more negative effects? It's not exactly hard to find on Google.
not just anecdotal, there is proof. which is why it is banned from use in a lot of extreme sports. people who do sports like snowboarding and swimming have been using it for an advantage for yesrs
source, 10 years of competitive swimming and holder of 2 state records.
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
When this came up a number of years ago on another forum, someone wrote:
[...] if the scientist working on a cure for cancer is doing this um what's the problem? Even if it were to have some negative side effects, and he knowingly chooses to risk it b/c he feels it will help him.
And I wrote this (slightly edited here):
Let's walk a few years down this road. It's 2025, and ehancers are legal, or at least their use is tolerated.
Your son has just joined a law firm. The other new arrivals are using Modafinil, or its successor, to let them work 100+ billable hours per week. While his employment agreement explicitly states that he's not required to use any enhancers, it's also clear that he'll never make partner without them. Is there an element of compulsion here?
Your daughter is getting ready to take her SATs; she's smart and ambitious, and wants to get into a top-tier school, eventually going into med school. Recent anonymous surveys indicate that 20% or more of students taking the test are using enhancers. Nobody's been able to do a formal study, but there are indications that these students are seeing boosts of 200-300 points in their scores. What advice do you give your daughter?
Fast-forward another ten years. Your kids have been using enhancers for the entire time. Originally, they were just a way to get a little extra "edge" -- but, having established a performance baseline while using them, who wants to become "dumber", slower, or sleepier by giving them up?
The problem is, the drugs aren't working quite as well as they used to. It's not surprising, really, at least not to a cognitively-enhanced neurochemist; enhancers, particularly the primitive second- and third-generation varieties, lead to short-term habituation and long-term neurological adaptation. New drugs are better, and with their help, new researchers are smarter. But they still can't do much to help those who scarred their brains with the older drugs.
Your son is fairly secure in his position as a full partner, but the firm's newest hires are scary. Most of them simply don't sleep, ever; they're at the office for days at a time without rest, and when they do take "time off", they're out skydiving, or rock-climbing, or just partying. Partners have always had the power in law firms -- but how long can they maintain power when their underlings are so much smarter and more ambitious?
Your daughter... your daughter isn't doing so well. She's landed a great residency, but the early-21st-century movement to limit the length of residents' shifts faltered and died in the face of enhancement drugs. She doesn't really need sleep, but she misses it, and she misses the companionship that was once associated with it. (Who wants to be involved with a surgical resident, who's almost never home?) When she does try to sleep, her dreams are invaded by the brain-burn victims she sees at work, and she wakes up screaming.
And sometimes the dreams intrude while she's nominally "awake". It's an increasingly common syndrome in long-term gen-3 enhancement users. The neurochemists are hoping that the new gen-5 products will help reduce this symptom.
I think we will go down this road. There's a very good chance I'll go down this road -- I've never felt like there was any such thing as being "smart enough". I think people in general, and researchers in particular, will be able to become "more intelligent", and once they do, they'll be able to figure out ways to accelerate the process.
But I think it's going to hurt. A lot.
It's not just pot or meth. It's true for alcohol as well. The general phenomenon is called state-dependent memory, and it's been established science for many decades -- the Wikipedia article cites a text from 1835.
If there are few to no negative side effects, what does it matter if people lean on these drugs to work?
I've not used them myself, but I don't care if others do.
That's totally not true. Adderall can cause insomnia, uncontrollable sweating, thyroid problems, and a laundry list of other issues. Aside from that fact the main problem is that it becomes useless. Your brain doesn't rest properly but because you're on stimulants you don't recognize that you're tired and just keep going. That sounds great but it has a detrimental effect where the benefits are eliminated by the exhaustion your brain is experiencing and you end up right where you started (or worse off). Then when you go off them not only do you start sleeping more due to trying to recover, your mental state takes a hit and it takes weeks to recover your baseline productivity.
As someone who genuinely needs to take this class of stimulants I wouldn't wish them on anyone. They can help but if I can avoid taking them for long periods I do.
Looks like someone rediscovered Dan Hurley's book. I see they put nicotine on their wishlist, which is pretty stupid
Adderall is a phenethylamine class psychostimulant. It's 75% dextroamphetamine and 25% levoamphetamine.
Otherwise known as "speed". And yes, it's a short term cognitive enhancer, with some pretty negative long term effects. They used to give it to fighter pilots, and now the pilots tend to traffic in it themselves. They call them "go pills".
You are generally much better off taking things like caffeine, ocetam, piracetam, donepezil (aricept) or ergoloid (hydergine). if you absolutely feel the need to boost your IQ score for the duration of the drug, but they tend to have decreasing effects over time, and there's a ramp-down effect when you quit taking them, as your own neurotransmitters recover (if they do). Similar to long term pot use, they can reduce the overall available neurotransmitters naturally present, permanently altering your overall brain chemistry. Usually for the worse, if you aren't taking them as a means of treating an underlying condition.
Obviously, there no accounting for people who are going to try to tweak their brain chemistry anyway.
Then let's all agree not to take it. As we really only care about the relative performance when compared against your peers. If all your peers did it, you'd be in the same place you are now.
Might be better is if we all worked less, got paid less and hired a few more people. I realize some people want to work 50 hours a week (or more), but I don't and it's been hard to not do that and stay in my industry.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
What a load of shit. Luckily there are other MD's posting in the comments on just how biased this writer is. He's basically claiming ADHD is a kid's only issue, and all adults are just abusers. People like him must HATE people like myself...a doctor-monitored adderall prescription for several years now. With it, I'm able to more fully use my capabilities. Without it, people would always comment "your really smart, but..." due to all the random and chaotic things I would do and say. Honestly, without my prescription I'd probably either be dead or in jail. Even so, being unmedicated has already lead to the accidental death of someone VERY close to me...if I had been on it then I probably would have thought the situation through further. So this guy can go fuck himself, and I'd tell that to his face is ever given the chance.
If there is a drug that will make you more productive to your employer, it will be embraced and encouraged.
If there's a drug that gives you pleasure, but doesn't bring a similar boost to a company's bottom line, it will get you sent to jail.
Let's not pretend that adderall in the workplace isn't just more capitalist social engineering. They'll exploit you any way they can.
You are welcome on my lawn.
In this case, the concern, which I think is fairly small but I can't deny that weirder things have happened, is that what's considered a normal, "meets expectations," level of productivity could be based on results obtained through the use of these grey-market or black-market drugs. This takes an already high-strung workforce and puts unreasonable expectations on them, such that more people may abuse these drugs and suffer the negative ramifications of them, who wouldn't otherwise be inclined to try them in the first place.
I struggle enough with caffeine and the negative effects of trying to keep intake manageable that I can't imagine how bad an addictive substance with much worse withdrawal symptoms would be.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
Yeah, and table salt (NaCl) and cyanide (NaCN) are just two kinds of sodium salts. That doesn't mean they affect the body the same way, though!
Besides, dosage matters (a lot!), and the dosage of Adderall used medicinally is way, way lower than the typical recreational dosage of meth, according to Wikipedia.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
"Your son is fairly secure in his position as a full partner, but the firm's newest hires are scary. Most of them simply don't sleep, ever; they're at the office for days at a time without rest, and when they do take "time off", they're out skydiving, or rock-climbing, or just partying. Partners have always had the power in law firms -- but how long can they maintain power when their underlings are so much smarter and more ambitious?"
Senior technical person here, >20 years experience. Top performer, creative, award winner, generating new work,etc.
Annual performance review time... Supervisor says. "You're doing great. Your raise is at the top of the range we're allowed to give. You got a bonus. But, there's a bunch of scary smart fresh-outs coming in. They don't sleep, they're incredibly productive, they're cheap (50% of my pay), they aren't married, they don't have kids. What are you going to do to differentiate yourself?"
Would you WANT, truly WANT, to work at a place like that? I wouldn't. If the rest of my office used Adderal or another drug to get ahead, I want to GET OUT. Not only will the place eventually bomb, but dependance is a bitch. I will find, or create, a job where that isn't tolerated. And it's not hard - yes there are plenty of places that "won't care, (wink) (wink)," but there will be plenty where professionalism is still King and it simply would not be tolerated at all, not even under the table.
. Define sqrt(x) as something really evil like (x / rand()), and bury it deep. Watch your coworkers go nuts.
Adderall is just taking it to the next level.
Maybe. Maybe not. There are no controlled studies that show any productivity benefit to a normal person taking Adderall. Many people "feel" that they benefit, but many people also feel that homeopathy cures their illnesses. TFA seems to make the assumption that these drugs actually work, when there is no scientific evidence that they do.
So, one day the team leader says "Hey, spiritplumber, you look tired."
"Yeah, the work is exciting but I'm having a bit of a hard time keeping up."
"I know what you should do."
"Thanks, but I only need one Monday off to catch up on sleep."
"No, nothing like that. Go to this one doctor and he'll give you a prescription no questions asked."
"For what?"
"Oh, you know, allergy medication. It's probably why you've been under the weather." (Winks, I miss it because I'm derp).
"What's it called? I have" (herbal remedy) "for allergies."
"ProCentra. Tell him you work here."
So I go home, talk to my girlfriend who's a chem engie, and ask her what the hell that stuff is, so she tells me it's amphetamine. The next day, I explain to my team leader what my family does to people who get any of us into drugs, and quit. My father disapproves of the decision because he says I should also have punched the guy out after quitting.
Liberty - Security - Laziness - Pick any two.
It's worth mentioning that one reason amphetamine (Adderall) and methylphenidate (Ritalin) are such strong stimulants because they are what's called "impulse independent." They don't just make your neurons work better/fire faster; they actually REVERSE the flow of your reuptake transporter. Your neurotransmitters don't get recycled like normal. So, if you take too high of a dose for too long, you can use up the neurotransmitters faster than your body can replace them. That's why it can take so long to get back to normal.
These ARE powerful stimulants and they shouldn't be abused. There IS addiction potential. There ARE downsides to them. This whole trend of overuse/reliance on pharmaceuticals is just bonkers to me. I don't get it. I really don't.
First of all, I take dexamphetamine for work - and for a reason. I've been diagnosed with ADHD and I really couldn't handle any job without the prescription drug; even with it my productivity is highly spastic in nature.
I don't like the drug. I very rarely take it on my free time, it clamps down spontaneous creativity and makes life altogether more about performing it, less about enjoying it. Never mind that I often enough walk around the flat forgetting halfway where I was going, at least by taking the drug at work I can afford a flat to do it in.
Now I'm afraid that a bunch of morons who value money more than life are going to get hooked on amphetamines, get bad press and inadvertently make it either more difficult or impossible it to obtain legally, even with a perfectly valid reason and over a decade's history of using it responsibly.
Western society, after a century of propaganda, is a far cry from being ready to understand and treat drugs responsibly. This is not helping.
I do not think people who rely on medication like Adderall or antidepressants should be allowed to drive.
Wow, I found myself so annoyed by your post I wanted to reply with "Fuck you!" However that's hardly constructive, even if it is in character. (Yeah, I'm trying to evolve.)
Anyway: some of us are productive, helpful, compassionate and useful members of society, but only when we take our medication on a regular basis. Typically we're not proud of that fact but it beats the alternative.
If it helps you feel better: when some of us identified by this generalisation fail to take our medication - for whatever reason - we suffer a special kind of agony that cannot be described or explained adequately to someone who does not need medication to function normally. Consider it a significant punishment, if that eases your conscience. In my own experience I've found it can take weeks to fully return to normal.
Would you feel as coldly towards a person suffering diabetes? A person who needs daily finger-prick blood testing and may even require insulin injections?
We didn't get to choose our brains or our bodies, just like you didn't get to choose yours.
Besides, if I had a choice I'd naturally rather be a unicorn, just like every other sane person out there.
..Mullah or Pope, Preacher or Poet, who was it wrote: "Give any one species too much rope and they'll fuck it up"?
VPs don't use prescription medication to be up at all hours, they use cocaine. This also one of the reasons that most VPs are insane.
Slow Down Cowboy! It's been 1 hour, 47 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment
Adderrall is speed. It works for a brief period, but the cost even for brief use is high. And, whether they call it "meth" or prescription drugs it's addictive as hell. I did a gig in an area and industry where this sort of prescription drug abuse is rampant. It was so bad we had a hard time finding people that could even pass a dope test. But the dope tests apparently can be beaten because half the folks that made it to the job were on adderrall. Probably they had a prescription.
One guy just did it a couple of times--he got the job done by working about 30 hours straight. I didn't know he was high, but figured it out later. After his 30 hour work binge he was out "with the flu" for a day. When he got back after his day off, he still looked like he'd had the crap beaten out of him. This guy was a project leader and took it on himself to 'get it done no matter what'. Last I heard, he figured out that 'no matter what' was way too high a price and wasn't using. Boss agreed wholeheartedly--he'd rather explain failure to deliver than abuse his people. Good boss. When the abuse got too bad he walked us all off the job--you don't treat human beings that way and we were very lucky to have a boss that stood up for us.
Another guy was a more experienced user, and looked like he could maintain. Unfortunately he had the attention span of a gnat. I was ordered by the boss to finish up some of the guys work and as I went through the job I could see where he'd started on one task, then just abandoned it before it was done and jumped into the next task. The whole job was like that. It was easier to scrap it and do it myself than to try to figure out what was done and not.
A third guy just had no focus left at all. Also an experienced user. I'd give him a job to do, come back in a couple hours and he's gotten nothing done. I'd demonstrate the job again and return again; the only part that was completed was what I'd shown him. This guy was so burnt as to be inert. I suspect he was on a little more than just adderrall as he acted a little different.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
Methylphenedate and adderall (dextroamphetamine) are dangerous: they cause psychosis (well-known). Caffeine causes withdrawal effects, and normalizes (you're not more productive on caffeine after you've become addicted). Phenotropil is the only safe stimulant I've found, but it's easy to build a tolerance--no negative effects, just it stops working. This is a matter of dosing: the normal dose is 100mg multiple times each day, and my analysis of the molecules (molecular weight, number of phenyl groups) tells me 16mg-24mg 1-3 times per day would be more correct for a 150lb adult male. The white elephant in the room is really the response: 100mg of phenotropil produces a noticeable stimulant effect; the normal prescribed doses of Methylphenedate and Dex only produce a cognitive benefit (they treat ADHD without making you hyperactive). People, of course, keep reving the engine until they feel it working, subtle effect be damned.
The same goes for modafinil. Modafinil will effectively let you sleep 8 hours for every 56 awake, no toxicity and no side effects; the new Armodafinil is less safe, but more profitable. Adrafinil metabolizes in the liver into modafinil; this puts strain on the liver, and can cause damage in the long term.
People are popping armodafinil, dex, and other dangerous crap all the damn time. The stuff that's safe has been backed by a few studies, but is either well-studied and scheduled tightly (modafinil--safe, not legal) or studied reasonably-well (i.e. not concrete, so not as certain, but toxicology is at least explored) and OTC legal. This leads to people mostly getting dangerous prescription drugs illegally (Modafinil aside) and abusing them, or getting understood-safe non-prescription drugs legally and having no good guidance on how to use them because their medical application hasn't actually been well-explored.
Of course, you also have the issue of drug interactions, long-term use, and so forth. Phenotropil is known pretty safe, but what are its drug interactions? What kind of effects will you get with high, long-term use, like some people do with 400mg per day doses for years? Will you start to develop psychosis after months or years, like with the other stims? We know it's absolutely safe at 100mg doses for months on end, but we don't know about 500mg doses for weeks or months or years on end; we're not even sure about 20mg doses for years on end. Even assuming drug safety, we don't know if it can chronically treat any condition or provide any benefit.
Then you have stuff like noopept that just jacks up your BNF and BDNF--which is great, but 10 minutes on a bicycle will do that. Not kidding. This is the most powerful cognitive enhancer on the market, and it's equivalent to a short jog.
Support my political activism on Patreon.
As a software developer in my late 40's, I have no trouble concentrating. I can go long stretches without any
holy shit! a Squirrel just hopped from one branch to another outside my office window! A grey squirrel... Let me look that up on wikipedia...
dammit, DNS is down... I wonder if there's a new bind exploit? I should look it up. I'll use my phone because DNS is down.
Oh look! A text message!
whoa! There goes the squirrel again!