Controversial GCHQ Unit Engaged In Domestic Law Enforcement, Online Propaganda

Advocatus Diaboli writes: Documents published by The Intercept on Monday reveal that a British spy unit purported by officials to be focused on foreign intelligence and counterterrorism, and notorious for using "controversial tactics, online propaganda and deceit,” focuses extensively on traditional law enforcement and domestic activities. The documents detail how the Joint Threat Research Intelligence Group (JTRIG) is involved in efforts against political groups it considers "extremist," Islamist activity in schools, the drug trade, online fraud, and financial scams. The story reads: "Though its existence was secret until last year, JTRIG quickly developed a distinctive profile in the public understanding, after documents from NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden revealed that the unit had engaged in 'dirty tricks' like deploying sexual 'honey traps' designed to discredit targets, launching denial-of-service attacks to shut down internet chat rooms, pushing veiled propaganda onto social networks, and generally warping discourse online."

Comments

doing it

[zlives]

doing it for the children

Re:doing it

[Anonymous Coward]

Western Demo©®acy is quickly falling apart. We have totally lost our moral high ground in our criticism towards authoritarian governments. Wake up people...

Re:doing it

[Anonymous Coward]

Like a catholic!

And so, what is wrong with this?

[xevioso]

England is dealing with a fairly extensive and real group of Muslim fundamentalists. It's much more noticeable over there than it is here in the states. Are people implying that the government over there shouldn't try to keep track of a group of people who have stated very clearly they would like to see the spread of Islamic law? A group of people that has sent young men to Iraq and Syria to fight and die for ISIS?

Re: And so, what is wrong with this?

[Anonymous Coward]

As a chap in England - you what? The IRA were scary maybe, the ISIS in England issue is mostly noise.

Re:And so, what is wrong with this?

[Anonymous Coward]

Personally I don't mind them doing these sorts of things agains muslims. Islam is one of the most toxic cultures on the planet. However, according to the summary the program does not end there. It is the inevitable power creep that seems to permeate these types of organizations that I fear.

Re:And so, what is wrong with this?

[Anonymous Coward]

Its the methods that are the concern, not the choice of targets.

Re:And so, what is wrong with this?

[The Raven]

I think it's more that a group which claims to be focused on external threats, and uses tactics that few would be comfortable using on citizens of their country, is focusing mostly on standard internal issues which are normally the purview of the regular police.

To put it another way, when I use my handgun to deal with an armed intruder to my home nobody would think ill of me. If I use that handgun to deal with my disobedient teenager then it's an entirely different issue. Even if the teenager is (for example) stealing from me just like the burgler was trying to, it's not an acceptable response. We have acceptable means to deal with our children, and a handgun is not on the menu.

Similarly, using DDOS, propaganda, and blackmail on your own citizens is not the appropriate response even if we may condone it against foreign nations in limited circumstances, just as we condone (at least in the United States) the use of handguns in limited circumstances.

Re:And so, what is wrong with this?

[Anonymous Coward]

Learn to read, then maybe you'll be able to spot the mission creep.

Re:And so, what is wrong with this?

[Anonymous Coward]

That is an interesting point of view and some pointed questions. Do you find asking questions is a good way to create doubt? Is that tactic perhaps informed by knowledge of psychology?

Re:And so, what is wrong with this?

[Anonymous Coward]

And what issues are worthy vs. unworthy of doubt? Who decides which questions get asked?

Re: And so, what is wrong with this?

[Anonymous Coward]

As a chap in England - you what?

JTRIG imposter derailing the discussion! Everyone knows a real Brit would've pronounced it "u wot m8"...

Re: And so, what is wrong with this?

[rtb61]

Of course the fundamentalist capitalists are the real concern. The zealot high priests of capitalism have of course actively corrupted UK intelligence organisation to turn them into anti-activism and anti-union organisation with a distinct Tory flavour, this after the active corruption of the Labour Party leadership by the same corrupt organisations.

All sorts of strange crap going on. First anti-EU and the pro-Eu, next joining in the push to move NATO forces eastward or is that just trying to kick as many US soldiers out of western Europe and force them on the Eastern Europeans, they can no put up with that drunken rapey bunch. Eastern Europe of course under pressure to take them because of their economies being hit by trade problems with Russia caused by the US and EU sanctions (sanctions to be dropped once the shift of US occupation forces from western Europe to Eastern Europe - suckers). All on internet censorship, anti hacking except when they do it, even against there on citizens upon a massive scale (that of course is anti-political activism and nothing to do with terrorism).

Right now Europe is far more scared of the US going out of control than they are of Russia and the UK seems to be hopping from one foot to the other, language seeming to be insufficient to keep five eyes 'er' ole one eye and four blind mice together (ole one eye just tells way too many lies, way to often, especially to it's so called allies).

Re: And so, what is wrong with this?

[Rujiel]

So in short, you're okay with paid government shills on the web because muslims? Even then, I don't buy that you're enough of a dupe to think muslims are the reaaon, when other leaks show the main goal of these activities is to target people in the first world, not the third.

Re: And so, what is wrong with this?

[Required Snark]

Right now Europe is far more scared of the US going out of control than they are of Russia

You're absolutely right. That's why Europeans are asking that Russia predeploy heavy weapons in their territory in case of military actions.

RIGA, Latvia — In a significant move to deter possible Russian aggression in Europe, the Pentagon is poised to store battle tanks, infantry fighting vehicles and other heavy weapons for as many as 5,000 American troops in several Baltic and Eastern European countries, American and allied officials say.

The proposal, if approved, would represent the first time since the end of the Cold War that the United States has stationed heavy military equipment in the newer NATO member nations in Eastern Europe that had once been part of the Soviet sphere of influence. Russia’s annexation of Crimea and the war in eastern Ukraine have caused alarm and prompted new military planning in NATO capitals.

Uhh, something is backwards about this...

Re: And so, what is wrong with this?

[rtb61]

Yep, the US via NATO doesn't want to end it's occupation of Europe but the pressure is on to remove US troops from more influential likely to become ex-NATO countries. NATO of course pumps war because the military industrial complex demands it and it drives fear because the dominant country does not ever want its military to leave Europe. Which country has murdered more people than the rest of the world combined in the last 25 years, in fact the only way other countries come close to catching up is joining the Imperialist US wars. Plenty of marketing and propaganda but the reality is, most of the world's countries are totally sick of the US military as controlled by the US military industrial complex and want to end it's scattered occupation of the entire planet.

Re:And so, what is wrong with this?

[Chrisq]

Absolutely. Only idiots (dave420 springs to mind) would think that islamist extremist activity in schools is a good thing.

Re:And so, what is wrong with this?

[gweihir]

Have a look into the KGB, the GeStaPo, the numerous other secret police forces in the various historical and present totalitarian regimes. Hint: These people never serve the people, only ever those in power. The secrecy eliminates all possibility of meaningful oversight, and these people cannot keep themselves under control.

Re:And so, what is wrong with this?

[dave420]

Islam is a religion, not a culture. If you can't even get that right, why should anyone think you're right about anything else? Why do you think you're right if you are spouting demonstrable nonsense, and willing to judge 1.6 billion people on something you made up?

Re:And so, what is wrong with this?

[dave420]

So you don't understand the difference between Islam and Islamism. That's not really a surprise - you keep interchanging distinct terms as if they mean the same thing. You're not really doing yourself favours by showing the world you are clueless of something you purport to hate.

Re:And so, what is wrong with this?

[Anonymous Coward]

Same fucking thing. Social memes passed on through vocal and written communication.

Re:And so, what is wrong with this?

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed: It helps listening to that pot puffing clown's themesong https://www.youtube.com/watch?... to laugh at his pot brain delusions all the more!

Re:And so, what is wrong with this?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why'd arabs end up in deserts then? Good people drove them there. Al Tiquyya lies do not honesty make. A religion of peace that says to convert by fire and sword is no religion of peace. More like lying bullshit constantly.

Re:And so, what is wrong with this?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why'd arabs end up in deserts then? Good people drove them there. Al Tiquyya lies do not honesty make. A religion of peace that says to convert by fire and sword is no religion of peace. More like lying bullshit constantly. Why's the middleeast where they are constantly in violent turmoil for such a religion of peace? It's because deceitful klingon looking monsters run it that have extremely high amounts of primitive neanderthalic DNA present in their breed "humans mixed with Neanderthals not just in the Middle East" from http://www.theregister.co.uk/2... . That's why. Primitoids that if they try their crap again will be on the receiving end of a nuclear teardrop.

Re: And so, what is wrong with this?

[KGIII]

Murder has a definition and why restrict it to 25 years?

Re:And so, what is wrong with this?

[KGIII]

Islam could be a culture. The word has multiple definitions. This is from TheSage which is a nice application but is not the OED or Webster's:

Lemma: culture

Noun
  1. The raising of plants or animals.
  2. (Biology) The growing of microorganisms in a nutrient medium (such as gelatin or agar).
  3. The tastes in art and manners that are favored by a social group.
  4. All the knowledge and values shared by a society.
  5. The attitudes and behavior that are characteristic of a particular social group or organization.
  6. A particular society at a particular time and place.
  7. A highly developed state of perfection; having a flawless or impeccable quality.

Verb
  1. Grow in a special preparation.

The three bold definitions, more so the fifth, could apply but I am not sure there is such a thing as a ubiquitous Islamic culture. All the Muslims that I know are quite peaceful and rather Westernized.

Re: And so, what is wrong with this?

[rtb61]

Have you not being paying attention? Why twenty five years, because some countries have been getting worse, USA, much worse and some countries have been getting better Russia and China. Yet main stream media claims the exact opposite of reality because of course they are part of that corporate empire, that psychopathic empire and all so vulnerable because it is only a few troubled pathetic individuals in their crazed delusions orchestrating things. No grand conspiracy of course, no course to the future, just self serving egoistic chaos. A few individuals who inherited more power than they should have and who have exposed themselves and now placed themselves under great risk. For a bunch of countries, they are a great threat, one that can pretty readily and safely be eliminated and as a result pretty much stall the western military industrial complex.

Re: And so, what is wrong with this?

[KGIII]

I have been paying attention indeed. I still wonder why one looks at only 25 years of data and attempts to make a conclusion. You could probably draw the conclusions you want with the entirety of the data if you cared to use it. Additionally, lawful killings are not murder. Now we can debate whose laws apply if we want but that is not pertinent either. The US is responsible for all sorts of atrocities, some of which are killings, and this is not new.

Re:And so, what is wrong with this?

[Anonymous Coward]

So same as all religions then.

Re:And so, what is wrong with this?

[Chrisq]

I'm sure you have never read the Qur'an and therefore don't know what Islam is.

How long will it take?

[gladius17]

How long will it take before people finally see this system as being the corrupt piece of shit it really is? UK and the USA are both fascist police states.

Re:How long will it take?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're not being censored and it's not that people necessarily disagree with you, but this type of alarmism is simply unconstructive. Identify the specific problems you find in society and work toward a positive change, or just sit back and ride it out, but don't stall out in the middle just getting all pissed off, it achieves nothing.

Re:How long will it take?

[AHuxley]

Re: "How long will it take before people finally see":
Internally the 1980's trade union ban was telling and the public could see the marching by UK staff to keep their union membership.
The union ban stayed in place for years and reflected on hours, working conditions and how the UK gov treated its own trusted security cleared staff.
The wider public and security researchers now fully understand cell-site tracking, dirtboxes, voice prints, junk global encryption standards, efforts against VPN, efforts to contain all security software, total recall of all networked communications within or out of the UK.
What seems to be new is understanding of the change from just total network collection to use of sock puppets and tracking of "thinking" or talking to the press or publishing domestically.
Methods once hinted at been reserved for foreign journalists or gov officials is now understood to be in use domestically for any domestic thought crime.
The methods seem to be reverting back to a 1920-50's idea to have total control over the press, new media and people using the domestic media.
People where much more easy to track if they thought they where "free" like in the and the UK gov fully understood that.
Once people understand the networks are all been tracked they will just stop using the effortless digital networks.
The UK will then be back to the expensive problem of having to use very traditional methods.

Re:How long will it take?

[KGIII]

How the hell is this person's comment a troll? Moderate how you want but -1 Troll is not an acceptable, to me, substitute for, "I do not get it." I may not agree with the person above, it happens that I do, but this certainly is not a troll by any definition I can think of. Feel free to enlighten me if somebody would like but I do not get how that is a troll post. Not agreeing does not make it not a troll. Not understanding is not a reason to moderate it as a troll.

Global Warming is a bigger concern than this

[Anonymous Coward]

While all you jokers dare discussing silly conspiracy theories, you could be helping to reduce our carbon emissions.

Re:Global Warming is a bigger concern than this

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah spying supercomputers use no electricity and turning them off by making spying illegal wouldn't do a bit to help the carbon footprint.

So long as ...

[Anonymous Coward]

His Majesty, the king of the Belgians, et al., deign it, all subjects of the great European Empi - I mean Union - shall henceforth be required to submit to reeducation. Subjects retain the fundamental human right to comply with their betters' policies. As you were, peasants.

Zeitgeist

[cosm]

10 years ago this story would have had over 1k comments. Now people just say meh. Collective apathy or mental resignation to the topic coupled with a demoralizing feeling of helplessness....it's been 1984 for a long time now.

Re:Zeitgeist

[Anonymous Coward]

The last time a significant fraction of us stood up for ourselves, we got shelled from orbit by our own media, by the mainstream media, by sites and institutions up and down the internet, and Slashdot joined right in. We know what happens to us when we stand up, and what Slashdot will do, so we're not going to bother getting worked up about it over here.

Sites like Slashdot now support the corruption and criminality going on in the modern world. It's sad to say it, but that's what's happened. I guess there must be too much money in it nowadays, or too little. I don't know.

Re:Zeitgeist

[AHuxley]

Or so many smart readers now have, want, need or will be needing Western gov security clearances. They feel they cannot comment on anything work related anymore.
Very chilling if you know your home network is your work network and every word that is seen is collected.

Re:Zeitgeist

[drinkypoo]

Collective apathy or mental resignation to the topic coupled with a demoralizing feeling of helplessness....it's been 1984 for a long time now.

Too many people are still in favor of the surveillance society to waste effort getting really outraged.

Re:Zeitgeist

[Anonymous Coward]

Last I checked this was America, we don't give two flying f***s about any such bul****t.

Re:Zeitgeist

[Anonymous Coward]

Please enlighten me. What has the media done to you when you stand up to support your views on reality? Shuffled you off to a reeducation camp? Late night visits by the local PD or shifty government employees "suggesting" you stand down? Got you fired from your job or expelled from school? Or when you stood up did you look like a moron to wrapped up in his own high and mighty superiority spouting conspiracy theories and your own customized propaganda? While the government may create propaganda for their own reasons the extremists on both the far left and far right of every issue do a much better job creating their own reality. People talking about the best techniques for chopping a persons head off in some terrorists support sight should not be to surprised when they end up chatting with a law enforcement agent. The government is light years behind the general public when it comes to manipulating and disrupting information on the Internet. The Internet has been co-opted to spread the "Big Lie". No matter how outrageous the lie is the internet allows it to be spread far and wide and eventually the lie suddenly becomes fact. People give way to much credit to the government. They are inefficient and always 2 steps behind. If the intelligence capabilities are so great why are there so many major crimes being committed today? If the government mastery over anything connected to the internet how did someone hack into the government database a couple of weeks ago? The mad man killer in SC last week had a pretty explicit online presence so how did he go unnoticed until he killed 9 people?

Re: Zeitgeist

[Anonymous Coward]

And what, exactly, should we be supposed to do? Protest? We would be ignored and flagged. Take it to the streets? Ignored, gassed, beaten up, arrested and flagged. Also, we end up unemployed and unemployable? Vote? Every candidate has the exact same stance. The vast majority of the population, moreover, seems genuinely convinced that "these measures keep us safe". Who are we to go against the will of the majority?

Re:Zeitgeist

[Anonymous Coward]

Not the GP.

In a word? Peaceniks. People who pointed out that Iraq wasn't involved at all were abused, beaten, bullied, threatened, and insulted.

I was called "anti-American" because I pointed out that if you train enough terrorists, eventually they'll attack you. That, apparently, is anti-American sentiment rather than common sense.

Then we get people like you, you go all stupid hyperbole when someone points out that every time they tried to say something, they'd get a whole bunch of aggressive know-nothings who are happy to follow the official line jump down their throats. Eventually, you just give up.

Of course, when it was eventually admitted that Iraq had nothing to do with it, it wasn't that the dirty filthy peaceniks were right, it was that everyone else was fooled.

So, if you're such a fan of invading places, go sign up and get transferred to Iraq. You'll get what you deserve, one way or another.

Re:Zeitgeist

[Anonymous Coward]

So you're fine with your government's mass data collection? Shame you didn't attach a name to this, so we can quote you back at yourself in the future.

Re:Zeitgeist

[Anonymous Coward]

10 years ago Dice hadn't gone out of their way to ruin Slashdot, so the readership was much greater.

Captcha: topical.

Re: Zeitgeist

[Anonymous Coward]

And, pray tell, what does protesting actually *do*? By your own admission all your protests amounted to nothing. You failed. Those who wanted the war succeeded. Finding out there were no WMD in Iraq in no way vindicates you, because those who wanted the war didn't care about the WMD, they cared about the result which was invading Iraq. And they reached their objective. You did not. They won, you lost. They triumphed, you were defeated. They're still in place, ruling and making money, and you are where? And now tell me I should have a reason to go and join your useless "protests". For what? Nothing? The satisfaction of "having been on the right side"? Thanks but no, thanks. I have a family to feed, including two kids born after 9/11. They will grow up knowing nothing else beside the Surveillance Society. They won't miss anything, if there's anything to be missed. You ivory-tower kids should get into those precious skulls of yours that we real people have real issues to care about, like mortgages and bills to pay to care about that highfalutin' crap you get all sweaty about. We can't afford to end up in some watchlist. I've seen people singled out and either having promotions denied or being dismissed right away after they got called to the police station once too many to explain why they had been seen in some protest where "people known to the authorities" were present and if they were absolutely sure they didn't know them. Yeah, ok, it's a police state? So what? I can't do anything about it and neither can you, mister "I-spent-years-in-college-jerking-off-and-never-worked-a-day-in-my-life-and-proud-of-it". Fuck you and the horse you rode on.

Re:Zeitgeist

[KGIII]

I am not okay with them. I do not fear them either. They can soundly go fuck themselves. They know who I am and the little punks can come find me if they want to. I thought we weren't supposed to be scared of the terrorists and that that was the best way to fight them? I am certain I have heard this view and seen it supported. Why is cowardice okay when it is your government? Screw that. The NSA, CIA, FBI, and the likes can pound sand in their asses and come pay me a whiny visit if they are afraid of my attitude. They can black bag me or haul me off to Gitmo. I am not scared and I will not allow their transgressions to change my life, opinions, or choices. Why do you limit yourself to two choices?

Cameron is a crypto-fascist douch

[Anonymous Coward]

Title says it all.

The US does the same.

[Jack Zombie]

Certain IRC channels are being interfered by US professional trolls. They work in teams and create fake discussions to influence and to bait out radicals.

Here is one log of two of them trying to bait with supposedly secret information on drone technology. Notice that the main one mirrors radical ideas as bait, too.

http://pastebin.com/sfnkmDFD

I imagine that this is done to prevent another Snowden.

This is a popular online forum

[Atmchicago]

This is a popular online forum. You can bet that all sorts of state actors, megacorporations, politicians, and anyone else with clout or ambition will be shaping the discourse here as needed. Turn up your critical thinking skills a notch.

They don't have a focus, do they?

[Anonymous Coward]

They are doing so many things at once, with activities ranging from countering Islamic extremism to online scam and everything in between

No wonder they can't do anything right!!

For example, the Birmingham school district was taken over Islamic extremists and that GCHQ unit did *NOTHING* to stop them

What is the use of having that unit if it can't even do anything right?

Re:They don't have a focus, do they?

[Eunuchswear]

For example, the Birmingham school district was taken over Islamic extremists

Are you an American?

Bank of England and insight on investments

[zedaroca]

From the second document, talking about their costumers and objectives:

Continue provision of intelligence relating to risks to UK investment overseas

Both US and UK "surprisingly" boycotted an auction for the right to explore huge oil reserves in Brazil a few months after Dilma complained about the spying on Brazilians, herself and on Petrobras (the top deep sea oil exploration company in the world), driving the prices down.
Right now Petrobras is under investigation for corruption of some of its leaders, mostly related to the federal government party, it's stocks went down by a lot and most of the infrastructure investments / constructions are blocked. This is the only news here and we'll get American help on the investigations, even though we just refused German help on the Siemens case (the corrupts on that case are on the opposition party). Some people on the opposition party are involved in this Petrobras case as well, but the prosecutors decided there was no reason to investigate them. Seems like they jumped out at the right time and then, after decades of corruption (according to the case witnesses), it started falling down.

I hope people stop talking like economic espionage is a Chinese only thing.

Re:Bank of England and insight on investments

[thrich81]

So what I get from your post is that through some sort of intelligence/espionage the US and UK investors avoided getting pulled into some money losing scam involving corrupt Petrobras and Brazilian officials. Sounds like due diligence to me, not economic espionage.

Re:Bank of England and insight on investments

[Anonymous Coward]

... Petrobras ...

My first thought was not deciphering the abbreviation but 'The Simpsons' in Brazil (where everyone speaks English), watching television: "Clockwise ... counter-clockwise" - Big breasted children's television host.

Re:Bank of England and insight on investments

[zedaroca]

I guess you didn't pay attention to the order of the events or what the events were. Collusion is not a losing scam, the involved parties usually win a lot, they have been winning for decades. It is strange that they didn't enter the bidding process of some of the largest oil reserves found so far, there was no investigation at the time.

Maybe you are right and it is just a coincidence that Petrobras (an oil company from a pacific country) was an espionage target, in which case the spying was really unexplained and for nothing.

Now, in a completely unrelated case, the document on the article says that the British spy agency does provide "intelligence relating to risks to UK investment overseas", does that sound like economic espionage?

The Propaganda Burqa

[Anonymous Coward]

pushing veiled propaganda onto social networks

Does that mean lots and lots of pictures of the Queen in a revealing burqa? Or do they mostly post pictures of Putin in a burqa? Two peas in a pod, those spies and the spies.

All part of

[Anonymous Coward]

... the drug trade, online fraud, and financial scams ...

This was all started for President Bush as part of the international war on terror. The rise of ISIS has excused spying on children. Which is strange since most converts are self-radicalized. Everyone calls such converts, disaffected youth, which is probably true, but I notice no politician is demanding better education and support services for at-risk teenagers: That's not part of the 'war-plan' in any country.

Nothing exceptional?

[Anonymous Coward]

Russians didn't invent troll factories. They were here in different forms for a long time. Mass media is probably the biggest one. Biggest state controlled troll groups are probably Chinese, Russians, and Israelis (including pro-Israel US citizens). So what, someone found a small group in GB?

PS: Even some companies have trolls in HR department who make anonymous posts (from happy employees) on glassdoor to improve company's image.

Since when?

[Pete (big-pete)]

The OP states that GCHQ is, "purported by officials to be focused on foreign intelligence and counterterrorism". Since when?

My understanding has always been that there are 3 main "legs" to British Intelligence:

• MI5 for internal security within the country
• SIS (aka MI6) for international security outside the country
• GCHQ for providing communication intelligence and security towards both of the above, and for advice on protecting key national infrastructure (via CESG)

In this context, GCHQ should have always been providing internal communications intelligence for MI5, I'm not sure why this should be news to anyone?

-- Pete.

Re:Since when?

[Coolfish]

Really? REALLY?

No. CSE, NSA, GCHQ, NZ/AUS's agencies, all of 'em have explicit laws preventing them from operating internally. And here you are, saying no no, they've always been allowed to do this. What the hell, Pete, what the hell.

Re:Since when?

[Pete (big-pete)]

No. CSE, NSA, GCHQ, NZ/AUS's agencies, all of 'em have explicit laws preventing them from operating internally.

From the Intelligence Services Act 1994 you will see that GCHQ's powers are quite well defined.

This involves giving advice and assistance "to any other organisation which is determined for the purposes of this section" - which includes MI5 (Security Service) as they are a member of the Intelligence and Security Committee. And the constraints are:

The functions referred to in subsection (1)(a) above shall be exercisable only—

(a)in the interests of national security, with particular reference to the defence and foreign policies of Her Majesty’s Government in the United Kingdom; or

(b)in the interests of the economic well-being of the United Kingdom in relation to the actions or intentions of persons outside the British Islands; or

(c)in support of the prevention or detection of serious crime.

Although their powers to activate a warrant under section 3(2)(c) may not relate to property in the British Islands, that doesn't mean that they cannot work with, and provide assitance to the Security Service (MI5) under section 3(2)(a). Do note that only 3(2)(c) [and 1(2)(c), which is identical except in reference to SIS instead of GCHQ] is excluded for GCHQ to use as justification for a warrant to snoop on property within the UK.

Just because people don't like the idea or that they find it unpalatable, that doesn't make it less true.

-- Pete.

Re:Since when?

[Coolfish]

Congratulations Pete, you're one of those persons who is capable of taking a complicated, confusing law, and twisting it so as to make it look like what these agencies are doing is legal, when they are clearly not. As long as people like you exist, and they always will, it goes to show why we should never trust the government to have these sorts of capabilities.

Snoop on property within the UK .. fucks sakes, you realize we're talking about people here right. Nah, best to call it property and further distance yourself from what this really means.

Shame on you.

Re:Since when?

[Pete (big-pete)]

As long as people like you exist, and they always will, it goes to show why we should never trust the government to have these sorts of capabilities.

Snoop on property within the UK .. fucks sakes, you realize we're talking about people here right. Nah, best to call it property and further distance yourself from what this really means.

Shame on you.

You appear to be mistaking someone who is stating the facts of the situation for someone who agrees with the situation.

Laws should be written simly, cleanly, and transparently, and the security forces of a nation should be working for the greater good of the nation rather than against the native citizens of that nation.

As an aside, I have spent most of my working life working (both as an employee, and as a contractor) with a company that is alleged to have been a direct target of GCHQ.

-- Pete.

Re:Since when?

[AmiMoJo]

There were supposed to be very clear limits on what techniques GCHQ could use inside the UK and against UK citizens. Like most countries, the UK treats foreigners as somewhat less human than its own citizens.

The revelation is that GCHQ breaks the law in the UK on a regular basis, and acts against the interests of UK citizens on a regular basis. The emergency legislation last month that was quietly slipped through was simply to make some of their illegal activities legal.

Re:Since when?

[Anonymous Coward]

They don't. Stop making stupid generalizations. The CSA, NSA, GCHQ and NZ/AUS (as if that was one country) all operate under their own regional laws. There is no global bill of rights.

Re:Since when?

[Anonymous Coward]

Regarding part (c): For legal purposes, is there a list of "serious crimes" somewhere, or is the "serious" nature of a given crime open to interpretation?

And just like that, UK has a GeStaPo....

[gweihir]

Fascinating, how politicians never learn anything from history.

Re:And just like that, UK has a GeStaPo....

[Coolfish]

Of course they've learned from history! If you want to keep power, you need to distract the citizenry. They should be so preoccupied that they can't deal with some nebulous concept of having only the illusion of privacy. High unemployment, stagnant wages, but just enough entertainment to make sure the masses don't get off their couches after a long day. If you want to keep power, you need to know who the subversives are, because if they ever do get into a position of being able to do something, you want to have enough dirt on them to shut them down before things get out of hand. Or, more likely, have enough powerful media voices repeating the mantra that everything is okay, to drown out the voices that are pointing out what's actually wrong.

They saw how it failed in East Germany, in the old countries, where force accompanied the spying. Now they know that they need to cover their asses - pass laws that vaguely sound like they allow what you're doing. Have secret courts that are "independent" that rubber stamp whatever you want. Parallel engineering for cases where the information was gleaned illegally. I don't think these systems fell apart because of their secret police tactics, but rather a culmination of other various factors - economics, and seeing how things operated outside of their ridiculous bubble. So the Americans, Canadians, etc, made their bubble that much larger, so that they can say "Everyone else is doing this as well, quit complaining".

To be fair - this isn't the politicians per se - but rather the establishment, the bureaucracy. The politicians buy their lines about public safety and security hook line and sinker, and why not, they were paid for by the powerful, who want to ensure that they'll maintain the status quo. A small subset of the population will buy whatever it is their politician is selling, and it's just enough to give them a glean of credibility and legitimacy.

No, the only people who haven't learned from history are the citizens. The citizens who keep thinking that professional politicians are capable of fixing anything, of accomplishing anything, despite leading *democracies* into unjust wars time and time and time and time and time again. That politicians are capable of getting a handle on the bureaucracy, to prevent corruption and incompetence. Hah. To be clear - I'm not advocating we go to anarchy and get rid of government. No, we need democracy and even a *representative* democracy, but the representation has to be fair and equitable - it can't lean way out of proportion to represent the rich and powerful, which is what most every democracy has right now, because elections are such an easy thing to subvert. A democracy must be completely open and transparent, otherwise corruption and incompetence, hand in hand with secrecy, grows and spreads like a cancer. Until more people realize this, and decide to do something about it, things won't get any better.

Re:And just like that, UK has a GeStaPo....

[cardpuncher]

The only thing about this that's new is the scale - modern technology has simply enabled surveillance that would not have been feasible a decade ago.

And as you say, it doesn't flow from politicians, per se. You only have to look at the unproven, but plausible reports of the security services pursuit of Prime Minister Harold Wilson to realise that elected politicians too may be the target if they are suspected by the establishment of deviating too far from the status quo.

Re:And just like that, UK has a GeStaPo....

[gweihir]

Unfortunately, you are right. Fascism is raising its ugly head all over this planet again. Until stopped, the cost will be extreme. We now also know that democracy seems incapable of stopping it (big surprise: Hitler was _voted_ into office....). I wonder whether Humanity will raise again from the coming dark age or whether we are slowly entering the end-game.

Re:And just like that, UK has a GeStaPo....

[gweihir]

Indeed. An that is the real threat: Everybody has something to hide and has done things they rather would not have public knowledge. Collect data on everybody and you can easily make sure any political candidate does not get voted into office, etc. All the secret agencies are preparing to take over the world. As these organizations have no ethics at all, this will make the Dark Ages look like paradise.

While I did not believe it for a long time, it seems most of the dystopian predictions for the information age are actually quite right. The root-causes are the usual ones: Authoritarian scum (both leader and followers), greed, fear, intolerance. It seems humanity has indeed learned absolutely nothing from history.

Re:And just like that, UK has a GeStaPo....

[Anonymous Coward]

If the problems we face today are to ever be resolved people need to stop with the inflammatory rhetoric. Fascism is a buzzword that automatically brings up immediate comparisons to the Nazi government even though Fascism first showed up in Italy after WW1. Anyone comparing the US, or any of the liberal democracies around the world today, to Nazi Germany needs to pick up a history book or at least watch one of the hundreds of documentaries about that time period. I have found that military histories tend to offer a very good source of information. Military histories that focus on the tactics and battlefield actions. Military histories that get used by militarizes around the world. No political BS or tomes written by authors who let their biases slant their views.

Honey Traps

[tehcyder]

I think I need "discrediting." Where do I sign up?

What I wrote's nonsense dave420?

[Anonymous Coward]

"I just reply to you when I see you spamming Slashdot with your nonsense"- by dave420 (699308) on Friday June 19, 2015 @10:31AM (#49945047)

Why'd you agree w/ my points on hosts then? Quoting you on it next:

"I'm not denying all those things" - by dave420 (699308) on Wednesday September 17, 2014 @11:39AM (#47927435) FROM -> http://yro.slashdot.org/commen...

Of course you're not: It's impossible to dispute FACT on HOSTS FILES superiority to other methods!

(Since they're fact in favor of hosts doing more than so-called competitors & doing more with less for more security, speed, reliability, + anonymity online - which is, of course, more than a mere trolling stalking harassing "ne'er-do-well" like yourself could *EVER* manage).

---

"I'm simply pointing out that it takes an AdBlocker to block your spamming"- by dave420 (699308) on Friday June 19, 2015 @10:31AM (#49945047)

Then WHY DON'T YOU DO THAT, shithead? Answer that!

(You stalk/harass me instead!)

If you're "so-called 'better solutions'" are BETTER, & I bother you? Use them... OBVIOUSLY, asshole, you don't & you're just a "ne'er-do-well" troll, OR you have "other motivations" (see next):

* DO YOU WORK FOR AN ADVERTISING FIRM, or ARE YOU A WEBMASTER/WEBCODER, or ARE YOU A MALWARE MAKER, or ARE YOU AFFILIATED WITH 1 OF MY COMPETITORS?

Answer that too!

I'll be waiting (but you'll avoid every question, or lie - which only makes you look stupider than ever vs. myself)

(You must be involved with 1 of those above, especially since you're TOO STUPID to EVER "get the best of me" & you know it, witness the above - & their "so-called 'solutions' are INFERIOR TO MINE on TONS of levels, evidencing their stupidity in & of itself via inferior designwork!)

APK

P.S.=> SEE Dave420 SQUIRM everybody, lol - evasions galore from him to ensue are almost guaranteed... apk

What I wrote's nonsense dave420?

[Anonymous Coward]

"I just reply to you when I see you spamming Slashdot with your nonsense"- by dave420 (699308) on Friday June 19, 2015 @10:31AM (#49945047)

Why'd you agree w/ my points on hosts then? Quoting you on it next:

"I'm not denying all those things" - by dave420 (699308) on Wednesday September 17, 2014 @11:39AM (#47927435) FROM -> http://yro.slashdot.org/commen...

Of course you're not: It's impossible to dispute FACT on HOSTS FILES superiority to other methods!

(Since they're fact in favor of hosts doing more than so-called competitors & doing more with less for more security, speed, reliability, + anonymity online - which is, of course, more than a mere trolling stalking harassing "ne'er-do-well" like yourself could *EVER* manage).

---

"I'm simply pointing out that it takes an AdBlocker to block your spamming"- by dave420 (699308) on Friday June 19, 2015 @10:31AM (#49945047)

Then WHY DON'T YOU DO THAT, shithead? Answer that!

(You stalk/harass me instead!)

If you're "so-called 'better solutions'" are BETTER, & I bother you? Use them... OBVIOUSLY, asshole, you don't & you're just a "ne'er-do-well" troll, OR you have "other motivations" (see next):

* DO YOU WORK FOR AN ADVERTISING FIRM, or ARE YOU A WEBMASTER/WEBCODER, or ARE YOU A MALWARE MAKER, or ARE YOU AFFILIATED WITH 1 OF MY COMPETITORS?

Answer that too!

I'll be waiting (but you'll avoid every question, or lie - which only makes you look stupider than ever vs. myself)

(You must be involved with 1 of those above, especially since you're TOO STUPID to EVER "get the best of me" & you know it, witness the above - & their "so-called 'solutions' are INFERIOR TO MINE on TONS of levels, evidencing their stupidity in & of itself via inferior designwork!)

APK

P.S.=> SEE Dave420 SQUIRM everybody, lol - evasions galore from him to ensue are almost guaranteed... apk

Yes, actually. You fucking asshole.

[gladius17]

Late night visits by the local PD or shifty government employees "suggesting" you stand down?

Yes indeed. During the 2012 "election" season I wrote an email to some GOP fuckwit telling him what a moron he was. Some short, fat cunt from the FBI showed up at my door flashing her badge and asking me why I was "threatening" people online. I told her I hadn't threatened anyone, and that I had nothing further to say to her, and closed the door.

A week later, the nearby university police (note: NOT the police from the city I was living in, who knew me) showed up at my door with a search warrant, to look for a "stolen iPhone" which had supposedly been taken from the university gym, a place I hadn't been anywhere near in over a year. Indeed, I hadn't really been anywhere at all, since I was living as a hermit and spending long hours writing computer software in my home, minding my own business.

Which is the conclusion the cops inevitably came to as well, after finding nothing more than old computers and boxes of uniforms and military gear from my years of "service." (To Satan, who rules over this evil nation.) Not even a damn TV, let alone stolen electronics.

I'm not interested in hearing any of the alternative interpretations and inevitable excuses your brainwashed and mind fucked ilk always offer to "explain" how everything I've just told you is actually wrong, and that I'm really a bad guy who brought this on myself. No I didn't, you fucking asshole. This happened because we are living in a wicked, corrupt system, that is in fact much, much worse than the God damned Nazis ever thought about being. And you're a bastard for making excuses for them.

It's a lucky thing I didn't own any iPhone, and it's a damn lucky thing these particular cops were decent people, cause I might have been fucked over completely and put through the "legal" system meat grinder, instead of simply having my dignity and privacy violated, with complete strangers rifling through every inch of my shit before leaving in embarrassment themselves. Oh yeah, and if they'd gone out into the shop and found my weed garden then I really would have been fucked. But they didn't. Because they were decent people, thank God.

There's your enlightenment. Now go fuck yourself with a sword, asshole.

You're a worthless slave. Die in a fire.

[gladius17]

And, pray tell, what does protesting actually *do*? By your own admission all your protests amounted to nothing. You failed. Those who wanted the war succeeded.

It's not over til it's over, fuckwit.

Finding out there were no WMD in Iraq in no way vindicates you, because those who wanted the war didn't care about the WMD, they cared about the result which was invading Iraq. And they reached their objective. You did not.

Why do you keep speaking in the past tense, like history is completely over with and written?

The Nazis succeeded in placing themselves into power, too. They succeeded in a lot of things. And then what happened?

They're still in place, ruling and making money, and you are where? And now tell me I should have a reason to go and join your useless "protests". For what? Nothing?

Nobody is telling you anything. You have been written off as the piece of shit you are, by every decent person. Anything the GP posted was the benefit of intelligent and decent people, who are unlike you in every way .

The satisfaction of "having been on the right side"? Thanks but no, thanks.

Translation: you're an immoral piece of shit.

I have a family to feed, including two kids born after 9/11. They will grow up knowing nothing else beside the Surveillance Society. They won't miss anything, if there's anything to be missed.

The system that you so idiotically believe is going to be around forever and ever and ever (kinda like the Nazis 1000 year reich, right?) has few enough years left in it that one can count them on approximately one hand.

Your children will in fact grow up being taught to believe that everything you believed was a lie, and completely fucking idiocy to boot. They will despise you and everything you "stood" for...which was nothing, except petty self-interest. You are a despicable piece of shit, according to God, and according to future historians.

This is even assuming your children survive the coming world war, of course...which is doubtful.

You ivory-tower kids should get into those precious skulls of yours that we real people have real issues to care about, like mortgages and bills to pay to care about that highfalutin' crap you get all sweaty about.

I'm a redneck from the hills of Alabama who has been oppressed by this God damned system all his life, and will stand for it no longer. You stupid fuck. Furthermore, we live in a world that is sick to death of the typical American's insane bullshit. You and your fellow fuckwits are about to be bombed into radioactive ash. When your fucking house burns down around your ears, how does that change your calculus, asswipe?

We can't afford to end up in some watchlist. I've seen people singled out and either having promotions denied or being dismissed right away after they got called to the police station once too many to explain why they had been seen in some protest where "people known to the authorities" were present and if they were absolutely sure they didn't know them. Yeah, ok, it's a police state? So what? I can't do anything about it and neither can you, mister

Bottom line is you are a cowardly, worthless slave, who has no business at all living in a free country. You are a piece of shit and an affront to everything this country once stood for.

Die slowly in a fire.

Re:You're a worthless slave. Die in a fire.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not over til it's over, fuckwit.

It's over. The war has been waged. They had what they wanted. You did not. Admit defeat, sore loser.

Why do you keep speaking in the past tense, like history is completely over with and written?

The Nazis succeeded in placing themselves into power, too. They succeeded in a lot of things. And then what happened?

The Nazis tangled with more powerful people - the USSR and the US. Now what? The people who are now in power ARE the MOST POWERFUL PEOPLE. NOBODY is on your side. *NOBODY*.

Nobody is telling you anything. You have been written off as the piece of shit you are, by every decent person. Anything the GP posted was the benefit of intelligent and decent people, who are unlike you in every way .

LOL. I laugh in your face. Your impotent rants amuse me.

Translation: you're an immoral piece of shit.

Correction: I'm a *pragmatic* piece of shit. While you're a naive and childish piece of shit.

The system that you so idiotically believe is going to be around forever and ever and ever (kinda like the Nazis 1000 year reich, right?) has few enough years left in it that one can count them on approximately one hand.

Your children will in fact grow up being taught to believe that everything you believed was a lie, and completely fucking idiocy to boot. They will despise you and everything you "stood" for...which was nothing, except petty self-interest. You are a despicable piece of shit, according to God, and according to future historians.

This is even assuming your children survive the coming world war, of course...which is doubtful.

Yawn. Wake me up when the revolution comes. Any moment now. Any moment noooow... Oh, it didn't happen. Exactly. The status quo will last enough to see the end of my lifetime and probably one more generation, to be replaced by an evolution of itself. There won't be any revolution. Ah, and God does not exist, and those future historians aren't even born yet so why should I care about what they will write when I'm gone? You're making a fool of yourself. :)

I'm a redneck from the hills of Alabama who has been oppressed by this God damned system all his life, and will stand for it no longer. You stupid fuck. Furthermore, we live in a world that is sick to death of the typical American's insane bullshit. You and your fellow fuckwits are about to be bombed into radioactive ash. When your fucking house burns down around your ears, how does that change your calculus, asswipe?

Me and my fellow fuckwits will die of massive heart attack way before we're turned into radioactive dust. And should it ever happen, you and your own fellow fuckwits will end up the same way. I worry about dangers and threats I can manage, I don't prepare for the nuclear zombie apocalypse of the forever satanic doom, bubba.

Bottom line is you are a cowardly, worthless slave, who has no business at all living in a free country. You are a piece of shit and an affront to everything this country once stood for.

Die slowly in a fire.

I live in the country I'm OK with living in and I don't have to ask your permission, or the permission of long dead guys who yakked about "freedom" even while owning slaves. This country is but one among many, and there's no place to run to. I may die slowly in a fire but you will die heartbroken and stark raving mad, wringing your hands about the "injustice of the world". But more probably I will die in a nice retirement home while you'll have been long dead in a gutter. :)

Backwards indeed

[gladius17]

"That's why Europeans"

Europeans, as individual people, and as a whole? Or "Europeans" meaning the corrupt and wicked leadership of certain countries?

"Uhh, something is backwards about this..."

Yes, it's definitely backwards to allow the Nazi regime to turn one's country into a battleground.

You are quite simply a moron

[gladius17]

You're not being censored and it's not that people necessarily disagree with you, but this type of alarmism is simply unconstructive.

Alarmism? Since when is telling the truth considered "alarmism"?

Oh yeah....since your ilk took over this formerly great nation and dragged it into the ground with your never-ending desire to never ever hear the truth about anything.

Identify the specific problems you find in society and work toward a positive change

Let me guess--by voting, right?

Voting does not work.Wake up. This system is too corrupt to be saved. This was recognized in the 1880s by the Jehovah's Witnesses. If you're so God damned smart, why are you still not 'getting it' in 2015?

or just sit back and ride it out, but don't stall out in the middle just getting all pissed off, it achieves nothing.

You have no clue what you're talking about. Read a history book some time.