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Amazon Overhauling Customer Reviews

Posted by Soulskill on from the shortening-your-soapbox dept.

An anonymous reader writes: Amazon says it's making some big changes to its product review system, one of the most heavily used on the internet and a vital part of Amazon's business. A machine-learning platform will endeavor to select helpful reviews with an emphasis on more recent ones. The average score will change as well: new reviews will be weighted higher than old reviews. Reviews from verified purchasers will have more influence as well, and also reviews voted up by other customers. "For example, sometimes a company will make small tweaks to a product or address some customer complaints, though this product isn't officially updated or renamed. With the new system, [Amazon] said, these small modifications should become more noticeable when shoppers are buying products." Because the review system is so important to customers, Amazon will be rolling out changes slowly, and watching for anything that breaks or gets skewed in unexpected ways.

85 of 116 comments (clear)

  1. Sounds like reasonable changes to me by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I could be missing something, but frankly everything I read in the summery seems like reasonable changes to me.

    Someone who actually is known to have purchased the item, yea, their review should be worth more than random Internet person #4827341

    A review from last month is probably worth more than one from two years ago. The product may have changed.

    1. Re:Sounds like reasonable changes to me by dgatwood · · Score: 1, Redundant

      Someone who actually is known to have purchased the item, yea, their review should be worth more than random Internet person #4827341

      Not really. A review by someone who chose a different product is likely to be more valuable in choosing a product, assuming that person can articulate why he/she chose the other product, because that means the person knows not only this product, but also other products on the market. By contrast, someone who chose the product he/she is reviewing has a very high probability of being familiar with only that product and not any others on the market. Given a choice, I'd take reviews from non-owners over reviews by owners any day.

      Also, if the product sucks, assuming the product isn't so bad that folks return it, people who own the product are more likely to feel the need to give it better reviews to justify the money they spent. And because they're less likely to know other products on the market than someone who chose s different product, they're also less likely to recognize the products' flaws. Between those two factors, owners of the product are more likely to give bad products higher ratings than they deserve.

      A review from last month is probably worth more than one from two years ago. The product may have changed.

      If the product has changed in a meaningful way (other than possibly fixing manufacturing defects), it should have a different ISBN/UPS and model number. The alternative causes serious customer confusion and can lead to legal problems all around. And in cases where there is a manufacturing flaw, Amazon lets companies make an official response to reviews. The manufacturers can use that mechanism to note that the flaw was fixed in all products made after [insert date here] if they choose to do so. If they don't, it's nobody's fault but their own.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    2. Re:Sounds like reasonable changes to me by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 2

      Well, you could see this as a 'good news' topic on Slashdot. Those points sound positive to me, too.

      It will be important to Amazon's credibility, though, to find out more about this 'machine learning' thing. Will it be programmed to maximize sales? There's a fine balance between credibility and salesmanship.

      Also, I couldn't help but thing that whole additional boiler-rooms full of online shill commenters are gonna need to be hired when this thing goes into effect. Do you have an English degree and/or good writing skills? Need work?

    3. Re:Sounds like reasonable changes to me by davester666 · · Score: 2

      Of course, you have no idea which 'version' of the product you will receive. I've received a product from Amazon that was shipped to them more than a year before I bought it [it had the fedex label from the manufacturer to Amazon's warehouse inside the box].

      And I don't know why the hell Amazon has to burn a whole CPU for each page you have open on their web site, constantly refreshing the whole page.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    4. Re:Sounds like reasonable changes to me by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A review by someone who chose a different product is likely to be more valuable in choosing a product, assuming that person can articulate why he/she chose the other product, because that means the person knows not only this product, but also other products on the market. By contrast, someone who chose the product he/she is reviewing has a very high probability of being familiar with only that product and not any others on the market. Given a choice, I'd take reviews from non-owners over reviews by owners any day.

      That's some pretty convoluted logic there, at least by my reckoning. If the user hasn't purchased the item in question, how exactly are you assuming he/she knows the product sufficiently that they're in a suitable position to review it, judging it's strengths and weaknesses? Can you assume they're not simply biased against a completing product they happen to own, for example? You're telling me that, for example, a Playstation 4 owner is in a better position to review an Xbox one, and we should trust their judgment as being more objective and fair than someone who actually purchased an Xbox one?

      Also, if the product sucks, assuming the product isn't so bad that folks return it, people who own the product are more likely to feel the need to give it better reviews to justify the money they spent.

      Wow... again. I'd bet that people who have purchased a product and are unhappy with it are actually *more* likely to review it harshly in an effort to punish the company for their poor product, and at least warn others against a crappy purchase. There are some old marketing saws that say similar things, I believe. At the very least, that holds true for me. I've purchased a couple of stinkers, and I made damn sure to leave a one or two star review, and explain in detail *why* it was such a terrible product.

      Heh, your expectations of human nature runs about 180 degrees opposite of mine, for whatever reason.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    5. Re:Sounds like reasonable changes to me by postbigbang · · Score: 1

      Sometimes the "version" is out of Amazon's control. Imagine all of the WiFi Router "versions" out in the field. Some will have firmware that's dreck (and complaints), and some will work well.... for a few weeks until the next crack emerges.

      The biggest problem I see is that Amazon's search function is state of the art 2006. Once one finally get a user to the right product, people dash to the reviews, hoping they haven't been 'turfed, are somewhat sane, and knowledgeable, then give a user-voted credence (or not) to a product.

      There are no standards to ratings, no commonality among them, and little in terms of a rational guideline to do the reviews. These changes impose a little bit of discipline, but IMHO, Amazon's search functions repel users more than the reviews attract them.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    6. Re:Sounds like reasonable changes to me by vikingpower · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Disagree in the case of books. An old review is absolutely not worth less than a recent review, especially if e.g. a classical engineering or math text is 2 decades old.

      --
      Religous speak to God. Insane are spoken to by God. When all shut up, one can finally hear Shostakovich in peace
    7. Re:Sounds like reasonable changes to me by laurencetux · · Score: 1

      yeah for only $25K a company will get a year of Amazon Prime (R) for business and have new positive ratings given priority

    8. Re: Sounds like reasonable changes to me by hackwrench · · Score: 1

      I have gotten different versions of books. Japanese A manual of reading and writing was rearranged between editions and Amazon's page depicts the second edition, but I got the first.

    9. Re:Sounds like reasonable changes to me by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      On the contrary, a state of the art match or engineering text which has been superceded by a corrected version (errors in the text), which has been proven to be wrong (global cooling due to pollution), or which is simply out of date given new information - say, Viswanath's contributions to the Fibonacci number construct.

      Such revised ratings should absolutely have more weight than older reviews which could not have known there would be new information.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    10. Re:Sounds like reasonable changes to me by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Could be.... but it's also important to consider potential abuses from shady manufacturers.

      "For example, sometimes a company will make small tweaks to a product or address some customer complaints, though this product isn't officially updated or renamed. ...."

      Sometimes said "small tweaks" to improve sales --- instead of involving changes to the product, involve employees or paid shills to buy the product and write favorable reviews.

      If the product is a less popular one that doesn't have a large amount of purchases and only has a relatively small number of reviews, then these changes could further facilitate artificial score inflation.

    11. Re:Sounds like reasonable changes to me by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Sometimes the "version" is out of Amazon's control. Imagine all of the WiFi Router "versions" out in the field. Some will have firmware that's dreck (and complaints), and some will work well

      Amazon ought to put agreements in place requiring that manufacturers distinguish the SKU of every "Version" change that is not offered as a free upgrade to all existing/new users --- In other words, a new "B" version should get a new product subpage.

      Any change to the design, model, or sourcing of components, should result in a new product page, so they can be reviewed. There should be no such thing as an "Unofficial revision" that does not get a new SKU, a new product page, etc.

      If there are still "A" version components for sale; then you should be prompted which version you are buying during checkout, possibly at a discounted price, OR if they are insistent on clearing their inventory of A components, they should not start selling B version until A version has sold out.

      All separate versions of a product should be independently reviewable.

    12. Re: Sounds like reasonable changes to me by mysidia · · Score: 2

      You received a product different from the one you paid for...

      Getting the wrong edition of a book is a bit major. The difference in value of a newer edition can be huge, especially in regards to textbooks, where many professors require students to buy the newer Nth edition, which is often pretty much the same as the N-1th edition, possible correction of a few errors, And likely rearrangement and substantial tweaking to homework exercises and test/exam question banks.

    13. Re:Sounds like reasonable changes to me by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Especially if e.g. a classical engineering or math text is 2 decades old.

      How do you know the latest edition hasn't substantially affected items material to the older reviews?

    14. Re:Sounds like reasonable changes to me by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Completely agree [with the grandparent] in the case of books. A new review is absolutely worth more, especially e.g. haiku translations or biographies. What was once a classic is now sliding into deserved obscurity as we now know the translator was wrong in his assumptions. Or new information has come to light on the subject.

      Doubly so since non-Amazon reviews tend to review a book on publication and except in egregious cases forget it's existence thereafter.

      In the case of books of the type you cite, I suspect the same is true - new reviews confirm their continuing status as a classic and valuable to the new reader or researcher as opposed to being a classic only in golden memory.

    15. Re:Sounds like reasonable changes to me by cHiphead · · Score: 1

      Thet work pretty damn well as is, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

      This feels like a way to Yelp the reviews while being able to throw their hands in the air with a 'automated machine learning, what can we do but fix it and hope for the best?' excuses.

      --

      This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    16. Re:Sounds like reasonable changes to me by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

      Sometimes said "small tweaks" to improve sales --- instead of involving changes to the product, involve employees or paid shills to buy the product and write favorable reviews.

      If the product is a less popular one that doesn't have a large amount of purchases and only has a relatively small number of reviews, then these changes could further facilitate artificial score inflation.

      You are assuming that the announced changes are the only ones being made.

      If I were Amazon, I'd also secretly place reviews from established accounts with long purchase histories ahead of those that are new and haven't bought much.

      Someone who has purchased 500 unique items should have more "weight" than someone who has bought 5.

      IMHO of course.

    17. Re:Sounds like reasonable changes to me by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1

      An old review is absolutely not worth less than a recent review, especially if e.g. a classical engineering or math text is 2 decades old.

      As other comments have already noted -- this is a bad example. Science and engineering textbooks can definitely change significantly over 20 years, and a new review may point out the flaws now known given new research.

      I do agree with you regarding fiction, though, as well as other products that essentially don't change at all over time. Yes, the reputation of a particular work of fiction may gradually alter over the years, but the text stays the same. Unless a review is talking about the quality of the paper or binding or something like that, I'm not sure why a new review should necessarily be valued significantly more than an old one there.

    18. Re:Sounds like reasonable changes to me by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1

      Also, if the product sucks, assuming the product isn't so bad that folks return it, people who own the product are more likely to feel the need to give it better reviews to justify the money they spent.

      Wow... again. I'd bet that people who have purchased a product and are unhappy with it are actually *more* likely to review it harshly in an effort to punish the company for their poor product, and at least warn others against a crappy purchase. There are some old marketing saws that say similar things, I believe.

      I agree with you that GP's logic is convoluted. But I think there is a message in there somewhere -- which is that marketing theories also clearly talk about notions of "satisfaction" in terms of "expectations."

      Someone who buys a product without researching other similar products will probably be satisfied unless that product fails the basic tasks the consumer expects. And they're probably likely to write a positive review, probably 4-5 stars. Even if they never looked at another option for their purchase and know nothing about other similar products.

      Someone who hates the product, as you say, will be likely to write a 1-star review to "punish" the manufacturer and warn people.

      But, you ever notice how few 3-star reviews there are on Amazon for most products? I think that's part of the problem GP was getting at. The person who writes a 3-star review is often someone who actually knows more about the product class and can say more than "It works for me! 5 stars!" or "It didn't work! I wish I could give it zero stars, but Amazon won't let me, so it has 1 star!"

      The problem also is that reviews are NOT surveys. It's not like they canvassed a random group of people and tried to sort out how satisfied they were. The people who write reviews are self-selected -- which means they probably hated the product enough to send it back or complain, or they thought it worked and that was good enough ("5 stars!").

      Nuances are reserved for those who actually do product research. Most people don't. I agree GP's actual arguments are wrong, but the idea that we should value reviewers who are actually more familiar with a variety of products is a valid proposition. I just don't think there's an easy way to design an algorithm to select those reviews... and not be "gamed" in some way.

    19. Re: Sounds like reasonable changes to me by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      And also one year newer, to block the resale of last year's edition on the secondary used market. Because the professor or one of their cronies collects a royalty on each new copy sold.

    20. Re: Sounds like reasonable changes to me by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      Yep. The pettiness of this becomes more apparent when you consider the limited audience * royalties involved.

    21. Re:Sounds like reasonable changes to me by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

      Someone who actually is known to have purchased the item, yea, their review should be worth more than random Internet person #4827341

      It will depend how it's implemented. Amazon's current system is better than nothing, but some of their recent policy changes make it harder to find unbiased information - and this latest change could take it further down the rabbit hole, depending on the details.

      I always look at the reviews before purchasing, and lately I've seen a LOT of reviews flagged as "Verified Purchase" - always at the very top of the list - which state, more or less, "I received this product at a discount in exchange for agreeing to write a review, but I'm not letting that discount bias my opinion". I make it a point to flag those as "unhelpful" and then go hunting for the reviews from people who actually purchased the product the same way I will be, should I purchase the product - at full price.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    22. Re:Sounds like reasonable changes to me by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

      But, you ever notice how few 3-star reviews there are on Amazon for most products?

      I'm not sure I completely agree, but I supposed it depends on the product. Let's take a peek at a technical book I was looking at:

      It has 25 reviews, with an (algorithmically weighted) average of 3.8 stars. The break down is:
      5 star 44%
      4 star 24%
      3 star 12%
      2 star 12%
      1 star 8%

      That seems reasonable enough to me. My takeaway is that the book is probably solid, but has a few serious flaws. The people who gave three stars, interestingly enough, seemed to give the best critical feedback while also pointing out the positive aspects of the book.

      The problem you mention is even worse when you look at user videogame reviews. For instance, on metacritic, you use user ratings of 1/10 (ZOMG worst game EVAR!!!!!) or 10/10 (WOWOW bestest game in history!!!!), and surprisingly little in-between.

      Steam did away with this and simply gave users a choice of thumbs up or thumbs down, which I think helps to eliminate that ridiculousness of extremes, although it has some drawbacks as well. Many users can't be trusted to give a reasonably unbiased review of a product they feel passionately about. Others disagree wildly about what various degrees of a rating mean (I've seen one person say they never give five star ratings because no product is perfect, which elicited a *facepalm* from me). And what's the point of a 10 point scale if most games never score below a 6/10 (or likewise with a 100 point scale)?

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    23. Re:Sounds like reasonable changes to me by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1, Redundant

      At the risk of being a bit off-topic...

      Shame on all mods who downmodded dgatwood's post redundant or overrated (his post currently stands at 0 Redundant). I disagreed completely with his conclusions, but he presented them clearly, politely, and intelligently. Moderation is not supposed to be a "I disagree with your opinion, and therefore I'm going to silence you" button. You continue to do that, and you'll simply be turning /. into an echo-chamber (well, more than it already is) where no one dares disagree on any substantial issue.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    24. Re:Sounds like reasonable changes to me by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      I agree. Reviews from someone who bought the item are more valuable.

      The change might cut out people who bought the item thru another channel.

      My main issue are fake reviews. And a company can always "sell" an item to it's employees who then give it glowing reviews. And buy products from competitors and give them terrible reviews.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    25. Re:Sounds like reasonable changes to me by rochrist · · Score: 1

      Technical books are one thing, but Amazon reviews of fiction are pretty close to worthless. I've seen books with all 5 star ratings that are not even functionally literate.

    26. Re:Sounds like reasonable changes to me by rochrist · · Score: 2

      Of course it will be programmed to maximize sales.

    27. Re:Sounds like reasonable changes to me by Fnord666 · · Score: 2

      There are no standards to ratings, no commonality among them, and little in terms of a rational guideline to do the reviews. These changes impose a little bit of discipline, but IMHO, Amazon's search functions repel users more than the reviews attract them.

      The latest trick I have been seeing is the "there's a newer version of this item" link on an item's page. Click on that link will just take you to the same item being sold by a different seller. I don't know how the seller is managing to get their version flagged that way though. No way to report the issue either.

      --
      'The tyrant will always find pretext for his tyranny.' - Aesop's Fables
    28. Re:Sounds like reasonable changes to me by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure I'm getting your logic, now if this person bought and reviewed both then you might have a point, but just because they bought a different similar product doesn't mean they know anything about the product they didn't buy.

      The logic is simple. People don't bother writing reviews about products unless they have a reason to do so. That reason is either because they bought it and liked it/didn't like it or because they chose not to buy it because they chose something else, but took the time to consider it. In the latter case, there's a 100% chance that they are at least somewhat familiar with multiple products. In the former case, there's a much less than 100% chance.

      Therefore, you have better odds of learning actual facts that you don't know about the product (as opposed to pure opinions) by reading a review from someone who chose a competing product over the one you're considering than by reading a review from someone who bought the product.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    29. Re:Sounds like reasonable changes to me by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      That's some pretty convoluted logic there, at least by my reckoning. If the user hasn't purchased the item in question, how exactly are you assuming he/she knows the product sufficiently that they're in a suitable position to review it, judging it's strengths and weaknesses?

      I don't, but with the exception of books and movies, you also can't assume that people who bought the product know the product well enough to review it. The majority of reviews are posted within a couple of weeks after buying a product, for better or worse. For anything more complicated than a toaster, by the time people really know the product well enough to give it a thorough review, they've owned it for at least six months.

      Worse, if you assume a typical one-year product cycle, that means half the purchasers won't understand the product well enough to give it a good review until after the next product is on the market and nobody cares about the one they bought.

      The way I approach buying products consists of different approaches for different types of information:

      • Product failures: Analyze first in aggregate based on the number of people reporting failures in the product, then historically based on the number of people reporting failures in previous similar products by that manufacturer, under the assumption that most failures will occur after the next model comes out.
      • Product support by the manufacturer (e.g. firmware upgrades): Analyze historically based on similar products in previous years.
      • Comparison of features and usability: Seek out people who mention other products in their reviews, either because they chose to buy those other products instead or because they chose to buy this product over the others. Ignore all other reviews, because they rarely contain enough objective data to be of value.

      Now that last one isn't precisely true; sometimes other posts do contain objective data, though they are a lot less likely to do so. I usually skim a few 5/5 and 1/5 reviews to see if I spot patterns, and if so, I then decide whether those patterns are indicative of device malfunction or user malfunction... but that's the last step of analysis for products that I didn't rule out in the previous, easy steps. :-)

      Also, if the product sucks, assuming the product isn't so bad that folks return it, people who own the product are more likely to feel the need to give it better reviews to justify the money they spent.

      Wow... again. I'd bet that people who have purchased a product and are unhappy with it are actually *more* likely to review it harshly in an effort to punish the company for their poor product, and at least warn others against a crappy purchase. There are some old marketing saws that say similar things, I believe.

      It's not my theory. We even have a term for people who do that frequently: fanboys. Worse, those rare people who understand a product well enough to give it a thorough review in the first few weeks of ownership are much more likely to be fanboys, because that usually only happens if they've already owned a similar product from that same manufacturer. So the least accurate reviews are likely to be the positive reviews that look the most accurate....

      At the very least, that holds true for me. I've purchased a couple of stinkers, and I made damn sure to leave a one or two star review, and explain in detail *why* it was such a terrible product.

      Me, too. I've also often posted reviews on products with obvious design flaws that I chose not to buy, in which I explained in detail why it was a terrible product. And invariably when I do, I get a bunch of whining idiots asking me how I can possibly know how well something will work without buying it. And my answer is something li

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    30. Re:Sounds like reasonable changes to me by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      I could be missing something, but frankly everything I read in the summery seems like reasonable changes to me.

      Someone who actually is known to have purchased the item, yea, their review should be worth more than random Internet person #4827341

      A review from last month is probably worth more than one from two years ago. The product may have changed.

      Well, hopefully Amazon is not doing what TigerDirect was and may still be doing, re-editing or "correcting" customer reviews, particularly negative ones.

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
  2. Stop grouping revisions by magusxxx · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The other problem is that they'll group different models on the same page. So the reviews you see are for all the models together. In many cases Version B is way better than Version A. But, you still see the bad reviews without realizing it's unrelated to what you're going to buy. They also need to address the paid bad reviewers. I looked up stuff just last week and the same one star review, word for word, was listed on three different items. And these were three totally unrelated items. One in electronics, one in cookware, and the third in camping equipment.

    --
    Care killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back.
    1. Re:Stop grouping revisions by berberine · · Score: 1

      This is one of the problems I have come across a lot. I was looking at purchasing a hard drive. One particular company's 500 GB and 2 TB drives got good reviews, but the 1 TB drive had some major problems. It was a pain in the ass trying to figure out which review went with which drive unless the reviewer specifically said it.

    2. Re:Stop grouping revisions by Solandri · · Score: 2

      They're starting to address this. I was shopping for a parabolic wifi antenna recently. Amazon lumps the reviews for 4 different types (different dBi) with 2 different connectors together even though they're all very different products. If you scroll down to the reviews, you'll see above each review is what specific product the reviewer purchased - dBi and connector type.

  3. Another company trashes its most useful product... by bluegutang · · Score: 1

    Good, useful reviews don't appear every day. If a review is 2 years old and hundreds of people have said that it's useful, that's probably because it IS useful.

    This change seems designed to turn the review section into a discussion forum where you have to reload every few minutes to participate in the latest discussion. I suppose this is good for Amazon's advertising revenue, but it's bad for customers who want to know what to buy or not to buy.

  4. Re:reverse Amazon shopping by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I'm happy to see improvements in the review system. I rarely buy anything from Amazon (shipping takes time, returns are a hassle), but I often use their pages to check reviews and compare items before I buy them.

    Are you aware that such an action violates their Terms of Service? You are a common criminal.

  5. Amazon Vine by Smerta · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'd be interested to know if the data-crunchers at Amazon have looked at the Amazon Vine reviews, as a group, to see if they are slanted positive.

    Amazon Vine is the program where a certain select demographic of Amazon customers receive free stuff (including items such as 60" TVs, laptops, etc.), with the understanding that they will objectively review the product and post the review on Amazon. My experience is that almost every Amazon Vine review is 4-5 stars. I'd also be curious to see if Amazon looks at the spread of reviews from Vine reviewers -- by that I mean, "Do reviewers in the Vine program rate free Vine products higher than other products they've bought?"

    The implication being that Vine reviews (many of them) probably feel that a good review of a product that Amazon wants to sell is "quid pro quo". I strongly suspect that Amazon wants exactly the opposite of quid pro quo; they want early Vine reviews to weed out marginal or bad products.

    1. Re:Amazon Vine by houghi · · Score: 1

      You need to know how Amazon gets to the products. Are they actually random, or is Amazon payed to enter certain products into the Vine revieuws program. If that is the case, they themselves fall under the trap of "quit pro quo".

      And I can easily see that Amazon would like to have more positive than negative revies as a negative review could mean a non-sale. And most of the time people tell themselves it was money well spend (Hey, they do it for politics as well. Human nature I guess)

      The reason they like some negative reviews is because it makes them seem impartial. If this means the reviews are 50/50, a Vine could make the balance go to positive when it was used early enough.

      With an enough large product assortment and a large enough buyers base, this can easiy mean the Vine project is making them money. Probably will not work on each and every product and not all the time, but it might just be good enough. It is just their way of doing marketing and all the time saying 'but it is objective testing' with a straight face, while you know that removing the progran will cost you money and THAT is what the game is about.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
  6. Re:Another company trashes its most useful product by magusxxx · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Well, yes and no... http://www.amazon.com/gp/custo... ... This person's one star review was posted three years ago and has garnered 76 responses. The most current was 20 days ago. It's amazing seeing the "You're right" - "No, you're wrong" conversation. Even when the company, right from the beginning, stated, "This is how your testing methods are faulty...", people are still saying this one star review has convinced them not to buy the product. [BTW: 88% of 4,121 people gave this product a 4-5 star review. ] So, while this review has survived the test of time, the only usefulness it has achieved is to show how bad testing methods are readily accepted if it's buried in enough data.

    --
    Care killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back.
  7. Caveat Emptor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I could be missing something, but frankly everything I read in the summery seems like reasonable changes to me

    Amazon's review section is notoriously filled with fake reviews - in fact, Shanghai-Bill himself has admitted that his 15-year old daughter is getting jobs from fivers writing fake reviews on Amazon and is making $20/hr

    And I can bet you my bottom dollar that Shanghai Bill's 15-yr old daughter is definitely *NOT* the only one making $$ writing fake Amazon reviews

    Now that Amazon wants to tilt the whole system into something even worse --- and their decision on putting more weight on 'newer reviews' only mean that there will be even more brand new fake reviews appearing, along with vote stuffings by ghost visitors for those fake reviews

    1. Re:Caveat Emptor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You must have missed the bit that says: "Reviews from verified purchasers will have more influence as well".

      Similarly, if they're applying machine learning to the whole system, they could fairly quickly pick out people who seem to do nothing but review items on Amazon, or people who create accounts and do nothing but review items, etc.

      Gaming the system will still happen, but it'll be harder.

    2. Re:Caveat Emptor by Deep+Esophagus · · Score: 1

      I agree, those changes will make it slightly harder to game the system, except for this part:
      "...and also reviews voted up by other customers."

      Unless those "other customers" are also verified purchasers, there's your loophole. Bots and crowdsourcing can still beat the system.

  8. Stop conflating Blu-Ray Theatrical and Director's by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 2

    The reviews are (mostly) fine the way they are.

    What really needs an overhaul is Amazon lumping together the Theatrical release and Director's cut of Blu-Rays. The first edition picture quality (PQ) of Gladiator was total garbage. Enough people complained that they got the studio to re-release it with proper picture quality. Lumping together LotR (Lord of the Rings) Theatrical and Director's Cut makes it hard to tell what is where.

  9. The worst reviews on Amazon by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "I have to give this book one star because I ordered it and it never arrived on time even though Amazon said it left the facility six days before it was supposed to get here!"

    "This book is typical LIBTARD crap and if you buy it you're a stupid egghead."

    "I haven't read a book in five years so when this book came out I decided to buy it. This isn't the book I thought I was ordering, this is crap written by a different guy with a similar name! Buyer beware!"

    Is it really that hard to get a computer to pick these out?

    1. Re:The worst reviews on Amazon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's a legitimate review. If a movie is that bad then it's perfectly fair to right that review. Some movies are that bad and people should know that. You shouldn't have to sit through a whole movie that you hate in order to write a review. Rarely, if ever, is a move that bad in the first half hour and worth watching later on.

  10. Transcript of a recent meeting at Dice HQ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Boss: What the hell? Slashdot's revenue dropped again? What happened?

    Middle management #1: That is strange, our beta design was supposed to increase traffic.

    Middle management #2: Yeah strange right? We spent weeks making sure the beta was difficult to use as hell, then we shove it down the user's throat, how could our traffic tank after that? HOW?

    Middle management #3: It can't be our fault, my 3 years old son was playing with beta before the launch and he absolutely loved it, he just learnt how to use a mouse and he was clicking around rapidly, he was so excited by the design he even clicked on the ads, if everyone did that our views and revenue should have tripled by now.

    Boss: Well we got to do something, any ideas?

    Middle management #1: Hmmm... well I heard there is something call 'social media', I haven't looked at it yet but it looks like people love sharing things on it, maybe we can use that?

    Middle management #2: Yeah I heard about that too, my daughter said she uses it to share elmo photos.

    Middle management #3: Oh I got an idea! Let's put a bunch of social media share link on the site!

    Middle management #1: Sounds good to me, but if everyone is already doing it we need to do something a little different.

    Middle management #2: How about... Oh I know, let's remove the most useful and popular 'read more' link, and replace it with a bunch of share links. I swear the users are so fucking stupid they won't be able to tell the difference.

    Middle management #3: Yeah! Those geeks, they don't know much about computers, they are just going to click on the same place over and over again, and come back for more!

    Boss: Geek site for retards? That is fucking brilliant! Let's do it!

    1. Re:Transcript of a recent meeting at Dice HQ by AmiMoJo · · Score: 5, Informative

      Yup. Seriously, was putting the share button where the "read more..." link used to be designed to make people accidentally click on it? Do you guys do any kind of user testing at all, or were you fully aware that's the most clicked on link on the site and just wanted to abuse it?

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    2. Re:Transcript of a recent meeting at Dice HQ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      this.

      Dice we are getting so tired of your attempt to fix something that is not broken -
          * lose the video crap in the middle of our page
          * lose the share link - swap back the 'read more' link

      perhaps readers should fork this code - you are ruining the experience that made this site what it was.

    3. Re:Transcript of a recent meeting at Dice HQ by kimvette · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Indeed; when /. readers want to share something we generally know how to copy & paste. Now, there are always exceptions to the rule but they are in the vast majority.

      Besides, /. already HAD the share feature; it was just horribly broken. Fix share, put it back where it was, and bring back the Read More link.

      Now, I realize that slashdotters are your product, not your customers, but by not listening to us you're pushing us to continue to choose reddit or even (ugh!) fark over /., thereby reducing the value of product making /. less attractive to your actual customers (advertisers).

      Hey I have an idea - why not take this whole trend one step further and start posting stories about the kardashians, other train wrecks like Lindsay Lohan, Britney Spears, and other child stars who delved into hard drugs or alcohol and ruined their lives, thereby increasing readership, and the all-important ad clicks?

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    4. Re:Transcript of a recent meeting at Dice HQ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      FUCK BETA
      FUCK SHARE :)

    5. Re:Transcript of a recent meeting at Dice HQ by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Seriously, was putting the share button where the "read more..." link used to be designed to make people accidentally click on it?

      I am reasonably certain you are exactly correct.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    6. Re:Transcript of a recent meeting at Dice HQ by MyFirstNameIsPaul · · Score: 2

      Did this same change also include eliminating the option to post discussion items on submissions? For those of us that go there, sometimes there is useful stuff added in the discussion portion of a submission by other people who have read about the topic.

      --

      I once took an excursion to Reddit, and later HN. Unlimited up/down voting sucks when dealing with a hive-mind.

    7. Re:Transcript of a recent meeting at Dice HQ by hankwang · · Score: 1

      The removal of the 'read more' link broke the Avantslash parser as well. But it's fixed now. And... Avantslash still shows a 'read more' link. I was reading m.slashdot.org from my phone over the last few days. Amazing how unusable it still is.

      --
      Avantslash: low-bandwidth mobile slashdot.
    8. Re:Transcript of a recent meeting at Dice HQ by buck-yar · · Score: 1

      Agree 100%. Stop screwing up this site.

      Its fine. Stop, please.

  11. They need two ratings.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    One for the actual object (DVD Blu-ray or Book) describing the quality of what you receive. Plus a separate review for the content. For example: how do you rate a poor transfer to Blu-ray of a terrific film you love. The disc, packaging, commentaries could be poor and deserve two stars for some reason. But what if the film itself deserves five stars?

  12. Re:reverse Amazon shopping by rhodium_mir · · Score: 1

    (shipping takes time, returns are a hassle)

    Funny, shipping time and convenient returns are the two main reasons why I use Amazon as much as I do. Getting something delivered the next day, or two days later if I'm feeling cheap, is often faster than finding time in my schedule to go to whatever specialized store would sell what I'm buying. And returns? What could be easier than slapping a label on the box and setting it outside for the mail carrier?

    --
    You can't spell "oneiromancy" without "roman".
  13. Good for the consumer? by hsa · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yeah, right. Amazon is adjusting the average score from the average score to some propietary algorithm. Yeah, there are talks about tweaks and the marketing makes it sound totally reasonable.

    Amazon sells products. Amazon likes to sell products. Products with higher rating sell better. Products with poor rating sell worse. Amazon would like to sell more products.

    I can bet $1000 right now that the "average rating" is going to go up.

    1. Re:Good for the consumer? by chihowa · · Score: 2

      "Average score" is a stupid metric for comparing ratings anyway. Here's a little discussion about several different utterly wrong ways to make sense of ratings, "average score" being #2.

      Your "average score" would rate a product with a single 5 star rating higher than one with 45,000 ratings averaging out to 4.999. Their "proprietary algorithm" is likely to be more useful to everybody than a bunk rating system like "average score".

      Anyway, if all of the ratings go up, then you just continue to compare them to each other like you did before. It's not like anyone bases purchases on the absolute star rating of any particular product.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    2. Re:Good for the consumer? by buck-yar · · Score: 1

      You would lose that bet.

    3. Re:Good for the consumer? by buck-yar · · Score: 1

      Of course the number of reviews is important. Which is why its very easy to see how many reviews it has.

  14. Top reviewers are invariably fake by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Pick almost any item, movie, game, consumer electronic device and look for the highest rated "reviews". They are invariable nothing more than paraphrased product release texts. The "reviewer" does not have the item, has not used the item and probably has never seen it in the flesh.

    There is a large number of people that must create reviews for items all day every day. I find it remarkable Amazon allow these people to post these disguised adverts or non-reviews. Surely they know when someone is taking the piss by posting 50 reviews per day.

  15. May finally be time to abandon ship... by bradley13 · · Score: 3, Informative

    As Dice transforms /. into yet another random site (video section, meaningless pictures attached to articles, and now social media buttons), it become clear that I am no longer part of their target audience. I hate those crappy social media share buttons - they're nothing but trackers in another form.

    Hello Soylent

    --
    Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
  16. Re:reverse Amazon shopping by reboot246 · · Score: 1

    Count yourself lucky. Since Amazon has been using the USPS more and more, their 2 day shipping to Prime customers has been more like "you'll get it when the Post Office eventually gets it to you".

    I would love it if they gave me a choice of shippers. The worst one in my area is FedEx. I honestly believe the drivers can't read. The Post Office is slower, but at least they deliver to the right address.

  17. Re:reverse Amazon shopping by phantomlord · · Score: 1

    I buy things from Amazon pretty regularly for both business and personal needs. Out of 50+ orders in the last 2 years, I've had 2 packages show up late and got a free month extension of my Prime benefits each time just by asking for it.

    --
    Don't leave your mind so open that your brain falls out. Don't close it so much that you cut off the blood.
  18. good step, but... by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I wish they would find a way to separate reviews of different formats. It gets annoying trying to determine which edition of a classic movie is being reviewed on Amazon. They lump VHS, DVD, & Bluray along with all editions together. It can be interesting reading someone's opinion on classic movies, but I'm more interested in format/edition information about Citizen Kane than what someone thinks about it. Some movies have had multiple Bluray releases, and some are considerably better than others. The newest is not always the best.

    This can also be the case with older music. There was a studio back in the late 1960's/early 1970's that did not have the recording speed of their equipment calibrated properly. It actually recorded at a slower rate than it should have. Some remastered versions took this into account, but several newer ones did not. This is a case where edition specific reviews are very important to me.

    1. Re:good step, but... by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      This is a case where edition specific reviews are very important to me.

      Then you should be looking on some audiophile / high definition music sites where people actually understand this rather than a site that also sells plastic spoons.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    2. Re:good step, but... by kimvette · · Score: 1

      OMG, Amazon sells plastic spoons? JUST WHAT I NEEDED! Okay, here's a review:

      "Best spoon evar! All other spoons suck!!!"

      SOLD!!!

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    3. Re:good step, but... by lgw · · Score: 1

      Then you should be looking on some audiophile / high definition music sites where people actually understand this rather than a site that also sells plastic spoons.

      Sites where you can buy the special green markers for the edges of CDs? And directional speaker cables? Are your interconnects "danceable"? Maybe you didn't pay enough.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    4. Re:good step, but... by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 1

      Sure, but Amazon should at least make an effort to classify the reviews for the correct format/version. That's the problem. You could easily be reading a review for the fifty dollar special edition while looking at the ten dollar version. Some reviewers are smart enough to specify. But others are not. Often times I'd rather get the extended version of a movie in single disk packaging because I don't care about four hundred hours of documentary shows about the movie. I simply want to watch it with the extended footage.

  19. Re:They need three ratings.. by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

    Two, as you indicated, plus a third for the people who received something that was broken in transit or poorly packed but are too fucking lazy (or stupid) to rate the seller.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  20. Re:This is extremely bad by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

    I almost always skip the 1 and 5 star ratings (unless there's a severe preponderance of 1 star). 4s and 2s tend to give you a much better picture.

    But, then again, if you're looking at the comments and star distribution you're not really relying on the overall single score and the new algorithm won't really matter in your selection process.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  21. Re:reverse Amazon shopping by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

    I buy things from Amazon pretty regularly for both business and personal needs. Out of 50+ orders in the last 2 years, I've had 2 packages show up late and got a free month extension of my Prime benefits each time just by asking for it.

    Amazon's customer service is, frankly, second to none... They are rather old-school in terms of "the customer is always, always right... make them happy at almost any cost..."

    In return, I buy almost everything from Amazon, from computer parts to paper towels...

  22. Yes the reviews need improvement by sjbe · · Score: 1

    The reviews are (mostly) fine the way they are.

    Could not disagree more. The signal to noise ratio on most reviews is seriously poor. I regularly see paid shills (some obvious others less so), idiots who order the wrong item but still feel the need to "review" what they got, people who conflate UPS delivery with Amazon's service, reviews for different products or obsolete models of earlier products unrelated to the one being sold, useless reviews with no details explaining why the product is good or bad, reviews that are years old and no longer relevant, etc. There is an awful lot of BS to filter through. Any online review needs to be read with a skeptical eye but Amazon definitely could do more to make the reviews more helpful and relevant.

    Can you get useful information from Amazon reviews? Sure. They definitely can be useful. But to claim they don't need improvement is just absurdly and demonstrably false.

  23. Parody reviews by kimvette · · Score: 1

    I hope this doesn't result in the removal of parody reviews. Manually take them out of the weighting algorithm, sure, but please leave them, for the likes of Monster cables, Denon's ethernet cable, uranium oxide samples, reviews which pop up when a price gets bumped up by 33,300% due to occasional glitches in Amazon's dynamic pricing algorithm, and so forth.

    Also, PLEASE kill the reviews which rate items a 1 because UPS destroyed the package. That isn't Amazon's fault; it's UPS's fault for shoving 65,000 packages per hour through a conveyor system designed to handle 27,000 packages per hour, resulting in UPS sorters/pickoffs "accidentally" pushing packages (usually the higher ticket items) off of 25' high conveyors onto the ground below out of anger and frustration. Yes, this does happen, and it's not Amazon's fault; it's UPSes for not running longer shifts, poor planning, and putting unrealistic demands on UPS hub workers. The reviews which are based on UPS's malfeasance should not apply to the rating of the product, because the reviews are supposed to be about the product, not the shipper. Same goes for when UPS sorters mis-pick an item sending it to the wrong part of the country, making the product late. That isn't Amazon's fault either.

    --
    The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
  24. Different Models? Completely Different Products by CrashNBrn · · Score: 1

    Different models are definitely a problem, what's worse though are completely different products. Like this UTech Mouse --- also lists 3 other mice, and two keyboards. The reviews and "product ratings" are *shared* by 5 different products.

  25. I'll remain skeptical until I see by PJ6 · · Score: 2

    reviews and upvotes paid for by the author removed.

    They should also ban all the "top reviewers" that sell their votes.

  26. Borrowed, gift, purchased elsewhere by tepples · · Score: 2

    If the user hasn't purchased the item in question, how exactly are you assuming he/she knows the product sufficiently that they're in a suitable position to review it, judging it's strengths and weaknesses?

    Someone can know a product even if it was purchased through a channel other than Amazon, or received as a gift, or borrowed from a friend, or (in the case of books) borrowed from a public library or on Kindle Unlimited.

    You're telling me that, for example, a Playstation 4 owner is in a better position to review an Xbox one, and we should trust their judgment as being more objective and fair than someone who actually purchased an Xbox one?

    A PlayStation 4 owner tries a Wii U at a store or friend's house, discovers that the graphics on its games are roughly as detailed as those of PlayStation 3 games, and thus is justified in composing a review on Amazon without buying a Wii U on Amazon.

  27. Computer Fraud and Abuse Act by tepples · · Score: 1

    Good thing ToS are not enforceable.

    In what country? The United States, home of SlashdotMedia, has the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. Internet activist Aaron Swartz ended up committing suicide over threats to prosecute him for CFAA violation for having spidered JSTOR.

  28. Download the app to sign up by tepples · · Score: 1

    How much of a "review" can you make with a seven-second video shot on a smartphone anyway?

  29. Re:reverse Amazon shopping by rhodium_mir · · Score: 1

    I had the same problem when they first made the switch to USPS but it's been much better recently. Sunday delivery is nice, too.

    --
    You can't spell "oneiromancy" without "roman".
  30. Re:reverse Amazon shopping by JanneM · · Score: 2

    I usually buy direct in store. Shipping time zero. Prices have adjusted, at least around here, so that in-store prices aren't much different from the online ones.

    Typically I'm browsing at a book store on the way home from work, and discover a book I might like. I could order it and get it a few days later, or walk out the store, book in hand. I'm an adult, with disposable income, so a hundred yen or two price difference doesn't matter to me. Being able to get the book right then does. Amazon is great for finding out what other people think about the book before I buy it.

    Another example was my used oscilloscope. Buying second-hand things online is a gamble, and returning it is a major pain (get a cardboard box, arrange for the return and get and fill in a return label, be home to do the delivery). I went to a local shop instead. They hooked it up right in the shop to make sure it worked and to show me the basics of using it. And had there been a problem they would have come by in a car to pick it up directly. Much better. But Amazon did tell me which of the available models were better for me.

    --
    Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
  31. Amazon product search SHOULD NOT INCLUDE Reviews by Kevoco · · Score: 1

    Let's say a reviewer for whatever reason wants to compare the item they are reviewing with some other product. When a search is done for THAT OTHER PRODUCT, the first product comes up in the Amazon search results, because, well, I don't know why - they thought (think?) they are being helpful, BUT THEY AREN'T.

    Who cares what someone writes in a product review when it comes to product search?

    Example: Let's say I am searching for a very specific model or replacement part. I have the manufacturer part number and someone at some time has reviewed SOME OTHER THING and merely mentioned a comparison to the item I am looking for... Now that WRONG part is going to come up in my search result. Do you know how tedious it is to chase down false search results? I friggin' hate that.

  32. No word if companies can still pull products.. by bored · · Score: 1

    With bad reviews, and then recreate them as clean products without any reviews. I've had this happen to a couple products I wrote bad reviews for. Polar in particular released the RC3 a couple years ago, and there were a ton of bad reviews about broken chest straps, broken buttons, GPS's that wouldn't lock up, etc.. Good luck finding any of those reviews, they changed the SKU (or something) a couple years back and all the old bad reviews (which were close to a 1 start rating) are no longer applied to the product. My review is still in my profile, but it links to a product which is "no longer available" even though you can find the RC3 still for sale on amazon.

  33. Re:reverse Amazon shopping by buck-yar · · Score: 1

    Ebay sellers ship quicker, and 90% of the time are cheaper than amazon.

  34. Re:People who don't review by buck-yar · · Score: 1

    Not just people with problems review items now. With so few people in the work force, many people have all day with not much to do (seniors, stay at home moms...). Hence the very well done reviews. I've seen multi-page positive reviews that had to have taken an hour or two to write.