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The Rebirth of Arcade Racers -- On Kickstarter

Posted by timothy on from the insert-coin-to-pledge dept.

An anonymous reader writes: While big budget racers like The Crew and Forza chase realism, in recent years we've also seen a return to the racers of old with checkpoints, a ticking countdown, little in the way of AI and banging chiptune soundtracks. As a new article points out though, they're not in the arcades any more though — they're on Kickstarter. The author tracks down the creators of three indie games that look to Daytona rather than Gran Turismo for inspiration, and find out why we're seeing a resurgence in power sliding.

79 comments

  1. More arcade racers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'd love to have more gran-turismo inspired racing games... ones that actually took themselves seriously & werent just bump-N-run.

    1. Re:More arcade racers? by stoned_ritual · · Score: 2

      I miss GT2 and GT3 a-spec. Those were my favorite console racers of all time, besides the colin mcrae rally series (pre-dirt era, dirt is a bro racer that can go fuck off).

    2. Re:More arcade racers? by shadowknot · · Score: 2

      CMR 3 may be my favorite racing game of all time (off-road category!) I agree that the series went to hell with Dirt, just as the NFS series went to hell when "Underground" came along. NFS3: HP and HP2 are two of my favorite games.

    3. Re:More arcade racers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so many good times with my homey chillin on the couch, getting high as fuck, eating oreos, and playing colin mcrae with my motorcycle helmet on, speakers up to full blast and in car view hardcore mode. fuckin A my favorite racer of all time as well.

    4. Re:More arcade racers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't wait for this!

    5. Re:More arcade racers? by Ormy · · Score: 1

      Have a look at the recent WRC series of rallying games, still made by codemasters, none of the bullshit introduced in CMR:DiRT, pure rallying. WRC 4 is the latest and its like CMR1/2 all over again for me. I also like the GRID series of racing games, just the right balance between simulation and arcade, especially the most recent installation, GRID:Autosport.

    6. Re:More arcade racers? by stoned_ritual · · Score: 1

      I have a love/hate thing with Grid autosport. I got it free from intel when I bought my haswell i5. My main issue is the handling in the drift series is wonky. I feel like each time I restart a race, the car has a completely different steering ratio and suspension set up. I never find the sweet spot (perfect balance between out of control and sliding beautifully around the apex) when drifting. That is ok though, because the rest of the game plays really well, and I like that is actually says my name when I log in. "Welcome back, Joe!" gives me a chill everytime.

  2. Extreme-G by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    How I miss the original. I'm hoping that in 15 years Mario Kart will turn into Extreme-G with how the series is developing. Twitch controls with courses that wind and play with gravity and shooting missiles at the people racing past above you on another part of the track. After the first game, the courses and gameplay mellowed out (track design and weapon selection specifically)

    When ever I see Roach from The Witcher 3, I can only think of my favorite bike from Extreme-G. With considering how abused and misused and now not used the license is, I'd be great to see someone pick this racer up.

    1. Re:Extreme-G by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      It's more likely that a new F-Zero will close in on your vision before Mario Kart does, I'd wager.

    2. Re:Extreme-G by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      F-Zero doesn't have weapons though. After playing the first one, it didn't click for me, so I haven't followed the game series, so if it changed I don't know.

      I honestly should try looking at Wipeout and the clones. If I remember correctly there is a pretty damn good Wipeout like game on the Wii U eShop, but I don't remember anything specific. I'd be happy for another Podracer game as well. Rented that game from Blockbuster several times. Both it and Extreme-G had mechanics I don't see in other games, which has me distraught, and likely the reason why I haven't gotten interested in a racing game in the past 8 years.

      I see GT, which I owned and enjoyed the version for the PS2, and I think "Why do want more realistic vehicles?" in the same tone I ask, "Why would you pick a human as a character race?" in an RPG. I guess I'm just saturated with realistic car sims to the point where I can't see the point of the interest. They should just make a MUGEN like engine and allow companies to make tracks and cars to add to the game as packs and that would be that.

  3. An anonymous marketer writes: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Or not. Why does a "summary" order me to go check out an advertisement? That word, news; I think it does not mean what you think it means.

  4. I used to game... by singularity · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Growing up in the 80's, I played video games quite frequently. Now, though, I find myself avoiding them.

    One reason is cost. I realize the cost really has probably not gone up that significantly from the NES days, but at that time it was my parents paying for a new console and games. Now I have to figure out how to justify a $60 game.

    Another reason is that I much more enjoy a "play for 10-30 minutes, have fun, and then walk away" type of game. MarioKart is a great example of this. I can play with 0-3 other people and have fun. We can play for 10 minutes, or we can play for an hour. When we get done I can put the controller down and not feel like there is more to do. The playability even remains after I have "beat the game". Commingled in there is an easy learning curve. Sure, the game might be challenging, but I do not want to spend an hour just getting the basic controls figured out.

    I am sure there are more games that fit this description, but as a casual gamer I am not willing to do the research just to figure out what games are out there. It is far easier to load up an emulator and play the original Castlevania for NES.

    The games described int he article do seem to be closer to the type of game I would like to play.

    --
    - (c) 2018 Hank Zimmerman
    1. Re:I used to game... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cool story, bro.

    2. Re:I used to game... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      $60? I just bought 8 games for $20 on Steam's summer sale...

    3. Re:I used to game... by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Man, if you didn't play Portal, you're missing out.

      (And Starcraft).

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    4. Re:I used to game... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now I have to figure out how to justify a $60 game.

      No, you don't. Stop looking at new games. The price always comes down. Then you buy the game at a more affordable price.

    5. Re:I used to game... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've played Portal and wish I never had. It was an incredibly stupid game.

    6. Re:I used to game... by antdude · · Score: 1

      For me, it is free time and energy. Dang adulthood life. :(

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    7. Re:I used to game... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've played Portal and wish I never had. It was an incredibly stupid game.

      It's not a bad game but it is highly overrated by many of it's fans.

    8. Re:I used to game... by schlachter · · Score: 1

      I feel the same way as you,. Interestingly, NES games were $40 back in the mid 80's which is $86 in 2015 dollars....so games have gotten cheaper...but so has everything else electronic.

      --
      My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
    9. Re:I used to game... by cheesybagel · · Score: 3, Informative

      I used to think the same thing. Then I started playing World of Tanks. It's free to play and each game takes 15 minutes.

    10. Re:I used to game... by sound+vision · · Score: 1

      There's this insinuation in your post that casual games don't exist anymore. Really, in recent years, games have moved in a decidedly casual direction. Even developers and series that were reliably "hardcore" - BioWare, Elder Scrolls - are watering things down so that the games can be played in smaller chunks.
      Those games are still probably outside of your parameters, but ever hear of say Angry Birds? I realize that one's a few years old already, but I don't have a smartphone or a Facebook account, so I'm not up to date on the latest. But that certainly seems to be where a lot of today's hyper-casual games are. There's also the Wii (or "Wii U", I think that's their new console). Nintendo probably can't compete with the phone/web games on cost, but they do seem to be gunning successfully for the "aging cost-conscious casual gamer" market.

      Honestly, it seems like the whole industry is bending over backwards to serve gamers that want the hit-it-and-quit-it experience. If you're not finding it, it's because you're not looking. "Looking" might even be too much for the Wii or phone platforms, pick a game at random there and it's likely to be casual.

    11. Re:I used to game... by stoned_ritual · · Score: 1

      I remember when I bought portal because of the massive hype machine behind it. All I can say is, the cake is indeed a lie. After beating the game in about 45 minutes I was pretty pissed.

    12. Re:I used to game... by singularity · · Score: 1

      I definitely think there are games out there fitting my needs - as I said, I place the blame partly on me for not wanting to do the research to find them.

      I do agree that there are a lot of casual "Play this game on the bus on the way to work" games out there for mobile devices. Mobile device gameplay is a whole other ball of wax, though. I would prefer to sit down in front of a large screen and use physical buttons. I suppose I am just old like that. I can see the appeal of mobile gaming, and have played a few over the years.

      I suppose one drawback to mobile gaming is the lack of socialization. I am not one to sit down and play a video game on my own very often. I would much rather play in a group. The few games I keep on my iPhone are mobile versions of board games that I play against other people via Game Center.

      --
      - (c) 2018 Hank Zimmerman
    13. Re:I used to game... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      The playability of simple games lies in good multi-player implementation: MarioKart, Mule, Poker, Canasta....

    14. Re:I used to game... by MrL0G1C · · Score: 1

      Now I have to figure out how to justify a $60 game.

      Why on earth would you want to pay $60 for a game!?!?!, Games coming out now are no better than games which came out 3 years ago and you don't need super hardware to play 3-year old games.

      Gog, Humble Bundle, Steam, Amazon etc sales and simple price drops, plenty of top games for 5 to 10 US/EU.

      GOG.com - summer sale on right now! DRM Free

      The Humble Store: Great games. Fantastic prices. Support charity.

      Set an alert, pay when the price is right:
      Amazon price alerts. | camelcamelcamel.com

      SteamAlerts.com -- Email notifications when games go on sale

      --
      Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
    15. Re:I used to game... by kosmosik · · Score: 1

      > Growing up in the 80's, I played video games quite frequently. Now, though, I find myself avoiding them.

      You were (I assume) a child then so you've liked playing games in general. I guess if you were your 80's age now you would be gaming since games now are AWESOME... if you have time for gaming (which you don't)..

      > One reason is cost. I realize the cost really has probably not gone
      > up that significantly from the NES days, but at that time it was my
      > parents paying for a new console and games. Now I have to figure
      > out how to justify a $60 game.

      That is how I've justified building RaspberryPi ($40) +2 classic controllers ($6) +SD card ($4) and RetroPie ($0) and some hacking (and maybe a charger and HDMI cable and so on) so I casually can play Contra or Bomberman with my girlfriend and it rocks PLUS I get a feeling that I am a geek which is nice. ;)

    16. Re:I used to game... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No it doesn't: Galaga, Super Mario Bros, Solitaire, Minesweeper.

    17. Re:I used to game... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WoT is a good game... but it is still a 'leveling game'. Where you invest in a 'character' and earn greater powers over a loooong time. Games of yesteryear allow one to play & walk away. So it's not actually the minutes played that's a key factor, it's the emotional/mental investment of modern games that turns them from fun into 'daily work'. Games are now ranked on how addictive they are. That word... is addictive really a good thing?

  5. Nostalgia sells. by DerekLyons · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "in recent years we've also seen a return to the racers of old with checkpoints, a ticking countdown, little in the way of AI and banging chiptune soundtracks."

    As much as people bitch about Hollywood and it's endless sequels, remakes, reboots, and re-imagings... the reality is, that's what sells.

    1. Re:Nostalgia sells. by stoned_ritual · · Score: 1

      The people bitching about remakes and nostalgia raping are not the ones buying the shit.

    2. Re:Nostalgia sells. by mangobrain · · Score: 2

      I don't disagree that nostalgia sells, but I do disagree that what we are seeing here is purely nostalgia-driven. I, for one, prefer unrealistic "drift-style" racers to simulations - I get a lot of enjoyment from going as fast as possible, negotiating courses through a mixture of careful positioning and controlled drifts, with the height of skill being completing a lap without releasing the accelerator, without crashing.

      Games which deliberately ape the looks & sounds produced by old systems may indeed rely heavily on nostalgia, but there are plenty of other games out there maintaining the old-fashioned arcade driving mechanics, whilst taking full advantage of modern hardware. Personally I would put Mario Kart 8 in this category (although it is debatable whether the Wii U can be called "modern" in the graphics department). In TFA itself, the Power Drive 2000 trailer may have retro music and a retro *feel* to the graphics, but the graphical fidelity itself is not artificially restricted. Elsewhere on Kickstarter, Formula Fusion [1] seeks to recreate the style and mechanics of the WipEout series, whilst not in any way pretending to be an old game - I for one am excited by the prospect of finally having what is essentially WipEout (in all but name) running on modern PC hardware, with all the bells, whistles and convenience that implies, but would probably be put off if they were to deliberately attempt an original-PlayStation aesthetic. The 90s Arcade Racer [2] is definitely playing heavily on nostalgia, littered with references to (as you may have guessed) various 90s arcade games, but again, it seeks to make the best of the underlying hardware.

      Nostalgia is certainly one aspect of all this, but don't underestimate the number of people who simply find these kind of games fun, and want to be able to play them easily & legally on contemporary hardware! I suspect I am not alone in finding that simulation-style games are not enjoyable without matching realistic controls, but have neither the space to dedicate to wheels, joysticks, throttles, pedals etc. - nor do I particularly want to spend the money or devote the time. For example, much as I am pleased that Elite: Dangerous and Star Citizen exist, I personally am holding out for No Man's Sky, simply because releasing on PS4 first means it is far more likely to have a simple control scheme which works on common controllers. Many will probably decry it as "dumbed down" or "retro"; I say it is just a different design decision.

      [1] http://www.r8games.com/
      [2] http://www.destructoid.com/rem...

    3. Re:Nostalgia sells. by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Much like war games and Flight Simulators driving games are going too far.
      It is really hard to drive fast around a track. Race car driver spend years develop their skills.
      I want to jump in and burn up a track!

      I am really into flight sims but then I love to fly PA-28s and 172s vs 747s in FSX.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    4. Re:Nostalgia sells. by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      I get a lot of enjoyment from going as fast as possible, negotiating courses through a mixture of careful positioning and controlled drifts, with the height of skill being completing a lap without releasing the accelerator, without crashing

      Careful positioning? Skill? Controlled?

      No friggin' way. ;-)

      The optimal racing game should be playable by a sugar-crazed 8 year old who keeps the throttle mashed down on full, bashes and crashes into everything, never touches the brake, and has no idea what a gear change is ... and you can still succeed. I loved playing those with my nephews.

      For many people, gaming is a casual endeavor, and we don't want it to be a skill sport.

      Some of us played lots of racing games, but not the ones which required us to actually exhibit any skill. Older versions of Gran Turismo could be played with skill, but you could also play a lot with just frenetic glee.

      I also remember playing Street Fighter on SNES a long time ago at a party ... some of the guys knew all the combos and all the fancy stuff ... and some of the guys were almost randomly button mashing (OK, me) to surprising effect. You can't anticipate what I'm going to do if I have no plan or idea of what I'm gonna do.

      Good times. =)

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    5. Re:Nostalgia sells. by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      I, for one, prefer unrealistic "drift-style" racers to simulations - I get a lot of enjoyment from going as fast as possible, negotiating courses through a mixture of careful positioning and controlled drifts, with the height of skill being completing a lap without releasing the accelerator, without crashing.

      Didn't one of the Gran turismo's have a drift centric rally mode? Or am I mis-remembering? Maybe it had to be earned or something?

      I suspect I am not alone in finding that simulation-style games are not enjoyable without matching realistic controls, but have neither the space to dedicate to wheels, joysticks, throttles, pedals etc. - nor do I particularly want to spend the money or devote the time.

      I gave up on Gran Turismo when the game became less casual friendly and more wheel-centric. Maybe I just need to find somet inexpensive quality wheel, yeah right.

      For example, much as I am pleased that Elite: Dangerous and Star Citizen exist, I personally am holding out for No Man's Sky, simply because releasing on PS4 first means it is far more likely to have a simple control scheme which works on common controllers.

      Yep, me too, though I'm going to try out Elite Dangerous as well, once the PS4 version releases. I have a x52 HOTAS I picked up for War Thunder. I don't actually use it with War Thunder because the PS4 version doesn't have the ability to save different control schemes for ground and air, so if I set up the X52 for planes, it messes up the ground controls, and if I reset the ground controls, it wipes out my settings for the X52. Annoying.

    6. Re:Nostalgia sells. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We like our racing games realistic just to keep you and your six year old wreckers out.

      Everybody wins. We get to race, you get to crash.

      You shouldn't be surprised at the ban hammer when you venture into 'grown up racing'.

    7. Re:Nostalgia sells. by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      You shouldn't be surprised at the ban hammer when you venture into 'grown up racing'.

      Ban hammer? You seem to assume those of us who like a particular kind of racing game give a shit about online gaming.

      Trust me, you will never have to worry about me in your precious online racing -- I don't play online games precisely because of smug assholes like you.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    8. Re:Nostalgia sells. by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      The optimal racing game should be playable by a sugar-crazed 8 year old who keeps the throttle mashed down on full, bashes and crashes into everything, never touches the brake, and has no idea what a gear change is ... and you can still succeed.

      Or a 48 year old who is reverting to his sugar crazed 8 year old self after eating some marshmallow cereal on their day off. Kudos to you sir, for a laugh out loud moment.

      Older versions of Gran Turismo could be played with skill, but you could also play a lot with just frenetic glee.

      I stopped playing Gran Turismo when the game became more hardcore wheel-user centric.

      also remember playing Street Fighter on SNES a long time ago at a party ... some of the guys knew all the combos and all the fancy stuff ... and some of the guys were almost randomly button mashing (OK, me) to surprising effect. You can't anticipate what I'm going to do if I have no plan or idea of what I'm gonna do.

      Ha, yes. My adult sister did that to me when we were goofing off in Tekken Tag Tournament on the PS2 on a weekend, she ran circles around me with Ling Xiaoyu. It got even worse when she figured out some of the special moves and juggled me into the air with Ling, swapped in Panda and proceeded to kick my ass. And I'm mostly a button masher myself. Guess she was even better. I got even when I figured out she couldn't handle Jun's speed.

    9. Re:Nostalgia sells. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good. You belong on Mario Cart.

  6. This is why the oxford comma by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "a ticking countdown, little in the way of AI and banging chiptune soundtracks"

    So do they have chiptune soundtracks? or little in the way of them?

    1. Re:This is why the oxford comma by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your reading and comprehension skills are pathetic.

    2. Re:This is why the oxford comma by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More like he's just trying to be a pedantic fool about the lack of an Oxford Comma.

  7. If you like 80's sci-fi nostalgia by iONiUM · · Score: 1

    Check out Power Drive 2000, might be something you'd like.

    You can follow their twitter here.

    Some of these 'old' style games look way better than new "mainstream ones" to me.

  8. Carmageddon is back by 0123456 · · Score: 1

    What else do you need to know?

  9. Skyroads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Skyroads, all day long.

  10. TIME EXTENSION! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    TIME EXTENSION!

  11. Rolling staaaaart! by Vyse+of+Arcadia · · Score: 1

    I never much cared for realistic racing games... except the arcade games. Something about trying to get to the next checkpoint before the timer runs out is very satisfying in a primal, visceral way. I'm glad that the power of PCs and home consoles has let us explore the world of game design like it has, but I wish more developers would look back to the arcade era for design cues. Just about any game is worth spending a quarter to try. It's the game that get you to come back and spend more quarters that really had something going for it, and I think there's something to learn from those.

  12. hmm by nomadic · · Score: 1

    Greatest racing game of all time: Star Wars Episode 1 Racer. It is the perfect racing game. This is not a joke.

    1. Re:hmm by operagost · · Score: 1

      Can you run over Jar Jar?

      That would be perfect indeed.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
  13. Deceptive links by hibiki_r · · Score: 1

    Am I the only one that finds it pretty underhanded to give us a link that says "they are on kickstarter" but doesn't actually link to one of those kickstarter projects? It's not quite a deceptive goatse link, but at this rate, I'd want links in the blurb to list the domain they point to.

  14. Gran Turisimo (3) taught me how to drive by PPalmgren · · Score: 1

    I say this without sarcasm. I played through that game's entire progression and learned a lot about the physics of a car. Playing the harder races and difficulties taught me how to corner properly before I ever took the wheel myself. While I can't stand racing as entertainment, it also gave me a bit more appreciation for those guys that have to do so many laps.

  15. every racer is an arcade racer by Jazoray · · Score: 1

    There is no racing game chasing realism other than Richard Burns rally. Every other racing game on the planet has ridiculously unbelievable physics. if you want a realistic racing game on pc your options are basically zero. Calling "The Crew" a realistic game is way beyond insane. I've never seen anyone being so out of touch with reality. And i've worked in a psychiatric hospital.

  16. Question: How's it taste "eating your words"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See subject & answer it vs. you doing it here http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... so keep "puffing that pot" fool!

    * :)

    Gotta love it - seeing you give me guff, knowing you CRIPPLE your OWN thought processes with pot is priceless, since it makes it (& I've just GOTTA say it, you're making me do it) "too, Too, TOO EASY - just '2ez'" to utterly crush you by making you "eat your words", spiced with the bitter taste of SELF-defeat, + your foot in your mouth RAMMING THEM DOWN, rinsing down the puke you spewed on /. that I smacked you down with easily!

    APK

    P.S.=> Gotta LOVE pot smoking dolts - they're stupid enough to do what "stoned_ritual" did, & smash themselves into the ground everytime vs. myself, lol... apk

    1. Re:Question: How's it taste "eating your words"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      stoned_ritual has his cake n' eats it with his words hahahaha munchies

  17. Question: How's it taste "eating your words"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See subject & answer it vs. you doing it here http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... so keep "puffing that pot" fool!

    * :)

    Gotta love it - seeing you give me guff, knowing you CRIPPLE your OWN thought processes with pot is priceless, since it makes it (& I've just GOTTA say it, you're making me do it) "too, Too, TOO EASY - just '2ez'" to utterly crush you by making you "eat your words", spiced with the bitter taste of SELF-defeat, + your foot in your mouth RAMMING THEM DOWN, rinsing down the puke you spewed on /. that I smacked you down with easily!

    APK

    P.S.=> Gotta LOVE pot smoking dolts - they're stupid enough to do what "stoned_ritual" did, & smash themselves into the ground everytime vs. myself, lol... apk

  18. Question: How's it taste "eating your words"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See subject & answer it vs. you doing it here http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... so keep "puffing that pot" fool!

    * :)

    Gotta love it - seeing you give me guff, knowing you CRIPPLE your OWN thought processes with pot is priceless, since it makes it (& I've just GOTTA say it, you're making me do it) "too, Too, TOO EASY - just '2ez'" to utterly crush you by making you "eat your words", spiced with the bitter taste of SELF-defeat, + your foot in your mouth RAMMING THEM DOWN, rinsing down the puke you spewed on /. that I smacked you down with easily!

    APK

    P.S.=> Gotta LOVE pot smoking dolts - they're stupid enough to do what "stoned_ritual" did, & smash themselves into the ground everytime vs. myself, lol... apk

  19. Question: How's it taste "eating your words"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See subject & answer it vs. you doing it here http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... so keep "puffing that pot" fool!

    * :)

    Gotta love it - seeing you give me guff (yet being a "ne'er-do-well" pothead with nothing better to show for yourself vs. what I've done that gives others more speed, security, reliability, & anonymity), knowing you CRIPPLE your OWN thought processes with pot is priceless, since it makes it (& I've just GOTTA say it, you're making me do it) "too, Too, TOO EASY - just '2ez'" to utterly crush you by making you "eat your words", spiced with the bitter taste of SELF-defeat, + your foot in your mouth RAMMING THEM DOWN, rinsing down the puke you spewed on /. that I smacked you down with easily!

    APK

    P.S.=> Gotta LOVE pot smoking dolts - they're stupid enough to do what "stoned_ritual" did, & smash themselves into the ground everytime vs. myself, lol... apk