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Can New Chicago Taxes On Netflix, Apple, Spotify Withstand Legal Challenges?
Mr D from 63 writes: Today, a new "cloud tax" takes effect in the city of Chicago, targeting online databases and streaming entertainment services. Residents who stream movies and music from companies like Netflix and Spotify will now need to pay an additional 9% tax. This also applies to Chicago businesses that pay to use databases online. Chicago expects to collect $12 million a year as a result of the new tax ruling. From the 24/7 Wall St. story: "Also worth noting is that the city’s tax ruling in both cases avoids the issue of whether there is a close-enough connection (nexus, in legalese) to require providers like Netflix or others to collect either tax. International law firm ReedSmith weighs in on this point as well: '[O]nce the Department begins to audit and assess customers located within the city, many of those customers are likely to demand that providers collect the tax going forward. As a result, many providers will likely feel the need to register to collect the taxes, despite lacking nexus, and despite having strong arguments against the Department’s expansive interpretation of its taxing ordinances.'"
Chicago and Illinois have to keep finding their free social programs somehow! Da Bears!!!
Legalized theft.
You want what someone else has, and you're willing to steal it at the barrel of a gun.
Fuck you.
As their earnings placed them in the top tax bracket in the United Kingdom, the Beatles were liable to a 95% supertax introduced by Harold Wilson's Labour government (hence the lyrics "There's one for you, nineteen for me").
International law firm ReedSmith weighs in on this point as well: '[O]nce the Department begins to audit and assess customers located within the city, many of those customers are likely to demand that providers collect the tax going forward. As a result, many providers will likely feel the need to register to collect the taxes, despite lacking nexus, and despite having strong arguments against the Department’s expansive interpretation of its taxing ordinances.'"
When the government starts auditing people and dunning for money, their first reaction is going to be, "how do I throw these clowns out of office?", they are not going to make a hue and cry and demand their service providers to collect taxes. These providers are also savvy, they will spend a little on lobbying, fund a few challengers and some incumbents ...
Knowing Chicago it looks more like another shakedown to get some campaign cash than to collect a new tax.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Everything online uses databases..
In case the crime and murder rate wasn't enough.
Does this legitimize the aereo tv service? A far away provider is streaming their traffic to a local subscriber and the city is considering it a valid business by taxing it?
Chicago has chased all of the businesses out since the early 1990s with tax increases. Google "Chicago head tax", it's a real thing. Chicago thinks businesses want to do business in a place that's freezing in the winter, with inadequate transportation routes, and increasing city-related costs/tax. Chicago is a drain on the entire state which is also $65bn in debt.
Good luck Chicago!
All taxes add friction to business, but taxing data in the information age seems extraordinarily stupid and a good reason not to do business in Chicago.
Will the last person to leave Chicago please turn off the lights?
Next question.
IAAL.
Along with my server in said data center. What if my server accesses a taxed service?
That provides free data transmission for your customers. If the proxy service is $0 and they need to connect 9%...well you can do the math.
Netflix has their cdn boxes everywhere. That's a physical presence
But with the loss of cable subscribers, they have to make up the difference.
So, if this applied to something like YouTube, it would amount to a tax on speech, which I'd hope would be unconstitutional...
and get no taxes.
I suppose I could see them complaining if it was a flat 95%, but afaik the UK does Marginal taxes the same as the US, meaning they paid the same taxes as a lorry driver up to certain point.
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It's a 9% tax on entertainment. It's not the bloody Spanish Inquisition or the Gestapo. It's become damn near impossible to raise taxes enough to run a city anymore. The Right Wing have a name for it, Starve the Beast. Thing is a big dog is a beast, and that Beast was the only thing keeping the Robber Barons at bay. Doesn't anyone remember what laissez faire meant for 99% of the population in 1900s?
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Getting a little tired of this. As cities grow, yes more money is needed. I understand this. But as cities and states grow, there are more taxpayers increasing overall income from sales tax, property tax, gas tax and wtf ever tax. I'm expected now to get an AMA liscence(understandable with insurance and such), and then get a permit from the city to fly anything rc controlled. Bunch of crap.
idiots.
you're still living very, very well. Also, these high level marginal tax rates are about the only thing that I've ever seen that solves the problems with income inequality. Specifically how a civilization leans towards oligarchy and stagnation as a smaller and smaller group of people claim all the money for themselves. Wealth builds on wealth, and at least here in America we don't see any end to that. The pie might get bigger, but if my slice gets tinnier ever year it hardly matters...
Put another way, I saw an interview with a multi millionaire complaining she didn't have any political voice anymore because the billionaires money crowded her out...
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This is way off topic, but what the fuck is happening to slashdot. I just now noticed something blaring from my headphones on the floor. Apparently it was some kind of audio ad and for the life of me I didn't know which part of the webpage was playing it.!??!
Then I happen to notice that the 'busy circle' at the top of the chrome tab has been spinning for at least 5minutes. Are you fucking kidding me?
Here are two of them that I noticed. God only knows how many others were busy doing god knows what. (liverail.com and advertising.com) (I wont post actual links)
I can't stand the "slashdot is dying" meme, but I think I am close to moving on to another news aggregate. -Slashdot reader since ~2000AD
let's kill everyone who thought of and voted for this and pretend it never happened
...you folks wanted government to provide everything under the sun.
Now they're going to take everything you have to pay for it.
Oh, and BTW Chicago has been losing population for years. I wonder why?
http://www.chicagotribune.com/...
-Styopa
I was wondering if cable subscriptions would be impacted by this (or were they already hit by the sales tax?). The article states "expanded its amusement tax to include amusements such as TV shows, movies, videos, music and online games, if they are delivered by electronic means to customers in the city". Since most cable subscriptions are digital now it would seem that they should be included in this. It would be weird (though not unexpected for a law to have unforeseen consequences) to have something like HBO not taxed when part of a cable subscription but taxed when streamed through the Internet even when it's basically the same thing.
Although Snopes has repeatedly dismissed the frequently reported Internet Tax scare, this would appear to be an example of someone actually trying it. Considering the wellspring of opposition which occurs with the phony "sky is falling" efforts in the past, I'd expect that this one could meet a similar fate.
This also applies to Chicago businesses that pay to use databases online.
This would be enough to cause the Chicago Mercantile Exchange to relocate to another state. I'm sure that Indiana, Wisconsin, or Michigan would welcome them with open arms.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
and he basically said it wouldn't stop him from making more money. We're talking 5% of _billions_ here after all.
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we need to reign these goverment fucks in. they shouldn't have unlimited power to tax everything in the world. what, the fucking income. property, and sales taxes aren't enough for these subhuman parasites?
it has to do with how a dollar circulates. I'm in pretty bad shape financially. I had 3 close family members get hit with major illnesses all at once. I'm still recovering and I'm not sure I ever will. What I'm saying is I spend just about ever dollar I get my hands on paying debt and buying food/shelter/transportation. There's a little discretionary funds in there for my kid. I try to let her do thing things her friends (who's parents didn't get economically cock punched non stop for 10 years) do.
Now take a Donald Trump. No matter how greedy he is there's only just so much he can buy. At some point his money is just sitting around, doing nothing. He'll invest some of it, lose some of it, etc. But He's only got so much time in the day to do that. Eventually it becomes a war chest laying around doing nothing.
When we take it even further, to the level the Waltons have achieved what we have is pretty much the dark ages. You've got a small group of folks with _all_ the wealth. They're more or less Gods (Divine Right of Kings, anyone?). They stop investing because, heh, why should they? They already have the best civilization has to offer. As a result things can really only get worse for them.
If the above sounds complicated it's because it is. That's what makes cutting the marginal tax rate so seductive. It sound like an easy answer to the world's problems. Supply side economics, right? But there really is a reason we called them Voodoo Economics...
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As Netflix is delivering content remotely to an end user, what exactly is the difference between it and say Satellite, Cable or even broadcast TV other than the medium utilized to deliver the data bits ?
We going to apply this " information tax " to everything else in the long run too ?
Pro Tip for the nobles: Entertainment ( you know. . . the whole bread and circuses thing ) is the only thing preventing the masses from burning down the entire Kingdom. You might want to reconsider throwing a wrench into that program. Assuming you like staying in that elected position and all . . .
What legal brilliance in Chicago thought this scheme up ?
why do a bunch of unelected fucks just get to invent a tax? what was the point of the revolution if we don't even get a vote.
The Internet service itself from the ISP is already taxed and other surplus fees. Wouldn't this be a double tax to use something you already paid tax on? This is a dangerous slop I would think. What is next changing an extra tax because you want to use the electricity to charge your car? Oh you want to use that water to bake bread with, yea there is a tax for that too...
New Chicago? That was a planet featured at the beginning of "The Mote in God's Eye" (Niven/Pournelle)
Did anyone take anything seriously after they saw that name? I didn't. Those people get what they are too lazy to divert. I've been there, rode in on a train, hired a bum to get us to the liquor store (not joking, dude took my whole party to a big underground liquor store, after which we went to the House of Blues)
Nexus is a concept that really needs to be redefined. Hasn't everyone seen how imprecise how geo-IP location is, not to mention how often it fails completely or is wildly inaccurate? Businesses have fixed, well-known locations in well-defined taxing districts; users taking delivery of intangibles over the internet are too hard to locate with certainty.
Clearly it's time for me to move!
The proper way to handle such ridiculous legal nonsense is to simply ignore it. Refuse to collect anything and pretend the law wasn't passed. Then make Chicago do all the legal work to form a case proving they actually need to comply with the law. That's cheaper, easier, and more likely to work than immediately lawyering up and fighting it.
Every February it started again anew, there's going to be a tax on the Internet, it became a ritual posting and thread. Now it seems to of taken place, it only takes one to spread.
Here's a tax that applies to creative works like films, but there is no additional tax on confederate flags.
The US Government, and the governments of the individual states (like Illinois) and cities (like Chicago) are currently taking in more money than ever before in the history of the US, both in raw dollars AND as a percent of the income of a middle class citizen. Nearly every "spending cut" that the left screams about is a reduction in the rate of INCREASE in spending.
There IS NO LIMIT to the appetite of the left for other people's money. Every dollar you take from Peter to give to Paul buys Paul's vote, and as long as Peter has even one dollar more then Paul, the politician doing this will get a benefit from it.
The left used to routinely scream that it was unfair to tax people who have no representation (part of the justification for giving the vote to people who were not land owners, for example) but it has gradually become a mainstay of left wing governance to do exactly that: Most big cities have a "hotel tax" which taxes people who are only visiting the city and will never get to cast a vote there. The more-recent addition to this is a tax on businesses in other states, whose people get no benefit from the taxes and have no vote on them. These are all scams designed to buy the votes of local residents while transferring the burden to people who have no vote in the matter. Often, the excuse is offered that out-of-state businesses are somehow "cheating" by lawfully and justly not paying local sales taxes..... but the justification for those taxes in the first place is that local businesses (which DO pay those taxes) make use of local police, fire, street repair, power, water, etc (which the out-of-state businesses do IN THEIR HOME STATES where they DO pay).
Incidentally, there is a related dishonest scam: the so-called "use tax". It it blatantly unconstitutional in the US (explicitly so) for one state to charge a sales tax on a sale in another state or to apply a tax to a good or service entering one state from another. Progressive politicians, aided by progressive judges, have violated this very basic prohibition by charging a "sales tax" of stuff sold within their states and then applying a "use tax" to stuff imported from other states. It is a deceit. The use tax is always on the same stuff and in the same percent as the sales tax, applied without checking if the product is used or not used, and never applied in addition to the sales tax on things sold withing the state.
All of these evils and more are the norm in any place run by Democrats (like all the big corrupt, dangerous and bankrupt cities in the US).
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.” - Margaret Thatcher
all the indirect taxes:
Every tax that is applied to any business becomes a "cost" or "expense" on their accounting books which must be folded into the prices they charge for products and services. Politicians LOVE to apply taxes to businesses as though this means somebody else is being shaken-down for the money; when they do this they are relying on their gullible voters to blame the businesses for the resulting rising prices, reduced quality, reduced quantity, reduced availability etc that naturally results.
Every regulation that orders a business to do something at its own expense in place of government doing it is also a hidden tax whose costs must be passed through to the consumer. Regulations like "don't use slave labor" are not in this category, but regulations like "in exchange for being allowed to expand your own factory on your own land, you must provide snow plow services every winter on the streets within 4 blocks or your factory and you must hand over some land to create a public park" are in this category. In this latter case, which has become quite common in big cities in the US, the government is not just banning a bad behavior equally by all businessmen but actually making a particular business buy something on behalf of the government which the government would have otherwise had to buy with taxpayer funds.
In a Democracy, the majority of votes wins on all arguments, exactly like in an anarchy where mobs of thugs reign - except that a formal vote is taken before the raping, pillaging, and plundering begins in a Democracy and the losers of the vote are expected to peacefully submit to the winners; this is why our founding fathers explicitly ruled out creating the United States as a Democracy.
In a Constitutional Republic, which is what the United States was explicitly founded to be, there is a dusty piece of parchment with rules on it that trump any majority vote on basic matters. In this case, a parchment that specifically forbids politicians in one state from taxing a business in another state. The problem of course is that when you have politicians and judges who are "progressive" and think they can "re-interpret" the words in the supposedly "living document" then the words become meaningless and the protections afforded by the document are up for negotiation. If you claim the right to re-interpret and discover unwritten things in the document to support some policy preference, then you have damned yourself to all of the document be re-interpreted and things like new abilities to tax being discovered (and your opponents REALLY ruining your day if they ever get in power and start re-interpreting and discovering things....).
“A republic, if you can keep it.” - Benjamin Franklin, in response to a woman who asked what sort of government the Constitutional Convention had produced.
Any dopey younger voter who keeps enthusiastically voting "Democrat" (because: abortion, or because: gay, etc) has no right to complain. This stuff is all ends-justiry-the-means, re-define words and re-interpret laws to grow government and inject it into all aspects of life left-wing principles; the two ideologies are not severable. If you want to give lots of stuff away for free, punish some people for being too successful, and use the force of government to make people accept your beliefs to the point of MAKING them change their traditions, religions etc, you need massive, powerful, expensive government..... which requires you to tax everything in sight. You might personally believe in abortion, gay marriage, etc and THAT does not cost money, but the moment you want government to support those things and force people to provide them or to support them, you need government power and taxes fund that.
Chicago does not have the right to regulate interstate commerce. Only the Federal Government can do that, per the Constitution of the United States.
Living in Chicago now? Start sharing netflix id's across the board - hurt's netflix's revenue (laughingly, on slightly) and the city at the same time. Can you imagine the look on their face when they see 1 netflix account for Chicago? I know, I know - limited devices active on a single account - would still be hilarious though. Otherwise, you can always go back to bit torrent.
Not in America anyway. The laws changed and you can no longer discharge debt less than 100k. It's not the clean slate it used to be.
.com boom while the economy was doing so well nobody noticed...
That's really the biggest trouble in America today. Everyone believes there's this safety net, but it's gone. Clinton gutted it in the 90s during the
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is the gradual and accelerating erosion of Internet freedom. On a recent trip to China I got a hint of what the future will be like. We all know that Google and many other sites are banned in China, but we understand the knock-on effects? Many sites, including our own, use Google services of one sort or another, a choice that renders them broken in China. A banning here, a closed reddit there, a tax in the windy city; slowly the noose tightens on the glory that was our network.
Couldn't the use of VPNs some money?
I don't understand how they're going to know you use the service, unless you pay by credit card. I use PayPal for all online purchases. You can make up any "delivery" address that you like. If you use a VPN, Netflix won't know where it's going, and Comcast won't know what you're getting. Of course, few people bother with this privacy nonsense.
-- sudon't
Air-ride Equipped
"I just reply to you when I see you spamming Slashdot with your nonsense"- by dave420 (699308) on Friday June 19, 2015 @10:31AM (#49945047)
Why'd you agree w/ my points on hosts then? Quoting you:
"I'm not denying all those things" - by dave420 (699308) on Wednesday September 17, 2014 @11:39AM (#47927435) FROM -> http://yro.slashdot.org/commen...
Of course not: It's impossible to dispute HOSTS FILES superiority to other methods!
Since my points in favor of hosts SINGLE FILE native kernelmode faster part show hosts doing more w/ less vs. so-called 'competitors' many part messagepassing + cpu/ram use overheads laden slower usermode FAR MORE COMPLEX 'solutions' doing less than hosts do for more security, speed, reliability, + anonymity!
---
* QUESTION:
DO YOU WORK FOR AN ADVERTISING FIRM, or ARE YOU A WEBMASTER/WEBCODER http://slashdot.org/comments.p... , or a MALWARE MAKER, or ARE YOU AFFILIATED WITH 1 OF MY COMPETITORS?
Answer it!
As per your usual you'll avoid every question, or lie & You've been EXPOSED in your "motives" in the last link just above, lol!
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"I'm simply pointing out that it takes an AdBlocker to block your spamming"- by dave420 (699308) on Friday June 19, 2015 @10:31AM (#49945047)
I bother you? Then WHY DON'T YOU DO IT & use 'em? Answer that!
(You stalk/harass me instead!)
OBVIOUSLY you don't & you're a "ne'er-do-well" troll & you have "other motivations" (the QUESTION above you'll AVOID TO NO END, "Gosh, I wonder WHY?" (not!)):
---
I make creating a superior more efficient solution EASIER (That's more than a mere trolling stalking harassing "ne'er-do-well" like yourself could *EVER* manage).
APK
P.S.=> See Dave420 the "pot puffing clown" SQUIRM - evasions galore will ensue (as well as effete downmods via sockpuppets to *try* vainly "hide it" -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... )... apk
no facts. You, sir, outed yourself.
Do you
A) hate civilization
B) want to freeload off of everyone else that pays for it?
$ vi reasons-to-never-ever-move-to-chicago.txt
PageDown
PageDown
PageDown
PageDown
PageDown
PageDown
dang... how many pages are there?
PageDown
PageDown
PageDown
PageDown
Shoulda' done this to start with.
G
wait... wait... wait...
ERROR: /tmp file system full
... crap.
sorry, I wasn't clear. It's not just sitting around doing nothing. The ultra wealthy are hording wealth in order to create artificial scarcity so they can use their control of society's wealth to bend it to their whims. There's more too it than that in order for them to stay in power, but the basic element is conservationism. e.g. making sure _nothing_ changes. Controlling all of society's wealth is a very effective way to achieve that. The constant desperation brought on by artificially induced poverty makes everyone else very conservative and very opposed to change out of fear that things will get worse; that you'll lose what little you have. The 1% use this to keep folks from questioning why they have so little when the top guys have so much. It's also very important that no one ever notices that if the 1% didn't exist we could all live pretty well. This isn't me pulling $h!t out of my proverbial back side. We're already producing enough food to feed the world's population. And giving poor folks access to birth control & education has shown to control population perfectly (maybe even a bit too much). We can do it, but not when we've got 1% of the world consuming 60% of the resources.
:(
Sorry, again it's complicated. I don't know how to boil it down to sound bites that work. I've got a few (e.g. "I don't want insurance, I want health care") but if I was as good as Karl Rove I'd probably use those skills for the other side. With everything in the world so horrible it takes a saint to use that kind of power for good...
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