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Microsoft Manufacturing Surface Hub In the US

Posted by samzenpus on from the made-in-the-usa dept.

overThruster writes: According to the New York Times, Microsoft has chosen to manufacture its Surface Hub in Wilsonville, Oregon. The announcement follows Apple’s decision to build the Mac Pro in Texas. "It makes a lot of sense to manufacture in the U.S.," said Steve Hix, an entrepreneur who founded several Portland-area tech companies, including one that had a manufacturing facility in Wilsonville. "The key issue is quality."

124 comments

  1. In other words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's an ultra low volume product that has a very limited audience but looks cool to plebs. Since Chinese manufacturing requires a pretty high volume of sales to pay off, m$ gains good pr by keeping it on this side of the Pacific. Not impressed

    1. Re: In other words by binarylarry · · Score: 0

      Plus income inequality has risen to much that poor US laborers are pretty close to Chinese laborers, cost wise.

      --
      Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
    2. Re:In other words by jijitus · · Score: 1

      I guess the real reason is that Chinese labour costs have increased during the last years. But considering the $20,000 price tag I agree.

    3. Re:In other words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not impressed

      Of course not, unless they are doing something that benefits you but does not benefit them at all you wont be impressed. If it keeps a small amount of jobs in the US then surely that is at least even a slightly good thing...though Im sure the resident /. cynics will find some way to put a negative spin on this.

    4. Re: In other words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so we get to have work too?

    5. Re:In other words by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      I guess the real reason is that Chinese labour costs have increased during the last years. But considering the $20,000 price tag I agree.

      Quite a bit. Chinese labour costs have increased a lot.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    6. Re:In other words by jcr · · Score: 2

      Exactly. Apple manufactures low-volume products in the USA, and does high volume manufacturing in China. Steve built the original Mac factory and the NeXT factory here, but went overseas in the 90s because staffing a factory in the USA is bloody difficult these days.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    7. Re: In other words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, the other day I was driving down wine country in California and I saw many white folks work in the fields (used to be all mexicans). I thought, well it seems income inequality is catching up in that region.

    8. Re:In other words by Firethorn · · Score: 2

      I remember reading that Chinese shoe factory workers were having their wages double every 3 years - for the last 15 years or so.

      CSMonitor has an article which mentions that labor costs are rising 15-20% a year in china, and they're up to $6/hour average - barely under US minimum wage. Add quality issues, delays in product delivery, delivery costs, and automation here in the USA, and 'reshoring' is a thing.

      Even if a lot of it's going to Mexico. Thing is, once China approaches equity, then the other southeast asian countries, followed by Mexico, where are manufacturers going to go for cheap labor? Africa? I get the feeling that by the time that happens, Chinese firms will be looking to outsource themselves to save costs(and I've heard they already are), and you end up going from around the worlds richest 50% looking to outsource to the poorest 50%, to 90% of the world looking to outsource to the remaining 10%. IE there just won't be enough 'poor' remaining in the world to absorb the demand for cheap labor. So outsourcing will have to come to a practical end.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    9. Re:In other words by Demonoid-Penguin · · Score: 4, Informative

      Since Chinese manufacturing requires a pretty high volume of sales to pay off, m$ gains good pr by keeping it on this side of the Pacific. Not impressed

      The key word is manufacture. Call me a cynic but I seriously doubt M$ is going to manufacture much in the US.

      To the best of my knowledge only Japan, China and Korea have the plants to make most of the components and I can't find any evidence that there are plans to set up the facilities in the US.

      It does seem that the screen itself (multiple 8x3' acrylic sheets with LED inserts around the edges) will be US made - so I guess that justifies the proposed "made in" label (and government funding?). From the referenced news (fluff) article (emphasis mine):-

      The product is so unusual — representing one of the largest touch screens of its kind — that Microsoft could not find existing assembly lines in Asia to build it on, the company said.

      One reason Microsoft’s factory is in Wilsonville, a city of about 21,000 about 20 minutes south of Portland, is that the Surface Hub originated at a start-up called Perceptive Pixel, which Microsoft acquired in 2012. The start-up had an assembly plant in Wilsonville for its giant touch-screen device

      Although many components in the product will come from overseas, the Surface Hub will be stamped with the phrase “Manufactured in Portland, OR, USA.

      And yeah - the "can't find existing Asian assembly lines big enough" is a bit of a deliberate furphy as assembly lines are built to suit the order - in this case they're just using the existing Perceptive Pixel assembly lines (which makes sense, as they bought the company which includes it's assets). Guess we'll wait and see. If it stays in the US it'll be interesting - especially seeing how they deal with the tax on the income.

    10. Re:In other words by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Consider the end user location of the device, corporate and government boardrooms. Security is a real issue and has such an accessible audit able construction facility a requirement. Customer pressure is bringing change, slowly but surely and the more pressure the greater the change. Want to outsource and offshore, fine sell your product to your outsourced offshore location, don't pretend it is local product and local customers should give it any preference. There can be a real push to force secure by design, in all of it's requirements, no obscurity and all local audited manufacture.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    11. Re:In other words by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1, Informative

      It's an ultra low volume product that has a very limited audience but looks cool to plebs.

      $700 million per quarter in Surface sales. We'r'e talking 900,000 units or so every three months.

      It's not iPad numbers, but I'm pretty sure that 3.5 million units a year and over $2billion in sales is more than "ultra low volume". That's enough volume to look into potential cost-savings.

      Not impressed

      Are you more impressed when a company just moves production to China?

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    12. Re:In other words by Pharmboy · · Score: 1

      There will always be poor countries. Those are the ones without all the shiny planes and nuclear bombs. We know ways to create our own.

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    13. Re:In other words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you tell us about the early days of NeXT? What did you live through during those times?

    14. Re:In other words by fustakrakich · · Score: 3, Informative

      The negative spin is that an American company opening a factory in the United States is front page news.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    15. Re:In other words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      The OP was talking about the ultra-low volume of the Surface Hub, meaning the new giant ones costing between $7k and $20k. Those won't be selling very many. That's right in the title.

    16. Re: In other words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Haha blacks don't live in northern california silly.

    17. Re:In other words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The market they are aiming at isn't actually very small at all. I am in a building at the moment with 20-30 smartboards around the place, they are very common in enterprises and they are hideously expensive (these surface hubs if they work are cheaper and potentially far more flexible and usable). while volumes won't be in consumer levels it still could be in the 10's if not hundreds of thousands if successful.

    18. Re:In other words by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      Latest Consumer Reports magazine focuses on "Made in America," and mentions that hundreds of companies have brought manufacturing back to the U.S., including a lot foreign companies (like BMW), so it's not really surprising.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    19. Re:In other words by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      I guess the real reason is that Chinese labour costs have increased during the last years. But considering the $20,000 price tag I agree.

      That and importing stuff is a massive pain in the arse. Between ultra complicated and hard to find tariff rules, longshoremen strikes, highly variable shipping costs, theft of goods and the host country's efforts to put backdoors in products manufactured within its borders, it can be easier to just build it at home.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    20. Re: In other words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean 6rmb per hour? That is still a fraction of USA wages.

      The Chinese will love to be earning 30k USD a year. It will do wonders for their economy.

    21. Re:In other words by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      haha.

      funny.

      where do you think the panels and chips come from? not made in USA.

      it's just an extremely low volume assembly plant they're going to be running in USA. I'd be surprised if they even did plastic molding in usa. hell, I don't think it needs even custom plastics, it looks so plain.

      furthermore, like the previous big screen surface(the original surface!) it will not be assembled for a long time, so it doesn't really make sense to train a china assembly line for it, do contracts with foxconn and so forth - because it's so low volume, short time.

      they'll just screw the motherboard module on the screen module in usa and that's it.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    22. Re: In other words by binarybum · · Score: 1

      define pretty close...

      --
      ôó
    23. Re: In other words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Pretty close" is defined as, "I have no fucking idea, but someone told me that there's more wage inequality, so that clearly means we're now at the level of subsistence agricultural workers."

    24. Re:In other words by tnk1 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Unless there are location advantages, or artificial barriers, pure labor costs will tend to even out as the global labor pool finds a level.

      The major questions are:

      Where is that level going to be, and are there enough of those jobs for everyone in the world?

      Chances are, the level of payment for labor in an automated world is likely to never again approach what it was due to barriers to work movement and strong unions. The reason for that is fairly clear, the race to the bottom, with the combination of not enough manufacturing jobs for everyone means that there is nothing that props up manufacturing wages except those tasks that have not yet been automated.

      So the manufacturing sector is pretty much a dead end for employment, but if we can produce goods without the need for labor, then perhaps we can consider making it unnecessary to maintain a menial job to have a living. I don't know if we're actually there yet, but at some point, we may need to start seriously discussing what it means to not have to have full employment while having the ability to produce more than ever. If someone can come up with a basic income idea that doesn't have us ending up as entitled proles who expect the government to pay for everything, which then turns into shitty politicized central planning, it may be worth serious discussion.

    25. Re:In other words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More than you might think: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      The thing is that US made is expensive compared to the corner-cut Chinese copied manufacturing which usually works. However, it may fail more easily under testing, for example, a copied chip might not work to -10, whereas a US chip will work to -20, and that's what the spec sheet says. A friend of mine does testing like this. Get a batch, and test to make sure the spec sheet is correct, and if not will it still work.

      For most things it doesn't matter, and high quality is possible anywhere. The thing is to ensure the supply chain is good, which is harder some places.

    26. Re:In other words by nospam007 · · Score: 0

      "It's an ultra low volume product that has a very limited audience but looks cool to plebs."

      Exactly! They are just used in a few television series and movies where MS pays them millions to do so.

    27. Re:In other words by sjames · · Score: 1

      Basic income has the advantage that it still leaves product development up to the market. It also still leaves an advantage to employment as long as it is truly a basic income rather than being means tested. Done well, it even simplifies things since it's hard for an employer to exploit people who can afford to quit.

    28. Re:In other words by allcoolnameswheretak · · Score: 1

      Robots and automation will put an end to it all long before that.

    29. Re:In other words by Noughmad · · Score: 1

      It's not only about the country being poor. Asians tend to have a strong work culture. Africans, not so much.

      --
      PlusFive Slashdot reader for Android. Can post comments.
    30. Re: In other words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You've obviously never been to Northern California.

    31. Re: In other words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My Windows tablets (two of them) are both third party units. One Dell and one Asus.

      Windows 10 is going to steamroll Android and iOS tablet sales.

    32. Re:In other words by Alomex · · Score: 1

      CSMonitor has an article which mentions that labor costs are rising 15-20% a year in china, and they're up to $6/hour average - barely under US minimum wage.

      The figures in that article seem to be all wrong. It looks like all numbers should have been Renminbi and somehow got a dollar sign in front of them instead. Current average manufacturing hourly wage in China is around 4 CNY per hour, which is a far cry from the predicted $6 an hour from the CSMonitor article.

    33. Re:In other words by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      longshoremen strikes

      because having your latest gadget sooner than later is more important than the lives of workers

      really, who cares about the sub-humans who handle your goods?

    34. Re:In other words by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      volumes won't be in consumer levels it still could be in the 10's if not hundreds of thousands if successful.

      so in other words, a day's output from a chinese factory

    35. Re: In other words by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      Windows 10 is going to steamroll Android and iOS tablet sales.

      it's already so successful that it's in the "free" bin before it even ships!

    36. Re:In other words by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      The thing is to ensure the supply chain is good, which is harder some places.

      yes because it's easier to ensure an intact supply chain in the USA when all of the parts are coming in containers from china

    37. Re:In other words by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      including a lot foreign companies (like BMW)

      So BMW opened a sweatshop in the US. The don't treat the workers like BMW employees, they treat them like trailer trash. You are proud of this?

    38. Re:In other words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Strong unions? You must not live in the US. In the US they've been all but gutted. IT refuses to organize because too many think they're special snowflakes and rockstars who could never be outsourced or H-1Bombed.

    39. Re:In other words by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      How do you know how the workers are treated? Would you prefer the jobs be overseas?

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    40. Re:In other words by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      The key word is manufacture. Call me a cynic but I seriously doubt M$ is going to manufacture much in the US.

      No single company completely manufactures smartphones. To get an idea, look at this. (I'm so sorry I couldn't find a better article).

      Parts from the iPhone are manufactured in many different countries, including:

      Korea
      Italy
      Malaysia
      Singapore
      Japan
      Philippines
      Scotland
      Germany
      Mexico
      China
      Taiwan
      Netherlands
      Japan

      The final assembly happens at Foxconn in China, but that's a small part of the total manufacturing cost. And we aren't even talking about production of the materials, like refining the silicon, etc, which is still an important process for manufacturing.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    41. Re:In other words by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      Actually I meant to say what you did, although the wording was awkward. We *used* to have strong unions, but they've fallen apart.

      However, I'm not entirely sure a resurgence of unions could really halt this. You'd have to go full-on trade barriers to make it work because in the past, the unions worked while the other countries were undeveloped or recovering from wars. Now, at least in the US, if the union becomes too strong, it will just result in layoffs or competitive disadvantage.

    42. Re:In other words by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      longshoremen strikes

      because having your latest gadget sooner than later is more important than the lives of workers

      really, who cares about the sub-humans who handle your goods?

      We're a customer of their services. Not an intermediary in their wage negotiations. When all imports can be blocked for weeks, it encourages people to explore local supply options, which is exactly the point.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    43. Re: In other words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They will be successful due to their low cost and the fact that people can run the same programs on a Windows 10 tablet as they already do on their PC. That means being able to run professional quality stuff and having a software library that dwarfs everything else out there.

      Nobody wants to have to learn different, wannabe software on Android or iOS when they can run the real deal that they are already familiar with.

    44. Re:In other words by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      Besides what Noughmad said, you also have the problem that making a country 'poor' via the means you mention doesn't actually make them cheap places to do manufacturing in. Destroying their infrastructure and killing their people tends to do that.

      You need places with decent infrastructure to support your factory, and workers that are willing to work for cheap to outsource to.

      China is 'great' for this, Africa, on average, isn't. Though it's getting closer, and a lot of that is that China is putting a lot of money into Africa for it's natural resources, and China wants it stable.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    45. Re:In other words by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      You need people to maintain the robots, so while productivity skyrockets due to the automation, you don't get rid of workers completely.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    46. Re:In other words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good. Unions are nothing more than employee cartels.

    47. Re:In other words by allcoolnameswheretak · · Score: 1

      Until you have the robots to maintain the robots...

    48. Re: In other words by Wycliffe · · Score: 1

      so we get to have work too?

      No, the robots get to have work. When manufacturing went to china, a factory with 2000 people in the USA got shut down and a factory with 3000 people in china got opened. As manufacturing is moving back to the USA, the same factory with 3000 people in china is getting shut down and a factory with 25 people in the USA is being opened. That's one of the main reasons that it is cost effective to start moving stuff back to the USA.

    49. Re:In other words by Wycliffe · · Score: 1

      You need people to maintain the robots, so while productivity skyrockets due to the automation, you don't get rid of workers completely.

      Sure, you have one person maintaining 100 robots that produce 100k widgets per hour. How many widgets do you need? A large factory might employ 25 people and produce enough goods for 1M people.

    50. Re:In other words by Wycliffe · · Score: 1

      I don't know if we're actually there yet, but at some point, we may need to start seriously discussing what it means to not have to have full employment while having the ability to produce more than ever.

      We're already there in some ways. Many people could live on less than 40 hours per week. Besides people just wanting more and more, I think the main reason we haven't seen this yet though is because it will always be easier to train one person to work 60 hours than 3 people to each work 20.

       

      If someone can come up with a basic income idea that doesn't have us ending up as entitled proles who expect the government to pay for everything

      You're implying that basic income is the only solution. One simple solution without resorting to basic income would be to make it illegal to work more than 20 hours per week. Assuming the same amount of work needs to get done then this would effectively double the number of available jobs. I'm actually surprised politicians haven't tried this yet. You could effectively control unemployment by raising and lowering the number of hours allowed per week. We have overtime laws but they are a joke. Most people are exempt and even the ones that aren't time and half is still cheaper than the additional overhead of more employees.

    51. Re:In other words by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      A large factory might employ 25 people and produce enough goods for 1M people.

      Indeed. However, people 'demand' a lot of widgets today, and there's still plenty more that we could use.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    52. Re:In other words by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      I don't really like the limitation on the number of hours, really. That was always one of the things about unions that bothered me. I am forced to not work to my full potential even on a job I actually like.

      If I am going to do a job, I want to do a job that I like. And if I am doing a job I like, then I'd like the opportunity to work at it.

      I like working and I like contributing towards a goal. I wouldn't want to be told to go home to give someone else their "turn". I don't mind working 60 hours, as long as it is something I want to do. If I have an income to fall back on, then I have the option of picking something I really want to do, without fearing for my ability to eat, and then being able to do that work.

      If those people who don't really want to do my job, but are doing it because they need to eat are forced to take a turn at the wheel to make their money, then it makes everyone unhappy.

      I am unhappy because I have to go home and not work on my project (which I like).

      Worker #2 has to come in to work a 20 hour shift to support himself, but really doesn't like doing the work.

      And of course, the business suffers because you have to find even more people with the skills and the interest to do the job because your first choice person has to go home when the week is only half over.

      Ultimately, we shouldn't define people by their worth as labor. It shouldn't be about giving everyone a job, it should be about everyone enjoying the fruits of our civilization and working on what they want to work on.

    53. Re:In other words by Wycliffe · · Score: 1

      The eventual goal would be to automate away all the jobs that people don't like to do
      but I'm not sure that's 100% possible. Yeah, I like my job but I still would rather be on
      the beach sipping a margarita and/or pursueing one of my passions that I can't get
      paid for. If everyone was only allowed to work for 20 hours per week then presumably
      they could spend the rest of the time volunteering to do whatever job they would
      prefer to do. You would have to make sure somehow that it doesn't end up like high
      school football though where they limit the number of hours of practice so instead
      they have "optional voluntary" practice that is neither truly optional or voluntary
      because if you don't show up then you mysteriously get benched.

  2. They said nothing about the employees though by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So all of those can be from Mexico and India.

    1. Re:They said nothing about the employees though by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1, Informative

      Well, if they use Amazon as a model, a lot of "those cars" for employees will be employees walking or biking to work.

      Adapt. Roads were made for bikes and streetcars in most US cities, not for cars.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  3. Makes sense for high ticket items by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Apple assembles the Mac Pro in the US because someone did the math and determined that the risk was too high to leave assembly and final QC to an overseas contractor.

    When volume is lower and prices are higher you stand to lose a lot more money (and customer good will) when a non-working unit makes it to sale. That, and the temptation for fully assembled ready-for-sale to 'disappear' and 'get lost' in shipping overseas is much higher with more expensive items.

    Ship the parts in, get your high quality local, trusted contractors or employees to do assembly and final QC. Much fewer headaches.

    Also much more flexible if you're doing any build-to-order.

    1. Re:Makes sense for high ticket items by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apple assembles the Mac Pro in the US because someone did the math and determined that the risk was too high to leave assembly and final QC to an overseas contractor.

      The Mac Pro is assembled in the US by an overseas contractor.

    2. Re:Makes sense for high ticket items by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      the difference here is that apple actually manages to sell hardware at a profit

      microsoft has been failing to profit in hardware since the apple II basic card

  4. Actually the key issue is China couldn't do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    They did not have a facility capable of making the new 84" 4K touchscreen. That process technology exists in the US.

    Also a factor is the cost of shipping an 84" 200+ pound screen overseas. Not insignificant.

    These are big-ticket, $20,000 items with high margins. The second margin becomes the focus, China is immediately in the running.

    1. Re: Actually the key issue is China couldn't do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And Microsoft doesn't intend on selling this overseas? Logic fail.

    2. Re:Actually the key issue is China couldn't do it by koan · · Score: 1

      And who buys a touch screen that size?

      --
      "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
    3. Re:Actually the key issue is China couldn't do it by SgtAaron · · Score: 2

      And who buys a touch screen that size?

      The producers of "CSI: Cyber." Duh :-)

    4. Re: Actually the key issue is China couldn't do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Men with small junk?

    5. Re:Actually the key issue is China couldn't do it by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 1

      The components are coming from Asia and it's just being assembled in the US.

      As for shipping it really isn't that expensive when you fill a shipping container. If you were to ship everything one part at a time via a courier then it would be expensive but they aren't going to do that. Basically there isn't much difference in cost if they are going to fill a container of parts and ship it over or ship over a container of finished products. There's an excellent book called The Box by Marc Levinson that outlines the history of the shipping container.

    6. Re:Actually the key issue is China couldn't do it by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      Tom Cruise used one in Minority Report.

    7. Re:Actually the key issue is China couldn't do it by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      that's false. there seems to be multiple 84" "china made" (touch) screens on the market(I guess panels could be from anywhere, like japan or whatever, LG, sharp).

      one of their claims is that they "do everything else than the panel" at the factory. proooooobably bullshit as well (chips, circuit boards are unlikely to be manufactured on site as are a number of other things in the machine- so what they're left with is plastics - which I think also to be unlikely to be manufactured on site - they would have the expertise to do that stuff in their nokia bought assets but I really doubt they're using that)

      overseas have the manufacturing capability and I would be really surprised if the factory for the panels was in fact in USA.

      it's just a big touchscreen and a computer. you could slap together a clone in china easily - or just order a branded one from alibaba with your logo. number of companies already doing this and serving the intended market of the surface hub.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    8. Re:Actually the key issue is China couldn't do it by binarybum · · Score: 1

      CNN.

      --
      ôó
    9. Re:Actually the key issue is China couldn't do it by koan · · Score: 1

      And what do they use it for?

      --
      "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
    10. Re: Actually the key issue is China couldn't do it by Greystripe · · Score: 1

      Why would Chinese fishermen want them?

    11. Re:Actually the key issue is China couldn't do it by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      he did? for real? and I thought it was just a movie.

  5. Well by koan · · Score: 1

    When you look at some alleged TISA immigration policies you can see why it makes sense.
    Not exactly my fav site, but they state it's from Wikileaks, so plausible.
    http://www.breitbart.com/big-g...

    3. Subject to any terms, limitations, conditions and qualifications that the Party sets out
    in its Schedule, Parties shall allow entry and temporary stay of [contractual service
    suppliers and independent professionals 3 ] for a minimum of [X%] of the following
    sectors/sub-sectors:
    Professional services:
    1. Accounting, auditing and bookkeeping services (CPC 862)
    2. Architectural services (CPC 8671)
    3. Engineering services (CPC 8672)
    4. Integrated engineering services (CPC 8673)
    5. Urban planning and landscape architectural services (CPC 8674)
    6. Medical & dental services (CPC 9312)
    7. Veterinary services (CPC 932)
    8. Services provided by midwives, nurses, physiotherapists and paramedical
    personnel (CPC 93191)
    3
    Final wording subject to further discussion, including on the cross-reference to categories in the AU
    submission on the temporary entry categories.
    4-FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY-
    LIMITED
    TISA/DEC.2014/negotiating text/MNP
    as of 13 February, 2015
    Without Prejudice
    Computer and related services:
    9. Consultancy services related to the installation of computer hardware (CPC 841)
    10. Software implementation services (CPC 842)
    11. Data processing services (CPC 843)
    12. Data base services (CPC 844)
    13. Other (CPC 845+849)
    Research and Development services:
    14. R&D services on natural sciences (CPC 851)
    15. R&D services on social sciences and humanities (CPC 852)
    16. Interdisciplinary R&D services (CPC 853)
    Other business services
    17. Advertising services (CPC 871)
    18. Market research and public opinion polling services (CPC 864)

    --
    "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
  6. Thanks Slashdot! by kamapuaa · · Score: 4, Informative

    Wow, some stuff is getting manufactured, in the nation with the largest manufacturing economy!

    --
    Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
    1. Re:Thanks Slashdot! by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Informative

      Wow, some stuff is getting manufactured, in the nation with the largest manufacturing economy!

      China surpassed the US as the world's largest manufacturer in 2010, and has continued to widen the lead.

    2. Re:Thanks Slashdot! by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but it's being done by an American company. That is unheard of!

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    3. Re:Thanks Slashdot! by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      that "largest manufacturing economy" is not only not correct anymore, it is also somewhat misleading because it defines the size of economy in money. For example, for the price of one F-35 China can build several fighter airplanes, but the size of their manufacturing still will look smaller in comparison. Maybe steel production is better for comparing the manufacturing capacity.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    4. Re:Thanks Slashdot! by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      For example, for the price of one F-35 China can build several fighter airplanes,

      For the price of one F-35, America can build several fighter airplanes, too. Your example is misleading.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    5. Re:Thanks Slashdot! by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      They can, but they still build F-35 instead.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    6. Re:Thanks Slashdot! by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Because an F-35 will beat several other fighters in a dogfight.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    7. Re:Thanks Slashdot! by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      Not really. It isn't that stealthy, it is slow and not very maneuverable.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    8. Re:Thanks Slashdot! by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      There was a lot of misinformation because politicians like to bloviate about cutting budgets. It's maneuverable and stealthy. Expensive and late, sure, but it's a sweet plane.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    9. Re:Thanks Slashdot! by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      USA does not export stealthy aircraft. And no, not maneuverable, because its engine - while very powerful - is alone and F-35 is very very heavy. It is even heavier than F-15, which was considered a heavy-weight, thus F-35's thrust-to-weight ratio is not impressive at all (= not maneuverable). Its wing load is also very high (again = not maneuverable). Thrust vectoring would help, but again, no thrust vectoring except for the carrier version.

      The video explanation is full of crap, for example the narrator tries to sell that the top speed of Mach 1.6 is somehow an advantage over older fighters (which can reach Mach 2+). I had to facepalm by then and kept it for the rest of the video.

      The plane is sweet for Lockheed Martin, sure. And for the kickback receivers.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    10. Re:Thanks Slashdot! by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      The video explanation is full of crap, for example the narrator tries to sell that the top speed of Mach 1.6 is somehow an advantage over older fighters (which can reach Mach 2+). I had to facepalm by then and kept it for the rest of the video.

      But your source of information is your own stupid head. Cite a source or shut up, moron.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    11. Re:Thanks Slashdot! by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      http://www.lockheedmartin.com/...

      just for example.

      This is open information. You can get it on Wikipedia FFS. Calculate the wing load yourself. The information of speeds reached by other fighters, their wing load, their thrust to weight ratio is also not a secret. Do the math. You'll see F-35 for the lame duck it is.

      Insulting other people just because they tell you some facts you don't like is both dickish and makes you look like an idiot.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    12. Re:Thanks Slashdot! by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Is your point that it's slower than the F-16?

      Speed is not all there is to air superiority, and you know it. Estimates are that the F-35 will be able to engage with a six to one relative loss exchange ratio.

      Before you were asserting that it wasn't very stealthy. Reports say it is stealthy. Are you going to back yourself up? The F-16 won't even know the F-35 is in the area.

      Also, to your original point, China still can't build a single-aisle passenger plane.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    13. Re:Thanks Slashdot! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So long as it doesn't divide by zero, that is.

    14. Re:Thanks Slashdot! by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      So long as it doesn't divide by zero, that is.

      True.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    15. Re:Thanks Slashdot! by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      btw sorry for being so rude earlier, I was having a bad day.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  7. Does not compute by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why build a new plant when you know that nobody is gonna buy them.

  8. Makes Sense by zamboni1138 · · Score: 1

    Probably right down the street from InFocus, FLIR, and Clarity Visual Systems. All of which are based in that same area of Oregon.

    Tagged Orygun to help people get the pronunciation.

    1. Re:Makes Sense by SgtAaron · · Score: 1

      Tagged Orygun to help people get the pronunciation.

      LOL. Argh! You did NOT just say that :-) But, yes you did.

    2. Re:Makes Sense by networkzombie · · Score: 1

      Is that near Washigon?

  9. No big surprise by tyme · · Score: 1

    The cost of components (not to mention the retail price) is so high that assembly labor is almost in the noise, just like any other big ticket item. They may even be saving money on the deal, if you factor in shipping costs (which isn't true of the Mac Pro).

    --
    just a ghost in the machine.
    1. Re:No big surprise by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      You're thinking old school. Assembly labor is a small fraction, as plants like this are designed automated from the ground up. Even the QA is mostly automated. Observed and confirmed by humans, but it's a mostly automated process.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    2. Re:No big surprise by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      build a factory from scratch to assemble 10 big screens before they go obsolete?

  10. Makes sense... by ndykman · · Score: 2

    The R/D department for this lives in Portland (Perceptive Pixel, acquired by MS). Plenty of room in Wilsonville. Power is still fairly cheap here (hydro power from the Columbia dams). So, yea, makes sense. Sure, milk it for media points, but in the end, it's just a business decision.

  11. Are they saying... by AndyKron · · Score: 1

    Are they trying to imply the Asian companies might not have excellent quality? I'm OK with that.

    1. Re:Are they saying... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As compared to American "quality"? LOL. I guess you've never driven an American car.

    2. Re:Are they saying... by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

      That's obviously not true...

    3. Re: Are they saying... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I drive a Ford truck every day.

      It's pretty unlikely that you have a vehicle that is foreign assembled. Most of the foreign brand vehicles in the US were assembled here.

      The dividing line is more likely to be wether it was built on a line with Union or non-union labor. Though the question of dinosaur-grade management in the traditional detroit-iron brands also matters. I work for an OEM that supplies GM. They are still an old boys network operation. No more or less corrupt than your typical Chinese operation.

    4. Re: Are they saying... by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      It's pretty unlikely that you have a vehicle that is foreign assembled. Most of the foreign brand vehicles in the US were assembled here.

      only if you count the disassembly and reassembly that are done at the mechanic's garage

    5. Re: Are they saying... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My 20 year old Toyota Camry has over 500K miles on it and still runs great.

      Let me know when you can say the same about your Ford.

  12. It's not so much American Quality by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

    it's just much easier to keep tabs on your supplier (and ship product back for repairs) when they're not across an ocean.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:It's not so much American Quality by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      it's just much easier to keep tabs on your supplier (and ship product back for repairs) when they're not across an ocean.

      that's why things are made in china, all the parts are from china

  13. It was only a matter of time by presidenteloco · · Score: 2

    before our robots became cheaper than their workers, and capable enough to do the job.

    Don't be fooled into thinking this trend is much of a local employment boon.

    (Unless you're a robot.)

    --

    Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
    1. Re:It was only a matter of time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd love to have the robots around where I live instead of other side of the world.

      1) they need maintenance
      2) the buildings they are in need maintenance
      3) the maintenance workers need food and services
      4) R&D will eventually go where the manufacturing is, if there is enough well educated people around there
      5) If shit hits the fan I can go and burn the factory with the robots. Gives me some negotiating power against the owning 1%. So in the end I decide to let the robots live, not some chinese worker, or chinas government

    2. Re: It was only a matter of time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1) & 2) will ultimately be done by robots as well,
      which makes 3) obsolete
      4) not really, r&d for a fully automated factory can be anywhere. e.g. r&d for U.S. companies who manufacture goods in china has not gone to china yet.
      5) you're under the probably false impression, that your government won't send it's police robots to protect their factory bots.

  14. The key issue is cheap immigrant labor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    and that's the America we know and love.

  15. Halo Products Made in USA by avandesande · · Score: 1

    Electric guitar manufactures charge a premium for guitars made in the USA. It would be nice if other manufacturers started to pick up on this. There are probably benefits too in having a certain amount of your production done in close proximity to your engineers and design team.

    --
    love is just extroverted narcissism
    1. Re:Halo Products Made in USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As someone that doesn't live in the US I usually take the tag "made in the USA" as a reason not to buy it. Perhaps I am just tainted by the really poor quality of cars, software and clothing from the US or the absolute shit quality of the work boots I bought from there. But regardless if it is tagged made in the USA it is usually a sign to be cautious, funny really as once upon a time it was Made in China that was the caution sign, now they tend to produce better quality stuff than most western countries due to the huge investments from western countries.

    2. Re:Halo Products Made in USA by bazorg · · Score: 2

      Electric guitar manufactures charge a premium for guitars made in the USA.

      I noticed that as well. Since I could not tell a good guitar from an excellent one, I've wondered if people are paying the premium for the "made in the USA" tag or whether they do so because there's an actual product difference.

      It is my understanding that Japanese and Korean made guitars used to be seen as rubbish knock-offs, but today they carry a more positive reputation. In any case, music and luxury items markets behave differently than consumer electronics. I don't think I'd pay a premium for a Surface table sold as being from 1953 vintage, pre-loved by some of the coolest CEOs of that era and with significant age-related marks.

    3. Re: Halo Products Made in USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      same here - i was pretty disappointed, when i bought my first "made in U.S.A" products - i expected something like "made in germany" but got the 80ies equivalent of "made in taiwan". and the low quality is pretty consistent, whether it's electronics, clothing, toys or even food.

    4. Re:Halo Products Made in USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Before china it was Made in Japan, that made you double check your medication.

    5. Re:Halo Products Made in USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Made in the US Gibsons are lower quality than the made in the china Epiphones in my experience. You can check this yourself at any guitar shop that carries a decent selection. Just take your fingers and run them along the side of the fretboard and count the number of frets that need to have their corners sanded. You'll find very few Epiphones that need to have their frets dressed. My personal experience is that you can buy an Epiphone or made in Mexico Fender from a internet retailer and be fine. I would never buy a made in the US Gibson without trying it first. The quality is too iffy, and you have a good chance having to do a full fret-dressing on it instead just adjusting the string height and intonation like you would on a made in China Epiphone.

      Honestly, you are better off buying a made in China or made in Mexico guitar for $400 - $600 and changing out any parts you dislike (bridge, pickups, tuning heads, .., etc.) than you are spending $2000+ on a made in the US instrument. You'll just get a better instrument that is custom to your preferences.

      On the opposite end, you have Moog, which also makes instruments in the US, but they have a great build quality. So it is more about the company than the country.

    6. Re:Halo Products Made in USA by avandesande · · Score: 1

      Yeah my experience has been with Music Man who make excellent quality instruments in California..,. not much with the larger makers.

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
  16. Quality? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No. You just want to do what Apple is doing and it is not about quality.

  17. Go Wilsonville! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Go Wildcats!!!

    Home Of:
    Nike Distribution Center - Oh wait.. they moved out.
    InFocus - Um.. nope they moved too..
    G.I. Joes Sporting Goods Headquarters - Oh yeah.... Chapter 11 and gone.
    Hollywood Video Headquarters - That whole industry is gone
    Well we at least still have:
    Xerox, Mentor Graphics, Tyco Electronics

  18. Re:or Japan's robots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    or chinas robots,
    or the intergalactic federation of robots robots... ...
    I hope the robots have a good welfare program :)

  19. "The key issue is quality." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    wondering, how they are going to tackle that issue while manufacturing in the U.S. Maybe by importing highly educated chinese workers?

  20. Meh a token gesture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is like Apple building Mac Pro here in the US. So you build your most profitable, least volume selling product and decide to pay people to assemble it here.
    Is that such a big deal Microsoft? The thing is, if all American's were willing and able to pay a bit more for stuff and would buy a American product vs a cheaper import. We would all be making better salaries and living the "dream". Instead we want more for less so we end up with companies like Apple who pay less then $100 to build a Apple Watch in China and sell it for $400. Seriously, don't believe all the BS these companies throw out there trying to act like they are helping. They are not helping America in the least. They are trying to use the "made in America" slogan as a marketing tool.

  21. Quality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "The key issue is quality."

    This is a very interesting observation, since American products are not exactly known for their high quality.

  22. oh wow, thats innovative by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So "quality product made in usa" means - "useless garbage, assembled by drones, from chinese components, the assembled components glued together by another bunch of drones". When a product is obsolete after 2 years... how can you even consider uttering word "quality"?!

  23. pricing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    well that explains the pricing, somewhat