Slashdot Mirror
Statues of Assange, Snowden and Manning Go Up In Berlin
HughPickens.com writes: RT Times reports that Alexanderplatz square in Berlin has become the stage for a provocative art piece which celebrates whistleblowers and encourages ordinary citizens to speak out. "They have lost their freedom for the truth, so they remind us how important it is to know the truth," says sculptor Davide Dormino. The life-sized statues of the three whistleblowers stand upon three chairs, as if speaking in an impromptu public meeting. Next to them is a fourth, empty chair. "The fourth chair is open to anyone here in Berlin who wants to get up and say anything they want," says the artist. Dormino, who came up with the idea together with the US journalist Charles Glass, specifically chose a classical bronze statue for his depiction – and not an installation or abstract piece – since statues are usually made of establishment figures. According to Domino while men who order others to their deaths get immortalized, those who resist are often forgotten, so "the statue pays homage to three who said no to war, to the lies that lead to war and to the intrusion into private life that helps to perpetuate war." Activists and members of Germany's Green party unveiled the life-size bronze statues on May Day.
I'm serious about this. Unless we actually have made societal changes based on what they've done, making monuments to them is stupid. Or, is all we want a pretend society?
So you don't believe the statues exist?
No matter what you agree with what Manning and/or Snowden and/or Assange have done, no one can deny that they are ordinary folks, just like you and me
What makes them special is the system
What I mean is, if the supposingly ' Democratic System ' that we have is truly democratic, that the system would never do despicable things it accuses THE OTHER SIDE (them 'Commies') of doing, such as Trampling on human rights, violating the Constitution, spying on its own citizens, and so on, neither Manning, Assange nor Snowden would have any reason to do what they have done
It is The System which makes them what they are --- Because The System has become so goddamn rotten that the three ordinary folks had no choice but to tell the truth
I have tried to imagine what I would do, given the same circumstance ... and the only honest thing I can say is, I simply do not have the guts to do what they did ... yes, I have yet to grow my own pair
Dammit, once again the Europeans give Obama undeserved recognition!
Even if it's the RT which came out with that article no one can deny the goddamn ROT of the Western governments
If the Western, supposedly DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENTS weren't doing so much rotting stuffs, you think Manning or Snowden or Assange would have anything to show us?
You are nothing but a pathetic troll!
Isn't it? Building monuments to these guys now before determining the historical significance of their actions seems premature. What's changed, really? We're more knowledgeable about the things that Snowden, et al. revealed, but whether that knowledge has, or is going to, lead to a major paradigm shift about ubiquitous surveillance and its inherent conflict with our notions of free society has yet to be played out. Those guys are just footnotes right now.
Manning's name isn't "Bradley Chelsea Manning", it's Chelsea Manning. And depicting her as a male is just lack of respect. She doesn't need that kind of support, and much less from Putin TV.
For my front lawn?
"Activists and members of Germany's Green party unveiled the life-size bronze statues on May Day."
...depicting Manning as a male while s(he) asked to be considered as a female, standing next to the fugitive suspect for the rape of a female mister Assange, between a transexual and mister Snowden who is protected by a goverment declaring that homosexuals are not welcomed...
Even i, a right-wing Greek, couldn't plan it better! Don't you just love our left-wing Europeans?
Antisthenes: "Wisdom begins by examining the words/names." - excuse my English, i am (slightly...) better with my Greek!
US: Gawd damned Nazi's idolizing traitors!
Germany: Nazi's? Pot/Kettle?
I am sad to say that a look inside the US reveals that it has become some of the key elements in the monster it so vigilantly took down in WWII.
So the German Green Party could find no German whistleblowers to honor? That's a statement all it's own. All come from the family tree of the British Empire.
Freedom Fries all over again eh? Pathetic.
War Resisters Remain in Canada with No Regrets
Many opponents of the Vietnam war fled to Canada rather than face conscription, "An estimated 125,000 Americans fled to Canada in the 1960s and '70s to avoid the Vietnam War military draft, according to the American Veterans of Foreign Wars" according to the article
The town of Nelson planned to build a memorial to these folks, who once they settled into Canada became exemplary citizens and active participants in their communities.
The flood of hate mail from the USA caused them to reconsider.
If your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd murder you in your sleep
Slashdot's feeding the Russian propaganda sites now?
Why not, most newspapers here in the US feed US propaganda. They don't report the true news or else they omit what is really going on. Just look at the NY Times in the leadup to the Iraq war, they help Cheny/Bush go to war for non-existent weapons of mass destruction. Look at the mess we're in now. We're recruiting terrorists like mad now. We're really hated by lots of folks. Just because of our wanting to take Iraq oil.
Of the Denver Broncos? Or Eli Manning of the New York Giants? Cool.
"They have lost their freedom for the truth, so they remind us how important it is to know the truth,"
This coming from a country notorious for its media censorship in more ways than one.
I vote for Nobel Peace Prize for Assange, Manning and Snowden.
Anything less is giving in to trolls in government and their abuse of a republic and its good intentions.
Why do people insist on conflating Snowden's patriotic actions with the well-meaning but naively harmful actions of Assange and [wo]Manning?!
According to the article,
Perhaps it is just a poor choice of words by the author, but 'guise' has connotations of being "a way of looking that is not true or real". Manning is truely male, in the sense that he has a Y chromosome.
These are monuments representing those who would SPEAK THE TRUTH. It doesn't matter what your opinions are regarding these truths. These men all did great services for people of the world. Their actions go well beyond US borders.
All they have done is tell the truth, the truth does hurt when the government has done pretty much everything else but play it straight since the 50's. They still fail to realize the course that put this country on, and that only serves to prove the people are not being represented. Some blame US business for buying out the politicians, it however was the politicians that sold us out, sold out our jobs and eventually lead to selling themselves out with the government having to print money every six months to keep the governments doors open. Somehow I think they believe the corporations will bail them out on the bottom line but why would they bother when they have already moved the jobs they provided over seas while also importing H1B visa candidates at half price, and cheated unemployment statistical data. Selling "futures" becomes pretty expensive when counted against the bottom line.
Russia Today is quite literally government controlled and run propaganda. Can you honestly make that claim about the US media?
At a first glance maybe not, US media is controlled by big corporations, the oligarchy controlling them, and their interests, serving only their propaganda. But then again it is corporations and their interests that run the government as well. So... yes?
Easily. It doesn't have to be the same
Government, corporation, what's the difference? Mass media is controlled by powerful organizations, looking after their best interests. Yes, the same claim can be made about US, and global media. They all have the exact same purpose, though US media has better entertainment value, which is why it will remain more successful than most. The Simpsons rule, man!
She doesn't look like a woman. I guess they didn't want that information to get out.
haha nice troll.
Slashdot's feeding the Russian propaganda sites now?
The source is questionable in many ways, and well known to be a Russian government mouthpiece.
But the same material was available elsewhere in German and international media with all the same opinion slants.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
Why do people insist on conflating Snowden's patriotic actions with the well-meaning but naively harmful actions of Assange and [wo]Manning?!
This.
TFS even states:
"the statue pays homage to three who said no to war, to the lies that lead to war"
What about the lie that Assange AND Manning both told to jump-start their egos? That is, the "collateral murder" video which was anything but murder. Assange himself later even admitted that they essentially lied about it. For those who don't know, it was the first piece released to wikileaks, and it was attempting to paint a narrative that US soldiers just casually and routinely openly fire on unarmed civilians. However if you examine the video, you can clearly see the people being fired at carrying weapons (specifically, an RPG and some sort of Kalashnikov.)
in front of the U.S embassy.
Statues erected to promote freedom of speech and tell people they should not be afraid to say when there is something going wrong are considered "provocative".
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
FTFY. If it had anything at all to do with rape, the Swedish government would have taken Assange up on his offer to return to the country if they promised not to hand him over to the U.S. they way they did to Mohammed al-Zari. They never have.
Are you a recent national socialist, or does it run in your family?
Dude, think again. Kissinger has one. Obama has one. The EU has one. Giving one to Assange, Manning and Snowden sends the wrong signal, they're not crooks.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Their actions go well beyond US borders.
Yep, Assange and Manning put the lives of many activists and resisters at risk all around the world by outing them.
I'm not worried at all if Assange/Manning "hurt" governments. But I'm *outraged* that they put the lives of people resisting repressive and violent regimes at risk by publishing their names and actions. If all they had done was whistle blowing against governments I would laud them, as I do Snowden.
If it had anything at all to do with rape, the Swedish government would have taken Assange up on his offer to return to the country if they promised
Assange had no legal right to bargain with the Swedish authorities; the Swedish legal system precludes the prosecutors from striking the kind of deals Assange proposed. Assange obviously knew that - his whole act was for dramatic effect, not for any tangible benefit.
Long story short, Assange duped you.
Catalin Braescu
Ofaly.com
i fucking hate mobile
Germany should be more concerned about its own domestic spying programs, the massive data collection by the German government, and the widespread restrictions on free speech and free exercise of religion in Germany.
While you might say that perhaps putting up statues to US whistleblowers might encourage Germans to do the same thing, in reality, this is just an outgrowth from a widespread political effort in German (and similarly other European countries) to distract people from domestic problems by pretending that it's all the Americans' fault.
Which begs the question - what right does the US have to shoot innocent civilians, in their own country, who happen to be enjoying them same freedom - to keep and bear arms - that the constitution holds sacrosanct.
- In Soviet Korea, only old people loose all their bases to Natalie Portman's petrified hot grits overlords.
It amazes me how brainwashed some Americans are.
Especially the ones who think the USA is a "democracy."
What offends me about Manning and Snowden is they knew EXACTLY who they were going to work for, swore oaths to keep their mouths shut, and then didn't. Working for 20 years in network security, I don't share the pop media belief that they 'revealed' big things. No, they got the popular media to pay attention to something that any educated person knew was going on, and had been going on for a long time. But they had to lie, steal, and break oaths to do that, and my sympathy for their plight is all that it should be. The Patriot Act was wrong all along, and anybody smarter than a chimp knew exactly what intelligence agencies would do with it ... the same thing NSA, GCHQ and their counterparts around the world ALWAYS do: seek every gram of data they can get, because that's their job.
It's our job, and our elected representatives' job, to prioritize liberty over security ... and we failed miserably at that post-9/11. Spooks do what spooks do, be sneaky SOB's ... it's the electorate and Congress that failed, miserably, but we find it too hard to look in the mirror and be accountable, so we blame spooks ... for doing exactly what we hire spooks to do. Convenient, but not a path to progress.
Sure, tell the truth:
The truth about innocent names and people trusting that they would have their confidentiality kept in dangerous parts of the world. Whose families got killed after the native governments found out who they are.
The truth about how ISIS was being monitored, which allowed then to now conduct operations without worry... had that "truth" not be out, the guys at Charlie Hebdo would still be alive.
The truth about US counter-espionage, which now gives hostile powers like China a greater hand.
I don't get why these guys are given any treatment other than contempt. They have helped greatly to empower repressive, brutal regimes, while damaging open governments. As for a higher standard? The offering of asylum and money is not exactly a higher cause. That is just plain treason.
I hope the Triad of Treason faces justice and responsibility for the people they killed. They did no honorable or valorous acts, except sell their government out.
What about Dave Patreus, why aren't you calling for his head? He leaked classified docs but rather than face prison he got a slap on the wrist, and the prosecutors didn't even want to do that.
It's "resistors".
And they were already outed. You can easily tell what and how strong they are by their colored bands.
Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
How many people actually died as a direct result of these disclosures? Numbers? Names? How many people died as a result of liberating oil wells or looking for WMDs? Hmm...
Dear Germany: you get no points for putting up statues to controversial dissidents from other peoples' countries. You're clearly trying to make a bold political statement here, but to do that you need to take a stand against members of your own nation. Put up a statue to the folks who prosecuted the Christian Democratic Union's campaign donations scandal in 1999, or Kathrin Oertel, the leader of an anti-islamic nationalist group who recently resigned and recanted, and *then* you can pat yourselves on the back.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...
I have no issue with Assange being on this. His goal was ALWAYS about getting knowledge out there. Now, he may be a rapists, but that is a different issue.
However, I take issues with both Manning and Snowden.
Manning's goal was NOT to release information because he opposed what was going on. His reason was because he was mad at the US because he was gay and was about to be booted out. With that said, the information that he release was about some of our illegal doings. As such, he should not be punished for this, but, he is no hero.
Snowden is a whole other creature from these two. He worked on a number of NSA systems. He was aware of what was going on. Cool. I worked on some of these, BUT, it was all low-level stuff, not the high levels that he had. I was aware that it was POSSIBLE to do the things that we have done. When he spoke about the spying on Americans, I was actually good with that. NSA had congressional oversight that was removed by the GOP back in 2005. I was against that because I knew that they did that so that their friends could go to work and do much more than what they were allowed to. That is why Congressman Udall kept hinting at what was going on.
BUT, when he told how NSA spies on the outside world, he became a traitor. America set up NSA to spy on what other nations, terrorists and foreign elements do. We need to know what is going on out there. It is the same thing that ALL NATIONS DO. Yes, EVERY NATION HAS THIS GOING ON. Now, NSA has greater capabilities because we have top ppl in there. In addition, we have worked with many nations to not only spy for us, but also to give them the information. Everyone that we work with, which includes all of the west, KNOWS what we are up to. In addition, we, and UK, have tought others how to do this counting on sharing of information. That is why AQ has not been successful in attacking the west for over 10 years. France happened because all of these nations hold back from spying everywhere, and once terrorists became aware of how we do things, then they could evaded the net. All they had to do was simply avoid certain comm channels that went between nations. By doing that, the evaded the net.
France's attack success can be blamed partially on Snowden. He made it possible for those terrorists to evade the net. In fact, a big reason why so many are going from Europe to ISIS is because ISIS now knows how to avoid detection and instead focuses their recruiting efforts throughout europe and other locations in which they are not going to be interrupted.
How many of you have kids? Do you have a 15-16 y.o. in which the girls want to go marry a terrorists and 'fight for freedom'? Of course, when those girls marry, they are not just property, but ISIS killed a number of them, and their infant kids, so that they were not a burden when they moved from one location to another.
Of course, your boy was not murdered. Just put on the front line with little to no training and told to take on western trained troops. IOW, they were cannon fodder.
Sorry, but this is not what I would want for my kids. And sadly, Snowden makes it possible.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
And! And: it says Snowden is "trapped" in Moscow, which is not very agitprop-friendly. Workable, but not exactly jingoism.
Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
Sure, tell the truth:
The truth about innocent names and people trusting that they would have their confidentiality kept in dangerous parts of the world. Whose families got killed after the native governments found out who they are.
The truth about how ISIS was being monitored, which allowed then to now conduct operations without worry... had that "truth" not be out, the guys at Charlie Hebdo would still be alive.
The truth about US counter-espionage, which now gives hostile powers like China a greater hand.
I don't get why these guys are given any treatment other than contempt. They have helped greatly to empower repressive, brutal regimes, while damaging open governments. As for a higher standard? The offering of asylum and money is not exactly a higher cause. That is just plain treason.
I hope the Triad of Treason faces justice and responsibility for the people they killed. They did no honorable or valorous acts, except sell their government out.
The problem with all this is that the NSA is a military power that was proven to have turned military force against it's own people with the information that has been released and the people that are not being represented but mostly steered, in fact they are being ignored in the decision making process to effect the unconstitutional processes in government.
Want to talk about people being killed? Okay, then lets talk about my grandfather who was on JFK's short list of folks that knew what was going on in the actual JFK space program that we never got being ripped off and killed by the mob to steal money he wired for some image sensors and that resulted in the CIA SR program being cancelled by my great uncle Jack in 1964. It was not even the Russky's, it was our own local home grown wise guys. Charity begins at home fuckwhit, and if we can't keep our own shit straight then we should have no business judging anyone else. Then again the wise guys have had a wonderful example provided by the government since the 50's of doing anything but playing it straight. You think things are dangerous for an arm chair intelligence officer that doesn't even have to do the actual foot work? Try building a spy plane without black budgets in the cold war era to maintain absolute secrecy in your own fucking country without the criminals smelling the money.
Innocently ambushing US troops? That part was careful kept off the film - the ongoing firefight a block away wouldn't have made the terrorists look so innocent, now would it?
And! And: it says Snowden is "trapped" in Moscow, which is not very agitprop-friendly.
Snowden *is* trapped in Russia unless he wants to cell-mate with Bradley Manning.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
Right, which is why I added the second sentence. My point is that it could've been phrased in a manner that avoids implying Moscow is a trap, e.g. "unable to return home." I'm sure there are schools of propaganda training that are more subtle and don't pooh-pooh that sort of structuring, but at the very least it implies some restraint on the parts of the authors away from being a proverbial anti-US slant.
Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
Do you have a reference for : "Assange himself later even admitted that they essentially lied about it
For those who don't know, it was the first piece released to wikileaks, and it was attempting to paint a narrative that US soldiers just casually and routinely openly fire on unarmed civilians.
Wrong and misleading
Wikileaks was in operation for years before this.
The full video was released alongside the edited one so people could judge that for themselves.
How many people actually died as a direct result of these disclosures? Numbers? Names?
If you shoot into a crowd, it isn't okay just because you failed to actually hit anyone.
How many people died as a result of liberating oil wells or looking for WMDs? Hmm...
That is irrelevant. You cannot justify doing something that is wrong or stupid, just by pointing out that someone else did something even dumber.
I personally believe that Snowden, and Manning both disclosed illegal activities that should have disclosed, and both are more hero than not. But I also believe that both could and should have used more discretion in releasing information that was harmful. Maybe someday, in a more enlightened future, they will both get a more permanent statue in their homeland.
You will be modded into oblivion for pointing out the inconvenient truth here on slashdot.
Snowden demonstrated his naivety when he willingly went on the Putin propaganda hour and asked softball questions. Remember that?
Do you really think there is no difference in terms of freedom of the press in Russia and the US?
FTA: Alexanderplatz square
'Platz' means square. It's just Alexanderplatz.
So, Germans defend the right of people to tell the world when things go wrong in other countries.
And yeah, building statues is clearly the right thing to do, especially after Snowden clearly said that he didn't want the world to focus on his person but rather on what he revealed. How about actually helping these people instead? They aren't dead yet you know.
For me it is an empty political move.
Sure, tell the truth:
The truth about innocent names and people trusting that they would have their confidentiality kept in dangerous parts of the world. Whose families got killed after the native governments found out who they are.
The truth about how ISIS was being monitored, which allowed then to now conduct operations without worry... had that "truth" not be out, the guys at Charlie Hebdo would still be alive.
Can you shows any evidence proving one of these statements?
What's Ho Chi MInh got to do with it?
You win over white-black-black-brown Internets.
CLI paste? paste.pr0.tips!
"A guy who went straight to the Russians"? you mean, a guy whose passport was revoked by the Americans while in Russia. You just responded to someone's claim of paid shills by raising your hand--God, you guys are so bad at this!
Spies provide information to countries anxious to know if the other side is planning a sneak attack. If they don't know if the opponent is planning a sneak attack then their only logical response is to make a preemptive attack of their own. Obviously the U.S. is planning a sneak attack, which they want to keep secret. If they are successful at hiding their intentions, their opponents will have no choice but to make a preemptive attack. Whistleblowers have so far prevented either occurrence.
He's only wanted for questioning. There's nothing says you have to answer or go with the police until they arrest you.
Until then you have every right to bargain and say no if the bargain is not to your liking.
Nobody was shooting.
Nobody was harmed or outed, even the DoD admits it. You're just lapping up foxpropaganda.
Then throwing it up on our shoes.
"That is irrelevant. "
That's not how you spell pertinent. It's a very relevant question. The answer to how many people were harmed by the disclosures of WL is zero. The number died liberating oil wells or not finding WMDs you sold them a decade or more before cost thousands of lives.
Given your whining about possible deaths, your refusal to admit any point is why their query was VERY pertinent.
It's just done differently. The state suffers no serious challenges on either side. The value of American media lies solely in its entertainment value, which makes it much more effective than your standard Russian propaganda. Regardless, the empire stands tall!
Russia Today is quite literally government controlled and run propaganda. Can you honestly make that claim about the US media?
Yes, the US media are propaganda mouthpieces of their own recognizance.
At least the Russian propaganda is honest about being propaganda.
Every Eastern European I've met has told me this, "the difference between American propaganda and Russian propaganda is that we [Russians] didn't beleive our propaganda".
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
> They have lost their freedom for the truth
No, they didn't. Edward Snowden decided to forfeit his freedom by voluntarily entering the Empire of Muscovy, where he bought his life from Putin, by giving the Kremlin military secrets which allowed the armed takeover of Crimea from the Ukraine, in violation of the Budapest Memorandum, which the USA undersigned.
But one day the muscovite hordes will be defeated, their remains will be pushed to the other side of the Urals, their captured battle flags will be ceremonially burned at the feet of the Brandenburg Gate and Snowden will hang for capital treason, just like Quisling. The father, retired admiral Snowden of the US Coast Guard will kick the chair under his son or if he is deceased, some other family member.
At the very least there are a large number of different media sites and the US government is not legislating to massively curtail and control the media. Russia, however, is.
Except the polls in Russia show the Russian people swallowing the crap Russia Today spews forth. A majority of Russians now have a positive view on Stalin, possibly because all negative aspects of his reign are being denied and suppressed by Putin and his bum chums.
Only an asshole thinks being trans* even deserves mention alongside being a rapist or a traitor.
I imagine when you've already pissed off the biggest army in the world you might start to watch your step a bit.
If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.