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New Test Supports NASA's Controversial EM Drive
An anonymous reader writes: Last year, NASA's advanced propulsion research wing made headlines by announcing the successful test of a physics-defying electromagnetic drive, or EM drive. Now, this futuristic engine, which could in theory propel objects to near-relativistic speeds, has been shown to work inside a space-like vacuum. NASA Eagleworks made the announcement quite unassumingly via NASASpaceFlight.com. The EM drive is controversial in that it appears to violate conventional physics and the law of conservation of momentum; the engine, invented by British scientist Roger Sawyer, converts electric power to thrust without the need for any propellant by bouncing microwaves within a closed container. So, with no expulsion of propellant, there’s nothing to balance the change in the spacecraft’s momentum during acceleration.
I want a non-Newtonian drive as much as any other nerd out there, but it's still more probable that (assuming it works) it uses conventional physics, just in ways they haven't figured out yet.
That said, I think this result is the point where NASA, DOD, Lockheed Martin, Boeing et al should turn on the money spigot for research. There's obviously something going on, even if it's just conventional physics in unexpected ways. And on the odd chance it *is* new physics, the results could change the world.
They've gone into plaid?
Well the tests keep showing the damn thing works! Maybe it's just magic. Works based on fairies flying out of an engineer's butt, or something. Hopefully it doesn't break the universe :-/
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Let's see: we can violate conservation of momentum by invoking some sort of vaguely defined quantum woo. Riiiight. Where do I send my check?
The practical result says that it works anyway.
I suspect that there is a balance in physics somewhere... just that no one knows where or what that is yet.
I am kind of curious though - does it have the acceleration curve of a VASMIR/Ion engine, or can we build something with it that will give greater speed in less time?
(...also, is the acceleration graph linear, curved sharply in either direction, hits a curve at a certain point... what?)
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
Actually, the test shows that is not fairies flying out of the engineer's butt, but rather invisible unicorns pushing the unit. Those tricky magical bastards....
I suspect that there is a balance in physics somewhere... just that no one knows where or what that is yet.
This.
Just because we can't see the balance doesn't mean it isn't there.
This might be another Cold Fusion moment. Or, it might be the start of something very interesting.
When an experiment contradicts a theory, there are two possibilities: (1) there's something wrong with the experiment; or (2) there's something wrong with the theory. If the correct answer is (1), then it's par for the course: mistakes happen, and the process of science corrects them eventually. But if the correct answer is (2) then it's cork-popping time, because you have discovered new science.
If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
If nobody knows how it works, how did the guy invent it?
Just like penicillin.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
That is what peer review, replication of results and further study are for...and I am biting my lip not to add "dumbass" to the end of that sentence.
And BTW: those things are already happening. Other scientists are critiquing (constructively rather than your sort of nonsense) and others are carrying out new experiments in the same and novel situations to eliminate confounds. You know, the scientific world doing what they do.
What I find absolutely amazing here (apart from the *potential* discovery) is how everyone is more interested in bagging on the science than commenting on how this might be a major breakthrough after NASA (FFS) has been confirming the results.
Yes, it may not be as it is. But it is also WAAY too early to cry foul.
Some days the internet its like watching a tribe of chimps...
They say one of the limiting factors (aside from violating the laws of physics) is the political will to launch a large nuclear power plant into space. The solution is obvious: use Cold Fusion to power the EM drive. There is great efficiency here because they can get two Nobel prizes with only one gadget.
We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are.
-- Anais Nin
If two magnets get close enough and snap together are they violating conservation of momentum when forces are acting on them to accelerate toward each other?
Of course not. The total momentum of the system stays zero.
When I was a kid, I tried to make a self-propelled car by putting magnets on the back and front bumpers of a toy car, reasoning that the front magnet would attract the back one, and therefore produce thrust. When I built it, I learned a valuable lesson: it doesn't work. Because the force pulling the back magnet forward is exactly counterbalanced by the force pulling the front magnet backward.
The EM drive is closely analagous to this idea. Except that they didn't figure out when they were eight that this will never work.
A lovely summary from the Physics StackExchange which sums up my thoughts:
"The initial tests were at atmospheric pressure. To test the fan hypothesis, an easy way is to vary the pressure, another easy way is to put dust in the air to see the air-currents. The experimenters didn't do any of this (or at least didn't publish it if they did), instead, they ran the device inside a vacuum chamber but at ambient pressure after putting it through a vacuum cycle to simulate space. This is not a vacuum test, but it can mislead one on a first read.
In response to criticism of this faux-vacuum test, they did a second test in a real vacuum. This time, they used a torsion pendulum to find a teeny-tiny thrust of no relation to the first purported thrust. The second run in vacuum has completely different effects, possibly due to interactions between charge building up on the device and metallic components of the torsion pendulum, possibly due to deliberate misreporting by these folks, who didn't bother to explain what was going on in the first experiments they hyped up. Since they didn't bother to do a any systematic analysis of the effect on the first run, to vary air-pressure, look at air flows with dust, whatever, or if they did this they didn't bother to admit their initial error, this is not particularly honest experimental work, and there's not much point in talking about it any more. These folks are simply wasting people's time."
http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/23725/is-the-emdrive-or-relativity-drive-possible
In conclusion, they did a really really bad experiment and got a bad result. Wow!
More like tests keep showing that it IS working, and nobody is sure why. Either the problem is with the test, or there's something else happening that we don't understand, but either way, nobody is sure yet what's going on.
I think it's likely that the test is faulty, but they need to figure out why or how the test is faulty.
Area man refuses to accept that something was demonstrated by a scientific experiment can possibly be true - insists that his knowledge of science as an 8 year old was more advanced than that of actual actual specialized scientists.
That's just silly. The people reporting this observable phenomenon do not claim to understand why this happens - in fact the point of the article is that we should strive to understand why this works.
Just because YOU don't understand why this works doesn't mean that they are claiming to be violating the conservation of momentum - especially since they are not. Most especially because there's a clear expenditure of input energy - a grossly inefficient (it would seem) one.
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If I were to peer-review a paper on this, I would insist on a plausible physical explanation for the claimed measurement. The burden of proof is on them: they are making a truly extraordinary claim, one that, if true, would entail revising all of physics from its very foundation.
When somebody sounds like a total fucking crackpot, they almost always are.
You might have missed high temp super conductivity entirely then. The phenomenon was measured and replicated in many labs - but it was at least a few years before any plausible theory came out - and 20 years on we do not have firm agreement on the cause.
Or, rather than all of physics being wrong, maybe they have an erroneous measurement setup.
That doesn't mean you shouldn't investigate anomalous measurements. But at this stage you shouldn't be writing fluff pieces with page after page of how much your new technology will change spaceflight. You should be publishing a paper with a name like "Measurement of anomalous thrust in a microwave apparatus operated in a hard vacuum" and trying to avoid the media insomuch as possible - and when you need to talk with them, trying to explain "we don't know what's going on... we have some theories but they're controversial... we need to do more testing." etc.
Sigur RÃs: I didn't know that Heaven had a rock band.
If you learn of an alleged unusual phenomenon, and you have an immediate rigid response, please stay away from science. Go into religion or politics. The only appropriate response is "Hmmm interesting, let's look into this". Human knowledge is always provisional. Careless, absolute, knowledge claims are the currency of religion.
Nope, they're not. It's generating three orders of magnitude more thrust than would be generated merely by the momentum of emitted microwaves.
So it's powered by a typical Comcast bill
Table-ized A.I.
The expulsion (should that not be expulsion or something?) are micro waves ...
hence the name: EM drive.
What you are describing is a photon drive where photons are the propellant. But the fine article explains:
After consistent reports of thrust measurements from EM Drive experiments in the US, UK, and China -- at thrust levels several thousand times in excess of a photon rocket, and now under hard vacuum conditions -- the question of where the thrust is coming from deserves serious inquiry.
The reason I don't believe it is real is the same reason I don't believe cold fusion is real. They put in metric ton-loads of energy and measure a very small effect. They say they will need to increase the efficiency by many orders of magnitude to create a practical device. I say they probably made a mistake somewhere and the tiny effect they measured is either noise or due to something else they haven't yet accounted for.
We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are.
-- Anais Nin
So you're one of the swags that believes all physics is right? Puh-leeze lets make up some more shit like dark matter an dark energy to make it so!
Any time you have an assumption based on physical laws, it must be able to be tested and measured and accounted for and predicted, and if the prediction based on those physical "laws" differs from what is observed, one must first, check their math for errors, check their method of measurement and if all of that checks out to be accurate to ask questions along the lines of: "What are the implications of what we have observed and measured and verified here?" or as Einstein asked "What would the universe be like if it operates the way we have observed it to here?" This is what allows science to side step conundrums based on incorrect assumptions and asking poorly worded questions that lead research astray and into asking the "Wrong questions". Before Einstein, the question was "Why does light always seem to be moving the same speed regardless of the point of view or movement of the observer with respect to that light, when we know that it can't?" That is a poorly worded question, because it assumes that what we know, but that we are unable to use to explain what we observe is correct, when it is likely it is not correct. This is why I hate the term "Laws of Physics" because it implies that they way we understand the universe is the way it operates, when these "Laws" are just our shorthand for documenting and understanding what we observe. This is also not to imply that when someone says "This breaks the laws of physics!" that they are pulling a James Dean, rebel attitude and getting something for nothing, it really, most likely means someone does not fully understand the thing they are dealing with and some corrections will be needed to science books of the future. As HAL9000 said in 2001, A Space Odyssey, "The problem can only be attributable to human error."
You might want to look at this nice summary from Reddit of all the experiments performed in China and at NASA about these drives:
The FACTS as we currently know them about the EmDrive and Cannae Drive
How come Slashdot never gets Slashdotted?
That is pretty close to what is going on.
There are now several experiments which confirm the production of thrust, many efforts to falsify the results, and a few efforts to come up with a theory which explains what we are seeing. There may be another test or two on the ground, but the first real space trial is likely coming soon. The only real way to be sure is to launch one and measure the dv.
I had the same thought they did initially, which is that convection of air was responsible for their thrust. That will not happen in vacuum, so that idea is right out.
This is a very promising experimental result, following several other very promising experimental results from different labs. I would say there is now serious evidence that this works, or at least that there is more to it than we can easily explain given our current understanding of physics.
I'm a signature virus. Please copy me to your signature so I can replicate.
Difference:
Pons and Fleischmann announce, others try to reproduce, fail.
vs.
British engineer announces, China tries to reproduce and succeeds, NASA tries to reproduce and succeeds. Supposedly BAE Systems, EADS Astrium, Siemens and the IEE have also gotten positive results.
Of course, there is still a lot of work to be done to see if it isn't some other effect contaminating the data.
On the actual surface of Alpha Centauri? Probably not.
Note that this is the fifth experiment so far that has reproduced the effect (and every new experiment tries to account for some explanation that could possibly invalidate the previous one; e.g. for the last one, they ran it in vacuum).
Wrong.
Conservation of linear momentum is most certainly NOT derived from Thermodynamics.
Conservation of linear momentum is a mathematical consequence of translational symmetry - in other words, momentum is conserved if the laws of physics are invariant in space. Similarly, angular momentum is conserved if the laws of physics are invariant by rotation.
Leaving aside the fact that light has momentum and therefore is sufficiently "physical" a propellant for this example, and the fact that this thing produces orders of magnitudes more thrust than a few Watts worth of photons could impart, you're still missing a really key problem:
You can impart momentum on a mirror by shining a flashlight on it, but you can't impart momentum on a sealed box by having a lit flashlight *inside* it!
The EmDrive uses a sealed cavity. There's nowhere for any propellant to come out, even if there were any!
There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
There are several medications doctors prescribe although they and even the researchers that invented them don't how or why they work.
Its not easy to measure 50 micro-newtons of force when you change a power level by 50 watts.
Currents cause magnetic forces. Things get hot and outgas producing thrust. RF power cables get hot and distort causing a force.
Think about it. The device weighs something like 5Kilos. That is 50 newtons gravitational force. So a 1 micro-radian tilt will cause a 50 micro-newton force. Walking across the lab floor could cause that amount of deflection. If the chamber is 1 meter across, a 0.1 degree temperature change on one side of the chamber (from a nearby power supply) could cause that much tilt.
There of course could be force just from photons - but that is a simple and well understood photon drive - known for at least 50 years now - basically a light-sail.
This is a very difficult experiment to do correctly, and they have not published in enough detail.
Meanwhile: conservation of momentum has been tested under conditions ranging from ultra-cold gas atoms to 100GeV particle collisions, to orbiting neutron stars. The RF fields they use are very modest. At SLAC we run hundreds of megawatts, not 50 watts. We have superconducting cavities where we easily see the deflection caused by the momentum in the microwave fields - operating at many thousands of times higher power than this experiment - we see nothing unexpected.
So: Difficult experiment. No unusual physical conditions. Apparent violation of one of the most carefully tested conservation laws in all of science.
It it literally more likely that the sun will not rise tomorrow (since that is also based on conservation of momentum) than that this experiment was correct.
Conservation of linear momentum is a mathematical consequence of translational symmetry - in other words, momentum is conserved if the laws of physics are invariant in space. Similarly, angular momentum is conserved if the laws of physics are invariant by rotation.
And energy is conserved if the system is invariant over a translation in time.
Hooray for Emmy Noether.
If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.