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Interviews: Ask Steve Jackson About Designing Games
Since starting his own company in 1980, Steve Jackson, founder and editor-in-chief of Steve Jackson Games, has created a number of hits, starting with Car Wars . . . followed shortly by Illuminati, and later by GURPS, the "Generic Universal Roleplaying System." In 1983, he was elected to the Adventure Gaming Hall of Fame - the youngest person ever so honored. He has personally won 11 Origins Awards. In the early 90's, Steve got international press due to the Secret Service's invasion of his office. The EFF helped make it possible for SJ Games to bring suit against the Secret Service and the U.S. government and win more than $50,000 in damages. His Ogre kickstarter a couple of years ago brought in close to a million dollars. His current hits are Munchkin, a very silly card game about killing monsters and taking their stuff, and Zombie Dice, in which you eat brains and try not to get shotgunned. His current projects include a variety of Munchkin follow-ups, and the continuing quest to get his games translated into digital form. Steve has agreed to put down the dice and answer any questions you may have. As usual, ask as many as you'd like, but please, one per post.
And where did you find a willing programmer?
This isn't a question, but thanks for games like Chez Geek.
Discovering games which were goofy, not "me against you", and often won by sheer dumb luck opened a whole new kind of gaming for me.
The game mechanics of a bunch of people playing silly games for the purpose of hanging out and not having winners and losers was far more interesting, inclusive, and fun.
Much more enjoyable as a group game than so many other games with terrible game mechanics.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
The secret service raid always struck me as one the most ridiculous things I ever heard the government doing. It sounds like the kind of plan a conspiracy nut would propose. They raided you because a reporter who wrote about cybercrime also liked you. Do you have any idea what possessed them to do something that incredibly stupid?
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
My son has "like 3000" ideas for new munchkin cards. Any advice for a budding young game designer about getting started/self-publishing/submitting ideas to existing publishers like SJG?
Would you ever consider creating a truly unique car wars video game as a 3D, first person shooter, MMO, RPG?
I've thinking something with the open world and economy of Eve, but with the same kind of game play as GTA5, in a persistant MMO world, but using cars and trucks, in a post-apocalyptic world, where the players can live out their Max Mad fantasies, but still have to deal with the complexities of designing and building their cars with the flexibility that that board game had.
I've been waiting my entire life since childhood to see a truly epic car wars game, and have been continuously disappointed. Only the original apple game inspired me, but with today's tech, I think it's now achievable.
Are you any relation to Peter Jackson?
When I was young, I played games from SJG, TSR, Palladium, R. Talsorian, ICE, FASA, and a bunch of one-off studios I can't remember now. Some of the systems worked really well, some required some tweaking, and others were essentially unplayable. But it was easy to see links between systems. Despite the occasional legal threats, there seemed to be a lot of borrowing each other's ideas. Palladium clearly was influenced by TSR (and I think they've admitted that the first version of their rules was essentially heavily modified D&D rules), and R. Talsorian's old D10/D6-based system seemed to have some influences from FASA.
When you're designing a game, what external influences help shape the game? How far can you adopt someone else's ideas before you have to start worrying about lawyers getting involved, and has that changed as the pen & paper RPG has waned in popularity?
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
While cleaning out my closet a few weeks ago, I came across a stack of Metagaming micro games. I played these with friends from high school over thirty years ago, and we really loved them (they actually got more playtime in our gaming group than some of the larger Avalon Hill titles of the time). While the well-known Ogre and GEV were in there, I still have some old lesser known titles like WarpWar, Invasion of the Air Eaters, Sticks and Stones, and Holy War.
Have you considered re-releasing some of the better titles from the old Metagaming catalog?
"Can't you see that everyone is buying station wagons?"
If I have an old school RPG system that is a good system, and has several adventures, what is the best way to publish it? I play tested it through several years in highschool, and its a very fun system, but I have no idea how to publish an old school pencil and paper and make even a single literal dime.
God spoke to me
As visible in your official company FAQ, you had run a ISP as well as other online services (I seem to recall there having been some manner of MOO/MUSH service for running online games), well in advance of most other RPG publishers. Furthermore, you run your own digital store (e23) rather than using through the DriveThruStuff platform used by the rest of the tabletop industry, and made PDF copies of your books available for purchase before the other "major" industry players (Fantasy Flight, Pinnacle, WhiteWolf, and WotC).
How much of this decision was strategic—based on a firm belief this was "The Way of the Future"—and how much was it exploratory / risk-taking? In hindsight, what decisions for your online presence would you have made differently?
Do you like Japanese imports?
I was planning on writing something about the indie game scene, but changed it to something more relevant to Steve's experience. If I could rewrite the title, I'd say,"How do you publish a P&P RPG system?"
God spoke to me
As someone who worked on some Steve Jackson Games GURPS products (through a 3rd party partner with your company), I distinctly remember the cries of terror and horror surrounding the launch of e23. These days I wish I'd saved the emails, but they went as far as saying that e23 was going to "doom the entire pen and paper RPG industry" due to readily available PDFs of books.
Obviously, these doomsayers were wrong; in fact, e23 was at the forefront of making books available in electronic format, so that they were easily carried on a (then) laptop or (now) tablet, searchable, and free to provide from the publisher. Shops like DriveThruRPG probably wouldn't be as stable or mature without the trail blazed by e23.
My question is this, then: Are you happy with how e23 turned out? If you could do anything differently, what would you do?
(And as a corollary, I find it ridiculous and somewhat offensive that some *other* game companies cling to deadtree like it's floatsam in a river.)
Why does the industry seem to be turning it's back on those of us that like immersive games that I play *by myself*? I'm not interested at all in joining millions of players worldwide in any game, sorry.
Similar to the Car Wars question above, I've wondered if a multiplayer OGRE sim has ever been considered. First person combat where every gun is firing nukes... I mean, come on! Who wouldn't want that?
Don't just stand there, get that other dog!
My boys and I love playing Munchkin. Recently, my oldest got Munchkin Adventure Time. Being big fans of both, we loved playing it. This led me to wonder: Assuming you could get licensing for any ONE franchise (e.g. Star Wars, BTTF, LOTR, Harry Potter, etc), which would you make into a Munchkin game?
My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
It may seem like a trivial thing, but the games I come back to the most are ones where I can tell what time it is in the real world. Whether it's Civilization on the computer, or certain versions of solitaire on iOS, since I'm often occupying a little time waiting until something else happens, being able to see what time it is is really important to me. Why does the industry seem so intent on keeping me from being able to see the menu/status bar or the time?
I saw you win Munchkin on Tabletop. It seemed pretty coincidental that you missed a tie by one lousy point. Does inventing a game give you an advantage in playing it?
As an aside, Scorpion Swamp was my gateway drug. Thank you so much for a lifetime of gaming enjoyment.
I unfortunately missed out on the OGRE Kickstarter back when it happened, but have since been able to locate a copy of the designers edition, which I LOVE playing. I know at one point there was some mention that the popularity of Pocket Ogre as a result of the kickstarter campaign led you and your team to exploring the possibility of releasing Pocket G.E.V. as well! I haven't seen any updates about it since then, so I was wondering if this was still something you were considering? I know that I for one would be interested in this.
As an aside, I managed to find a pocket-box copy of G.E.V. at a flea market yesterday and I was so excited to take it home and play. Thank you for making some incredibly awesome games.
Autoduel on the Apple IIe was my gateway in to a lifetime of joyous experiences involving a number of geeky board games and models. First was Car Wars, followed by Battletech, Warhammer 40K, and so on. I've always loved Car Wars, but it really feels like the complex physics and movement mechanics in the game can best be simulated via the computer. Have you had any success getting modern video game companies interested in doing a new version? PS. Had the honor of meeting you at a convention about 10 years ago, it was a real treat, nice to find out that some of your heroes are pretty decent folks in real life.
Wow, out of sheer mad coincidence I happened to be chatting with Steve in the old Metaverse MOO when the check was delivered. (Don't in any way recall why, he wouldn't know me from Adam despite having a friend in common.) Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.
My only question is why there has never been a good computer version of Car Wars.
You're just jealous 'cuz the voices talk to *me*
Have you ever considered officially rebalancing|changing the GURPs mechanics that rely on 3d6 rolls? It has been my experience over the years, when trying to use the GURPs ruleset directly (with no house-rules) that the way the skills/stats interact - at least as far as nearly automatic success is concerned... is quite broken (easily) for non-super players with attributes 14-15+. Compare to say, HERO, which doesn't have an automatic-success problem so much as an overly obtuse|complex modifier issue.
And not just story time? When I used to gm I always had a hard time incorporation actual play mechanics into my sessions and caught myself just telling a story...
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
What elements do computer game design and tabletop design have in common?
I've enjoyed Steve Jackson Games for years. I have Zombie Dice, Illuminati and Munchkin and have enjoyed Ogre and Car Wars in table top and computer form. I've played GURPS as well. That is a diverse bunch of games from one company.
What is your game design process like?
Loved it
Steve, thanks for many enjoyable hours spent gaming and reading your company's books about gaming. I wish I could ask you how to make more hours so that I could still play today!
I have read that at one time you had cryonics arrangements with Alcor Life Extension foundation. Is that still true today? Are you optimistic about your chances? Do you recommend other people follow suit?
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
Met Steve in person, of course. Nice guy, but quiet. And his brother Ken Jackson was the owner/boss/ mgt. of note.
IO had less than 5,000 customers, less than 20 staff, and brought in about a million in revenues per year. Here's a snapshot of the ISP's web v1.0 era website:
http://fondoo.net/~io
Anyone wanna slashdot me? Would be an honor! LOL
I'm a 50 year old old school gamer.
I've met you several times over the years, but you almost certainly don't remember me, including playing xbugs with you at a small game convention in Bellevue. and years ago in Austin. Long time GURPS fan, long time games fan.
You have a game called "Awful green things from outer space" that I loved as a teen. I've been thinking about it off and on for years, and figured out how to upgrade it into a slightly different game while using the same basic look and feel and mostly similar game mechanics..
How does one go about doing that? Do I just ask permission? Pay a licensing fee? or just make the game so different it doesn't resemble the original at all (which is least preferred) I'd rather just make a prototype,, give it to you and _maybe_ make a little money off it. To tell the truth, I'm not particularly greedy, and I could whip out the rules and basics over the weekend, The hard part is what YOU do... making all the bits, marketing, packaging, and distributing. All I'd contribute is the upgrade idea.
You probably get people all the time with stars in their eyes not understanding the business side of things.who get weird and upset and think the idea is the only work that goes into all this. Me, I just want to give you the idea and see it on a shelf at some point.(I wouldn't turn money down, mind you, it's just not my focus)
Is a re-issue of Triplanetary still under consideration?
Steve, I read that you consider yourself a "small-l libertarian." These days a lot of libertarians have come to oppose copyright law, or else favor severe reforms for it. As a publisher, game designer, and libertarian, how do you feel about the subject, and do you feel that these various roles are in tension with each other?
On a related note, in junior high school I bought GURPS Cyberpunk from a friend, only to later find out that that friend had shoplifted it from a bookstore. I've always regretted that. Do I owe you guys some money?
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
When performing the nebulous task of "game design", what comes first; plot/story elements, or game mechanics?
Do you try to tell a story through a game and design mechanics accordingly, or do the games mechanics come first, and the story brings together the finished product?
Do you think that if having one icon partially obscuring text is good then three is better?
(if you are the person who designed this site, just read the title. It'll probably take you all day anyway)
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Firstly I'd like to thank you for the Illuminati game, which has shaped my view of the world. Also, thank you for publishing your edition of the Principia Discordia.
In your foreword to the Principia, you quote the passage that spoke to you, about Creativity holding in it a component of Chaos as well as one of Order; or, as I see it, in AD&D terms, Chaotic as well as Lawful Good; or, of Mutation as well as Selection as the pillars of Evolution. These kinds of dialectical dimensions can be readily seen to correspond to the I Ching and similar systems; also, the game of Illuminati itself has a developed system of alignments.
Now, the question shall be, can you give a hint for the next generation of game designers to follow, to design as enlightening games as possible, that encode wisdom while being fun?
I am a game designer myself (sounds corny but hey, I design my own game so I must be a game designer, right? right?), I found that there's a certain limitation for game design tools. I am not talking about game engines here, nor art creation software, which the world has seen plenty, but dedicated software which help you transform your ideas into structured documentation.
I'm currently using FreeMind to describe and detail all aspects of my game, and work directly with a MySQL database to lay out (architect) data holding and manipulation parts (tables, scripts, etc). But FreeMind starts showing its limits (very difficult to build a skill forest in it) and MySQL, albeit capable, lacks certain features (e.g. versioning tree).
My question is: which software tools would you recommend for laying out the foundation of the game, from the main idea to game mechanics, formulas, skill trees, level advancement, etc., including but not limited to presentations and BRDs, in case I decide to sell my design to a company which has the resources to produce the game itself?
...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
Bruce Sterling's the Hacker Crackdown seems to indicate or imply that the reason for the Secret Service's raid on your business was that a hacker under investigation was also a fan of your cyberpunk role playing game. The agents involved didn't have a clear understanding of the line between his notes on actual computer hacking and his notes involving the role playing game. You must have been confused when Federal agents knocked on your door and confiscated the computers from your business. How long did it take you to piece together what had happened, and do you feel like you got adequate compensation for your time and trouble?
When I eat with friends on the weekend, I'll order an omelette with an extra egg, extra veggies, and some nuts to add protein and keep me going through the day. It's almost the size of the entire plate. Since I order it frequently, I decided a while back to give it a name. It comes with basil pesto and looks green, and the name I gave it could be mistaken to refer to a large green character that has risen to animated movie fame recently. Thanks to you, Mr. Jackson, however, I chose the name from an entirely different time and setting.
I call it 'The Ogre'.
All I'd contribute is the upgrade idea.
And the playtesting, right?
In Car Wars it was impossible to kill yourself with a .45 magnum pistol. (People had 3 HP, 1 damage injured, 2 made the character unconscious. A heavy pistol did 2 damage so shooting yourself with it made you unconscious) Unforeseen bizarre results often appear in game play- what was your favorite?
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
Between your game ideas, implementation, and playtesting, what have you discovered about planning, targeting, or adapting games to various durations (e.g., an hour or shorter to the better part of a day) and between dedicated gatherings with friends to something you could maybe play with someone you randomly meet in a coffeehouse for a while? This is more of an open-ended question; I'd just like to hear about your experience in considering and working through these issues.
I personally was too young to appreciate the social context around your pocket games when I played them, but still enjoyed them a lot -- Ogre, Car Wars, Illuminati, and Awful Green Things from Outer Space, and I'll mention Illuminati again because I enjoyed it so much.
While several individuals and companies (myself included) pitched ideas and prototypes for digital munchkins over the years, only to be met with silence. Are you sure you are looking to digitize the game?
I'm a big fan of board and card games, and will spend four days this week playing all day with friends. But we're unusual. The real money is in video games. Are you transitioning to electronic games, and if so, what have been the stumbling blocks, or what have been the ideas you've taken from board games with you?
I loved playing Car Wars as a kid. I would enjoy a computer version of the game, where the computer would keep track of all the hits and calculations and rules and so on. Turn-based would be fine with me. Perhaps even a campaign. Is there anything in development or already out to bring the glory that is Car Wars to a video game?
I just wanted to say "thanks" for many, many hours playing your games. Well done, sir!
Need Geek Rock? Try The Franchise!
Hey Steve, Steve here. We met at LibertyCon last weekend (I was killed by pterodactyls). Thanks for being so gracious with your time as I "fangirled" all over the place (as my daughter later put it). Lots of questions, but I'll save most of them for next year's con, and just ask this: I've read lots of your "Designer's Notes" for your games over the years (I can actually SEE my complete run of "The Space Gamer" from here), and I was wondering, what part of your design process has changed the most over the years? What's gotten easier, and what's gotten more difficult? Thanks! Diz
Do you plan to expand the franchise on any of your productions by adapting them for phones?
With all the new weird news being outed as actually proven to be true.
Is it time for update packages for all you classic conspiracy games ?
Or has it become truely too weird for an update and need a new game?
Zombies vs Vampires ?
One of my friends has a Super Bowl party that plays Nuclear War after the game every year.
25+ years this year, And the new people to the group allmost always enjoy the game, and look forward to it next year.
I know I did.
Keep up the good work, you are an inspiration to all game creators/players.
This is my opinion based on what little I know and understand of the rumors and lies Thanks, Randal
Is there a chance of some of your games ever being reprinted in the near future? Asking mainly as things like Illuminati Mutual Assured Distraction and SPANC are horrifically expensive and nearly impossible to come by second hand.
What about relaxing a bit the license for GURPS products? I don't know, but from my experience is the better to have the best share of a farm than be the only owner of a single (dead) cow. Imagine you creating a place for people putting their endless GURPS material in your GURPS Portal and doing it all digital so cost are minimal? Everybody would win. Thanks for your system. Tech Tenente from Brazil
It's not sourcery, it's Technology!!!
Not a question so much as a desperate request: Please, oh please, bring back the Warehouse!
Even if you must start from scratch... please bring it back. Servers are cheap as dirt nowadays, you could even spread the visitor load over AWS or something.
It was one of the most addictive, fun sites to read on the 'net ever.
Perhaps you removed it due to liability issues (someone submitted a really great box that you wanted to use in your source books, but couldn't because there was no release form?)
absolutely.
One of the most entertaining websites ever, way before the idea of 'crowdsourcing' was even a concept.
If you have to, start the DB from scratch if there are liability issues (I don't recall a release form to give up rights for submissions to the warehouse, I'd sign it in a heartbeat though).
Does SJG have a canary in case they get raided and stuck with a gag order? I'd hate to think that my latest version of some pdf came with government mandated adobe zero-day malware.
Who is one of you? Is it Fred? I've always suspected Fred.
Of GURPS Cyberpunk or an updated version?
2nd question:
What is Lloyd B. up to ?
PS: If you're not sure about the financing of such a project, use crowfunding, i'd be in for sure.
I remember Awful Green Things From Outer Space fondly. If I remember correctly, it originally appeared in an early edition of Dragon magazine and later as a TSR boxed set (which I bought). We found the awful green things almost always won unless the crew player found a great weapon (e.g., ray gun) early on in the game.
"Can't you see that everyone is buying station wagons?"
I drove a good humor truck with a 360 degree freeze ray and two junk droppers on the rear in Car Wars. I'd drop the junk then make cars slide out of control into it. Thanks for the good times Steve. You inspired games such as Interstate 76 which I still love on retro nights.
Do you have any plans to do anything with your Metaverse trademark?
Are you looking to sell it off, or to bless a public implementation of the Metaverse with the official title?
For the love of Heinlein what must I do to get you to re-release this game????!!!!!!?????
Jackson like the rest should die and go to HELL.
Fucker.
Do you ever get sick of being asked about when the next book's coming out?
(even though you had nearly nothing to do with FF, that was the other Steve Jackson - side question, how did you find that experience, of writing on someone else's game engine? I'd've been a bit weirded out if I was writing for someone with the same name as me...)
Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
I'm a huge fan of your games. It's been a big part of why I got into board games and now I'm looking to publish board games that I've been designing.
What are some best practices that board game designers should follow if they're looking to approach publishers? What's the best way to get in touch? Do you like it when designers try to promote their games (through social media, reddit, etc.) before landing a publisher?
Thanks for all the great games and I look forward to many more in the future!
I've never had the original game, but I acquired various expansion cards over the years. It was sort of a Magic the Gathering with cards written in the style of Robert Anton Wilson, the X Files, and random paranoid conspiracies. Don't let them immanentize the Eschaton!
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Yeah, the secret hacking method turned out to be "roll two 6-side dice, if you get over 10, you break in, under 6 and you're BUSTED."
Can't tell your boss you made that dumb a mistake, so you've got to escalate the charges somehow.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
I think you may be interested in Tom Sloper's 'sloperama' website, with tons of info on game design, marketing, production, management, etc. It's all about what to do and what not to do if you have a game idea. I don't want to put you off, but I think you'll be better off for having read some of those pages.
Which was your favourite Fighting Fantasy book?
Oh arse
We found the awful green things almost always won unless the crew player found a great weapon (e.g., ray gun) early on in the game.
Yeah but that was part of the fun - it was stacked (generally) for the green things. Although the fire extinguisher was potentially the best weapon (it affected a while room at once if I recall rightly).
I loved that game. I could never get anyone interested in it apart from one or two friends, so I would play 'myself' mainly.
That would be a nice 'tablet' game - the AI wouldn't have to be that complex either I think.
Yeah and Car Wars. I played that game for years - we used to have massive sessions with 10 or more of us playing.
Thanks Steve
I've got a game concept and mechanics that I've been working on, but know that I can't provide some of the creative content completing the game would require (such as artwork). What path would you recommend I take - try and source suitable creative assets and attempt to crowd-fund and self-publish, try and sell what I'm able to complete to an established game publisher, or something else?
This Steve Jackson wrote 3 Fighting Fantasy books - #8, #19 & #22...
"There are people who do not love their fellow human being, and I _hate_ people like that!" - Tom Lehrer
Alas, you never have mod points when you need them.
I think I was the one who turned Steve on cryonics. Alcor was raided a few years before SJG and we sued the county under the Electronic Communications Privacy Act over email in the computers they took. Didn't go to a trial because Riverside county knew they would lose and just paid up. When Steve was raided I sent him the legal research and legal papers we had from that case. His lawyers used it, and Steve wanted to know what Alcor did.
My that was a long time ago.
I don't know if there is a game in this, but recently a new solution to energy, carbon and climate has developed. It's mainly based around the Skylon SSTO. Looks like that will get the cost down to where power satellites undercut coal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?... I wonder if Steve or anyone could figure out how to make a game out of this solution?
End MGM. Get prospective parents of boys to Google: Men do complain
I have a hard time seeing why games like Car Wars and some of your other games should have any difficulty going digital. In fact I am wishing for a Car Wars game to play. Not real time action/arcade, but the turn based one where you can use strategy and car build matters. Why haven't you created something like this yet? I guess I figured you were either already working on it, or you had your reasons not to do it.
P.S. I have plans for a turn based car battle game for Android and would love to partner up. If your interested, email me.
-- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
Steve Jackson.
How do you do?
Seems like you're some kind of board game designer.
Hmm.
Let's take a look at board game geek.. Oh look, most of the games published here aren't above 7.
Gee wiz, that's too bad. The self-proclaimed master of board game theory and practice can't tango with Twilight Struggle, Last Will, Mage Knight, or even... 7 Wonders. Yes, I went there.
Oh, slashdot members doubt the references? Look it up for yourself. Steve Jackson games... Every time I play a Steve Jackson game the insipid brand name continues to perpetuate itself. Let's look at a game like... Oh, SPANC for example. Are you even trying? My guess is that you're not trying at all. Just another cynical cash in after another cynical cash in. Here's some homework - make good games. Could the self-proclaimed emperor of board games create something like Through the Ages? I don't think so. I guess Slashdot is now for nerds in name only. Disgraceful.
Thank you so much for that interesting piece of information! It's a shame that question doesn't seem to have gotten rated highly enough for Steve to see it, but I'm fascinated by what you've shared and seeing that there's a connection between the raids on Alcor and SJGames and thus, ultimately, the EFF.
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.