Hacked Emails Reveal Russian Plans To Obtain Sensitive Western Tech

blando writes: A trove of emails provided to The Intercept detail Russian schemes to obtain a crucial component for military thermal-imaging systems. Though emails about the thermal imaging systems date back as far as 2006, the plans to acquire them began in earnest much more recently, in 2013. To try to hide Russian involvement, a company called Cyclone established a new company in the Republic of Cyprus. They did so with the help of a company called Rayfast, which was owned by three other companies itself. After obfuscating the new company's ownership and military ties, they reached out to several Western companies who worked with the technology.

Comments

it gets worse

[Anonymous Coward]

hacked emails also reveal that sourceforge is full of malware. Put there by sourceforge. When will slashdot report that?

Re:it gets worse

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would slashdot report the obvious?

Re:it gets worse

[jellomizer]

Like how the Russian are spying on us? That isn't new either.

Re:it gets worse

[Anonymous Coward]

Sourceforge is also owned by Dice. It would be more like -- why don't the Russian intelligence agencies put an ad in the New York Times asking for information?

Re:it gets worse

[Mashiki]

Never. Now bow down before your DICE overlords peon.

Just...wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

FTA:"In April 2014, Viktor Tarasov wrote to the head of Ruselectronics, a Russian state-owned holding company, about a critical shortage of military equipment. The Russian military lacked thermal imaging systems — devices commonly used to detect people and vehicles — and Tarasov believed that technology might be needed soon because of the “increasingly complex situation in the southeast of Ukraine and the possible participation of Russian forces” to stabilize the region."

Are they saying for the last 30 years they have had "zero" military thermal imaging capabilities? Couldn't they have just bought a few off e-bay? Something doesn't fit here...

Re:Just...wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

In Russia, images thermal you.

Re:Just...wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

Basically you have to wonder how much of this is total horseshit.

Re:Just...wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

Military grade thermal imaging of the sort on fighter jets or heat seeking missiles is not really the same as the consumer level junk you'd find on e-bay that people use to look for Sasquatch or find people in burning buildings.

The only way to deal with these kinds of situations is to punish the Western companies suckered into the deal SEVERELY. Doing business with unknown, shady companies that involve regulated tech just to try to chase every dollar that someone hints they may throw your way ... well, the executives of the company should be jailed.

Re:Just...wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

Western intelligence has always overestimated foreign military capabilities and resources, particularly that of the Russian military. It's what justifies their huge budgets.

Re:Just...wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

What part of "critical shortage" implies "zero"?

Re: Just...wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not always. During the Vietnam war Pentagon wanted to hear from the CIA that China woulnd't intervene and that the north was weak so that was what the CIA told them.

Later on during the cold war, it was important for pentagon that the russians where a big threat so the CIA begun with the overestimation.

Re:Just...wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

As in "zero" production capabilities.

Re:Just...wow.

[PPH]

Doing business with unknown, shady companies

Otherwise known as a free market economy.

Punish these companies how exactly? Refuse to give them any more US contracts? Then they just move offshore and serve the Chinese, Russian, Indian and other markets openly. And that's one less source our military has. If you can identify individuals within these companies that knowingly sold to restricted customers, perhaps you could throw them in prison. But in my experience with DoD contractors, you'll either get a sacrificial goat or they will wreck their own companies defending the good old boy network.

Re:Just...wow.

[Rei]

You could start by reading more than the first paragraph.

1) They don't have "zero" capability, but they have way too little - only a few hundred modern imagers.

2) They have tried to buy them off ebay before. And it led to arrests. It's illegal to export military-grade night vision equipment without a license, and apparently sites like ebay are well monitored for potential violations.

Re:Just...wow.

[Rei]

No, fines for violating export laws.

Being slapped with massive fines is usually pretty good motivation for a company. And given that the US spends nearly half of the world's total military spending, and the EU a good chunk of the rest, simply "hopping overseas" and choosing to serve other markets isn't exactly the smartest of plans, financially.

It's idiodic for a company to wilfully risk sales of hundreds of thousands of units per year to NATO to sell a couple hundred units to Russia. Russia's economy is barely bigger than Canada's. And less than 80% the size of Brazil's.

Re: Just...wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

When it comes to military hardware and technology, there is no free market, and there never has been, you incredible dunce.

Re:Just...wow.

[serviscope_minor]

Military grade thermal imaging of the sort on fighter jets or heat seeking missiles is not really the same as the consumer level junk you'd find on e-bay that people use to look for Sasquatch or find people in burning buildings.

How is it different apart from the usual mil spec things of being robust? The only experience I've got is with industrial thermal imagers. They're super sensitive (you could recover which keys had been pressedon a keyboard for example). One of the main things was it had some funky internal optics and a calibrated temperature source. Every few seconds, it would go ker-thunk and point the imager at the calibrated source (with a pause in the video) and then flip back. This seemed to ensure that the measurements were actually accurate (modulo emissivity of course).

Oh and it came in a funky metal case and streamed over a 100 mbit/s ethernet port using RTSP, uncompressed 16 bit thermal data, 0--655.36K or a nice false colour image complete with a colour bar.

And and the internal CPU ran WinCE and responded to telnet.

And of course if cost $LOTS, but not $MILITARY_LOTS.

Re:Just...wow.

[dunkindave]

Western intelligence has always overestimated foreign military capabilities and resources, particularly that of the Russian military.

One analyst presents a report that overestimates the foreign military capability, and one presents a report that underestimates it. A conflict occurs and one of the two is fired for not warning about technology that the adversary used that caused a lot of harm. Which of the two do you think got fired, and how do you think that will affect future reports by other analysts? The same problem exists in the Russian, Chinese, Indian, Israeli, ... intelligence systems - the system promotes overestimating in the carrot/stick system. For some reason, people would prefer not to get fired.

It's what justifies their huge budgets.

No, it's what justifies their ability to keep their jobs.

Re: Just...wow.

[PPH]

there is no free market, and there never has been,

Is that so?

Re: Just...wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

Reading comprehension for the lose. In the headline even: European countries approve... If there were at all a free market there would be no need for approval in the first place.

Re:Just...wow.

[PPH]

Being slapped with massive fines is usually pretty good motivation for a company.

Some years ago, Boeing was slapped with $500 million in fines by the DoJ. Within a few weeks, the Pentagon cut Boeing a check for .... $500 million for "additional expenses".

When you are the only source for some hardware, you don't pay fines. The taxpayer pays fines. And sometimes, you even make a profit on the transaction.

Re: Just...wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

Either you're utterly misinformed as to what the modern US military uses, or you're using a healthy dose of hyperbole. I can't tell. With the exception of gen3 plus night vision, which does fall under ITAR export restrictions -- you're legally prohibited to so much as let a non-citizen look through such a device, or some scary looking semiautomatic rifles descended from the VIETNAM era, absolutely nothing compares.

Re:Just...wow.

[maestroX]

Israel, Europe have been active in licensing systems to Sukhoi, (http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Flanker.html#mozTocId288713) let's hope nobody is trying for a conflict.

Re:Just...wow.

[Arkh89]

For LWIR imagers (so called thermal camera, operating at wavelength around 10 microns), there are export controls (ITAR in the US) if you go over some resolution (around VGA, 640x480) and some framerate.

Re:Just...wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

oh bullshit...

stfu already.

Re:Just...wow.

[Gryle]

Interestingly, the Soviet Union routinely underestimated US military capabilities on the assumption that if the US had the capability, the US would have used it. The US hadn't used it, so obviously they didn't have it.

Source: Operation Solo, John Barron.

Re:Just...wow.

[Charliemopps]

Interestingly, the Soviet Union routinely underestimated US military capabilities on the assumption that if the US had the capability, the US would have used it. The US hadn't used it, so obviously they didn't have it.

Source: Operation Solo, John Barron.

I doubt that. I think the US often overestimates themselves. Pretty much every war we've fought since WW2 has been against 3rd world countries with a few key assets provided by China/Russia. A war against China or Russia proper I suspect would be an eye opener for a lot of people. Aircraft Carriers are really big targets and Stealth aircraft are only really stealthy to pre-1980s anti-air systems.

Re:Just...wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

High resolution and high rate thermal imaging sensors are export controlled because they're a military proliferation risk.

Check out Flir's export regs page. http://www.flir.com/corporate/display/?id=67237

If you look at the documentation from packaged thermal imaging systems or the datasheets for thermal sensor packages you'll see descriptions of how they meet certain export criteria in marketing materials. Updates/frames per second seems to be particularly crippled (Which you would need in high speed applications, like a missile)

I've seen some thermal gear teardowns on some of the geekier youtube channels and most determine that the rates are limited in the sensor package themselfs. (Would be dumb if you could hack some device's firmware, or de-solder a thermal sensor and gain military grade hardware that you're not supposed to have)

Re:Just...wow.

[Yomers]

Could be hundred percent bullshit - I had basic, 'made in Russia', night vision googles 10 to 15 years back in Moscow. Not a military grade, for sure. Also quick googling turned a company with classical name katod , based in Novosibirsk, here http://nsk.rbc.ru/nsk_topnews/... (on russian) they claim to produce consumer and military equipment, using only domestic and Chinese components.

On the other hand, FA claims that Russia lacks ability to produce critical component called microbolometer arrays, this claim sounds very plausible - USSR and then Russia never were good at producing things which include 'micro' in their names. Hence the old joke about modern Soviet microprocessor features - 6 contact pins and 2 heavy-duty handles. But hello, could they just get this 'microbolometer array' thingies from China?

Re:Just...wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

No antisemitism intended, but Israel would sell their granny. No scruples. But then neither have most other countries.

Re:Just...wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

If by "eye-opener" you mean "extremely damaging to the USA" then yes, it would be. If you mean "the USA would lose" then I suspect you'd be wrong. The rest of NATO combined does not match the power of the USA alone, it's true, but any war involving the USA (particularly against Russia and/or China) is guaranteed to drag in the rest of NATO and the militaries of France, the Netherlands and even now the UK (though ask again in five years about that one since we seem determined to fuck over the world's fifth most powerful armed force in the name of fucking it up), while the likes of the Germans and the Italians may have pretty lousy strike forces but the Germans in particular have good holding militaries. We'd also see the Japanese doing what they could on the US side, be it openly or with plausible deniability depending on the risk of immediate action from China.

Even acting alone I'd back the US against even Russia and China combined, but the cost would be immense, in lives, in equipment, and as you note, in aircraft carriers... With the rest of NATO, the outcome would be even less in doubt, but again, we'd wreck our economies, our power bases, and our militaries.

Bear in mind that at the start of the Great War there were some mighty empires in this world - the British, the French, the German, the Turkish and the Russian, in particular; the Austrian Empire was also still a power. The US was a power, but not yet quite of the level of the great European powers. At the end of that four years, the German, Turkish, Austrian and Russian Empires were smashed and in ruins. The British and French Empires were apparently strengthened through seizure of particularly German territory, but this added a level of over-stretching in a world that was quite changed, not least when the Soviet Union emerged from the civil wars that wracked the former Russia, and then a recovering Germany. The Second World War may not have immediately lead to the formal end of the European empires, but at the end of the war the British and French Empires were exhausted and brutally weakened - Britain in particular would soon lose India, always the most valuable of its assets - while the US entered the war as a genuinely major military might, as did the Soviet Union. The German Second Reich was again smashed, as was what little might the Italians had put together. China, which had been a subservient state under British and French domination near the opening of the Great War emerged from the Second as one of the major powers in the world - a position a bit skewed by its own civil war but increasingly cemented even under Mao until finally in the early 70s the reality was acknowledged and Taiwan was ejected from permanent membership of the Security Council in favour of communist China.

In the space of ultimately 9 years of war spread over 27, the massive European Empires were either destroyed or fatally weakened. We were left with a world initially bipolar and split between the US and the Soviets - neither serious major players at the outset of the Great War given the decline of the Russian Empire and a mixture of American isolationism and the power of the British, French and German Empires in particular - and with the Chinese increasingly forcing their way into power, against a backdrop of the continued decline of the British and French. And this is ultimately the world we still live in, but fast-forwarded another twenty years or so.

The point is that the outbreak of another major war between the current powers (the US, China and - to a lesser extent since I'm not particularly convinced by its military - Russia) would certainly break the power of the losing side and therefore most likely the Chinese and Russians, but would also most likely exhaust American resources and the American will to fight. The world that we'd live in afterwards (always, of course, assuming that it remained conventional and didn't turn nuclear -- a terrifying prospect in the modern world in which not just the States, Russia, Britain, France and China are armed,

Re:Just...wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

How does It work when its going 600 mph.

Re:Just...wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah - posting on this site, you're overwhelmingly likely to be American or British, and we're two of the biggest arms dealers in the world and will sell to anyone. Frankly, if you're also anywhere in Western Europe you're living in one of the bigger arms dealers in the world - that bastion of liberal pacifism, Sweden, is a major dealer and developer itself and one of the main bases of BAE, while Norway tends to cheerfully pile money into the development of undersea missile technology.

Re:Just...wow.

[godel_56]

FTA:"In April 2014, Viktor Tarasov wrote to the head of Ruselectronics, a Russian state-owned holding company, about a critical shortage of military equipment. The Russian military lacked thermal imaging systems — devices commonly used to detect people and vehicles — and Tarasov believed that technology might be needed soon because of the “increasingly complex situation in the southeast of Ukraine and the possible participation of Russian forces” to stabilize the region."

Are they saying for the last 30 years they have had "zero" military thermal imaging capabilities? Couldn't they have just bought a few off e-bay? Something doesn't fit here...

If you'd read TFA you'd see that they have been doing that as well.

Re:Just...wow.

[serviscope_minor]

Oh, well, that would explain why the camera had a distressingly low frame rate then.

Re:Just...wow.

[shutdown -p now]

Military grade thermal imaging of the sort on fighter jets or heat seeking missiles is not really the same as the consumer level junk you'd find on e-bay that people use to look for Sasquatch or find people in burning buildings

That's plainly not true. If you have around $5K, you can absolutely buy military grade thermal vision devices online, including eBay. Might not be the kind they put on fighter jets, exactly, but certainly the kind they issue to soldiers in the field.

Re:Just...wow.

[shutdown -p now]

Not zero, but yes, Russia is kinda lagging behind on these things. Not even just fancy stuff like thermal or NVD, but even just plain optics or red dot and holo sights (just for giggles, look up the battery life on red dot sights that are in service there, and compare to Aimpoint, or even the more expensive Chinese optics).

Re:Just...wow.

[NicBenjamin]

Most of the ones on eBay are Russian.

I suspect what he was saying is that Western equipment is way better (our electronics were orders of magnitude better even back when they were a superpower).

Re:Just...wow.

[BoFo]

What you say makes sense (or lack of sense) but it doesn't sound sinister enough for the western mainstream reportage on Russia.

Re: Just...wow.

[WindBourne]

Sadly, that was a great assessment of the past, current, and probably future.

Re:Just...wow.

[lsatenstein]

The problem with all these conjecture is that "When there is a will, there is a way". Russia or China, or ISIS or even American criminals can get their hands on this thermal imaging stuff. Just visit an ally and do some snooping and stealing from them.

Re:Just...wow.

[cheesybagel]

The Netherlands? Ahahah. Ask them to send their tanks to save you. They don't have any left!

Re:Just...wow.

[cheesybagel]

The Russians suck at microelectronics. They don't have the manufacturing facilities nor the expertise. This has hampered a lot of their military technologies like in the areas of AESA radar, command and control, night vision equipment, etc.

The Chinese are a lot better at this than the Russians now. Some even claim they are getting better than Europe at it.

Every country does this

[Anonymous Coward]

If you make the assumption that every single country on the planet with the resources to steal technology/information from other countries will always attempt to do so, then I don't think you'd be that far off the mark. It doesn't matter if it's an ally or an enemy, if they've got stuff that you want, then you'll try to get it. Countries talk a nice game, except for maybe North Korea, but generally they're just trying to get as much stuff as they can.

In a way this is good news

[Chrisq]

It shows that anti-corruption measures are working. The Russians had to go to great lengths to disguise their identity. In the cold war days they would have just paid some American a few million dollars for the information, or promised some Brit a chance to be part of the glorious socialist revolution by handing it over. Now they have to work for it!

sold online in Russia in abundance

[Max_W]

Strange. I just made a search and found literally hundreds of high-ent thermal-imaging devices in Russian Internet shops: http://www.4glaza.ru/katalog/p... http://tut.ru/PNV

Re:sold online in Russia in abundance

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but what they don't tell you is that they drop-ship from Cyprus.

Re:sold online in Russia in abundance

[Anonymous Coward]

This is night vision by light amplification. Different tech.

Re:sold online in Russia in abundance

[Anonymous Coward]

No, you stupid half wit. FTFA: "thermal imaging systems". That's not light amplification. Two different things.

Re:sold online in Russia in abundance

[Trachman]

2nd Generation devices. I believe current demand is for 4th and 5th generation.

Re:sold online in Russia in abundance

[oldmac31310]

No. They are drone shipped by Amazon from a warehouse in Minnesota.

in soviet russia

[Anonymous Coward]

ur emails read haxx0rz haxx0rz haxx0rz

Tom Clancy Novel

[njhunter]

I thought the Jack Ryan series was fictional!

Re:Tom Clancy Novel

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought the Jack Ryan series was fictional!

It is! Her name is Julie Ryan, but Tom Clancy didn't think anyone would believe it.

2015... the year we bash Russia....

[Anonymous Coward]

Dull dull dull....
Even slashdot has sunk to new lows bashing Russia for no good reason.

Re:2015... the year we bash Russia....

[Coren22]

Is it bashing Russia to tell a truthful story?

Re:2015... the year we bash Russia....

[cyberchondriac]

But if it was the US stealing tech from Russia, that'd be an outrage, right? Look, every country steals technology (or tries to) from others, and being tech, that fits the bill for newsworthy on a tech site. Not particularly exciting, no, but not "bashing" on Russia for no good reason either.

Alibaba is your friend

[Anonymous Coward]

"(Pentagon spokesperson Eileen Lainez confirmed that the Department of Defense had provided thermal imaging devices and night-vision goggles to Ukraine in 2014, along with a variety of other military equipment)."

http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/night-vision-goggles.html

I have to say I'm very skeptical, even a quick search shows Night Vision goggles are easy to obtain and mostly made in China, but then again it does refer to 'advanced imaging' non-cooled types and this is military kit on the sights of ground weapons not soldiers kit.

But when I search for the microbolometer-arrays non cooled chips, those are freely available too:
http://irthermalimaging.manufacturer.isp.org.cn/c1305084-thermal-imaging-module
http://irthermalimaging.manufacturer.isp.org.cn/c1305083-uncooled-infrared-detectors

I sooo want to believe this, Putin is an election rigging murderer no doubt. His popularity is fake no doubt. Ukraine is invaded by Russia no doubt, Crimea is not free and certainly did not vote massively to become Russian, no doubt at all that Russian soldiers are there, but as soon as the emails mentioned it was needed in Ukraine by the russian troops, it sort of went too far.

Like the bad guy giving away the plan to the good guy, in a movie just so the audience can understand the plot.

You know, a security company whose spokesman is its owner, reveals leaked emails from hackers revealing secrets full of names and plots, I sort of expect to see Wikileaks style details of the emails, not a novella from the security company showing the big houses of the Russians the way a Jame Bond movie shows the villains hideouts..

I'm still willing to believe this, but really i needs a Wikileaks dump of the emails.

Re:Alibaba is your friend

[andydread]

Night vision is not the same as thermal imaging. Consumer grade thermal imaging is not the same as military grade.

Re:Alibaba is your friend

[Anonymous Coward]

Well first of all the "Nightvision goggles' comes from the Pentagon Spokeman as what they supplied (see the first paragraph).
A microbolometer-array is an *thermal* sensor, and this was mentioned as the part they were seeking.

I did a search on the usual sources of Chinese chips, and found many manufacturers making sensors for "coastal defence" and "firefighting" and similar.
I then did a quick check on the spec, since VGA seemed quite low res and found 1/4 VGA is common among the manufacturers listed in Wikipedia so that is highend as claimed.

So at this point, I'm getting very very skeptical. I then read through the PDF in detail and its just fluff and demonization talk. I visit the website to this 'obsfucated company' and its name is in russian with a russian contact address, so I don't see them really hiding. I then do a search on the source of the news to find it has no substance behind it, some one man band consultant.

So I remain skeptical.

The obvious thing that would make me non-skeptical is to release the thousands of emails, so I can read them, and find detail I can verify. As it is, I class this as "written for Fox News'.

Doesn't sound right?

[Anonymous Coward]

Firstly, its not really possible in the days of big data to obfuscate the ownership of the company, nor its customer base. Today, a single query to any half decent intelligence DB will give an instant response and these companies would be on watch lists. As for infra-red sensors, well, I also doubt the usefulness of such an operation. This is physics, not magic. There are limits to what sensors can do and all the properties of elements and materials are so well defined that computer modelling would show instantly what materials to use and the optimum configuration.

To me, this sounds like a honey pot to flush out those attempting to breach the network.

Re:Doesn't sound right?

[Anonymous Coward]

It is trivial to obfuscate company ownership. Look at all the robocaller corporations with headquarters in Caribbean countries, whose shareholders are different holding companies, also headquartered somewhere offshore. Yes, the Feds and Interpol might be able to untangle this... but it requires a metric fuckton of international cooperation between small countries who really don't care much for the West.

For anything other than international espionage where the big dogs get involved, it is not hard to make a company whose real owners are impossible to find.

Evil Russians!

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember guys, when the Russians do it, it's because they are evil and godless savages, but when our government (You're probably in a country that's part of the Five Eyes, or complacent to it) does it, it's for freedom and security!

Re:Evil Russians!

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember guys, when the Russians do it, it's because they are evil and godless savages, but when our government (You're probably in a country that's part of the Five Eyes, or complacent to it) does it, it's for freedom and security!

And if some foreign country invaded the US and our population fought back, we'd be "freedom fighters"...but when our troops invade/occupy a foreign country the people fighting us are "terrorists" and "insurgents", because nobody should fight us - we "own the world".

why bother

[Anonymous Coward]

Americans will find a way to sell anything to anyone if there is a profit in it.

Re:Debian Women, and a request(?) of the Rus

[Anonymous Coward]

same fucking retards on every thread...

What is the point?

[Karmashock]

Russia can't build any of that stuff even if they got the plans.

Their tech is mostly bluster and bravado at this point.

Take their new fighter jet... looks cool right? Well, that's about all it does with any competence. That is in fact its point. To look cool. As a weapons platform, it is a joke.

And that goes for the majority of the Russian armory. It is either some cold war rusting piece of shit that hasn't been upgraded with new sensors or weapons. Or it is some Potemkin village farce.

The Russians have their heads so far up their own asses that they're using mobile crematoriums to hide their own war dead from their own people in Ukraine.

Talk to a Russian about Ukraine. They'll swear that this talk of Russian soldiers in Ukraine is just western propaganda.

Never mind that literally everyone else contradict that from the Ukrainians to about a dozen NATO members to sat photos showing Russian tanks crossing the border... etc.

So what are the Russians going to do if they steal our tech? They're not competent enough to build it regardless.

Their economy is a joke... look at this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

So, they rank lower than Slovakia and Slovenia... below Greece.... you know, that country in the EU that everyone is laughing at for being incompetent.

Seriously, what is Russia going to do?

They talk a big game but Russia is the Black Knight of Asia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Re:What is the point?

[guacamole]

LOL. For someone using such an authoritative voice in a post, you offer zero evidence for any of your claims. If Russian weapons tech was a joke, Russia wouldn't have been worlds second biggest weapons exporter.

Russian fighter jets are indeed very cool. If you're interesting in modern weapon delivery platforms, then look up the brand spanking new Su-34 on wikipedia. Russia is the second country to develop a fifth generation fighter jet, and the first country to build a fourth generation tank platform (Armata).

Yes, Russian solidiers and weapons cross into Ukraine. Big news. Typical information warfare. 15 years ago, our president George W Bush claimed adamantly that there was al-Queda and WMDs in Iraq even though the rest of the world though he is full if shit.

Re:What is the point?

[Karmashock]

I am aware of the russian jet... what is your argument for it being "fifth generation"? What does that mean to you? Because the evaluation from the Pentagon is that it is a hot mess.

it doesn't manuver well, its sensor package is shit, it isn't especially stealthy... so if it engages comparable US or NATO planes it will die before even seeing its enemy.

As to their new tank... remind me again why it is a "4th generation" tank?

Again, you use these terms but I don't think you know what they mean. This whole concept implies a qualitative improvement over previous generations such that previous generations are not competitive. However, the Russian models are not superior to even old US tech. This is shit.

Their new jet could get whacked by some F18 hornets much less the far superior F22... and either new tank is no better than the existing Abrams. So... why do I care again?

As to your final comment... are you claiming the Russians are not in Ukraine? Because... everyone says they are... There are a dozen Nato powers saying it, there is sat photos of it... the ukranians are saying.

Out of curosity, what would it take for you to believe there were Russian soldiers in Ukraine? What evidence would work for you short of someone coming into your parent's basement, throwing you in a sack, carting you off to ukraine, sitting you down somewhere on the border, taking the sack off... and letting you see what is going on with your own eyes.

What evidence would work for you?

Re:What is the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe they just want to be a conservative country with nice women?
Maybe they are striving for that. A journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step. Let them like their country. You don't need to pull everyone down.

Re:What is the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

At least they make their own planes.

Few countries do.
USA, China, Russia, France.
That's pretty much it.

Would you like to have NO competition and thus out of work as an engineer because what you have is "good enough"?

Be happy they're bothering to strive. The USA doesn't do shit if no one is challenging them. It just sits on it's ass, fires all the engineers, and forgets about all the glory and expansion it was going to work on.

Re:What is the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

Severe butthurt detected. Shit us some more bricks please, we will build one more mobile crematorium out of it, thanks!

Re:What is the point?

[nnull]

You realize a lot of technology that's out there to build a lot of this military equipment is available to literally anyone? CNC machines are plentiful and Russians do have the knowledge to build high quality military equipment if they need too. Russia's booming industry right now is software and military weapons, so that's what they're focusing on and doing pretty damn well at it. Just looking at the advancement of Sukhoi, it is pretty impressive seeing that company come out of near bankruptcy to what it is now. So I find this article questionable since there's a lot of opportunity for Russian innovators to be millionaires to cover this gap they have with any technology or even foreigners to go there to sell it to them. Russia has no lack of skilled labor, inventors or educated people.

Also, Russia is no longer a communist country and there is a lot of tech innovators sitting in Moscow looking for talent or just focusing their market there, since any discovery is going to be a hit to make you a millionaire over there. Hell, even Eaton bought out a Russian company because they were so behind the technology curve with their competition like Siemens. All Russia has to do is wait, it will come to them one way or another. No need for spies.

Re:What is the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

Russian tanks just have to be better than this https://medium.com/war-is-bori... against Ukraine. Those were bought by money of Ukrainian tax payers. Or wait, WTF http://sputniknews.com/militar... - sold by private Ukrainian company. This another funny one - http://thediplomat.com/2015/03... - basically somebody stole 5 Indian fighter jets, out of 40 that were send to Ukraine for upgrade.

Presidents change every 4 years in Ukraine, but their mission stays basically the same - steal as much as you can, divert attention by some crazy bullshit. I've been to Crimea a few years back, public transport in Simfiropol was from nineteen sixties - in more than 10 years since USSR collapse Ukraine did nothing for Crimea development. Could be that this is the actual cause of separatism? Shoving Ukrainian village dialect and equally funny culture (vishivanka?lapti?) probably also played a part - those people used to be part of a nation that defeated Napoleon, Hitler and launched a man into space, just to name a few, and now they are supposed to be proud of nazi collaborationists and a village style t-shirt? Time to end this circus, give Galicia to Poland, rest join with Russia, move capital and all bunch of bureaucrats to Kiev and name resulting country Kievskaya Russia.Wait, I'll roll one more...

Russia is also fucked up - looks like they are building unique joined cristian - muslim proudly multinational theocratic state, lol. With a touch of idiocraty, offcourse. Our next lecture might be on topic of retards and idiots in all branches of Russian government, and influence of their retarded laws and other acts on a daily life of ordinary citizens, observed from a safe distance.

Re: What is the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

the problem with guys like you is the mix of hyperbole with some facts. that means we must assume allyou say is excrement.

adolf also had a superiority complex until he learned about the t34.

also ask your supernut mccain about russkie sams. he can tell a tale haha

Re: What is the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

canada brazil japan korea india

they all build planes.

and airbus is more than france, gelle

Re:What is the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

France? For "France" read "Europe". Fuck's sake. If France qualifies, so does the UK.

Re: What is the point?

[Karmashock]

Riiiight, if I don't bow down and acknowledge that some has been bunch of blow hards aren't washed up then I must be a Nazi?

Your point is so stupid that I don't know where to start with it.

First, my points were not hyperbole and you didn't point out anything that was... you just vaguely referred to something as hyperbole. This of course conveniently protects you from analysis because no one can be sure what the hell you're talking about. Your entire post boils down to little more than a stupid insult that doesn't make sense.

Second, I love that you're going with Godwin's law. Good work on that one. This is something children in my country are taught not to do because it makes them sound stupid. Just saying.

Third, I like that you're using a reference source that you're insulting at the same time. If McCain is a nut, then why are you referencing him? What is more, you're referring to McCain's old war history? You do know what "time" is right? Let me put it this way for you... are you threatened by a Roman Legionnaire? You know the guys in bronze armor that carried short swords and big shields? They were really impressive once... and today they'd be meat. Can you imagine an army of thousands of Roman Legionnaires charging a modern army? They'd all die to a man without even making contact with their enemy.

Why is that? Is it because they're not couragous? Nope. What about training? Nope.

TECHNOLOGY.

Your T34 tank for example is obviously not impressive in the 21st century. Well, neither is the rest of your technology because it is mostly 20 to 30 years out of date. And what you have that is newer is mostly garbage meant to look good but not actually useful.

We do actually watch you people. We have some of your newest fighters. We bought them. We have tested them. We know what they can do. We are not even remotely intimidated by you.

The biggest problem with Russia is that it is just such a giant waste of time. There is nothing to be gained from Russia. It is just an endless irritation. its like having crap thrown at you by homeless people. You could go out there and beat them up... but would it be worth it? No... and you'd get hobo cooties all over yourself.

The US does not engage with Russia because it would be expensive and pointless.

We don't want to fight you. We want you to stop causing problems and behave yourselves. You can make money and possibly pull your crappy country together if you stop doing stupid things. But if Russia will not stop acting aggressively, then it will find trade opportunities dry up, it will find capital investment stop, and it will find its diplomatic relationships fall apart.

Russia is already poor. And beating your chest and bragging about your pathetic military isn't going to make you richer. The only people that are actually scared of you are some even poorer eastern Europeans that still haven't recovered from the last time you idiots were running their part of the world.

Stop it. Back off. We're fixing the crap you broke. It will take at least a generation. And then you can shake your dicks at the eastern europeans all you like and they won't be any more frightened at that point then anyone else.

Re:What is the point?

[Karmashock]

Meh, everyone wants to re fight old wars. The Russians are nostalgic for their tank battles with the Nazis so they love their tanks. But they're not credible weapons without air superiority.

What is more, there are a lot of man portable anti tank weapons that will drop a tank.

You don't have to wipe them all out, you just have to cause such punishing attrition that the Russians run a cost benefit analysis and realize they're losing more than they could possibly gain.

We could ship a lot of tow missiles to the Ukrainians along with some night vision goggles. Tow missiles coming out of no where at 2 AM should encourage the Russians to pull their tank columns back.

As to Ukraine being a hot mess... that is indisputable. However, it won't be improved by the Russians casting their influence over it since corruption in eastern europe generally increases as you get closer to Russia not farther away from it. And in Russia itself, corruption is quite bad.

Ukraine's only hope is getting away from Russia long enough to reform itself.

Re:What is the point?

[Karmashock]

If all it took to build a credible high tech military weapons platform was some CnC machines then enthusasts in Kansas would be turning out F22 fighter planes for the lolz.

So no. The top level military hardware requires a level of expertise the Russians don't have.

The US has it.
The Chinese have it.
The British have it.
The French have it... sorta.
The Germans have it.
The Israelis have it.
The Japanese have it.

I don't think anyone else really has it.

As to Russia's booming economy in software and electronics... really?

When was the last time anyone actually bought any of these services?

Let us say I'm a major multinational corporation, am I going to host my data center in Russia? Hell no.

What about software design, will I outsource development of my company database or something to a Russian firm? No. Maybe to someone in India. Because Russia is so low that India f'ing towers over Russia in its credibility and trustworthiness. Think about that. And that is no insult to India but India not long ago was a very primitive country. And yet for all of Russia's apsirations of sophistication, India has a brighter future at this point then does Russia. Which is pathetic because Russia had more going for them in the last century and Russia has VASTLY more resources. And yet... Russia can't stop screwing up all their opportunities to succeed.

it is baffling to me. I am struggling to see how Russia managed to be so poor given their opportunities to be so rich. Russia should be the second if not first largest economy in the world. They have prime real estate between Europe and East Asia. Trains could run through Russia to carry the collective trade between those areas. The US would be very happy to trade heavily with Russia if they weren't corrupt, incompetent, and violent... look at our trade with the Chinese. All of that could have been Russia's.

Russia had this great scientific gift in that they got all those Nazi scientists that taught them how to build rockets etc. They had so many gifts. And they've squandered them all.

Russia's PPP is about 24 thousand per person depending on how you calculate it. Which is puts them below a lot of third world countries in their economic development. Think about how sad it is that countries that with a high proportion of the population that don't wear shoes are doing better than Russia at this point. Baffling.

As to the proportion of their economy occupied by various industries... From what I can tell, nearly all their economy is associated with commodities... mostly oil. Which means that 24 thousand per person... is mostly oil. I'm confused... who do you think is buying a Russian computer? Why would anyone do that when you have the US and the Chinese collectively dominating the market?

And software? what piece of software do people use that was developed in Russia? Do they have an operating system that isn't just a repackaged version of something we made? I don't think so.

Dude. They are jokes. And not funny ones... the sad kind.

Re:What is the point?

[Karmashock]

... I don't understand what you're saying.

First, so what if they make their own planes? I didn't say they didn't. They're just not very good.

Second, would I rather have no competition for military power? Yes... obviously. Competition for military power is not in my interest. The less competition for miltiary power there is the less likely war becomes. The more competition for military power there is the more likely war becomes and you get arms races and other stupid shit. So yes... I do not want competition for my weapons of death and destruction. This is a silly question on your part.

As to the US not doing anything if it isn't getting threatened by Russia... our most productive economic period was actually before the world wars. We are quite capable of thriving in peace.

Re:What is the point?

[Karmashock]

The former seat of communism is now calling itself conservative? You people are funny. Bring back the Tsar before you call yourself a conservative.

As to "nice women"... what does that even mean?

You do again realize that a lot of feminist crap we're dealing with in the US was inflicted on us by the damned soviets. A fair number of the feminist professors in those women's studies programs are self described communists.

So... explain to me how we're bad because you gave us your diseases?

As to leaving the Russians be... I am perfectly happy to do that. Can they please stop invading and annexing their neighbors? If they would stop doing that, I could go back to pretending they don't exist.

Re:What is the point?

[guacamole]

Armata T-14 is a fourth generation tank platform because it has a fully automated turret, with tank crew in a specially protected capsule. All weapons fully automated. This project is a stepping stone on the way to producing a fully automated, crew-less tank. So yes, it's the first fourth generation tank.

What important about Russian fifth generation fighter jet PAK FA and the Armata tank platform, as well as the Kurganets IFV platform is that the Russian military industrial complex not only can improve upon such excellent Soviet designs such as the Su-27 fighter jets, T-90 tanks, and BMP-3 IFV (arguably the best IFV in the world), but that it can actually produce entirely new designs instead of just minor tweaks to old Soviet platforms. So this IS big stuff for Russia. Russia, along with USA and China are the only countries in the world actively developing the next generation military technologies.

And it is truly laughable to hear from the internet "experts" how much Russian PAK FA, the fifth generation fighter jet, sucks. Give me a break. This is a work in progress. The military trials haven't finished yet. You also forget about the relative worth vs absolute worth of the weapon systems. American military industrial complex and Pentagon always want to deliver systems with class leading capabilities but at a horrendous cost and price/performance. Russians always aim to produce a solution providing 80-85% of capabilities of the best US weapon, but at half the cost or less. That's because in Russia, the military industrial complex serves its state. In USA, the state serves its military industrial complex and fills the pockets of the corporate fat-cats behind it.

Re:What is the point?

[guacamole]

I have very much a cynical view of both. Ukraine is just as corrupt as Russia. They have their own "oligarch" quasi-criminal class, pretty much merged with the government elites, and a strong unitary government, that's no more democratic than Russian. Journalists, businessmen, and politicians are and have always been murdered in Ukraine just as frequently, if no more frequently, than in Russia. Perhaps, the only difference is that they have not setup a police state in Ukraine, so transitions of power, often by the mean of some kind of chaotic "revolutions" do happen on regular basis.

Re:What is the point?

[Karmashock]

Having an automated turret does not mean that your tank will outclass the previous generation. I grant that it is a good thing to have.

The only thing I'm seeing with the T-14 is that it is claiming an effective range of something like 5 kilometers with its main gun. Where as the Abrams claims about 2.5.

That is a big difference but it is not confirmed.

What is more, under what scenario would a US Abrams go up against a Russian T-14 Armata? This notion of some sort of solo duel one tank versus another is unrealistic. They would both engage under combined arms conditions. Neither force would get near the enemy's battle tanks until they had air superiority. At which point the attacking tanks would be supported by ground support bombers, attack helicopters, etc.

So this obsession Russia has with their tanks is frankly silly. Their tanks were last relevant in WW2. The Russians have this nostagia with their defeat of the German army and they basically want to keep fighting the same war over and over again.

All military powers have this problem. The British wanted to fight the napoleonic war all over again during parts of WW1 and were very slow to accept that the battleship was obsolete in WW2.

The US has an over reliance on aircraft carriers because to some extent we want to fight the pacific campaign all over again.

None of these biases are rational. The wars of the future will not be the wars of the past. The Russian tank is largely pointless. It is a weapon designed for a war that won't happen.

What will engage the T14 is more than anything is man portable anti tank rockets fired from concealment at a relatively close range.

Now, does the T14 have defenses against that/ I'm sure it does. But those defenses are not any better than most modern tanks especially when you take into consideration that many anti tank rockets already make a point of attacking targets from above. That is, an attacker fires the missile at a tank, the missile then rises above the tank, and then plunges down. The armor of nearly all tanks is thin on the top, the bottom, and the rear. The heaviest armor is on the front with less thick armor on the sides. But the armor on the bottom, top, and rear is generally quite thin.

An anti tank armor piercing shaped charge hitting one of those sides will go right through most of the time.

And we don't even need to get into the slaughter if the tanks don't have air superiority. Air based weapons platforms will annihilate any tank formation.

Now here you'll say "but what if we the ground units have portable SAMs?"... you'd have to spot the enemy to kill them.

The US is a master of air superiority. It is what we do. Just as the Monguls were masters of the mounted archer and the British were masters of heavy ship naval combat... The US is a master of air superiority.

We are very good at it.

So what would we do if you had lots of sams?

1. We'd saturate the area with electronic warfare cruise missiles. Sometimes called "wild weasels" We've had these since vietnam but they've grown more sophisticated over time. Their job is to "look" like airplanes and bombers to enemy sensors. They will fly in formations or look like they're doing bombing runs or something. But what they're actually doing is triggering enemy ground defenses.

2. When enemy ground defenses respond to what they think is an attack, a combined strike of cruise missiles and stealthed ground support bombers will attack enemy radar and SAM launchers. To survive this you would either have to destroy/evade the cruise missiles before they destroyed your defenses. And then you'd have to either destroy and evade the laser guided bombs from the stealthed ground support bombers. And on top of that, you really need to destroy the actual bombers if you can. And that doesn't even get into our drones etc.

3. At this point, ground based missile batteries are diminished to such an extent they can be ignored and air superiority fighter will occupy the space to prot

Re:What is the point?

[Karmashock]

If being corrupt were an excuse to invade and annex countries, the US would have invaded and annexed pretty much every country south of the border.

No one is saying Ukraine is a well run country. What people are saying is that Russia has no right to invade it.

Now that said, I DO think that some sort of long term leasing agreement should exist with Ukraine and Russia for sea ports etc in the Crimea. That is, Russia will pay a leasing fee... and Ukraine will for... say 100 years give Russia access to the sea ports. After 100 years, those agreements could be reassessed. If relations are good between Ukraine and Russia than they'll be renewed. If they're not... then they won't be.

I "DO" think that Russia has some argument for having part of Crimea. It was always part of Russia and I believe it was only added to Ukraine under the soviets as some sort of political gimmick.

So it is reasonable to me that that be returned IF the people in that area vote to return to Russia and if in return for that Russia agrees to leave Ukraine the fuck alone after that. If they don't... then all bets are off and the Russians are signaling they want to see who is better at knifing whom in the dark.

The West is quite good at knifing people in the dark. I don't know why the Russians always under estimate us there. They apparently want the US to retask the CIA to start playing games with them again.

Whatever.

Re:What is the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

The West is quite good at knifing people in the dark. I don't know why the Russians always under estimate us there. They apparently want the US to retask the CIA to start playing games with them again.

If you look at it from Russian point of view The West used stick quite often, even more when Russia was friendly and naive like a pink pony (like in 90's), and carrot is somehow always not in range. Russia is still to big to be reliable remotely controlled by The West, so weakness will lead to another collapse and the following wars all around the place.

And anyway the final pointless battle for the last drops of oil and scraps of metal is probably not very far ahead.

Re:What is the point?

[Karmashock]

First, the Russians are in error then... explain how we were mean to them in the 90s? We forgave them for the Cold War. We offered them investment opporutnities. We offered them partnership in a joint space program through the international space station.

Tell me what we did that was mean to the Russians in the 90s? And seeing that the people they abused during the cold war were given the opportunity to find their own destiny away from Russia is not mean. That is compassion. There are more people that matter besides just Russia. Russia has to have some feeling for the people they hurt.

As to Russia not being controllable, I don't know what you mean. Please rephrase so I know what you mean.

As to final battles... unlikely. WW3 is coming. But it won't doom humanity. It will just doom every country that participates in it.

So... South Africa and Brazil might become the super powers of the new world if the US, Russia, China, and Europe are wiped out.

If I were president of the US, my goal would be to disentange the US from as many defense obligations around the world as possible and then bolster US defenses on the assumption that a world war was going to come eventually. Possibly not for 50 or 100 years. But I do not want what happened to the British Empire to happen to my country. And the only way to avoid that is to get out of the way. Let whomever abuse and murder whomever else. And when they've burned themselves out on that horror, the US can help rebuild.

I would feel differently were it not for nuclear weapons. But with them in play... the US cannot afford to get drawn into another world war.

We have been drawn into 3 consecutive global conflicts that had nothing to do with us. WW1 was between England and Germany. WW2 was basically the same thing all over again only with Japan as well. And then the cold war which was basically a world war had nothing to do with us either. It was between various weak powers around the world... mostly more of the european collapsing colonies getting gobbled by Stalin's murder machine.

The US didn't have to be in any of these conflicts.

We could have remained neutral in every one of these wars.

We didn't. We fought for what we felt was right.

But the next big war is going to be a nuclear exchange. We can't be in that. There will be no winners of that war. Only losers.

Re:What is the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

Get a job.

Re:What is the point?

[guacamole]

I wouldn't disagree that any territorial re-partitions should have happened peacefully. Russia should not have annexed Crimea and invaded other parts. But honestly, I also think decades of inept Ukrainian governance and occasional comical rule by west Ukrainian nationalists have precipitated this conflict. Ukraine from day one should have adopted the "Swiss model", by acknowledging that it is an ethnic multilingual state, allowing each region to have a second official language in addition to Ukrainian, as well as elements of self rule (e.g. letting people elect their regional governors). But whenever, nationalists were in power, they always wanted to antagonize russian-speakers one way or another. Now as a result, Russia bluntly took advantage of the situation.

Re:What is the point?

[guacamole]

The "future" war you speak about will never happen. But there have been many conflicts in post-soviet space, where tanks and armor have proven to be both useful. It always cracks me up when there is a discussion about a new tank, there are "internet experts" who proclaim that tanks are obsolete. Well, who is going to pick the fight with the USA? Probably no one, but in all other conflicts, the tanks can be damn useful, and that's why Russia and even Ukraine sold heaps of them. In fact, even conventional tank-vs-tank battles do not happen that often, what we see is many asymmetrical conflict, where one of the sides does not have much armor, but a good quantity of anti-tank weapons. In such setting, the current generation of Soviet-derived tanks have often experienced horrendous loss, just enough to look at Syria or Ukraine wars. So the new Russian tank is probably meant far more to address such settings than a mythical abrams vs other tank conflicts.

I am not sure why you consider me Russian but ok. Russia wants to gobble up Ukraine not for profits, but to prevent NATO expansion into it. You have to first admit that this whole mess and the conflict between the West and Russia is a direct result of relentless and aggressive NATO expansion. There was a handshake agreement when USSR withdrew that NATO will not go beyond Germany. NATO gobbled up all of east Europe, some post-Soviet states, and now wants Ukraine and Georgia. The Ukrainian coup was sponsored and supported diplomatically and politically by USA, down to USA diplomats delivering sandwiches to the protesters in Kiev's Maidan (not just this time, but also in 2004). Russia had to say enough is enough at some point, so they did in 2008 and 2014. Want to end this conflict? The west has to tell Ukraine firmly that it can not join NATO, and that Ukrainian nationalists should tone down their maximalist rhetoric and demands. The American involvement simply adds more fire to this conflict, and is also the cause of this conflict.

Re:What is the point?

[cheesybagel]

The only thing I'm seeing with the T-14 is that it is claiming an effective range of something like 5 kilometers with its main gun. Where as the Abrams claims about 2.5.

That's nothing special. The Russians have supported missile launching from the gun tube for quite some time (that's how they get that range). Heck the T-80 and T-64 could do it. e.g. the Refleks missile. The US used to have something similar with the Sheridan tank which could fire the Shillelagh missile. If the US needed something like that in a hurry they could just license the Israeli LAHAT missile which can be fired from a 120mm NATO gun.

Now, does the T14 have defenses against that/ I'm sure it does. But those defenses are not any better than most modern tanks especially when you take into consideration that many anti tank rockets already make a point of attacking targets from above. That is, an attacker fires the missile at a tank, the missile then rises above the tank, and then plunges down. The armor of nearly all tanks is thin on the top, the bottom, and the rear. The heaviest armor is on the front with less thick armor on the sides. But the armor on the bottom, top, and rear is generally quite thin.

Modern tanks have active protection systems like the Russian Shtora-1 system. I still remember the last time people said tanks were obsolete back in the 1990s. Then Black Hawk down happened in Somalia and a lot of Delta Force guys in light vehicles and jeeps died in the middle of Mogadishu to AK-47 and RPG-7 fire. Something which could have been avoided had they had heavy tanks. Then the War on Iraq happened and you saw Jeeps and M113 APCs fail horribly against IEDs, suicide cars and the like. Same think happened in the Second War on Chechnya. Tanks are *NOT* obsolete.

I have my doubts about that T-14 turret. It's too tall and full of shot traps IMO. But the idea of the separate crew compartment and remote weapon station seems good.

Re:What is the point?

[cheesybagel]

Oh and when you claim the Russians are fighting WW2 with their emphasis on tanks a lot of people say the same about the US Navy and their emphasis on aircraft carriers in a world of satellites and prompt launch ICBMs. But to each his own.

Re:What is the point?

[cheesybagel]

What about software design, will I outsource development of my company database or something to a Russian firm? No

Oracle does a lot of development in Russia. So perhaps you're using Russian developed software and don't even know about it.

Re:What is the point?

[cheesybagel]

Russian semiconductor hardware sucks donkey balls though.

Re:What is the point?

[Karmashock]

Oh they're missiles?... lolz. Okay. That's different. I was thinking that was the range of their main gun.

If they want to play the missile game... the US would just throw cruise missiles at them which means you're looking at a range of about 250+ miles.

As to tanks being obsolete, depends on what you're doing.

And I should point out, that those engagements in the middle east showed more a need for APCs rather than tanks. The issue was not the need for a heavy long range gun but rather for an armored car that wouldn't get shredded by smalls arms and IEDs.

I'll also point out that APCs have a more uniform armor profile. Mainline battle tanks have very heavy armor on their fronts but less heavy elsewhere. APCs to the contrary have a more uniform armor distribution with armor being spread around the back the bottom and the top.

IEDs come from BELOW which generally makes heavy tanks vulnerable to them because the armor on the bottoms of such tanks isn't anywhere near as thick as on the front.

So, if you want to talk about the need for APCs when moving infantry through urban battlespace... sure.

However, in any engagement with the Russians we'll not be doing that. We're not fighting the Russians house to house. And I really don't think we're even going to put our infantry on the ground.

We can whack their armor from the air and while we can't kill their infantry efficiently from the air, the Russians are not going to advance without their armor. They love that crap.

The Russians like their tanks like the US likes its planes. We don't advance without air power.

it is merely unfortunate for the Russians that air power beats tanks. Tanks are large enough that ground attack bombers can see them and target them. They're also valuable enough to be worth the jet fuel and precision guided munitions.

Re:What is the point?

[Karmashock]

As to Russians tanks versus poor eastern European nations with no back up.

Sure... you can use sledge hammers to kill babies.

But then the old Russian tanks would have been just as good for that. Saddam's tanks that we killed by the hundred in Gulf War 1 would be fine for that.

There are a few things the US could do that would stop this bullshit cold.

1. We could establish a Korean style DMZ between Russia and eastern Europe. Anti tank mines etc. Then we could give the locals a mixture of SAM batteries and man portable anti armor rockets.

That would make it very hard for the Russians to come in quickly and would encourage them to use more infantry rather than armor and aircraft. And that would further slow them down and further increase their attrition in human lives.

The expense to the US to do such a thing would be minimal.

It would make the Russians furious but they have no right to dictate whether someone on their own sovereign land builds defenses against Russian intimidation.

As to why I considered you Russian, you said something that made it sound like you were.

As to why the Russians want to gobble Ukraine, it doesn't matter because NATO is no threat to Russia. NATO is a defensive alliance. Russia need only fear NATO expansion if they intend to conquer those lands in the future.

Saying they're only invading to stop NATO expansion ignores that they'd only fear NATO expansion if they wanted to conquer those lands anyway.

As to USSR agreements... those were not in perpetuity. The US did not sweep in immediately and push NATO into all those countries. We could have.

Most of them wanted it. We held back to give the Russians time to form new relationships with those countries and try to encourage them to join their sphere of influence.

The russians used that time to intimidate, threaten, and extort their neighbors. So no one wants to be part of their sphere because it just means getting threatened and extorted. That is on the Russians. That is their fault. And yeah... there is a price to be paid.

if the Russians want more countries to like them and want to do business with them then they can stop being such raging fucking retards.

Re:What is the point?

[Karmashock]

Its possible but I've been in a lot of meetings where such things were discussed and the Russian option was not considered credible. Even the indian idea was dubious.

It comes down to trust. If you're moving hundreds of millions of dollars around... do you really want to let the Somalians into your database? Seems foolish to me.

Re:What is the point?

[cheesybagel]

And I should point out, that those engagements in the middle east showed more a need for APCs rather than tanks. The issue was not the need for a heavy long range gun but rather for an armored car that wouldn't get shredded by smalls arms and IEDs.

No man. If they need a "heavy long range gun" they would get a howitzer not a tank. Tank guns are typically used for mid distance direct fire against other vehicles or fortifications. Tanks are typically used for several missions but the most important ones are anti-vehicle combat and infantry support. It was common during WW2 to rolls tanks ahead of infantry as a moveable shield to protect them from enemy infantry and clean up buildings, etc, in in-city fighting. At the same time the infantry can protect tanks in city fighting from close range RPG rounds, satchel charges, and things like that.

Air power does not replace tanks. You cannot hold ground with aircraft.

Re:What is the point?

[Karmashock]

hey bingo

Re:What is the point?

[cheesybagel]

I'll give you an example. During the First Chechen War the Russians sent their infantry and APCs (e.g. BDR armored wheeled vehicles not unlike the Striker) into Grozny. The results were quite horrible. In the Second Chechen War they used WW2 style tactics (hah!) and sent the heavy tanks in front of the infantry (e.g. T-80s and T-72s). This mostly worked except ERA doesn't play well with infantry. So in their next tanks you see some effort to replace ERA with NERA and things like that.

The US had similar experiences in counter-insurgency fighting and in Iraq. So when you look at the TUSK US Abrams upgrades with the infantry phone in the back (another thing that was used in WW2) and the remote controlled weapon station you know they're meant for city fighting.

Re:What is the point?

[cheesybagel]

Also you can bomb a city to bits but you can't still clean it out of insurgents just like that. The Germans tried that in Stalingrad but the partisans just hide in the sewers and fought amidst the rubble.

Re:What is the point?

[Karmashock]

... alright, but you don't need tanks to do that.

Our close support air power can do everything but the APC part.

You want to destroy a fortification? Drop a guided bomb on it.

You want to destroy a tank column? Drop a bomb on it.

You might argue that it is cheaper to fire a tank shell at something then it is to drop a guided bomb on it.

But there are a lot of things to consider.

1. The tank shells miss a lot. Which means you have to fire more than one. They also aren't that big and for some targets you have to fire many times even if you're hitting it to kill it. Where as we have laser guided bombs that are estimated to be able to take out 40 tanks with a single bomb. They're guided cluster bombs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

2. You have to bring your tanks in range of their tanks or other weapons with some frequency. That raises the risk of actually losing one of your tanks to enemy counter fire.

3. Air power can strike targets FAR behind enemy lines. Back where the enemy isn't even dug in properly. You can destroy enemy formations as they mobilize. you get them on high ways or depots. It is a lot easier to kill a lot of enemy armor in a depot then it is dug into some hillside along the front.

Look, tanks have their uses but they're not as effective or meaningful as they were in WW2. They have been largely eclipsed by air power.

Re:What is the point?

[Karmashock]

It would have been fine if they had built up some defenses. Part of the swiss model is arming your people.

Anyway, if I were them, I would have given up Crimea on the agreement that Russia foreswears any other rights to so much as another inch o Ukrainian land. And then go nationalist Ukraine. Ask the Russians in Ukraine to either become Ukrainian or leave.

Re:What is the point?

[cheesybagel]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B...

Re:What is the point?

[guacamole]

Please. It's quite disingenuous to say that NATO is not an anti-Russian alliance, just like it is disingenuous to say that NATO's missile defense system in Poland or elsewhere in Europe is meant to protect NATO allies from Iranian missiles. To say "you're not our enemy, but we surround you with our bases just in case if 200 years later things change" is as aggressive and expansionist as it gets. By expanding into and militarizing East Europe NATO is doing the same thing that USSR did after WWII. NATO indeed swept in and gobbled up all of east Europe as fast as it could. Less than 10 years after dissolution of USSR, pretty much every east European country a NATO member.

After dissolution of USSR, East European countries like Poland or Estonia were certainly free to choose within which sphere of influence they exist based on economic ties (e.g. joining EU), but without having to enter any military alliances at all. Russia did not bully or extort any of its neighbors, not until after USA-backed coups in Georgia in Ukraine in 2003-2004, when GWB and his neo-con friends started talking about NATO and EU membership for those countries. It's specially ridiculous to try to invite a country like Ukraine into NATO, a country with a huge Russian-speaking population, and many lands that Russians consider parts of their cultural heritage (the historic states of "Kievan Rus", regions like "New Russia" and "Little Russia", Crimea, etc)

Re:What is the point?

[guacamole]

I am sorry but this "take it or leave it" idea to asking Russians to become "Ukrainian or leave" sounds like some kind of a twisted neo-nazi ethnic cleansing idea. It goes beyond the modern European norms of human rights of minorities. And it really cracks me up when Ukrainian or say Estonian nationalists love to say that they share European liberal-democratic values, but are also quick to judge and treat their Russian minority as some kind of "fifth column", people of second rank, while also rehabilitating their nazi-collaborating, Jew-killing nationalist ancestors of WWII era, who were considered traitors under USSR.

And what did Ukraine's Russians do to deserve such "solution"? For one, they're living on their historic homeland of many hundreds years. They're not a "fifth column" like some Russia-haters want to believe. The South East Ukraine was conquered by the Russian empire from Crimean Turks in 18th century, not from Ukrainians (in fact term Ukraine as geographic designation didn't become common until late 19th century). At the time of conquest, it was an empty land as it was the policy of Crimean Turks to keep it empty and use it as free a path to raiding lands in the north for obtaining slaves and loot to be sold into Ottoman Empire. Both Russians and Ukrainians settled it in 18-19th century, and then the Russian Empire and USSR spent a lot of effort on building up and industrializing that area. The area was historically called "New Russia" before the revolution, but by some bizarre twist of history, the early day Soviet Communist, and Lenin in particular, decided to roll former "New Russia" into Ukraine SSR jurisdiction, that that's how it's now part of independent Ukraine.

But anyways, regardless of what the history was, the human rights and the right to self determination should always be respected. So in particular Ukraine's minorities, or any other country, should have a right to cultural autonomy if not outright political one.

Re:What is the point?

[guacamole]

Listening to some Western pundits and analysts about their ideas about what NATO could do to help Ukrainians fight Russian aggression is hilarious. First of all, I don't think it will help to train Ukrainian Army or give them more weapons. Russia will then up its game, give more weapons to the rebels, send more instructors, send regular troops in, if necessary. Putin has already proved in 2008 and 2014 that he will go all the way, as far as necessary to protect Russian interests.

But the most damning reason not to arm Ukrainians is that Ukraine does not have the human resource for this war. The Ukrainian maximalist nationalist youths, the kind who were bused to Kiev to stage the quasi-violent coup there and who are willing to volunteer to fight in the East are few and far in between. Those come from the West Ukraine, the part Stalin took away from Poland and it was historically a hotbed of Ukrainian nationalist. The rest of Ukraine has a mixed Ukrainian-Russian speaking population, with significantly less radical anti-Russian views. The fact that Ukraine is facing a problem with human resources is underscored by the fact that they're increasingly recruiting conscripts and recalling reservists from the more pro-Russian regions of South East Ukraine. I wouldn't estimate the morale of those troops to be very high. Even after being properly dressed, trained, and fed (the necessities Ukrainian troops often don't get), facing the prospect of Russian on Russian violence, many will shirk, surrender, etc.

Re:What is the point?

[Karmashock]

Right, so if I moved to Russia, refused to speak Russian, and then agitated for part for that part of the country to join the United States... and then the Russians said "you need to become russian or leave"... they'd be neo nazis in your eyes?

No.

Look, I'm prepared to accept that Crimea should just be handed to the Russians. But what remains to Ukraine must be theirs. No more bullshit from Russia.

If Russia doesn't like that deal, then fuck them. They can't have Crimea. They can't have Moscow. They can't have Siberia. Why do they get to decide and no one else does? Who lets them decide that bits of other countries belong to them?

No.

This is not how you form a stable country or government or culture. You don't do that by bleaching your asshole and then bending over so you can get fucked in the ass. That's ridiculous.

It is entirely reasonable to ask that the Russians that remain in Ukraine on the western side of the new border become Ukrannian or leave.

That's not ethnic cleansing. No one is gasing them. How dare you. You just compared me to hitler because I suggested that people that want to be citizens of a country should join that country culturally and politically?

Fuck off.

We're done. That is the most fucking stupid thing I've heard all day. How fucking dare you.

Re:What is the point?

[guacamole]

Your reply suggests that you did not read the above post. Like I have said, the South East Ukraine actually has nothing to do with the historic "Ukraine". Before the creation of USSR, today's South East Ukraine was known as "New Russia" from 18th century on. Before 18th century, it was controlled by Tatars, not "Ukrainians" (the name Ukraine is a a Russian word meaning "borderland", and was adopted by a bunch of New Russian intellectuals in order retain a distinct identity from the rest of Russia). In 18th century, the South East Ukraine was an empty land that was settled mostly by Russians, so Russians were there before the word "Ukraine" or "Ukrainians" was even invented. Ask any Russian or European of that time WTF the word "Ukraine" means, and they'd stare at you confused. It was the 1920s communist government of USSR, which did a lot of weird stuff, that awarded this land (the New Russia) to the newly formed Ukraine SSR (soviet socialist republic). In the 1950s, Khruschev, an ethnic Ukrainian and effectively the ruler of USSR, also had Crimea transferred into Ukraine SSR allegedly for administrative purposes.

So like I said, I don't understand how one can possibly treat the Russians of Ukraine as some kind of a fifth column and a bunch of people do who don't belong there. Russians of the South East Ukraine came first to that place an long time before "Ukraine" even existed as a geographic or ethnic concept, and the ones who got displaced by Russians were not "the Ukrainians", and Tatars, the real victims of Russian expansionism of that time.

It's also utterly ridiculous of you to argue that ethnic cleansing, deportation, or racism is justified for the sake of a "stability". It's nearly like saying in the 1950s that African-American blacks should have been deported to Africa from the USA for the sake of "stability".

I could give you my version of stability recipee for Ukraine. Either, Ukraine defines itself as a bi-lingual and a bi-cultural country, giving equal recognition to Russian and Ukrainian cultures and languages, at least in the areas of the South East Ukraine, or perhaps Ukraine eventually splits into West Ukraine and East Ukraine, using the Dnepr River as the natural geographic boundary. At this point, the stability will prevail, and the comical and intolerant nationalists of the West Ukraine can transfer their capital to Lvov (which is where most of current Ukraine ruling elite come from) and start building the pure mono-ethnic country of their dreams, where everyone speaks and thinks in Ukrainian, and thinks that former nazi collaborator, guy known as Bandera (the fonder of UPA, the Jew and Pole exterminating organization so vile, that even Poland is disgusted at the attempts to glorify them), is the national icon and hero, while the East Ukraine Russians go back to their mother Russia. At this point everyone will be happy.

Re:What is the point?

[Karmashock]

Your point about what is and is not historic Russia is about a sensible as China's opinion on Taiwan. Does China have a right to annex Taiwan at will?

By your logic they do apparently.

As to Russians in Ukraine... we're going to have to agree to disagree. Again, consider the Taiwan argument... they're all chinese ethnically. But what if there were a subgroup that was sympathetic to the mainland and ultimately hostile to the Republic? What then?

You can't tolerate it. They either integrate or they are an unacceptable liability.

As to ethnic cleansing, this term is generally associated with mass killing. That is why it has a strongly negative moral connotation. To conflate that with simply having people LEAVE without killing is not a sensible argument.

it is also a highly emotional argument that I don't find especially credible.

As to splitting Ukraine, I think I already offered that option. It required that Russia formally renounce any claim on any additional land and that any remaining ethnic Russians in Ukraine either become culturally Ukrainian or cross to the Russian side.

This has been done many times in history and has a very good track record of stability afterwards.

Re:What is the point?

[guacamole]

I do not argue that Russia has the right to annex any part of Ukraine at will. My point has always been that all minorities of all countries have the right for self determination, which does not even necessarily mean the right to secede. But at very least, the minorities in the compact areas of their habitation should have the right for a certain degree of cultural and even political autonomy from the center. So far, Ukraine has not offered this type of deal to its Russian-speaking minority, and this tension has been the source of political divisions in Ukraine for two decades now. They keep having "revolution" after a revolution, switching back and forth from pro-Russian, back to Ukrainian nationalist government in Kiev, while creating a rich ground for Russia to stick its nose in Ukraine politics. So I really do have a cynical attitude to both sides of this conflict, and can't feel entirely sorry for what happens with Ukraine.

Re:What is the point?

[Karmashock]

As to self determination of ethnic minorities, you're ignoring the complicating factors.

1. They're not loyal to Ukraine but rather to Russia. This means they are effectively a fifth column. They're being used by the Russians in that way. Russian special forces are being embedded to train and lead them. And Russian arms and resources are being funneled into their groups.

2. The Russian government is embracing them and using them. This is something like the anode and cathode of a circuit. Without either one you don't have a flow of current. But when both are there a circuit is completed. The Russian response makes this group dangerous to the Ukrainian government.

3. These people have already sided with a foreign power in many cases. That is treason by any definition. And the punishments for actual treason... which this is... are generally quite serious. Exile from the country is actually relatively a mercy. Execution could be justified. On a massive sweeping scale? No... but ring leaders... people that were known to personally have taken up arms... etc.

Once you acknowledge the variables you were not addressing before:

1. Lack of loyality.
2. Russia supporting that lack of loyality.
3. Literal treason having happened.

It changes things.

Lets look at the US for an example so you can see where I'm coming from here.

Lets say the Mexican population flowing into the US were principally loyal to Mexico. Is that a problem? Not in and of itself. Its just the ground for a possible circuit.

Then lets say the Mexico government actively encouraged and supported hostile actions against the US using its immigrant population as a fifth column... This is just theoretical. I'm not saying any of this is happening. I'm just trying to put the situation in a different context so you can see the variables in a new light.

Then lets say the mexicans in the US start actively taking up arms against Americans trying to effectively help mexico annex a portion of the united states.

Okay that is basically what is happening In Ukraine.

Now, if that happened in the US... there would be mass deportations. Not the fake ones we do just to pretend like we're doing it. But millions of people would be forced out of the country.

It would not be tolerated.

And if you want to put that in any other context... think of whether any european country would put up with similar variables?

They wouldn't.

Take the basque people which the Spaniards tolerate. They don't have loyality to Spain but they have no external country that supports them that they'd like to be annexed by... and while some of them have taken up arms it is a very very small portion of the whole.

And you can see Spain's troubled history with them regardless. That's just with ONE variable in place.

In Ukraine you have ALL THREE. If the Basques did what the ethnic Russians did in Ukraine... the Spainards would crack down HARD on them. And I'm talking about modern liberal EU Spain.

Blaming Ukraine for taking a hard line on the ethnic Russians makes no sense.

They don't have a choice.

They can either surrender territory and allow portions of the country to be Annexed or they have to remove the rebels. And if they surrender territory, they have to know that there will be no more concessions made. It has to be a final settlement.

And that means those three variables have to be dealt with:

1. Existing Ethnic Russians that are in western Ukraine if there is a concession of territory would have to become Ukrainian to remove the threat of the issue coming up again as a result of any population friendly to Russia in Ukraine.

2. Russia would have to foreswear any further claims to Ukrainian territory.

3. Anyone that actually took up arms would either need to live in eastern Ukraine which would be annexed by Russia or would have to serve some prison time in western Ukraine.

This is not unreasonable or harsh or intolerant. This is how you resolve this si

Citation?

[forand]

That is pretty damning. Do you have an references that one could read up on the exact situation to which you are referring?

Re:Citation?

[zlives]

F35? gotta wonder what that extra trillion is for ;)

Re:Citation?

[zlives]

fuck and now i am trying to imagine what trillion dollar would look like...

Re:Citation?

[PPH]

Do you have an references

There are a few sentences left here. But hurry up and read them before they edit it further.

Re:Citation?

[afidel]

Here you go, those are $100 bills.

Re:Citation?

[zlives]

i stand corrected
mother fucker!!

And in also in the News

[mrlinux11]

Water is Wet :)

I am shocked by this news

[guacamole]

You mean, there exists a state-sponsored industrial espionage program, often involving shell firms registered in Mediterranean or Caribbean islands better known as summer tourist destinations? Scary shit!

I would never occur that a country like Russia, or perhaps China or India would ever try to do something like this.

Re:Debian Women, and a request(?) of the Rus

[Anonymous Coward]

IS Russia bad.
Yes or NO?!

Export Sensitivity to Russia!

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps the Russian military is fed up with the overly robust Russian technology and wishes to improve their sensitivity training and contribution to family values in Russian society to enforce the role of the civil society in Russia. Yes? No?

Waste of Time

[Anonymous Coward]

The amount of time and brain power the Russians spent trying to steal stuff, and you think they could use those recourses to develop their own stuff!

Re: Waste of Time

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah, imagine how all the us mic people could be put to good use instead of implementing wow collection systems...

They already build their own.

[Anonymous Coward]

http://rostec.ru/en/news/2171