Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Ask Slashdot: Switching Careers From Software Engineering To Networking?

Posted by timothy on from the you'll-need-to-attend-a-lot-of-cocktail-parties dept.

An anonymous reader writes: I am a software engineer with over 10 years of experience making approx 210k a year after bonus. I've seen countless of software engineering jobs off-shored or taken by H1Bs over the past 5 years. While I am pretty safe at my current job, software engineering as a profession is beginning to look bleak, and i am not even sure if I can ask for the same money if I decide to jump ship to another company (I live in an expensive area).

A friend of mine who works as a network architect with dual CCIEs have no problem finding/landing jobs with high salary. His profession doesn't seem to be affected by outsourcing or H1bs, so I am tempted to switch from my field to networking for better stability and greener pastures.

So the question is, should I do it? The reason why I am looking for the long-term stability is because I've a family of 3 to feed. I cannot afford to be jobless for more than 3 months if I do get laid-off, and software engineering doesn't seem to be the profession after years of observation to provide long-term stability. Have a question for Slashdot's readers? Take a look at other recent questions first to see if someone else has had a similar question. And if not, ask away! The more details and context you include, the more likely your question will be selected.

36 of 227 comments (clear)

  1. Where did all the money go by jandjmh · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You need investing advice more than career advice. After 10 years of work you should have much more than a three month cushion -
    It sound like you have fallen into the trap of allowing your expenses to grow to consume all current income. That is going to be hard to reverse, and THAT is what you need some professional help with,

    1. Re: Where did all the money go by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      maybe his wife is into shoes

    2. Re:Where did all the money go by ip_freely_2000 · · Score: 2

      You beat me to it, parent. I don't know how anyone only has three months of savings after a run like that.

    3. Re:Where did all the money go by Gr8Apes · · Score: 2

      Yeah, I'm sorry, no pity here - you're making over 210K / year, and you don't have at least 2 years run rate and a hefty retirement savings account you can fall back on? Sounds like you majorly failed at money management 101 - spend less than you earn and put at least 20% away in savings. BTW, that 20% is for people at an average salary, in your case, no matter where you live, you should be dropping at least 40% into savings, and likely more.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    4. Re:Where did all the money go by Ihlosi · · Score: 5, Insightful
      You need investing advice more than career advice.

      After making 210k/yr and living expenses, OP does not seem to have anything left to invest. Budgeting advice should be a priority.

    5. Re:Where did all the money go by tlambert · · Score: 2

      You need investing advice more than career advice. After 10 years of work you should have much more than a three month cushion -
      It sound like you have fallen into the trap of allowing your expenses to grow to consume all current income. That is going to be hard to reverse, and THAT is what you need some professional help with,

      I totally agree.

      I am more or less "retired", unless someone comes to me with exceedingly interesting work to do, I read, I paint, I draw, I write, I tinker, I vacation, I angel invest, I patent even more stuff, I spend time with smart people, I participate in interesting forums, and I learn more stuff, taking college courses if I have to, etc..

      $4M in savings is more than enough to throw off the $200K+ a year (that's at only 5%) you are currently earning, and as long as you are conscious of cash flow, this just grows over time.

      People who spend all they make are people who never had to eat Cream-O-Wheat with weevils in it, and live on Top Ramen, and Mac and Cheese, and Little Caesar's Pizza, when they were younger. Learn some freaking financial discipline. Come back and "Ask Slashdot" in another 10 years.

    6. Re:Where did all the money go by gunner_von_diamond · · Score: 2

      I was always taught that any type of bonus should be treated like "free money" and saved immediately, not spent or counted towards your yearly income. I bet if OP would just save his bonuses and not use those as a basis for his "normal" income, he could easily achieve much more than a 3 month cushion.

  2. save? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    approx 210k a year after bonus.... I've a family of 3 to feed. I cannot afford to be jobless for more than 3 months if I do get laid-off

    On your salary, you should easily be able to save years of buffer, at the rate of at least a year per year even if you live in an expensive area.

    I have plenty of friends in an average priced area making around $40K/year and supporting families of 4 on that. It doesn't involve owning BMWs or big screen TVs or living in mansions and they penny pinch, but they get by okay on what they have. On over 5X that salary, even if your housing prices are several times higher, you should have no problem at all building a huge buffer for bad times if you need it - even with a more luxurious lifestyle than they are living. Years of buffer should not be a problem except when you are just starting out.

    Perhaps some of the problem is money management, rather than your choice of career?

    1. Re:save? by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A big screen TV is no longer a rich man's luxury. The best displays are about $2,000. If you pay more, either you're paying for a brand, or you are buying a jumbo screen that's 65" or higher. Which even then, it isn't going to exceed $10,000 unless either you buy snake oil shit (think the 'monster cable' of TVs) or you buy something that's so big it can't even fit into the living room of a typical mansion.

      The rich man's luxury these days depends on the kind of rich man you are. Some like coke and sex parties, some like menageries, some like exotic car collections, some like Learjets, some like live-in sushi chefs, and some like to own one of every kind of weapon in existence.

      John Mcafee for example loves coke and sex parties.

    2. Re:save? by sound+vision · · Score: 2

      Is there another kind of party?

  3. It can be done... but what are you ready after?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Doing a job for money, does not for-fill me. I have 5 to feed, so I understand the money side.

    I have seen many in the IT world to be there only for money and NOT skill / passion for job. I work today with a group that mainly in it for money. No future planning on direction of the NETWORK or SOFTWARE. PS: I sit in both worlds.

    If you love networking and think with single point failure issues, go for it.
    If you are just doing it for money, find something else you enjoy. The money will come.

    Been in computers now for 42years, not planning to give that world up any time soon.

  4. You're spending too much money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If you're making 210K/year but are unable to save more than 3 months of living expenses, then you are living way, way beyond your means.

    Yeah, I know that housing is expensive...so what, though -- everyone else in your area is also dealing with expensive housing, and probably most of them are making well under 210K. Given that service workers in your areas are raising a family on 50K-60K a year, you can surely afford to save far more than you currently are.

    1. Re:You're spending too much money by Akaihiryuu · · Score: 2

      That's what I would say too. I make $42k/year right now (although I am single with no children), and after 1.5 years of that I have enough saved to be able to go without work for a year if it's necessary.

  5. Multiple Problems Here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    First and foremost, how can you possibly have let yourself get into a situation where $210k/year has you three paychecks away from being out on the street? You need to make some adjustments to your living situation ASAP -- get your budget under control, eliminate outstanding debts, etc. You are near the very top of the industry for software engineering compensation -- it's not a matter of the market not being stable (there's very high demand), it's that you're quickly pricing yourself out of the market.

    Now onto the meat of your question -- you're not making a fair comparison. What would you think if your dual-CCIE friend saw your position and said they wanted to switch to software engineering because they have a friend with 10 years of experience in a high-level position who is making $210k/year?

    Yes, there are people that make as much as you doing network architecture. That is the absolute top-level cream-of-the-crop of the network engineering industry. It takes 10+ years of experience to get there. You will not be there on day one, and you probably wouldn't be there after 5-10 years of hard work, either, unless you get extraordinarily lucky. Your software engineering skills have nothing to do with network engineering at any level, let alone network architecture, so you will start out in entry-level roles making 50-70k/year while you gain experience. You may get to the point after 5-7 years where you're clearing 100k if you're positioned properly and very lucky with the experiences you've gained.

    Yes, network engineering is a great profession. No, you won't establish the same standard of living immediately, quickly, or even at all. Fix your personal problems and get your current life under control before you look at doing a major thing like shifting careers when you're currently at the height of your first career.

    1. Re:Multiple Problems Here by tlambert · · Score: 3, Informative

      First and foremost, how can you possibly have let yourself get into a situation where $210k/year has you three paychecks away from being out on the street? You need to make some adjustments to your living situation ASAP -- get your budget under control, eliminate outstanding debts, etc. You are near the very top of the industry for software engineering compensation -- it's not a matter of the market not being stable (there's very high demand), it's that you're quickly pricing yourself out of the market.

      Actually, no. I routinely get 2X that offers.

      And yes, he freaking needs to budget.

      The problem is that "delayed gratification" is no longer a concept these days.

  6. First world problems... by sydneyfong · · Score: 5, Insightful

    210k salary and you can't feed a family of 3.

    Software engineering jobs are in ever more demand today, and you're talking about bleak prospects in a job which you say isn't going to fire you any time soon.

    You talk about stability and jumping ship from a safe job in the same sentence.

    Hmm.

    Actually, what do you want? Or maybe you just hate software engineering as a job or career?

    --
    Don't quote me on this.
  7. Um...210k? And 3 months? by bradley13 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Sorry, I know this is going to sound "holier than thou", but it's still true: high cost area or not, if you can't live more than 3 months without a salary - and you're pulling down 210k (US$, right?) - then your first efforts need to go into a hard look at your financial priorities. With that salary, you ought to be able to put quite a bit aside - it certainly shouldn't be hand-to-mouth anymore. Even in a high-cost area, that's all true.

    Brief aside: I assume you are in the US, where there is a lot of peer pressure to buy some awful McMansion that stresses your salary. This is a societal problem and one worth resisting. Even with 3 kids, you do not need 5000 square feet of house. Get a smaller, comfortable place to live and put you money somewhere more useful. If you're married, obviously your spouse needs to agree with this...

    As for moving to networking, it all depends on how good you actually are. If you are worth 210k/year, then you are not easily replaceable. OTOH, if you have the feeling that you landed in the gravy by accident, because you aren't actually worth that kind of salary, then maybe you do want to change...

    --
    Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
  8. wow, no lie by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

    You should be able to afford to raise a family on half of that, even in the Bay Area... unless you keep buying new cars, bought a house you couldn't afford... and generally just represent the kind of person who the people who grew up in the area you moved into despise.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    1. Re:wow, no lie by bleckywelcky · · Score: 3, Insightful

      > You should be able to afford to raise a family on half of that, even in the Bay Area... unless you keep buying new cars, bought a house you couldn't afford... and generally just represent the kind of person who the people who grew up in the area you moved into despise.

      Actually, that's not true. Half that is $105k. Rent in the SF Bay for a 2 bed / 2 bath apartment within 30 minutes of that $105k job is going to costs you minimum $2.5k a month, more likely even $3k. So that's $36k a year, after tax. Your marginal rate at $105k is likely the 28% bracket. So $50k * 72% = $36k means it costs you $50k of your pre-tax income to pay for rent. Take the other $50k, chop off another 7.65% for OASDI / Med taxes = another $8k. State income tax will run another 5% ish, so another $5k. Suddenly your $105k has been dropped down to around $40k for the basic set of rent and taxes. And that's before you've even had a chance to pay for anything else - food, utilities, car, insurance, etc. And before you've put anything into savings.

      I remember thinking back in the early 2000s that the "6 figure income" was the pinnacle of climbing out of the middle class into the start of the upper class. But the sad reality today is that with monetary inflation, demand inflation for living expenses, globalization, etc ... $100k is barely middle class anymore across many of the major metro areas in the United States. In the minor metro areas across the country, where populations in a 20 mile radius are under say 50k, you can still survive quite nicely on an $80k-ish income. But in major metro areas, especially with a family, that is not true anymore.

    2. Re:wow, no lie by davester666 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      1. Way to mix the numbers up. You managed to work the numbers both ways, multiplying up to make an expense include taxes, while also dividing salary down to remove taxes, making the numbers really confusing
      2. You cut his salary in half, then at the end claim there isn't much left to save. The half you cut is "savings".
      3. 40k a year for the rest [food, utilities, car, etc] isn't crazy cheap. You don't have to scrimp every penny just to get by. Sure, you don't get to fly to EuroDisney for 3 weeks each year, but you totally can get by with that. If you want to.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
  9. I went the other way. by GrantRobertson · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I got out of networking because it is too high stress. All you do is put out fires all day. None of the network equipment I ever used actually did everything the vendor said. All of the software you will have to support is crap, and you can't rewrite it.

    Networking is an entirely different skill set. Almost none of your current skills, other than management, will transfer. So that may be your best path. Go for a job as a CIO. You can manage big projects, help them avoid crappy software purchases, and not have to learn a thing about actual networking.

    1. Re:I went the other way. by dancomfort · · Score: 2

      A very important point about the skill set. As a network support person, I considered my self the digital equipment of a plumber. No one noticed me if I did my job well, but all hell would break loose if I screwed up!

      They is also very little creativity. Most networks are already designed, so the job is basically maintenance, with none of they day by day rewards of finishing a piece of software.

    2. Re:I went the other way. by Shadow99_1 · · Score: 2

      I'd go further and say Networking is hardly immune to H1B's either... The networking departments at all the big companies (fortune 500) in my area are 90% H1B imports rather than 'native born' Americans. On applications for new networking jobs here the last 3 years have added a line asking if I would need sponsorship to stay in the US if I worked for them and it seems to coincide with the trend of the big companies not to hire Americans. I live between Buffalo, Cleveland, and Pittsburgh (those cities make a handy triangle where I've worked) and it's become chronic here.

      So yes, I'd suggest he goes for being the CIO. Companies tend to not outsource executives, so he's much safer there if he can successfully break into a market filled by business people.

      --
      we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
    3. Re:I went the other way. by rthille · · Score: 2

      Not to mention that the software that the company I work for is writing (NFV stuff) will put networking professionals out of jobs before too long...

      --
      Awesome furniture, accessories and cabinetry in Santa Rosa, CA: http://humanity-home.com/
  10. You are 20 years too late by wyattstorch516 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Seriously, the late 90s was the time to hop on the CCIE gravy train. Back then it was practically a license to print money, today it will not guarantee you any job much less a high paying one. The networking field has reached a sort of rough equilibrium where the number of people working in it is nearly the same as the number of jobs. If you have many years of experience in complex networking environments then you can still command top pay. But if you do not have that then it is not worth pursuing. There are a ton of people out there trying to break into the networking industry and a limited number of entry level jobs.

    There are no full-time networking jobs out there in small and medium sized businesses. Large companies may hire a small handful of them but that is it. The jobs are primarily with vendors, ISPs, and consulting firms. You had better have verifiable high-end experience or close personal ties to get into one of those gigs. Otherwise it will be a relatively low-paying NOC job waiting for a higher position to open up and hope that somebody will give you a chance.

    I think your biggest problem is that you have the "grass is always greener' mindset right now. You are unhappy in your job so you are looking elsewhere. A better plan would be to look into other areas of software engineering where your past experience can be helpful.

  11. Maybe by Anonymous+Psychopath · · Score: 3, Insightful

    First, ignore the people who just want to shit all over you for making more money than them. They don't know anything about your situation and aren't qualified to comment. Savings and cash flow are two entirely different things, as I'm sure you know.

    I've been in networking for about 20 years. I don't have a CCIE, but I've passed the written three times and sat for the lab once (I took a sales path instead). I have intimate knowledge of CCIE compensation. Starting level for a CCIE is around $135K, depending on where you live and what exactly you're doing. I believe there are salary surveys published every few years on this topic.

    You will absolutely need extensive experience to become a network architect, though. The certifications would not be enough. Obtaining a CCIE is strenuous and would most likely require those years of experience anyway. You can do it, but it will take time and you will take a pay cut while you build your portfolio. Be aware, though, that networking is not immune to the outsourcing issues you're seeing in software.

    As career changes go, networking is not a bad choice, but it won't be an immediate lateral move in terms of comp.

    --

    Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

  12. What makes you think that? by SecurityTheatre · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A couple of things come to mind beyond your current financial situation.

    1) Dual CCIE is the absolute pinnacle of the field. Out of 50 million people in the world who do IT work, the 600-ish people in the world who have this combination of certifications are the top of their field. It generally takes 8-10 years of experience and dedicated study to get to this level. Did you think you would just walk in and get a CCIE in 3 months? The lab itself costs several thousand $$ and requires you to fly to California, where you do an 8-hour long practical exam. It's the top cert among Cisco's 15-18 different certs. Most people get at least 4 others before a CCIE.

    2) A quick google on this topic turns up this quote, which is very apt: "Given equal intellectual capabilities and work ethic, 20 years of hands-on costs a lot more to an employer than 3 years of hands-on with 2 CCIEs, in most cases. Also, in most cases, a better investment." Ask your friend what his real world experience and the number of times he's deployed large scale complex WANs and various other technologies and remember that having that experience with dozens of networks is what makes him valuable. The cert is just the proof.

    3) If you switch fields, you will start at $50-60k. That's what they pay network engineers with no experience. After 10 years and 6 or 8 certifications leading up to a CCIE, the median salary is $165k. Making $210 is very lucrative. I would find ways to save money now, rather than try to switch careers.

    4) Your dream that somehow computer networking is immune to H1B is asinine. They will be outsourced and replaced at the same rate, with the same drivers and the same goals and outcomes.

    1. Re:What makes you think that? by wyattstorch516 · · Score: 2

      Your numbers on the multiple CCIE holders are off quite a bit.The count is over 3500 and growing. Not to take away from your other points but I think it shows that the field is much more heavily saturated then some people think.

      http://d2pvz33nyw2w7z.cloudfro...

  13. From Experience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    I am a software guy who switched into networking 15 years ago and became one of the top-tier network architects. I changed back into software about 6 years ago because of where the industry is headed (and my skill set fit it perfectly). Being a network engineer (even CCIE) does not have a long future as a career (unless you just want to run cabling). Everything but running cables is being automated over the next decade. If your friend is not aware of this, there is a real awakening coming very soon for him.

    Sure, there will continue to be a handful of high end network architects, but most of what network engineers do will be replaced by software written by Software Engineers. If you want to break into networking, do it as a software expert (at your salary band, that sounds like what you are). Configuring networks is really not much different than writing very simple software -- just a bunch of objects (routers, switches) with attributes that define flow.

    Learn how networks function, and find a job writing software to replace the network people -- coming from someone doing this: your current salary band is easily achievable in networking if you are doing it as a software guy. As a pure network guy, you need to be at the very top to reach that level, and it isn't going to last long.

  14. Networking is like plumbing: mostly boring by mveloso · · Score: 2

    Just to warn you, networking is ultra-boring. Do you think software engineering is bad? Networking is worse. You don't really make everything - you spend most of your time trying to get configurations to work, working around bugs in firmware, or figuring out how some numbskull screwed up the various configs.

    It is, basically, plumbing.

    That's not to say it isn't important, but if you're actually good at software engineering you'll probably find networking ultra-tedious. Do you really want to learn the ins and outs of the OSI stack? All the weird things about hooking Cisco gear to other gear? Troubleshooting connectivity issues due to someone plugging a switch into itself?

    Just writing about it makes me want to lobotomize myself.

  15. start a side business by vinn · · Score: 2

    Want some insulation? Start a side business. A friend and I both started separate businesses about 18 months ago. Him, because he wanted to. Me, because I had to. His business, really a side business, is beekeeping. Mine is IT consulting, but I have a very specific focus based on a specific thing here. We're both doing really well and last weekend we compared notes. We've both kind of knew this, but this is the conclusion we came to: His day job isn't the most thrilling and has ups and downs through the year, but he loves his side business. Me, I have a stable new business, but I might consider getting full time employment somewhere just to make my commute easier, however I love the business so much I'd have to keep parts of the work as a side business. Most people in other parts of the world seem to work like this. End result - side business is f*cking awesome and most people just seem too lazy to do it.

    --
    ----- obSig
  16. Okay everyone, let's all post our salaries by Rinikusu · · Score: 2

    because we gotta show everyone how big our dicks are.

    --
    If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
  17. Wrong question by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 2

    I'd rather know more about switching careers from software engineering to billionaire playboy super-spy. C'mon, think big!

    --
    systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
  18. OK... by tlambert · · Score: 2

    Just got asked about helping with the Fukushima cleanup. I'm in, in case anyone cares.

  19. Re:Register what you spend by ruir · · Score: 2

    Budget by the year and not for the immediate. That several coffee a day habit could translate very well between 1000k-5000k thousand a year depending where you live and where you drink it. Save some vices only for the weekend. Be careful with eating out, it could well translate between 20k to 100k per year easily. And when I told to jot down the expenses it to carry a smart app or paper with you and jot down everything to the single penny.

  20. Re:Register what you spend by ruir · · Score: 2

    About letting go drinking buddies, this goes without saying. I enjoyed a lot the companion of someone that was more calmer and more socially apt than me. A lot. But the man and their circle of very amicable friends, they downed a bottle per night, per guy of whiskey, plus the grub that went down to "settle" it, every single day of the week. I had to let it go. Being an expat in a foreign, hot country was not easy, and I was no stranger to have a drink at the end of the night. He made a hell a lot of difference, however it was not a sustainable life in many ways. If you need to let go this kind of people, fake an health fad (I turned vegan), fake a minor disease and a need for a diet...whatever. But do it. Also your body will thank you. With 30 years the impact of abuse in a body is not yet noticeable.