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Ask Slashdot: Is C++ the Right Tool For This Project?
ranton writes: I am about to start a personal project which I believe should be done in C/C++. The main reasons I have for this are the needs to manage memory usage and disk access at a very granular level and a desire to be cross-platform. Performance is also important but I am unlikely to spend enough time optimizing to be much faster than core libraries of higher level languages.
On the other hand, network access is also a critical part of the project and I am worried about the effort it takes to make cross platform code for both network and disk access. I have been working in the Java / C# world for the past decade and things like TCP/IP and SSL have just been done for me by core libraries. Do libraries like Boost or Asio do a good job of abstracting these aspects away? Or are there other options for doing granular memory and disk management with more high level languages that have better cross-platform library support? I am willing to brush up on my C/C++ skills if necessary but want to spend as much time as possible developing the unique and potentially innovative parts of my project. Thanks for any advice you can provide.
On the other hand, network access is also a critical part of the project and I am worried about the effort it takes to make cross platform code for both network and disk access. I have been working in the Java / C# world for the past decade and things like TCP/IP and SSL have just been done for me by core libraries. Do libraries like Boost or Asio do a good job of abstracting these aspects away? Or are there other options for doing granular memory and disk management with more high level languages that have better cross-platform library support? I am willing to brush up on my C/C++ skills if necessary but want to spend as much time as possible developing the unique and potentially innovative parts of my project. Thanks for any advice you can provide.
consider using python with py2exe, psutil and mmap. you may find what you are looking for !
I would recommend using Qt for a cross platform framework. I haven't tried every C++ framework, but of the ones I have tried, Qt is by far the best.
Decide whether your project is to be done in C or C++. Choose one and embrace it.
There's an illusion that because these two languages share a common origin that they're somehow the same, bundled together as "C/C++". Especially since C code can often be valid in a C++ compiler.
In reality, the good programming styles in each of these two languages differ substantially. Start wedging bits of C code inside a C++ program and you'll soon find yourself fighting the language and core libraries. Likewise, the conventions for core concepts like objects and linked lists in C are somewhat different to C++ and with their own strengths. Both are powerful languages for large projects, but not the same language.
Then C++ is almost certainly not the language for you, unless it is a pure learning experience.
Really.. C++ is a relatively high commitment language, and performance is one of its mainstays, however you dont feel you will spend much time optimising it?
If you cannot look quite quickly over the descriptions of Boost/ASIO and see what they do (and dont) bring to the table, then you will be fighting a very
uphill battle.
The reference to TCP/IP being 'done for you' is worrying.. do you think people program raw TCP in C++?
If you value your project at all then I would suggest C++ is not sounding like your solution.. especially if you need cross
platform. Your reasons seem almost to be reasons NOT to use an unfamiliar language.
As almost everything else has equal or better cross platform support, it seems to me like you need to look more closely to what you mean/need by
'granularity' and perhaps change your mentality using familiar languages, and the solutions for problems in those areas.
You said nothing useful about your project
C++ could be a good choice for all the things you've mentioned. Networking is not an issue, as there are many open source libraries (e.g. libcurl - http://curl.haxx.se/), and using Boost is often a good thing anyway. Also, there are at least two good memory allocators: tmalloc (http://goog-perftools.sourceforge.net/doc/tcmalloc.html) and jemalloc (http://www.canonware.com/jemalloc/) so you may not need to write your own. (I assume that the above open source licenses are good for you, but they are just examples...)
However... I doubt that your project will be only Network + Memory + Disk. What else do you need? Some UI? Should it interact with the Web? Or with services in the Cloud? There's no easy answer to your question without knowing what else you need, and I wouldn't even exclude a hybrid-language approach (e.g. C++ / Python / JavaScript*).
* Before someone starts ranting about JavaScript having to run in a browser: NO - JavaScript runs perfectly fine withouth a browser, and can easily interact with C++. Have a look at V8 or SpiderMonkey, just to name some JavaScript engines.
Can you hear it, my son? This is the voice of ignorance.
It is possible to use C++ with Java. Try to look at Java Native Interface (JNI). It comes with a performance penalty on each call across the interface, but if you are using it for networking, the penalty will be negligible.
If you are working on Windows, it is possible to do the same with C# using a CLI interface wrapper. I have no idea if that trick works on Linux/Mac.
The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head
I think that using smart pointers and RAII pattern is in all respects better than garbage collection.
I love C++. It will take you a a couple of years to get good at it, but as you say - it's a personal project, and I am guessing you've had enough of Java.
However, if you are doing any sort of front end GUI for it, then don't go there. Stay with Java. There is no unified FE GUI for C++ which I could recommend.
Likewise, many of the suggestions above seem to have not read that you already know Java.
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The main reasons I have for this are the needs to manage memory usage and disk access at a very granular level
And why, exactly, do you imagine you need these things?
(You may well do - but you don't give a reason for it, so it's entirely possible that you don't need to manage those things on a granular level)
Not everything that can be measured matters; Not everything that matters can be measured.
C++ is often unreadable
That's not a problem with the language, it's a problem with whoever wrote the code.
I've been writing software for about 40 years - and one of the things I've observed in that time is that it's possible to write unreadable code in pretty much any language. I've also observed that it's possible to write readable code in pretty much any language.
Not everything that can be measured matters; Not everything that matters can be measured.
If you're better at Java or C#, use that.
Sometimes the right tool for the job is the tool you know best.
If you're not confident at what you know, perhaps the best tool is someone else.
I am about to start a personal project which I believe should be done in C/C++.
I cringe when someone says "C/C++". Sort that out first by choosing one language for your project. Either write lean and clean pure C code, or fully use the proper abstractions of C++ to write memory-safe and easily-maintainable code, but don't make an unprofessional crusty mix of the languages.
That's because you have no clue. The problems of high-performance, incremental garbage collection was already solved in the 80s and it is ridiculous that there are still ignorants like you around who think that reference counting and incongruent OOP design patterns could replace GC.
It has only been solved in theory, not in practice. In practice garbage collection is still garbage if you need high performance, usually because high performance usually implies low memory usage and consistent high performance.
The C++11 specification was explicitly written to permit garbage collection and includes standard library functions for providing hints to a garbage collector.
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Could you describe a project for which the choice of c++ is a good one?
Guess what, you can easily do that:
Oh... good luck!
Lack of garbage collection is one of many reasons why C++ produces fast code. The entire point of using C++ is that you want to have control over how, when and where things are allocated and deallocated.
In practice, single desktop class machines with 6000+ concurrent users are not typical use cases. Instead, high performance applications are likely to look more like 3D rendering engines.
In practice, when you have 16ms to produce a frame, it really matters that the garbage collector doesn't kick in for 2ms once every second, because that'll push you past your frame window and lead to stuttering and dropped frames.
In practice, it really matters that you can structure your code to make sure no allocations are happening during certain critical operations, because an allocation will potentially need a new page, and the kernel barrier and/or hit locks resulting again, in 1-2ms of unexpected delay, and a dropped frame.
In practice, it really matters too that you have enough control over memory layout to guarantee that certain structures are all going to end up in cache at the same time, and that you're not going to be doing a bunch of pointer indirection fetching memory during time critical rendering code.
In practice, modern garbage collection doesn't allow you to solve any of these problems. That is why real time rendering engines are still written in C++, and will continue to be, and why everyone writing them will continue to be glad that C++ is not garbage collected.
Python is written in C. Linux is written in C. OS X is written in C (with libraries in Objective C). Most low level software is written in C, not C++. It's very important for this exercise to differentiate C from C++. They are not the same language and haven't been since C++ stopped being implemented using macros and the preprocessor and got its first compiler.
C is a much simpler language to learn and maintain, especially if you're doing low level code. C++ has a lot of very nice features, but it's benefits really only come into play if you're willing to put the time and effort into properly learning generic programming (the foundation Boost and the STL).
But, as most people have already pointed out, starting with Python and then migrating portions over to C or C++ as needed for performance is a much better approach. You can manage IO just as effectively from Python as you can from C or C++ and your development time will be much much shorter.
-Chris