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Australia's Prime Minister Doesn't Get Why Kids Should Learn To Code

Posted by samzenpus on from the seeing-the-forest-for-the-trees dept.

New submitter Gob Gob writes: The Prime Minister of Australia has come out and ridiculed an opposition policy aimed at teaching kids to code. In response to the leader of the Labor Party's question about whether he would commit to supporting Labor's push to have coding taught in every primary school in Australia, the Prime Minister said: "He said that he wants primary school kids to be taught coding so they can get the jobs of the future. Does he want to send them all out to work at the age of 11? Is that what he wants to do? Seriously?"

32 of 306 comments (clear)

  1. Tony Abbott ... by thephydes · · Score: 5, Insightful

    doesn't get a few things, like digging 60M tonnes of coal from central Queensland might be a) bad for the Great Barrier Reef (because of the port infrastructure needed) and b) bad for CO2 levels in the atmosphere, and C) bad for Australia because we will pay for infrastructure for these projects to go ahead. He is typical of conservative politics in Australia - I hope his great grand-children forgive him.

  2. Doesn't get it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yeah, because as soon as you're taught something you have to go out and get a job based on it. In another time this would have been like querying whether kids should be taught to read and write in primary school...

    1. Re:Doesn't get it by mjpaci · · Score: 2

      I started learning computer programming way back when I was 8 or 9 (1980/1981); our local community college had a class for kids in the evenings. Basic on a PDP11 running RSTS/e. I still remember the username and password (username:113,3; password: mercer).

      Anyhow, exposing kids to coding at that age isn't about learning how to be a computer programmer. It's about teaching logic and how to break a problem down into smaller, more manageable pieces (think WBS in project management). Why do we make our kids take geometry? Proofs. Critical thinking. Algebra? Same thing.

      In 7th grade math we used LOGO - not a language for career computer programmers I'd say, but it was a "training wheels" language. The teacher would give you a problem and you had to solve it.

      As an aside...

      I have a theory that Germans make good programmers because of the German language itself. Stacks. Subroutines. Recursion...

    2. Re:Doesn't get it by GrumpySteen · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The point of teaching computer programming is not to make every child a computer programmer any more than the point of a biology class is to make every child into a biologist.

    3. Re:Doesn't get it by FireFury03 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yeah, because as soon as you're taught something you have to go out and get a job based on it. In another time this would have been like querying whether kids should be taught to read and write in primary school...

      Unlike reading and writing there is absolutely no evidence supporting to faux claim that children must learn to develop computer programmes. Mark Zuckerburg et. al. are the social parasites.

      You could say the same about a lot of subjects though - do children _have_ to understand maths, history, geography, art, music, etc? However, having a broad education is a Good Thing. Furthermore, being able to write simple code can be a massive help in many non-coding jobs.

      For example, my wife is a hospital doctor - probably the last thing you'd expect that job to need is coding skills. However, she needs to do audits over records occasionally, and I end up writing simple Python scripts for her to process the data - she has no coding skills, so without me to do that she would be spending hours doing stuff manually that I can write code in minutes to do. She tells me that her IT classes at secondary school were almost entirely taken up by teaching about the health and safety concerns related to using computers, rather than actually learning how to use them. I'm 5 years older (which puts me in the BBC/Acorn era) and my GCSE level IT classes taught me some basics about word processors, databases, etc, but no coding - I learnt to code in my own time. Being _taught_ to code didn't happen until A levels in my case, by which time anyone who isn't planning to have a career in computing or electronics has opted out in favor of other subjects.

      --
      http://blog.nexusuk.org
    4. Re:Doesn't get it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I thought the point of biology class was to turn every child into a bit of a biologist, just as a programming class will turn them into a bit of a programmer ... just as I am a bit of a cook, even though I'm a pretty bad one and I don't work in a restaurant. This idea that there are "biologists" who dedicate their lives to it and everyone else is a "non-biologist" just promulgates both elitism on the one hand and ignorance on the other. Same goes for programming. You may never write an application in your life, but being a bit of a programmer is going to help you the first time you need to, say, formulate a complex Google query.

    5. Re:Doesn't get it by HiThereImBob · · Score: 4, Insightful

      We should certainly be providing a well rounded education, but let's not ignore where this whole push to code comes from. It's from the people who pay the coders, and they hate paying high wages. The same people who cry about a lack of engineers in general, who push for more H1B's, who want to drive down wages in the industry.

      This doesn't have anything to do with benefiting the children, it's so Zuckerberg can be worth $28 Billion when he dies instead of $22 Billion - at the expense of those children.

    6. Re:Doesn't get it by CastrTroy · · Score: 2

      I don't think you can fix this problem by trying to teach more people how to program. Making students take math classes every year hasn't helped solve the problem of not having enough mathematicians. High level math is just something that is beyond the cognitive capabilities of most people. I'm not ashamed to admit that it's above my cognitive capability.

      Programming, and more specifically, actual software development, as opposed to just being able to write a few simple functions like one would use in Excel, is also something that I believe to be outside the ability of a large percentage of the population. You can try to teach programming to everybody, and that may bring the number of programmers up a bit and salaries may go down a little bit, but it's not going to solve the fundamental problem which is that most people will never be able to write software.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    7. Re:Doesn't get it by narcc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why does this come up in every discussion?

      Programming is not special. It does not require a "special mind" or other magical in-born trait. Whatever cognitive skills you believe are requisite are shared by many other subjects. Nor is programming a particularly difficult skill to acquire -- children can, and often do, teach themselves. Odds are good that you taught yourself sometime around the age of 10, +/- a year or two.

      "Oh, but only a few can be truly great", someone is bound to say in one form or another. Then we'd better not waste resources teaching children to write, as only a few will have the skill of Hemingway. Nor should we teach them arithmetic, as so few are capable of becoming great mathematicians.

      The ability to write computer programs should not be such a large part of your identity. It's like seeing smug posts from folks who can drive a vehicle with a manual transmission -- a skill that took me an hour to learn, and a week to master. That does not make me special. Being able to write computer programs doesn't make me special. They're both simple skills anyone can learn.

      --
      Required reading for internet skeptics
  3. No kid should be forced to code ... by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 3

    ... but then, kids who are interested in making their own computer programs should be allowed to do so

    And about politicians ...
     
    Most of them only knows how to make a lot of hot air, so I am not surprised at all at that outburst from that PM of the land from down-under

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    1. Re:No kid should be forced to code ... by larwe · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not sure if your comment is trolling, sarcasm, or just too deep for the average bear to understand. My first paid programming assignment was at the age of 10. And, it was in Australia. (Admittedly, it was just writing and modifying some bullshit educational software on the Apple II, but hey, it was software that other people used, and I was paid for it).

    2. Re:No kid should be forced to code ... by GrumpySteen · · Score: 3

      Most 11 year olds lack the cognitive functions to write novels, too, but that doesn't mean we don't teach them to write.

    3. Re: No kid should be forced to code ... by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 2

      Most kids are never taught to write well enough to later write a novel. That requires much more dedication and skill building. Heck, most people have trouble composing a cogent comment on Facebook.

        It would be great if we taught all school children to think logically and in an ordered manner such that coding were the next practical step. But ... have you ever been outside your own home? As it is now, coders self-select. We should not make the mistake to assume that a high level of success among a self-selected population would translate into a high level of success among the general population. And I can see why government schools may not be keen on teaching everybody critical thinking skills.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    4. Re:No kid should be forced to code ... by halltk1983 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I can't imagine any scenario other than software development that would benefit a person to think logically, break big problems into little ones, recurse through large numbers of things in a standard format, or think of a computer as something other than a magic mystery box. It's a good thing we got rid of shop class too, since no one but construction workers need to know how to use a hammer.

      --
      Watch for Penguins, they eat Apples and throw rocks at Windows.
  4. NBN by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 5, Insightful

    He's the PM who wanted to scrap the National Broadband Network and thought more roads was what Australia needed. He obviously doesn't get information technology at all.

    --
    Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
  5. I kind of agree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I get that everyone wants to teach kids to do what they like because they think they are the best version of human and obviously it is best for humanity if your life template is copied as much as possible, but I don't get why it is so obvious to everyone that getting everyone to code is so beneficial.

    There is a LOT to life, and not everyone needs to be doing the same things, or is even capable or willing to do those things. Everyone has different strengths and limitations. Even if you go on about how learning to code teaches a lot of associated skills, those same skills can be learned many other ways.

    I dunno, it just feels like all this "TEACH ALL KIDZ TO CODE, LOL" going around is a bunch of mutual masturbation and self-fellatio.

    1. Re:I kind of agree by FireFury03 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I get that everyone wants to teach kids to do what they like because they think they are the best version of human and obviously it is best for humanity if your life template is copied as much as possible, but I don't get why it is so obvious to everyone that getting everyone to code is so beneficial.

      There is a LOT to life, and not everyone needs to be doing the same things, or is even capable or willing to do those things. Everyone has different strengths and limitations. Even if you go on about how learning to code teaches a lot of associated skills, those same skills can be learned many other ways.

      I dunno, it just feels like all this "TEACH ALL KIDZ TO CODE, LOL" going around is a bunch of mutual masturbation and self-fellatio.

      Whilst most jobs don't _require_ coding skills, a lot of them would be done more efficiently if people had those skills. I would argue that knowing some basics about coding is probably more useful to the "average person" than a large chunk of the history, biology, maths, art, geography, etc. classes that we send kids to today.

      Of course, what's "most useful" shouldn't be the only criteria used in education - giving someone a well rounded education is also an excellent idea, but I think it's hard to argue that teaching people some basic coding skills wouldn't also fit into that.

      --
      http://blog.nexusuk.org
    2. Re:I kind of agree by serviscope_minor · · Score: 2

      You could substitute literally any reasonably broad subject into your post and it would mean precisely the same.

      In other words, it's perfectly possible to leave a large, broad subject out of general education. Most of the skills will be somewhat glanced upon in other subjects. Those that love it will probably find it anyway. But so what?

      You could use exactly the same arguments to not teach science, or maths, or foreign languages, or English or art or "making things" (DT in the UK), or geography, or history. The fact that it's possible to leave out a subject and not infinitely bad to do so is not an argument against leaving it out.

      You'll also note I specified any reasonably broad subject. A fairly good bu very rough guide is if universities usually have a whole faculty dedicated to it, it's reasonably broad.

      So yes, computing should be taught in schools, for much the same reason the other major subjects are taught. It's a part of the modern world and knowing a bit about it is now useful to being a reasonably well rounded human. It also teaches certain skills naturally---breaking down a problem into its smallest elements---which seems to be somewhat lacking in education at the moment. That is a generally useful skill which is also necessary to write any program.

      So get off your high horse. Computing SHOULD be taught at school precisely because there's nothing particularly special about it to distinguish it from all the other major subjects.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
  6. I'm sure /. will ridicule it, but... by Dahamma · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I mostly agree with him.

    I (and I'm sure MANY of us!) didn't learn any programming skills formally until college (and some not even there). I learned basic skills on my own because I thought it was fun, learned more formally in college, and really only made the decision to go into software engineering soon before graduation.

    I just think kids are better off learning more general areas - math, physics, chemistry, writing/literature, social sciences, economics, and BASIC (pun intended) computer science/programming. Leave the specialization to a time where they know what that even means.

    1. Re:I'm sure /. will ridicule it, but... by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Computers are pretty integral to modern learning. At the very least, kids nowadays need to be able to use a computer just like they need to know how to wield a pencil. As far as basics... computer programming is an excellent real-world opportunity to put basic skills to practical use, especially logic and math.

      BTW, you call chemistry "basic"? Why is chemistry of any practical use to anyone but anyone but a chemist? I can't recall a single instance in my life when I had to apply any sort of chemistry-based knowledge. Let's apply that same logic to computer programming. How often are these kids going to be interacting with computers in their lifetimes? Might it not be handy to understand how those computers work, and perhaps even know how to write scripts to automate tasks, for instance? Which of the two knowledge or skill sets (programming or chemistry) is more likely to have a direct impact on these kids lives?

      TL;DR version: nowadays, computers ARE fundamental.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    2. Re:I'm sure /. will ridicule it, but... by Kartu · · Score: 3, Interesting

      While computers are fundamental, programming them is not.

    3. Re:I'm sure /. will ridicule it, but... by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      BTW, you call chemistry "basic"? Why is chemistry of any practical use to anyone but anyone but a chemist? I can't recall a single instance in my life when I had to apply any sort of chemistry-based knowledge.

      Sigh. I'm shit at math but I can easily recognize many places where more math would improve my life, especially since I like to make things and customize them. By the same token I never got any chemistry (it was not required, and by the time I got to college I had other interests) but I can recognize that it would be cool to have more of it. Even cooking is chemistry, and a lot of that fancy-pants "molecular gastronomy" (what, other food doesn't have molecules?) stuff is applicable to more mundane foods. Or looking at the back of the shampoo bottle and knowing the difference between one thing and the next.

      Let's apply that same logic to computer programming. How often are these kids going to be interacting with computers in their lifetimes?

      A lot more deeply, odds are, if they're programmers. That's the point of teaching them young.

      Might it not be handy to understand how those computers work, and perhaps even know how to write scripts to automate tasks, for instance?

      Yeah, but you could do that without learning a whole lot about programming, simple if-then-else and pattern matching will cover most needs there. But programming is still very valuable. On the flip side, not all the kids will take to it, so spending a lot of time on it is probably a bad idea. They only make you spend a year or so on a foreign language (if that) in school, programming probably ought to receive about the same amount of mandatory attention.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  7. Coding: Language Skills by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Learning to code is like learning a second language. It teaches you to think in the mindspace of the computer, so to speak... that is, the kids are learning about logic, arithmetic, flow control, and other such concepts. Once you get the basics down, learning other languages becomes much easier. Even if those kids don't become programmers, the familiarity they get with computers and the higher lessons learned should still be worthwhile.

    Those of us who program for a living nowadays probably started programming on our own when we were younger. My first lessons were self-taught, thanks to an Apple II I had access to, as well as a book that taught AppleBASIC (and one designed for kids, of all things - I wish I could find that book somewhere). Later in college, I decided I wanted to become a programmer, and picked up Pascal, C, and C++ quite easily, thanks to my earlier lessons in BASIC.

    As long as the curriculum is solid, this seems like a positive thing. I wonder if it's difficult to find qualified instructors, though?

    --
    Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
  8. Easy to grasp... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    We need to start seeing programming languages as a modern replacement of the semantics of mathematics, rather than something separate. Mathematics is just programming expressed in the form of symbols. Take calculus for example, the equations describe dynamic systems and the symbols used are type of functions or methods. Programming is thus calculus and a program is a formal math proof. Many people will have issues with Math, but not demonstrate the same issues when it comes to code. Children can be offered a choice between math and programming, but still learn the same set of skills. I personally have issues with understanding and working with the traditional presentation of math equations, but this vanishes when I express those equations in code to such an extent that I'd have the same capability as someone with a Masters or PhD in mathematics. Some people are just wired differently and we need to understand that a one-size-fits-all approach to learning does not gel with how the brain works.

  9. It gets better. . . by jblues · · Score: 4, Informative

    It turns out under his own government's policy kids are already being taught to code, and he wasn't aware of this, so naturally went o the attack. Which seems to be the main talent of this guy.

    --
    If it acquires resources on instantiation like a duck, then its a shared_ptr<Duck>
    1. Re:It gets better. . . by dbIII · · Score: 2

      What do you expect from a former football hooligan who has been up in front of a Judge twice.
      "I only touched her back your honour" was his defence when he forced his way into a political meeting with a bunch of thugs, ran onto the stage and groped the speaker in front of an audience. The other time, the theft of a traffic sign was seen as minor so while he was found guilty no conviction was recorded.

  10. Fwd: Bad by maestroX · · Score: 2

    It's good to introduce children things they're likely to encounter.
    In my childhood I was taught (simple) woodworking, music (playing flute), theater (acting), sewing, swimming, etc.
    Not solely for perspective jobs, just for getting an idea what the world turns

  11. Don't make kids learn to code by Murdoch5 · · Score: 2

    Why are be so pressing on kids to learn coding? If a kid wants to learn coding, they'll learn coding, if they don't want to, they won't. If we start forcing kids to learn computer programming it will be no better then when we force kids to take Shakespeare, Drama, History or Art. Don't make kids learn anything they aren't interested in, because when you do that, they'll never give it a real shot.

  12. There is truth in his question. by Culture20 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Teaching coding to elementary/primary school children may not be helpful. A good portion of them may not yet grasp the perquisites necessary to understand logic for conditionals. If there are more crucial learning deficits like reading or arithmetic, then it's better to focus on them first.

  13. Re:I am a coder and I don't understand why by jblues · · Score: 2

    I'm so glad I got the opportunity to learn to code in primary school. It was the volunteer school music teacher who took extra time to show me, and it wasn't too long before we had vector graphics flying around the screen in 6502 assembly.

    This was one of the things that kept me out of trouble. I already had a different race and family background to the other kids. On top of that was smart enough to feel a bit alienated, but not so smart to be singled out as obviously gifted. Coding gave me a chance to feel stimulated, challenged, explore other ideas. And later it spurred me on to work harder at maths and science because I wanted to be able to apply those subjects in my coding (graphics and sound). So, not every kid will go on to be an amazing coder, but for some it will open doors.

    Think of it like school sport. While not all go on to be elite athletes, almost all kids in first world countries get the opportunity to play sports and participate in physical exercise at school. I was pretty lousy at sports, but, thanks to that early start to this day still have an interest in staying as fit and healthy as possible, and love the chance to get outside an enjoy nature.

    --
    If it acquires resources on instantiation like a duck, then its a shared_ptr<Duck>
  14. Re:I am a coder and I don't understand why by fluffernutter · · Score: 2

    I'm in the same boat as you. I just bought my kids a book on coding Minecraft mods. I am going to teach them because they were asking about it and it is something I am capable of doing with them that may help them in some way some day. But it is no different then a mechanic working with his kid to change an intake manifold on an engine in a muscle car. I don't see why all kids need to learn how to do it. In fact, I question if there will be any jobs that go remotely close to programming by the time they are working. It will all me clicking on buttons in the cloud.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  15. Re:Only if they're interested in it. by fluffernutter · · Score: 2

    No, we should stick to elementary school lessons that might actually apply in the work world when they get there.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.