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Using Adderall In the Office To Get Ahead
HughPickens.com writes: The NY Times reports on the changing usage of psychostimulants like Adderall. They were once only prescribed to help children with attention deficit disorders focus on their school work, but then college students found those drugs could increase their ability to study. Now a growing number of workers use them to help compete. What will happen as these drugs are more widely used in the workplace? According to Anjan Chatterjee, the use of neurotechnologies to enhance healthy people's brain function could easily become widespread. "If anything, we worship workplace productivity by any means. Americans work longer hours and take fewer vacations than most others in the developed world. Why not add drugs to energize, focus and limit that annoying waste of time — sleep?" Julian Savulescu says that what defines human beings is their extraordinary cognitive power and their ability to enhance that power through reading, writing, computing and now smart drugs. "Eighty-five percent of Americans use caffeine. Nicotine and sugar are also cognitive enhancers," says Savulescu.
But cognitive neurologist Martha Farah says regular use on the job is an invitation to dependence. "I also worry about the effect of drug-fueled productivity on people other than the users," says Farah. "It is not hard to imagine a supervisor telling employees that this is the standard they should aspire to in their work, however they manage to do it (hint, hint). The eventual result will be a ratcheting up of "normal" productivity, where everyone uses (and the early adopters' advantage is only fleeting)."
But cognitive neurologist Martha Farah says regular use on the job is an invitation to dependence. "I also worry about the effect of drug-fueled productivity on people other than the users," says Farah. "It is not hard to imagine a supervisor telling employees that this is the standard they should aspire to in their work, however they manage to do it (hint, hint). The eventual result will be a ratcheting up of "normal" productivity, where everyone uses (and the early adopters' advantage is only fleeting)."
the stains become a warning
I thought this was going to be a guide.
The great paul ErdÅ's died at 83 and published over 1000 papers. He was an avid amphetamine user.
Americans work longer hours and take fewer vacations than most others in the developed world.
We shoot each other more often as well.
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
The only people I've met who take adderall are all screwed up. They might take it and 'think' they're being production but in reality they're completely scatterbrained running around the office looking super busy and talking non stop. They're more the butt of all the office jokes than anyone you could consider an actual productive member of the office.
I am completely and totally for letting people have the freedom to do whatever drugs they want to. The war on drugs has been a blight on our civilation long enough
That being said, a world where taking things like adderall to compete in the employment world is not only accepted but possibly even expected scares the shit out of me.
If there are few to no negative side effects, what does it matter if people lean on these drugs to work?
I've not used them myself, but I don't care if others do.
I would call chemical dependence, i.e. addiction, to be a pretty negative side effect. Wouldn't you?
That's even ignoring the people, like one person in the article, who used these pills to cut down on sleep to about 3 hours per night for weeks on end and these magic pills do nothing to replace sleep. Getting in a car accident with one of these zombies sounds pretty negative to me too.
Would you like some more negative effects? It's not exactly hard to find on Google.
The future of supervisors recommending their subordinates take medication such as adderall is already here. I've witnessed it myself at an ad and marketing agency in the northeast. A marketing director was pulled aside by a VP and president of the agency to say they've noticed a slight slowdown in her performance over the past year. They said it's okay, it "happens as we get older" and recommended she speak with one of several friendly doctors they recommend her for medication to give her a more youthful edge.
After that I understood the insanity behind the eyes of that VP, and how they could go from 7am to 2am for a week without crashing like others.
people are addicted to all sorts of things. humans have addictive personalities. be it caffeine, or chocolate, or movies, or work. As long as people are not hurting others, who cares what one puts in their bodies??
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
not just anecdotal, there is proof. which is why it is banned from use in a lot of extreme sports. people who do sports like snowboarding and swimming have been using it for an advantage for yesrs
source, 10 years of competitive swimming and holder of 2 state records.
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
Yup until your boss starts making noise why you can't keep up with Danny who is using the drug.
Or when you are passed up on a promotion for a guy that is using the drug.
Or when you notice you are the only one in the office not on the drug, and you get called into the office, and given a shiny pink slip. Oh yeah and everyone in the office realizes that, and they get second thoughts about stopping taking the drug....
When this came up a number of years ago on another forum, someone wrote:
[...] if the scientist working on a cure for cancer is doing this um what's the problem? Even if it were to have some negative side effects, and he knowingly chooses to risk it b/c he feels it will help him.
And I wrote this (slightly edited here):
Let's walk a few years down this road. It's 2025, and ehancers are legal, or at least their use is tolerated.
Your son has just joined a law firm. The other new arrivals are using Modafinil, or its successor, to let them work 100+ billable hours per week. While his employment agreement explicitly states that he's not required to use any enhancers, it's also clear that he'll never make partner without them. Is there an element of compulsion here?
Your daughter is getting ready to take her SATs; she's smart and ambitious, and wants to get into a top-tier school, eventually going into med school. Recent anonymous surveys indicate that 20% or more of students taking the test are using enhancers. Nobody's been able to do a formal study, but there are indications that these students are seeing boosts of 200-300 points in their scores. What advice do you give your daughter?
Fast-forward another ten years. Your kids have been using enhancers for the entire time. Originally, they were just a way to get a little extra "edge" -- but, having established a performance baseline while using them, who wants to become "dumber", slower, or sleepier by giving them up?
The problem is, the drugs aren't working quite as well as they used to. It's not surprising, really, at least not to a cognitively-enhanced neurochemist; enhancers, particularly the primitive second- and third-generation varieties, lead to short-term habituation and long-term neurological adaptation. New drugs are better, and with their help, new researchers are smarter. But they still can't do much to help those who scarred their brains with the older drugs.
Your son is fairly secure in his position as a full partner, but the firm's newest hires are scary. Most of them simply don't sleep, ever; they're at the office for days at a time without rest, and when they do take "time off", they're out skydiving, or rock-climbing, or just partying. Partners have always had the power in law firms -- but how long can they maintain power when their underlings are so much smarter and more ambitious?
Your daughter... your daughter isn't doing so well. She's landed a great residency, but the early-21st-century movement to limit the length of residents' shifts faltered and died in the face of enhancement drugs. She doesn't really need sleep, but she misses it, and she misses the companionship that was once associated with it. (Who wants to be involved with a surgical resident, who's almost never home?) When she does try to sleep, her dreams are invaded by the brain-burn victims she sees at work, and she wakes up screaming.
And sometimes the dreams intrude while she's nominally "awake". It's an increasingly common syndrome in long-term gen-3 enhancement users. The neurochemists are hoping that the new gen-5 products will help reduce this symptom.
I think we will go down this road. There's a very good chance I'll go down this road -- I've never felt like there was any such thing as being "smart enough". I think people in general, and researchers in particular, will be able to become "more intelligent", and once they do, they'll be able to figure out ways to accelerate the process.
But I think it's going to hurt. A lot.
America, a nation of Stakhanovites.
Here's the response I gave when coworkers at the office ask if I drink coffee:
> They don't pay me enough to take performance enhancing drugs.
-- I was raised on the command line, bitch
It's not just pot or meth. It's true for alcohol as well. The general phenomenon is called state-dependent memory, and it's been established science for many decades -- the Wikipedia article cites a text from 1835.
This drug is two amphetamine salts mixed together. The amphetamine users I knew had very adverse side effects (especially the dead one); how could this possibly become legal?
If there are few to no negative side effects, what does it matter if people lean on these drugs to work?
I've not used them myself, but I don't care if others do.
That's totally not true. Adderall can cause insomnia, uncontrollable sweating, thyroid problems, and a laundry list of other issues. Aside from that fact the main problem is that it becomes useless. Your brain doesn't rest properly but because you're on stimulants you don't recognize that you're tired and just keep going. That sounds great but it has a detrimental effect where the benefits are eliminated by the exhaustion your brain is experiencing and you end up right where you started (or worse off). Then when you go off them not only do you start sleeping more due to trying to recover, your mental state takes a hit and it takes weeks to recover your baseline productivity.
As someone who genuinely needs to take this class of stimulants I wouldn't wish them on anyone. They can help but if I can avoid taking them for long periods I do.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/135908.The_Tomorrow_File
I worked at a company that knew I was snorting meth. And on adderall. I wasn't the only one. The company kept encouraging us to go as fast and focused as possible, taking full advantage.
sure, and humans are made of water, its the same!!!!
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
Looks like someone rediscovered Dan Hurley's book. I see they put nicotine on their wishlist, which is pretty stupid
Adderall is a phenethylamine class psychostimulant. It's 75% dextroamphetamine and 25% levoamphetamine.
Otherwise known as "speed". And yes, it's a short term cognitive enhancer, with some pretty negative long term effects. They used to give it to fighter pilots, and now the pilots tend to traffic in it themselves. They call them "go pills".
You are generally much better off taking things like caffeine, ocetam, piracetam, donepezil (aricept) or ergoloid (hydergine). if you absolutely feel the need to boost your IQ score for the duration of the drug, but they tend to have decreasing effects over time, and there's a ramp-down effect when you quit taking them, as your own neurotransmitters recover (if they do). Similar to long term pot use, they can reduce the overall available neurotransmitters naturally present, permanently altering your overall brain chemistry. Usually for the worse, if you aren't taking them as a means of treating an underlying condition.
Obviously, there no accounting for people who are going to try to tweak their brain chemistry anyway.
Then let's all agree not to take it. As we really only care about the relative performance when compared against your peers. If all your peers did it, you'd be in the same place you are now.
Might be better is if we all worked less, got paid less and hired a few more people. I realize some people want to work 50 hours a week (or more), but I don't and it's been hard to not do that and stay in my industry.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
If you get immunized, you also get ahead in live and work by unnaturally avoiding diseases. Lately there has been noise about forcing people to get shots no matter what they think. Personally I think you should have a choice. But if there are drugs for which beneficial effects dramatically outweigh side effects, I am all for their use becoming widespread. Adderall is definitely not it - current drugs are too blunt and uniformly carried thoughout the body, causing side effects to organs. The future is gene therapy or nano capsules that deliver active ingredients to only a targeted group of cells. On the other hand, people taking it now are volunteer guinea pigs who will help us one day come up with better and safer drugs.
What a load of shit. Luckily there are other MD's posting in the comments on just how biased this writer is. He's basically claiming ADHD is a kid's only issue, and all adults are just abusers. People like him must HATE people like myself...a doctor-monitored adderall prescription for several years now. With it, I'm able to more fully use my capabilities. Without it, people would always comment "your really smart, but..." due to all the random and chaotic things I would do and say. Honestly, without my prescription I'd probably either be dead or in jail. Even so, being unmedicated has already lead to the accidental death of someone VERY close to me...if I had been on it then I probably would have thought the situation through further. So this guy can go fuck himself, and I'd tell that to his face is ever given the chance.
If there is a drug that will make you more productive to your employer, it will be embraced and encouraged.
If there's a drug that gives you pleasure, but doesn't bring a similar boost to a company's bottom line, it will get you sent to jail.
Let's not pretend that adderall in the workplace isn't just more capitalist social engineering. They'll exploit you any way they can.
You are welcome on my lawn.
In this case, the concern, which I think is fairly small but I can't deny that weirder things have happened, is that what's considered a normal, "meets expectations," level of productivity could be based on results obtained through the use of these grey-market or black-market drugs. This takes an already high-strung workforce and puts unreasonable expectations on them, such that more people may abuse these drugs and suffer the negative ramifications of them, who wouldn't otherwise be inclined to try them in the first place.
I struggle enough with caffeine and the negative effects of trying to keep intake manageable that I can't imagine how bad an addictive substance with much worse withdrawal symptoms would be.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
Caffeine is a horrible drug to form a dependence on.
Well, I am pretty sure that anything that makes you perform beyond your norm is likely to lead to burnout at some point. As some have mentioned, some people use this to get by on only a few hours sleep, but it doesn't replace sleep, so there is bound to be a crash at some point. Not to mention, short term memory loss.
Of course, to your point, enhanced productivity for a quarter or two followed by the employee dropping dead is just fine with the Job Creators.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
you hit the nail on the head. thats exactly what it is. its nothing but repetition, I would have a little before practice nightly (3 hours a night 5 days a week) and when i was breaking records (that have since been broken) i would before every race. Now they check for that but at the time it was one of those dont ask dont tell things. I had a clear 1/2 second to second advantage when on it vs not (when 10ths of a seconds mean 1st or 20th)
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
The fucking SJW's of slashdot are going to claim this makes it "unfair" and will try to get them banned. This is just a bunch of stupid cunts imposing their feminazi unmeritocracy on the rest of us.
Rest assured, this will never happen.
The concerns about side effects of adderall are overblown for healthy individuals. As someone who has ADD and is on Adderall and is happy with it's benefits, and who has other health problems that relate to the reported side effects, particularly cardio-vascular issues, If you are getting Adderall on prescription and your doctor is doing his job, You will be checked regularly much more closely for cardiovascular abnormalities. You will get an ECG every few check ups to make sure you are not reacting badly. That being said, if you are getting it illegally and self medicating, you will not have the benefit of a doctor making sure you are not reacting negatively to the meds. This is how the system is set up.
say whatever you like about the political arrangement of the country, it is not germane to the discussion and the argument that someone on adderall would be given a promotion over someone who is known not to take adderall is not a valid argument, because of HIPPA laws. You don't have to tell anyone what medications you are on, and unless you tell your boss there is no other way they would know other than going through your things, illegally digging for information or if you are dumb and tell them. Fair is an illusion, I hate to break it to you, life is not fair, some humans try to be fair but trying to act in life based on what is "Fair" is equivalent to beating your head against a wall. Choose wisely.
Here's a class of drugs you've never heard of before, called amphetamines. Here's a photo of what you look like if you take them a lot: those awful before-and-after photos
Now go take some Adderal. It's the same, just weaker. You'll be fine. Go make a little more money. Fuck sleep and living well.
"Your son is fairly secure in his position as a full partner, but the firm's newest hires are scary. Most of them simply don't sleep, ever; they're at the office for days at a time without rest, and when they do take "time off", they're out skydiving, or rock-climbing, or just partying. Partners have always had the power in law firms -- but how long can they maintain power when their underlings are so much smarter and more ambitious?"
Senior technical person here, >20 years experience. Top performer, creative, award winner, generating new work,etc.
Annual performance review time... Supervisor says. "You're doing great. Your raise is at the top of the range we're allowed to give. You got a bonus. But, there's a bunch of scary smart fresh-outs coming in. They don't sleep, they're incredibly productive, they're cheap (50% of my pay), they aren't married, they don't have kids. What are you going to do to differentiate yourself?"
While I think people should be allowed to alter their consciousness using the substance of their choice, it is important to recognize that different addictions are not equivalent in their effects on individuals, people close to them, or society at large. An addiction to caffeine or chocolate doesn't result in the sort of disruptions to families and communities that addiction to alcohol and opiates does. Alcoholism almost always results in people hurting those around them. An addiction to chocolate, not so much.
I do take something similar to Adderal in the workplace, and yes, it gives me an edge over some others. I started taking this because I had a real problem with concentration, by today's standard. That last part, "by today's standard", is the important distinction to make. Let's not kid ourselves here, this ADD/ADHD problem did not appear among humans just recently... What chaged is that we're (man and woman in the house) required to work more and be more officient with everything in all aspects of our lives. It really is no surprise that these medications really do help.
Strangely, I have no moral dilemma about taking this medication. Yes, it does give me an upper hand in the workplace, but that's just a happy coincidence that I happen to enjoy. And you know what? That's not even the best side effect that this medication did for me.... I saw a huge boost to my self confidence since I started taking the meds, and THAT's the best part.
Not to mention that I don't have any side effects.
I know of other colleagues that take these meds and I have to doubts that this is the future of performing drugs in the workplace (and everywhere else).
and then the worker comp attorneys come out of wood work and sue when some in a job uses drugs like this and things go bad and they end up in rehab
Would you WANT, truly WANT, to work at a place like that? I wouldn't. If the rest of my office used Adderal or another drug to get ahead, I want to GET OUT. Not only will the place eventually bomb, but dependance is a bitch. I will find, or create, a job where that isn't tolerated. And it's not hard - yes there are plenty of places that "won't care, (wink) (wink)," but there will be plenty where professionalism is still King and it simply would not be tolerated at all, not even under the table.
. Define sqrt(x) as something really evil like (x / rand()), and bury it deep. Watch your coworkers go nuts.
just have them brake the law and let the state take up the cost of housing / food / doctors.
Get a job in consulting already. I spend many hours trying to stretch a few hours of work int a week.
Adderall is just taking it to the next level.
Maybe. Maybe not. There are no controlled studies that show any productivity benefit to a normal person taking Adderall. Many people "feel" that they benefit, but many people also feel that homeopathy cures their illnesses. TFA seems to make the assumption that these drugs actually work, when there is no scientific evidence that they do.
People won't be able to cope with being smarter from a drug because they can't cope with naturally smart people enough in the first place, how will they cope actually *being* smarter?
They think they will be taking a drug to make them smarter (actually: "Not distracted by their *phone long enough to actually get some fucking work done") and trade off their ability to socialize for a perceived benefit that they already have were they to take responsibility for their own education, exercise, sleep and state of mind.
Coupled with the increased ability to recognize what people are thinking through an unwanted enhanced understanding of body language, they will quickly understand that additional I.Q is as much a burden as it is a blessing. Worse still they may become voracious readers for a while and start to know a few things they don't want to know once they become dis-satisfied with the droll drivel that is supposed to be 'entertainment' on TV. For a while they may even get shocked out of their ignorance and question everything while they ruminate on solutions. They will push harder and then need more drug.
They won't exercise or sleep any more than they used to, if they use to, even though their enhanced 'brain' screams at them to do so and they will continue to abuse whatever else it is they abuse that held their intelligence back in the first place.
What is the withdrawal symptom? You become so stupid you can't tie your shoelaces and so apathetic that you become a cognitive burden on society (as if there wasn't enough of that already).
Why? Because they need a drug to make them smarter - that's why.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
So, one day the team leader says "Hey, spiritplumber, you look tired."
"Yeah, the work is exciting but I'm having a bit of a hard time keeping up."
"I know what you should do."
"Thanks, but I only need one Monday off to catch up on sleep."
"No, nothing like that. Go to this one doctor and he'll give you a prescription no questions asked."
"For what?"
"Oh, you know, allergy medication. It's probably why you've been under the weather." (Winks, I miss it because I'm derp).
"What's it called? I have" (herbal remedy) "for allergies."
"ProCentra. Tell him you work here."
So I go home, talk to my girlfriend who's a chem engie, and ask her what the hell that stuff is, so she tells me it's amphetamine. The next day, I explain to my team leader what my family does to people who get any of us into drugs, and quit. My father disapproves of the decision because he says I should also have punched the guy out after quitting.
Liberty - Security - Laziness - Pick any two.
"Call your doctor immediately if you experience a coding session lasting more than four hours, as this may indicate a serious side effect."
John
It's worth mentioning that one reason amphetamine (Adderall) and methylphenidate (Ritalin) are such strong stimulants because they are what's called "impulse independent." They don't just make your neurons work better/fire faster; they actually REVERSE the flow of your reuptake transporter. Your neurotransmitters don't get recycled like normal. So, if you take too high of a dose for too long, you can use up the neurotransmitters faster than your body can replace them. That's why it can take so long to get back to normal.
These ARE powerful stimulants and they shouldn't be abused. There IS addiction potential. There ARE downsides to them. This whole trend of overuse/reliance on pharmaceuticals is just bonkers to me. I don't get it. I really don't.
aside from the fact that the 'eighty-five percent' figure is a gross exaggeration (that would amount to 100% of the population over the age of 12-13 or so)... the correct phrasing would be 'eighty-five percent of americans *consume* caffeine. "use" implies intent to benefit from its stimulant effects, or are addicted, and that large of a group is not "using"... they're just eating chocolate, drinking soda pop, or taking anacin.... the ones that drink a half-gallon of mountain dew or coffee daily and can't live without that first 'hit' in the morning, or those who down red bulls like jell-o shots at a frat party are the ones that are "using", and that's a much, much smaller percentage..
Very well might be cheaper, but probably not that much, especially if you have an insurance plan that will cover it. The advantage of Adderall over street meth is increased duration of action. Adderall is formulated as a combination of several different amphetamine salts that release and become active at different times. That way you get smoother, more constant blood levels without big peaks or big drops. Those smaller changes make for less abuse liability to boot.
If use of such drugs becomes the norm, you'll have to take them if you are to keep up with your coworkers; that's one of the points the article makes.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
First of all, I take dexamphetamine for work - and for a reason. I've been diagnosed with ADHD and I really couldn't handle any job without the prescription drug; even with it my productivity is highly spastic in nature.
I don't like the drug. I very rarely take it on my free time, it clamps down spontaneous creativity and makes life altogether more about performing it, less about enjoying it. Never mind that I often enough walk around the flat forgetting halfway where I was going, at least by taking the drug at work I can afford a flat to do it in.
Now I'm afraid that a bunch of morons who value money more than life are going to get hooked on amphetamines, get bad press and inadvertently make it either more difficult or impossible it to obtain legally, even with a perfectly valid reason and over a decade's history of using it responsibly.
Western society, after a century of propaganda, is a far cry from being ready to understand and treat drugs responsibly. This is not helping.
I had a student talk with me about Adderall abuse on campus.
He said it worked great, he could study all night but retention long-term was limited.
He also said he stopped taking Adderall off-script because it made him suicidal.
Whatever happened to coffee?
If there are few to no negative side effects, what does it matter if people lean on these drugs to work?
When the Adderal-ehanced cubemate of yours gets promoted and becomes your supervisor, you might care. That's the problem with this kind of bullshit becoming valued into the workplace.
I've not used them myself, but I don't care if others do.
When that Adderal-enhanced worker who's been up awake 27 hours straight working on that huge project finally tries to drive home and falls asleep behind the wheel, killing 3 people in a head-on collision...well, you know where I'm going with this...
There is a difference between amphetamine and methamphetamine.
I do not think people who rely on medication like Adderall or antidepressants should be allowed to drive.
Wow, I found myself so annoyed by your post I wanted to reply with "Fuck you!" However that's hardly constructive, even if it is in character. (Yeah, I'm trying to evolve.)
Anyway: some of us are productive, helpful, compassionate and useful members of society, but only when we take our medication on a regular basis. Typically we're not proud of that fact but it beats the alternative.
If it helps you feel better: when some of us identified by this generalisation fail to take our medication - for whatever reason - we suffer a special kind of agony that cannot be described or explained adequately to someone who does not need medication to function normally. Consider it a significant punishment, if that eases your conscience. In my own experience I've found it can take weeks to fully return to normal.
Would you feel as coldly towards a person suffering diabetes? A person who needs daily finger-prick blood testing and may even require insulin injections?
We didn't get to choose our brains or our bodies, just like you didn't get to choose yours.
Besides, if I had a choice I'd naturally rather be a unicorn, just like every other sane person out there.
..Mullah or Pope, Preacher or Poet, who was it wrote: "Give any one species too much rope and they'll fuck it up"?
It is nothing new:
"Paul Erdös (1913-1996), "the man who loved only numbers", was one of the most brilliant and prolific mathematicians of the twentieth century. Erdös spent much of his restless life on psychostimulants. As he once remarked, "A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into theorems."
But Erdös liked stronger medicine too. After his mother's death in 1971, Erdös became quite depressed. His physician prescribed amphetamines. Erdös took Benzedrine or Ritalin almost every day for the last twenty five years of his life. Sometimes he took both. ...
Colleagues worried that Erdös might have become addicted. In 1979, he accepted a $500 bet from his friend Ronald Graham. Graham challenged Erdös to abstain from speed for 30 days. Erdös met the challenge, but his output sank dramatically. Erdös felt the progress of mathematics had been held up by a stupid wager."
http://www.amphetamines.org/paul-erdos.html
And Adderall is a schedule II (high chance of dependence,) drug. Definitely a bad thing to have w/o a prescription. Modafinil/Provigil is a schedule IV (low/no chance of dependence) or better its precursor Adrafinil (unscheduled) are both nootropics promote wakefulness enhance memory and work well with caffeine.
Full disclosure, I take both Adderall for adult ADHD and Provigil (off label for TRMDD) I keep prescription copies on me as I have had drug dogs hit on my because of the adderall metabolites that I sweat out.
Yet they're both amphetamines. Just like opiates, yes they're not all heroin, but even the most benign of opiates, codeine being the most benign to my knowledge, is still habit forming and comes with a whole slew of risks which is why at least in the US, it isn't used in over the counter medications. For being benign, it's still pretty effing powerful.
The entire class of amphetamine isn't safe for general usage. They used to be used as diet pills and pep pills, you'll notice that they aren't anymore because it tended to cause all sorts of sleep deprivation issues such as paranoid delusions, and since they were all addictive, this caused for some pretty severe issues. Meth is more severe, yes, but to say the same issues don't exist with others is just willful ignorance.
Hahahahhahaha, I'm going to go out on a limb and say you don't work in IT cdwi?
Stupid coworkers are still stupid on speed.
None of that matters in corporate America. It's all about short term gains. Workers are nothing but a resource to use up, wear out, and throw away. If they can get a 10% productivity boost at the expense of your health and well being, that is a no brainer! If you get burned out, they can just as easily get rid of you and replace you with someone for half your salary.
The only thing that matters is stock price.
Slow Down Cowboy! It's been 1 hour, 47 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment
Kinda stinks for people who take it for ADD, or ADD and mild narcolepsy like me. Folks'll think I'm cheating!
"Call your doctor immediately if you experience a coding session lasting more than four hours, as this may indicate a serious side effect."
Doctor? Hell, I am calling a hooker!"
"Speed" typically refers to methamphetamine. The n-methyl isomer dramatically increases uptake, making it a very different beast.
What a load of shit. Luckily there are other MD's posting in the comments on just how biased this writer is. He's basically claiming ADHD is a kid's only issue, and all adults are just abusers. People like him must HATE people like myself...a doctor-monitored adderall prescription for several years now. With it, I'm able to more fully use my capabilities. Without it, people would always comment "your really smart, but..." due to all the random and chaotic things I would do and say. Honestly, without my prescription I'd probably either be dead or in jail. Even so, being unmedicated has already lead to the accidental death of someone VERY close to me...if I had been on it then I probably would have thought the situation through further. So this guy can go fuck himself, and I'd tell that to his face is ever given the chance.
My uncle tells me ADHD runs in our family. However, I consider the frictions in our family to be normal or based on psychological heritage brought down from a grandmother incapable of handling 4 children and having an immoral stance on her responsiblities. Plus living in an ending WW2 in Germany, including carpet bombings, fleeing Koenigsberg and Stetin to the Rhine area and being fugitives and 3rd class citizens as a result. Such things are passed down, no doubt.
I also think of my uncles ADHD fixation as an excuse for his alcoholism - he like to rag on how ADHD people work better with drugs. I would allot his problems to the regular beatings his generation received.
However, I do have character traits that some people would consider "ADHD".
I wouldn't. Or at least I would consider them to be a disability. I would appreciate the theory that my brain works differently due to me moving around roughly once a year during most of my childhood and said psychological heritage.
I'm basically a hunter-gatherer in a farmer-settlers world, or should I say: I'm adapted to hunter-gatherer mode in a world that is currently mostly adapted to farmer-settler mode. Yes, I'm one of those pretty much down with that theory.
While others have spent their entire childhood at one place, I had to move around a lot. I intimately and intuitively know things about this world and the people in them that others have to learn in hard lessons. I smell a con from 10 miles away, I can handle myself in a fight and I spot financial risks or flaws in complex systems (such as software architecture) in an instant. I find the usual vanity that comes with societies living in abundance strange, bizar, pointless, silly and sometimes flat-out repulsive. I recently re-read Paul Grahams Why Nerds are unpopular and I have to say the man once again pretty much hits home - read it if you can relate to what I am saying. That essay pretty much sums up my youth and the way I feel about the world and the people around me a lot of times. If I'm having ADHD it is not a disease, but a natural reaction to the at times bizar and backwords world around me.
However, there are things I struggle with that others have no problem dealing with. Regular chores or maintaining a home with more that two rooms. And who wouldn't? I'm just this week picking up Scala and starting a new company internal software project. A the side I'm keeping my mood by going out or doing some sort of contrast programm. I don't have *time* to do the laundry regularly.
I run up to speed when shit hits the fan. Basically I consider any other situation boring. Which, let's face it, it usually is.
I also see absolutely no point what so ever in performing in a job that is basically 90% pointless. I'm the lead developer in an agency and 90% of my work is politics and explaining to customers the difference between a client and a server and what the internet is and how it works. And the difference between Google and the Web - which very many people do not know or are aware of. And setting up WordPress and repairing the junkpile the last plugin-testing frenzy my project people left behind.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
There is a reason why your doctor will try to get you to eat healthy and exercise, rather than go down the drug route. Sometimes you can achieve just the same benefits, and it won't be killing you
"There are no controlled studies that show any productivity benefit to a normal person taking Adderall."
Sorry to hurt your Insightful rating, but looks like some new info just came in.
Link-Chain starting from Wikipedia:
(Best use of Wiki - start there, then follow the sources)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D...
Performance-enhancing section
"A 2015 meta-analysis of high quality clinical trials confirmed that therapeutic doses of amphetamine and methylphenidate result in modest improvements in performance on working memory, episodic memory, and inhibitory control tests in normal healthy adults.[32] Therapeutic doses of amphetamine also enhance cortical network efficiency, an effect which mediates improvements in working memory in all individuals.[21][33] Amphetamine and other ADHD stimulants also improve task saliency (motivation to perform a task) and increase arousal (wakefulness), in turn promoting goal-directed behavior.[21][34][35] Stimulants such as amphetamine can improve performance on difficult and boring tasks and are used by some students as a study and test-taking aid." [21][34][36]
Sources 21,32,33,34, 35 are:
21
Higher Cognitive Function and Behavioral Control". In Sydor A, Brown RY. Molecular Neuropharmacology: A Foundation for Clinical Neuroscience (2nd ed.). New York, USA: McGraw-Hill Medical. p. 318. ISBN 9780071481274.
32
Ilieva IP, Hook CJ, Farah MJ (January 2015). "Prescription Stimulants' Effects on Healthy Inhibitory Control, Working Memory, and Episodic Memory: A Meta-analysis". J. Cogn. Neurosci.: 1â"21. doi:10.1162/jocn_a_00776. PMID 25591060.
33
Devous MD, Trivedi MH, Rush AJ (April 2001). "Regional cerebral blood flow response to oral amphetamine challenge in healthy volunteers". J. Nucl. Med. 42 (4): 535â"542. PMID 11337538.
34
Wood S, Sage JR, Shuman T, Anagnostaras SG (January 2014). "Psychostimulants and cognition: a continuum of behavioral and cognitive activation". Pharmacol. Rev. 66 (1): 193â"221. doi:10.1124/pr.112.007054. PMID 24344115.
35
Malenka RC, Nestler EJ, Hyman SE (2009). "Chapter 10: Neural and Neuroendocrine Control of the Internal Milieu". In Sydor A, Brown RY. Molecular Neuropharmacology: A Foundation for Clinical Neuroscience (2nd ed.). New York, USA: McGraw-Hill Medical. p. 266. ISBN 9780071481274. "Dopamine acts in the nucleus accumbens to attach motivational significance to stimuli associated with reward."
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
Adderrall is speed. It works for a brief period, but the cost even for brief use is high. And, whether they call it "meth" or prescription drugs it's addictive as hell. I did a gig in an area and industry where this sort of prescription drug abuse is rampant. It was so bad we had a hard time finding people that could even pass a dope test. But the dope tests apparently can be beaten because half the folks that made it to the job were on adderrall. Probably they had a prescription.
One guy just did it a couple of times--he got the job done by working about 30 hours straight. I didn't know he was high, but figured it out later. After his 30 hour work binge he was out "with the flu" for a day. When he got back after his day off, he still looked like he'd had the crap beaten out of him. This guy was a project leader and took it on himself to 'get it done no matter what'. Last I heard, he figured out that 'no matter what' was way too high a price and wasn't using. Boss agreed wholeheartedly--he'd rather explain failure to deliver than abuse his people. Good boss. When the abuse got too bad he walked us all off the job--you don't treat human beings that way and we were very lucky to have a boss that stood up for us.
Another guy was a more experienced user, and looked like he could maintain. Unfortunately he had the attention span of a gnat. I was ordered by the boss to finish up some of the guys work and as I went through the job I could see where he'd started on one task, then just abandoned it before it was done and jumped into the next task. The whole job was like that. It was easier to scrap it and do it myself than to try to figure out what was done and not.
A third guy just had no focus left at all. Also an experienced user. I'd give him a job to do, come back in a couple hours and he's gotten nothing done. I'd demonstrate the job again and return again; the only part that was completed was what I'd shown him. This guy was so burnt as to be inert. I suspect he was on a little more than just adderrall as he acted a little different.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
This comment is why this topic is so dangerous.
See my note elsewhere to get past the "there is no proof" type responses.
The meds *do* work, *both* normal and ADD people.
So then it's sometimes the tipping point between having a certain job or not. So then your salary is dependent on this choice. I do have ADD, and they DO help. When I don't take them, the results often show up in "irrational blunders", both technical and emotional. "No one cares" why you are "a substandard employee" - they're not going to get into high end ethics.
Science Fiction has been nervous about this for decades, (and a lot of other emerging topics!), so we'd better go back to the classics to see what other people thought before us.
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beggars_in_Spain"
The real problem is not about skipping sleep - let's assume we all get sleep. But these meds for example let us perform more intricate work at a level that makes/breaks our job. So with all the forces of the 99%/etc making us need serious money to survive, even "the right to live" (aka food and rent!), then that's where the real sticking point comes, before it's all the Black Shakes.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
So basically bombing developing children's minds for a decade or more to make the more receptive to the state indoctrination is an important psychotherapy. But an adult voluntarily using the same drugs to further their personal goals shows once again how America is barbaric and discriminates against workers etc etc etc etc.
Got it. Thank you Comrade Marx
Adderall (etc) specific purpose is to muck with the central nervous system and your perception of reality. It may not cause people to see purple elephants, but an altered mental state is not a good tool with which to evaluate the alteration of perception.
I will bonk this one down right here.
The doctor that diagnosed my ADD and prescribed my medication, said this when I asked what credentials I needed to show to police if I am ever pulled over and found with my medication and whether it would be a concern while driving:
"Adderall does not cause a problem with driving, meaning it does not impair your perception or reaction times, quite the opposite."
So Adderall has a positive effect on driving, unlike most other drugs.
Also it is much less complicated than insulin (I am a type 1 diabetic and have been for most of my life) because insulin doses have to be constantly managed over time, all day long. Take too much insulin, hypoglycemia and you can be impaired or die.. don't take enough.. high blood sugar you can end up low on energy .. tired, end up in ketosis and if that goes on too long, you end up in a coma and if that goes on too long, you die. Insulin usage for type 1 diabetics is a never ending balancing act and requires a constant attention be allowed for at all times.
Adderall and Insulin are NOTHING alike. Taking Adderall , if you have ADD helps immensely, doubly so if you are a diabetic.. and no.. they do not affect each other... Otherwise my doctor would not have prescribed it. The so called "Side effects" of adderall, happen so incredibly rarely, that if you are under medical supervision using it and not self medicating, you are 99.99 % safe provided you take it as prescribed and have your heart health monitored. I cannot stress this enough in terms of the level of certainty here.. as a type 1 diabetic, I will never NOT be considered "High Risk" for cardiovascular disease.. Adderall's contribution to any heart disease risk.. is incredibly minor.. in terms of dementia, or other side effects.. the risk is even more miniscule.
Adderall is only dangerous, if someone is taking it without a prescription and is not using it to treat ADD, but to essentially use it as "Super Espresso" that, is dangerous in two ways.. 1- you are not monitored to see if you are responding badly to it.. and 2- you are likely using it in such a way that is not on a regular schedule, taking only one dose a day.. but taking them whenever you feel like it.. which, without monitoring your physiological changes when taking it.. is rolling the dice.. you might do it and get lucky.. but you might be one that does it and ends up having a bad reaction to it. (Rare but it happens.)
Coloring within the lines Adderall is safe, much safer than insulin is. Insulin can be dangerous if you don't know what you are doing. I really wish I could break the insulin habit. (Not much chance of that. LMAO!)
Did we learn nothing from the "War on Drugs"?
We sure did! We learned that drugs are freely available, as long as the right people profit from them!
Odd I get a similar effect of enhanced memory, better concentration, etc.. from a cup of aribica coffee. Black of course, coupled with some B12 once a week and Vitamin D every day, been doing it for years, seems to work fine to stay awake and I can definitly tell when I skip the coffee.
Methylphenedate and adderall (dextroamphetamine) are dangerous: they cause psychosis (well-known). Caffeine causes withdrawal effects, and normalizes (you're not more productive on caffeine after you've become addicted). Phenotropil is the only safe stimulant I've found, but it's easy to build a tolerance--no negative effects, just it stops working. This is a matter of dosing: the normal dose is 100mg multiple times each day, and my analysis of the molecules (molecular weight, number of phenyl groups) tells me 16mg-24mg 1-3 times per day would be more correct for a 150lb adult male. The white elephant in the room is really the response: 100mg of phenotropil produces a noticeable stimulant effect; the normal prescribed doses of Methylphenedate and Dex only produce a cognitive benefit (they treat ADHD without making you hyperactive). People, of course, keep reving the engine until they feel it working, subtle effect be damned.
The same goes for modafinil. Modafinil will effectively let you sleep 8 hours for every 56 awake, no toxicity and no side effects; the new Armodafinil is less safe, but more profitable. Adrafinil metabolizes in the liver into modafinil; this puts strain on the liver, and can cause damage in the long term.
People are popping armodafinil, dex, and other dangerous crap all the damn time. The stuff that's safe has been backed by a few studies, but is either well-studied and scheduled tightly (modafinil--safe, not legal) or studied reasonably-well (i.e. not concrete, so not as certain, but toxicology is at least explored) and OTC legal. This leads to people mostly getting dangerous prescription drugs illegally (Modafinil aside) and abusing them, or getting understood-safe non-prescription drugs legally and having no good guidance on how to use them because their medical application hasn't actually been well-explored.
Of course, you also have the issue of drug interactions, long-term use, and so forth. Phenotropil is known pretty safe, but what are its drug interactions? What kind of effects will you get with high, long-term use, like some people do with 400mg per day doses for years? Will you start to develop psychosis after months or years, like with the other stims? We know it's absolutely safe at 100mg doses for months on end, but we don't know about 500mg doses for weeks or months or years on end; we're not even sure about 20mg doses for years on end. Even assuming drug safety, we don't know if it can chronically treat any condition or provide any benefit.
Then you have stuff like noopept that just jacks up your BNF and BDNF--which is great, but 10 minutes on a bicycle will do that. Not kidding. This is the most powerful cognitive enhancer on the market, and it's equivalent to a short jog.
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The next day, I explain to my team leader what my family does to people who get any of us into drugs, and quit. My father disapproves of the decision because he says I should also have punched the guy out after quitting.
I would have filed a claim for unemployment, then when said claim was initially denied because you quit voluntarily tell the Department of Labor why you quit. You would have doubtless been approved at that point and DOL starts an investigation of that company, a win win.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
I am reminded of candels that burn very brightly.
Yeah, but what about people like me, who cause this when under a baseline drug state? I don't even take caffeine; I used to take phenotropil, but it didn't help my work (I can see how it would, and it did help other things; having a more stable awake state is great).
I read everything that happens, constantly. I assemble all kinds of information in all kinds of ways. In effect, the human mind is a tool, and it's use requires skilled technique: geniuses don't have super brains, but rather have procedural skills for using a typical human brain. My set of tools and techniques includes methods of thinking which rapidly and effectively solve problems in the short and long term; I also tend to pile up technical information related to my job, so I can usually solve problems *while they're being explained to me*.
This is something anyone can do, but it takes effort. This is how rock star programmers work. This is how genius engineers work. They aren't born that way; they're made that way. How do you deal with the creep of people who just have more motivation and interest in their job, and so do a better job than you?
Methinks it's the obvious: 99% of people hate their job, and the remaining 1% have figured out that there is *a* job out there that's awesome, and so they quit and went and found *that* job. Those are your rock stars. They're often the people who show up when the company is a mess, fix a bunch of problems, then walk off. They're the programmers who get hired when you need to build a new system, then quit when that system goes into maintenance mode and the company stops making new things. They're the nurses and doctors who take jobs that interest them, the niche scientists doing archaeology, even global salesmen who travel all over the place to negotiate big contracts with international companies.
The rest of you need to figure out why you hate your job, what you would actually want from a job, and then go find that job. If that job burns out, find another one that satisfies you. No purple pills will take the place of that.
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says Farah. "It is not hard to imagine a supervisor telling employees that this is the standard they should aspire to in their work, however they manage to do it (hint, hint)..." How 'bout what happens when its the supervisor using the enhancing drugs and decides that everyone else needs to be just as productive as he/she is? So the underlings have to use more of the enhancements to be productive enough to get noticed and promoted while those who choose not to tweak their brain chemistry will never be able to compete and will be seen as failures or inefficient managers of their time.
even the most benign of opiates, codeine being the most benign to my knowledge, is still habit forming and comes with a whole slew of risks which is why at least in the US, it isn't used in over the counter medications.
I suggest you stop talking. What the fuck do you think loperamide (Immodium AD) is?
So, now that your ignorance has set your entire premise on fire, the only question that remains is whether you will double down on your ignorance and try to reassert the same claim.
In some ways the idea of sleep supplements is very enticing, as we could do a lot more if our bodies didn't need to rest for at least 1/3 of each day. Misusing Adderall is along a similar vein, where the purpose is to stay productive and keep your mind sharp for longer than is usually possible. If there were no negative effects this would become a common practice and acceptable, rather than an addiction that needs to be treated.
A recursive sig
Can impart wisdom and truth
Call proc signature()
I've been on and off SAM-e; but it triggers hypomania, and I've been stable for a while. Ridiculously stable. After over a year, it's still an alien feeling. I spent almost 30 years continuously depressed, and then triggered a hypomanic (and a manic!) episode, and realized I was bipolar (and in the lucky 7% that can drug-modify it with SAM-e). A year later, it just kind of leveled out, and I became... normal. Ish. It just feels weird to be dead-center.
The problem is I'm unmotivated dead-center. I noticed that when I started experimenting: I work well when I'm depressed, and I work great when I'm hypomanic; mania is horrible (feels too good, don't like it, hard to think), and being baseline is ... I don't do anything. I zone out watching twitch videos. I type nothing on a keyboard and listen to the keys click. There are things I want to do, but I just... feel fine.
I've been trying to rewrite habits, but that's not working well. I'll take up cardiovascular physical activity next--that's been delayed due to a vendor dispute which is ending in a chargeback this week.
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The advantage of Adderall over street meth is increased duration of action.
And, of course, you'll have a prescription to point to when a random drug test comes back positive for meth.
> The same goes for modafinil. Modafinil will effectively let you sleep 8 hours for every 56 awake, no toxicity and no side effects
That's funny. I took modifinil for a medical condition and there's no way it would keep me awake for 56 hours or anywhere near that. No side effects? For some (most) people but others report side effects. Also it is known to (very, very rarely) cause serious and life threatening skin conditions like Stevens-Johnson syndrome.
The effects of long term use of modifinil is unknown (except some rise in liver enzymes which probably isn't significant for the majority of populations without liver problems).
You really shouldn't jerk yourself off in public. Nobody wants to see that and you make yourself look like a jackass.
With that said, I agree with your premise. The problem is that not everyone has the talent to find their dream job. If you have to work in a sub-par environment, I see nothing wrong with impairing yourself to make it a bit more interesting. To each their own.
So let them burn out and crash. It sounds harsh and while I don't wish ill on anyone, we live in a world of consequences. There's no clearer an autonomous act than putting a pill in your mouth and swallowing. If you are so damned desperate to climb the ladder, impress the boss, get the next raise that you're willing to pump yourself full of amphetamines all the time you shouldn't be surprised at all if there are negative repercussions.
the exact same thing that happens when an alcohol fueled moron gets behind the wheel, or when any tired person gets behind the wheel, or when someone gets behind the wheel after running a marathon and the ensuing endorphin crash makes them conk out.
basically, the exact same thing a trove of other acceptable behaviors cause happens when you take a stim. the real question is why should it be illegal to take when we simply expect people who do all these other activities to not drive. A little education would assuage many of these issues.
Only if you're an idiot. Priapism is NOT something you want to experience. Best case, it's painful. Worst case is a little thing you might have heard of called gangrene. Comedians like to joke about how it's a marketing strategy, but it's definitely not.
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
Phenotropil is the only safe stimulant I've found
Define safe. How do you know that it is safe? Have there been long term studies following users over their life span? The answer is that they haven't, so you can't know that it is safe. There may be no obvious harmful short term affects; but this is not the same as safe. Cigarettes are quite safe for a very short term view.
All stimulants; including Methylphenedate and Dex at normal prescribed doses cause an increase in blood pressure and resting heart rate. Long term the research is showing us that this increases your risks for dementia and heart disease. Don't kid yourself, there is no safe stimulant.
I don't get it. I really don't.
What is there to get?
Why else do you think pharmaceutical abuse has risen so dramatically in the last 20 years or so?
Money, that is why.
Look at how much advertising there is on commercial television and on the internet for pharmaceuticals.
BigPharma has bought and paid for Congress and used the media to push its agenda of everyone having to take some kind of pill, all the time:
"Just ask your doctor".
We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
at least I saw an improvement in them while they were lightly stoned..
"lightly stoned"?
The last time anyone was lightly stoned in the US was, oh, the late 80's.
The strains of cannabis that have been developed in the last 20-30 years are VERY STRONG.
We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
Would you feel as coldly towards a person suffering diabetes? A person who needs daily finger-prick blood testing and may even require insulin injections?
We didn't get to choose our brains or our bodies, just like you didn't get to choose yours.
Besides, if I had a choice I'd naturally rather be a unicorn, just like every other sane person out there.
I know someone who has diabetes who does not (and should not drive). They have historically had trouble controlling their blood sugar properly and, as such, have had trouble remaining consciousness from time to time. No one mandated that this person not drive, but they felt like it was in the interest of safety that they not drive.
and then the worker comp attorneys come out of wood work and sue when some in a job uses drugs like this and things go bad and they end up in rehab
...or worse, someone has a psychotic reaction to over-using a stimulant and decides that he really needs to go postal...
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
Hundreds of millions of caffeine users couldn't give a shit.
Apparently you have never met any of them when they haven't had their fix yet.
It is a self-correcting problem - only the time-to-correction variable is in question.
A company that burns itself hot with drugs will find mistakes creeping into its products, workers that burn out and crash in spectacular ways, or simply see a mass exodus from its ranks and a big, fat black-mark with recruiters. It also eventually destroys productivity.
I used to work for a company whose culture could best be described as a boiler-room. No drugs were involved, yet in the space of two years, one of the sysadmins had a literal heart attack, and the lead developer and network engineer both suffered strokes - the network guy recovered fairly quickly and quit, while the developer is still, even today, trying to re-learn that whole talking thing. One of the IT managers suffered so much stress, that he eventually wound up in prison for abusing one of his kids.
Again - no performance-enhancing drugs were involved. It took the global parent company (In Germany) to step in and fix the mess, because it was destroying the company financially (due to turnover, downtime due to sloppy work caused by over-committal, etc) It took the act of publicly firing the company's CEO, a few other board members and the IT Director, and basically hitting the big corporate culture reset button. I was long gone by then (as were many others), but many of my former colleagues who remained behind tell me that things improved vastly, and the company actually has improved by quite a bit since then.
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
I vote we focus on the affects of Adderall, and exclude meth amphetamines from discussion. Is Adderall dangerous? What are the side effects?
Also, I can't seem to go down to the pharmacy to buy it, so how are people getting it, and is THAT dangerous?
Vitamin B-12 is water soluble. The supplement you take doesn't last anywhere near a week. If you take it with coffee, it probably remains in your body a couple of hours at most.
Ideology: A tool used primarily to avoid the bother of thinking.
As a software developer in my late 40's, I have no trouble concentrating. I can go long stretches without any
holy shit! a Squirrel just hopped from one branch to another outside my office window! A grey squirrel... Let me look that up on wikipedia...
dammit, DNS is down... I wonder if there's a new bind exploit? I should look it up. I'll use my phone because DNS is down.
Oh look! A text message!
whoa! There goes the squirrel again!
Phenotropil is specifically noted for its affect on neurotransmitters, without increasing heart rate or blood pressure. It is part of the racetemic group of compounds, which are the codifying compounds for nootropics; the pharmacological definition of a nootropic excludes things like gingko and vinpocetine (which are often claimed as nootropics), because it explicitly excludes anything that raises blood flow to the brain (blood pressure and heart rate increases would do this). It is specifically notable among nootropics for being a stimulant, and specifically notable among stimulants for not raising blood pressure or heart rate, as well as for not producing withdrawal or other forms of dependency.
If you want a cruder definition of "safe", I'll simply say that it's a shitton less bad than caffeine.
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For an eye-opening documentary on Methamphetamine (understanding Adderall is low dose amphetamine): "National Geographic: World's Most Dangerous Drug" (available on Netflix) In Asia it goes by "ya ba" and is used by workers to work longer hours and more shifts, to make more money. "Some say the pressure to compete has created a generation of Thai meth addicts"
It's good thing if Phenotropil doesn't affect your heart rate or blood pressure (but my comment on no-safe level of the typical ADHD drugs still stands). At the same time, you don't know what other health effects long-term usage may cause. I can't find any studies of the sort you would find for a drug that has gone through clinical trials. If this was going to fix something that was wrong, I'd view the risk as pretty moderate, but to take it to "be smarter" looks pretty dumb.
Performance enhancing drugs are a big problem in baseball and other sports. We shouldn't need to go much farther than why the Olympics ban their use to see why they should be banned in the workplace. It's all the same rat race whether you think you're making a product or "just" a victory.
I sometimes ask revealing, often ignorant-seeming questions. Maybe they're harder to answer than you think.
ADD can be accurately diagnosed with a brain scan, but those are expensive. Most people just trust the doctor instead of forking out for an MRI. Even a normal MRI may not work, you need to do a lot of mental testing during the scan, making it more expensive than the already expensive scan.
So you're recommending that we use a buffer fish overflow to get elevated?
The "problem" isn't cdwiegand's usage, dumbass. The only thing solved is one human's chemical balance. Not his wallet though, he'll have to pick somewhere with lower pay. Assuming one exists.
Legalizing human cattle prods to use on wage slaves would also self-correct itself.
From one batch of disgruntled disposables to the next. There's always someone more desperate.
Your argument was effectively "it must do something bad! It's a stim! They make your heart asplode!", so I shot the specific. You've reduced it to, "Well it must hurt SOMEHOW," which is the same fallacy as the trade-off concept.
The trade-off concept is the familiar idea that you can't improve something by making it worse in every way. I usually address this by smashing a beverage vessel such that it no longer holds a beverage, and is perhaps laden with dangerous jagged edges, and deformed so as to take up more storage space. It is obviously possible to adjust something to be worse in every way, up to and including creatively destroying the object's entire useful purpose while making it a burden and a danger.
I did suggest that scientific studies were minimal, and that they gave a good risk outline with empirical evidence but did not give a complete and high-quality scientific image. The problems caused by amphetamines, methylphenedate, and caffeine are obvious, and stand out strikingly; we have enough empirical evidence to show that phenotropil carries none of the negative consequences of these drugs, and nothing notable on its own (upset stomach, for example, can happen--that can also happen with Rolaids, cough syrup, or Diet Coke). We've also seen no notable long-term consequences, despite there being obvious long-term public users--which gives a low but existent measure of confidence.
I am, in fact, quantifying within reason, using a number of data sources of varying quality. I do the same with prescription drugs believed to be safe; hell, I do the same with the belief that fat and salt are bad for you, and now science is reflecting what I've been actively considering for years: that the science behind the original claims was weak and, in some cases, totally invalid (saturated fat dietary concerns were based on cherry-picked data). I don't have 100% confidence in anything, but I do have enough confidence in various measures and observations to scale them against one another.
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I was taking the smallest dose of generic Adderall, and after a few years, I suddenly got some of the side-effects. I didn't need it for everyday living, just certain classes that I found hard to concentrate in. Even then, Adderall made it worse because a simple distraction could leave me 100% focused on something non-class related. At least with my normal ADD, I could be distracted from my distraction, not so much when taking Adderall.
Adderall was horrible for my ability to problem solve. I find that strong concentration negatively affects my ability to solve unique complex problems, but it does help for simple issues that have a simple and definite answer.
and then the worker comp attorneys come out of wood work and sue when some in a job uses drugs like this and things go bad and they end up in rehab
Indeed. Which sounds like a horribly inefficient (not to mention downright dangerous) way to run a society.
You will not drink with us, but you would taste our steel? - Walter Matthau, The Pirates
It's ever man's dream to have a large blood clot in their penis.
Your argument was effectively "it must do something bad! It's a stim! They make your heart asplode!", so I shot the specific. You've reduced it to, "Well it must hurt SOMEHOW," which is the same fallacy as the trade-off concept.
No, my argument was that anything that increases your blood pressure and/or your heart rate is bad. I made the mistake in assuming that this specific drug also did this, and I'm happy to accept being wrong on this point. The rest of my argument is that you can't claim something is safe over the long term (lifetime) without actually studying it over a lifetime. You may have convinced yourself that the risks are minimal, but without even clinical trials, I find it hard to be so confident.
No, my argument was that anything that increases your blood pressure and/or your heart rate is bad.
Like exercise?
I would have filed a claim for unemployment, then when said claim was initially denied because you quit voluntarily tell the Department of Labor why you quit. You would have doubtless been approved at that point and DOL starts an investigation of that company, a win win.
More likely, the arbitrator would not have believed you and rejected your appeal. Maybe after the DOL investigation, assuming they manage to confirm your accusation, you could appeal again.
Don't try to out wierd me, three-eyes. I get stranger things than you, free with my breakfast cereal. --Zaphod Beeblebr
I'm an Italian working in the US... from my perspective, Americans are a bit weird on violence. They are very big on gun rights, but if two kids get into a fistfight at school, it's treated as a crime rather than as the natural consequence of cooping up male teenagers in a building for hours on end (And nobody cares about who started the fight, which would be the first thing to figure out back home, to decide who gets punished). Then again I guess that Americans living in Italy think that we're weird for not allowing people to own guns unless they live out in the country and hunt, but treating fistfights as "something that happens" rather than a public safety problem.
Liberty - Security - Laziness - Pick any two.
A social worker friend of mine said that Ritalin was a _diagnostic_ drug. If you had ADD symptoms and they went away with Ritalin, then you had ADD. IF the symptoms didn't go away, you had something else. I thought that was interesting and weird, but if you think about it, actually useful too in a backasswards kind of way.
In my experience (New York State) they tend to side with the employee at the first level of appeal. If the employer contests that decision it goes before an administrative law judge, where anything can happen, though even there they tend to favor the employee in this blue state.
I quit a job once upon a time and secured unemployment. The employer attempted to retroactively impose random drug testing, I asked for an opt-out since it wasn't part of the conditions of employment when I was hired, they said no. I cited the applicable case law with HR, they still said no, so I quit. Won that one at both levels of appeal, found a new job three weeks later, started it two weeks after that, using the interim to take a nice vacation to Finland on the ex-employer's dime. I may have sent them an unsigned post card from Helsinki saying thanks for 50% of the salary for 0% of the work.....
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
name names, or keep your story to yourself.
I do not think people who rely on medication like Adderall or antidepressants should be allowed to drive.
IDK about anti-depressants, but *news flash* speed actually improves concentration, which is very helpful in driving. I mean, why do you think people use it to study? It's a common misconception that all euphoria-producing drugs impair, as does alcohol. That's simply not true.
Of course, there is a kind of puritanism, particularly in the US, which is reflexively "anti-drug" when those drugs also produce any kind of euphoria. Much like masturbation is seen as self-abuse, any enjoyment of drugs is seen as drug-abuse.
-- sudon't
Air-ride Equipped
You may be surprised to learn that diabetics taking insulin are prohibited from driving commercial vehicles (trucks). Though, not because of the insulin per se, of course.
Barbiturates are quite different than speed. Certain drugs do cause impairment, barbiturates and tranquilizers being right at the top of that list, while others don't. Opiates, like morphine, etc., do not cause impairment, though they can make some people drowsy. Stimulants do not. One would think this obvious, considering the uses they are put to.
-- sudon't
Air-ride Equipped
The other guy who was not taking any drugs was named Vincent. I went by my middle initial at the time ( K ).
Liberty - Security - Laziness - Pick any two.
My Dr told me if "normal" people took Adderall, they typically felt energetic, while ADD people have a calming effect.
"I suppose I have a problem with the idea of competing with someone that is using a "performance enhancing" drug,"...A person should not have to take drugs to perform at a "normal" level
If the drug has negative side effects, you'll not be competing with them long. Steady and stable wins the race in employment.
If the drug does not have negative side effects, I don't mind it being essentially required. Because then what's the problem? Some jobs require steel-toe boots which can be uncomfortable but useful.
I do realize comparing a safety feature to something that just lets you work longer is a little but of a mismatch, but then some jobs like construction use safety measures like that as a fallback to push workers harder also because there will not be as much death and maiming as there might have been.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I struggle enough with caffeine and the negative effects of trying to keep intake manageable that I can't imagine how bad an addictive substance with much worse withdrawal symptoms would be.
Start drinking decaf.
No crashes, no 'needing a cup of coffee' (you don't, it's addict bullshit), no dehydration yet still be able to regularly enjoy warm tasteful beverages (more often even, as you also lose the 'I already.had x cups today' and 'I need to sleep in an hour' crap).
I switched a year ago and have not looked back. The only time I think about the effects of caffeine on me is when I feel supershitty and tired and remember that I had a cup of regular coffee two hours before that.
The placebo effect is strong with this one (well GP).
Most vitamins and herbal remedies (ahem, and homeopathy) have little direct benefit unless your body is actually deficient. I know tons of people who sear that a taking 10,000mcg of vitamin c will cure a cold or stop it from happening. I also know there's no legitimate research study showing that's the case...and plenty of evidence, if you go digging, to show where the vitamin supplement market was basically made up out of thin air.
You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
OMG ur so cool for knowing that.
I'm so glad your opinion doesn't matter.
If its use becomes that widespread and remains successful then I guess it isn't as bad as the puritans are saying, right?
First I ever saw of massive doses of Vitamin C allegedly curing illnesses was Linus Pauling, back in the early 70s. Pauling won a Nobel prize in chemistry, and was very influential in the field. When his book came out, I mentioned it to some chemistry students, who said that the department had talked about it and come to the conclusion that the old man had finally cracked. I've seen no evidence that Pauling was influenced by the supplement industry.
The vitamin supplement market didn't make up the Vitamin C nonsense, but they sure ran with it.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Suppose you're so damn desperate to stay on the ladder (even if it involves losing a step or two), impress the boss enough to avoid getting fired, and avoid the worst of the next pay cut, that you're willing to sacrifice your health in the long term in order to support your family.
If employers demand ever higher performance, and drugs help, the entire work force is in danger of being forced onto various drugs. Either you shorten your expected lifespan by twenty years, or you get fired and, if you find another job, it's the same old crap. If anybody ever calls an employer on it, the employer will point proudly to their no-illegal-drugs policy and blame the workers for the drugs they have to take to keep a job.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
"Anti-depressants" covers a lot of different drugs, with varying side effects. I wouldn't take Trazodone and jump in the car (that's a strictly bedtime drug), but many others don't impair driving at all. (Untreated depression has made me a worse driver; but now that I'm on a treatment program that involves drugs my insurance agent has come to consider me a very safe driver;) It is possible to have a normal life while on antidepressants if no misguided or malicious schemers get any legislation passed to make it even harder on seriously depressed people.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Depends on the long-range effects. If a drug improves performance while reducing average lifespan by twenty years, is it as bad as the puritans are saying?
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
First point, it's HIPAA.
Second point, it's not as if the boss checks the drug records of employees and only promotes those known to be on performance-enhancing drugs. The boss looks at performance, ignores any drug use, and promotes the one using the performance-enhancing drug because they're more effective than the employees who aren't using.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Amphetamines will help anyone out. They are like smart pills. They help you focus like a laser. The US Air Force give them to their pilots so they can loiter on station longer. I just read that the FDA approved vyvanse (Another type or Ritlin) to cut down on binge eating. I think I'll stop by my doctor's office and get me a fist full. Here is to increased productivity because sleep is way overrated. Besides I'll have an eternity to sleep when I'm dead !!!
Paul E. Bahre
I respectfully disagree that chomping on meth is a standard practice everywhere. And, honestly, what you're mostly describing is the hedonic treadmill. If you have to take amphetamines just to keep pace then you're likely in some ultra high pressure job. Get out. If it means taking a pay cut and moving to a smaller place then so be it. In the end your children will do better having a healthy father around than they will being shuttled off to violin/dance/soccer/drama class every day while Dad palpitates at work, awaiting his final heart attack.
Ok, Because I have zero idea what Immodium does, (other than whet it is labelled for-) WTF? Why? What?
Your Moon, Your Mission, Get involved! http://www.openluna.org
The world is not as you state it (and as far as I know the people in the ultra high pressure jobs use cocaine, not amphetamines). Not yet.
The question is whether it will go that way. If performance-enhancing drugs start getting popular at lower levels, there's a danger that they will become mandatory. What if I could suddenly program twice as fast with no lack of quality? That would be cool. I'd do even better on my annual reviews. What if everybody else did and I didn't? That wouldn't be cool, unless I could also join them. Should I then give up on being a software developer, if I can't keep up except by dying early? I can take a pay cut and still live pretty well, but how far down will the pressure go?
My son benefited from having his father around a lot, although I wasn't all that healthy when he was young (unrelated issue). He also benefited from the fact that we had a stimulating environment to start with, and we were able to give him some good opportunities because we did have money to spend. (For example, there was a great summer program that wasn't cheap. He got a lot of good out of it.) At some point of income, I'd have to dig my heels in and insist that I wasn't going lower, no matter what it meant for my long-term health.
Prostitution is a similar sort of thing. My attitude is that I don't care what consenting adults do in private, including not caring about any financial arrangements. However, I don't want prostitution to be forced on people, because it could be really bad for many of them. As long as it's illegal, there's a way to resist much of the pressure to do it. Make it legal, and there's no legal resistance. Welfare moms, or unemployed people, are often required to take any reasonable job offer or lose their benefits. If the only offer is as a clerk-typist, the mom is going to become a clerk-typist (if qualified). If the only offer is to work in a brothel, what the mom has to do depends on whether prostitution is legal or not.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
I've always seen my highest productivity when I feel rested, relaxed, and creative. I love Saturday mornings. Knowledge work is not manual labor where you get things done faster just by putting your back into it longer and harder. Programming is the easiest part of the whole mess we call software development. If it's not, you're doing something wrong. Being able to stop and back up and reassess when you start to put in excessive effort is by far the best, and sometimes the hardest thing to do, and you're not going to do that on Adderall.
People, in general, like two things:
1) Instant results
2) The feeling that bad things are not their own fault in the least
So if someone has a stressful work life, rather than admit that they have a bad job and get out they try to get drugs to dull the stress. It's easier and offers cognitive disassociation.
Which is not to say that everyone taking such medication is taking the easy way and don't actually need it. Personally, I'm on my fifth anti-depressant medication regimen (which is actually a combination of two meds I tried in the past individually), have briefly visited a psych ward in the past, and seen a handful of therapists/counselors. There is nothing majorly wrong in my life, I just hate myself indiscriminately without the medication (with the medication I only somewhat hate myself.)
People, in general, like two things: 1) Instant results
This I get. and this you will get instant results from these kinds of meds. When they first came out on the market, they pushed them for depression. Granted, they work great for that. We have, however, since then realized there are better ways to deal with the situation. So now we give people SSRI's because they're generally "safer" and less addictive (Don't let anyone tell you that the withdrawal doesn't suck, though. Back off them slowly...) The downside is that the SSRI's take a while (4-6 weeks) for full effectiveness if you're going to get any results from that particular agent at all.
2) The feeling that bad things are not their own fault in the least
So if someone has a stressful work life, rather than admit that they have a bad job and get out they try to get drugs to dull the stress. It's easier and offers cognitive disassociation.
This one needs to be smashed with a stick and nuked from orbit. No it's no all your fault (at least I hope it's not), but people need to learn personal responsibility in this world. I think that's the general sentiment around here, though, so no need to preach to the choir.
Which is not to say that everyone taking such medication is taking the easy way and don't actually need it. Personally, I'm on my fifth anti-depressant medication regimen (which is actually a combination of two meds I tried in the past individually), have briefly visited a psych ward in the past, and seen a handful of therapists/counselors. There is nothing majorly wrong in my life, I just hate myself indiscriminately without the medication (with the medication I only somewhat hate myself.)
I'm no psychiatrist and I've never met you, so I can't diagnose you. I am, however, glad that you're getting help from at least one. That sounds like it fits the bill for Major Depressive Disorder. The good news is that there are A LOT of options. The bad news is that sometimes it can take a while to find one that sticks. The interesting thing about a lot of those drugs is that in addition to taking the taking a bit of the edge off the depression is that they increase the plasticity of the brain. So, combined with Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, they can help change the way you think about yourself. If you find that the medication alone just isn't cutting it and you're not already getting CBT, I would ask your doctor to recommend a therapist. Regardless, good luck with it and I hope you do find some kind of therapy (pharmaceutical or otherwise) that works.
Thanks for the kind words. I've actually seen a therapist for a handful of sessions late last year/early this year, and he did help me with some coping mechanisms. However, the appts were $250/visit and we plateaued in progress, so at my suggestion he agreed that I stop the regular meetings. I can go back to him if I feel I need it, which I might do later this year to see if we can move things any further.
I was diagnosed with "Clinical" depression in college; the rest visits have me listed as "severe depression", I think. Major Depressive Disorder sounds familiar, but I'd have to go through my various forms to see what the exact diagnosis was.
No problem. It sucks to see people suffer.
Anyway, I just thought I'd clarify that Major Depressive Disorder essentially is clinical depression. It's the heading that the DSM-V (psych bible) puts continued depression of greater than two weeks. You might have heard the term unipolar depression as well. That just means that there are no manic states associated with the patient. Unless you're a nervous person by nature (think you're going to get every side effect and complication) it's probably worth your time to read up on your condition a bit. Increased health literacy is associated with improved outcomes.