Slashdot Mirror
Greece Rejects EU Terms
New submitter Thammuz writes: With almost all ballots counted, Greeks voted overwhelmingly "No" on Sunday in a bailout referendum, defying warnings from the EU that rejecting new austerity terms would set their country on a path out of the euro. Figures published by the interior ministry showed nearly 62% of those whose ballots had been counted voting "No", against 38% voting "Yes". "Today we celebrate the victory of democracy, but tomorrow all together we continue and complete a national effort for exiting this crisis," Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras said in a televised address.
One size doesn't fit all, so it should come as no surprise that a currency made for industrial nations doesn't work so well for a tourist economy.
Nationalism is the main threat for destroying the European Union. And that is not going to be good for the Greek people, not for people in other countries. Is a win-win vs lose-lose situation. Please, everyone, more brain and less nationalism.
The Greeks can't seem to come to terms with reality. It is for the best of the EU they are booted. Clearly they don't understand austerity is necessary, they want their free shit to run on forever. Sadly, their free ride has broken down.
I am Belgian. Greece owes me, my wife and children over 3000 euro. We fronted it out of our taxes and if they don't pay us back, we'll pay it back out of our taxes. Now, I am all for social solidarity... anybody who has spent time here in Belgium knows how easy it is for an IT worker to do independent contracts under the table. I declare all of my side activities and pay my taxes specifically because I believe in helping those who are down on their luck.
But solidarity is a two-way street. Greece was bailed out once, in 2010, in exchange for reforms. They were slow in reforming and in 2012 we had to bail them out again... and they still haven't reformed and here we are in 2015 and they want more money. The reforms that our governments are asking are not onerous. It basically comes down to "don't spend more than you can pay". The Greeks for some reason seem to think that the rest of the Eurozone should pay for armies of useless bureaucrats and pensioners whose median pensions are higher than ours make more than my parents. Now, Greece is small and strategically important, so maybe every Belgian should just give them 600 euro and call it a day.
But then Podemos in Spain will be asking for the same thing. Then the Five star movement in Italy will want their free money. I'm sorry, but fuck you guys. I work my fucking ass off to support my family and my countrymen. Greece threw my good will in my face. They can go become lackeys to the Russians for all I care, fight a civil war, I don't care. I hope my government refuses to give them another cent.
Well goody for Greece where a majority thinks that that they can vote themselves out of responsibility for borrowing themselves into a hole. Now it's the turn of everyone else in Europe to decide whether to continue throwing good money after bad. The Greeks claim that the banks & everyone else are the problem. We'll soon see how well they do without either.
Democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the issue
People only in their dreams are US Republicans not actually the most servile, rule-bound people on Earth. You have to look very hard to find another country than Greece where the population does essentially what it likes and fuck the govt. Everything from taxes to road signs is a suggestion in Greece.
The only reason Greece would be Republican's dream is because it's a fine example of what happens when socialists finally run out of other people's money.
Citizen of Belgium here. That is totally cool with me. Please pay back the 660 euro per person that you owe us on your way out, though (in Euro, not Drachma)
Now they seem to be wanting a 30% discount on their debt. Funny that!
You give up now the 30%, and tomorrow they will put together another act like this to have another 30% cut.
Never negotiate with Debt Terrorists!
There are rules to be in the Euro zone. Nobody forced anybody to accept those rules.
If Greeks now they finally came to reality that retiring at 50yo might lead to shortage of pension funds, and they want "discounts", they should be booted out of EU.
The failure occurred within the banking structure itself. The irresponsible people were those selling junk portfolios. Iceland took the proper path in this matter, and everybody else should follow suit. I don't fall for that right wing schtick of blaming poor people who actually need help.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
I do not think the voters realize the consequences of the vote they just made. They voted to not accept the terms of a bailout which was asking for slightly reduced government spending and slightly more taxation of businesses in Greece, who have been simply not paying taxes due for decades.
This will result in Greece leaving the Euro and presumably the EU as well or at least reduce it to whatever status UK has. They have their own currency.
Greece will have to print its own currency again and distribute it via physical and electronic means to replace Euro holdings within Greece. Here's the rub. Based on current exchange rates with similarly situated economies fiscally, the exchange rate is likely to approximate 60% of the EU to $G or whatever they call it, probably the Drachma.
So people will have 40% less standard of living in exchange for a patriotic rant yesterday.
Once they realize this by experience they will seek a referendum as they have done several times recently, changing parties each time to try to change things. They didn't change. Greece has 50% unemployment, total public assistance, low tax collections, early retirement, and other factors that make zero financial sense, which is why they have debt several times their GDP and a credit rating of CCC, the lowest.
Greece will be monitizing debt, devaluing the currency and generally lowering the standard of living at a rapid pace much like the Fed does in the US at a steady pace by forcing 2% inflation. 10% less buying power every 5 years!!
Greece will lose 40% currency value overnight and an additional 3-6% for year into the forceable future, and owe the existing debt to EU until paid, payable with deflated currency exchanging to a powerful EU currency, a double cost repayment. Welcome to your future. You chose it.
JJ
Single currencies never work. Just look at the disaster that is the 50 disparate states sharing the so called "US Dollar".
Greece is screwed either way. We can argue about blame all day (and there's plenty to go around) but Greece is not Iceland. They keep voting for more bread and circuses and then collectively refusing to pay taxes for it. If they go back to the Drachma, the government isn't going to suddenly get their shit together and fix the country's problems. They'll just end up printing more and more money and drive the inflation levels out of control.
Borrowing, who cares? Federal government spending is on auto-pilot to increase dramatically over the coming decades. When the feds run out of borrowing capacity, they will have no where else to turn but to raid people's investments. We are just as bad as the Greeks. We don't want to pay for our government, either.
http://www.usgovernmentdebt.us...
"We receive as friendly that which agrees with, we resist with dislike that which opposes us" - Faraday
It doesn't help that Greece was forced into an austerity plan in their last bailout. Essentially that kicked off a death spiral. Austerity has already been well discredited (see here, here, and here. Original paper here) yet it keeps being foisted off on citizens everywhere.
I'm not suggesting that Greece should spend money like a drunken sailor on leave, but following a faith based economic theory even after it has been disproven (even to the satisfaction of the writers of the original paper) is not the answer.
All EU citizens should demand a referendum asking if the taxpayers should pay this 'debt' created by derivatives and fraudulent market trading, or tell the bankers to write it off, suck it up, and never again be allowed to put depositor funds at risk on this commodities shell game ever again. And I have no trouble using some form of asset forfeiture against them to recover some of the stolen funds.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
that's what the greek people expected to happen. just printing more money.
NOW essentially what the goverment can do is to tax all money that is being held in greek accounts, almost the same as just printing new money.
they can't just print more money since they're in the euro, but the people still expect (and syriza promised to !) to pay money as usual. they expect that the government pays out more money than it has because that's "democratic".
also a confusing ballot is democratic according to syriza.. with an unlawlully short campaign time to boot. not that it matters, the cash is going to run out anyways. it's like the prime minister and finance minister either deliberately try to run the country into a crisis or they don't have even cursory knowledge of how things work.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Greece is getting thrown under the bus, "austerity". Aka lower living standards for the working class. It's already " live within your means " with you people. The Greeks weren't living the high life. A bunch of Rick asshats were passing bad debt around during the housing boom and Greece got caught holding the bag. If a big country like Germany had done it no harm no foul. It was too much for Greece though. And the powers that be are gonna use this to steal a bunch of old v folks pensions.
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As a Greek, I am stunned, and disappointed, by the level of criticism (and hate!) in slashdot. What I clearly see is that fellow Europeans are being told huge LIES about the Greek crisis, and what this referendum means. I'll try to put things in perspective:
1. The money fellow European governments are giving us, are not free; They are loans, that we happily repay, even if the interest rate is a highway robbery compared to what they are paying.
2. Nobody said about "writing off the debt". What we ask is for the due date to go further in the future and the interest rate to be lower.
3. If the rest of the European governments cared at all to be repaid, then they wouldn't insist on "reforms" which have been 100% proven wrong, such as tax increases and pension/wage cuts. These are the stuff we object to. Many of the other important reforms (early pensions, unemployment benefits) are already imposed for quite some time now. I could write a book about how increasing taxes can't increase a country's GDP but guess what, there are even now so many books that prove this.
4. Especially to my Belgian friends: The 2 bailouts of Greece helped repay loans given by private sector banks. In effect, we traded private sector loans with state loans. In other words, you people lended us money so that your banks didn't lose their money. Now we owe you money (instead of your private banks) AND you think that this was a mistake. We do too, so we agree on this.
5. Greece doesn't need more money to "keep spending above its limit". We've had a more or less balanced budget for the last couple of years, apart from the loan interest payments. So we need you to lend us money so we can repay the loans you already gave us. Is this more reasonable than what we're asking? (To postpone the pay off date and decrease interest rate)
6. You are angry because we tricked our selves into the eurozone. You are right. We are angry too that you tricked us into the eurozone. There was nothing good for us there, no reason at all to be part of it, yet our politicians agreed with your politicians that we need to be part of it, no matter what. And they, all together, agreed to put Greece into the Eurozone, what a huge mistake that was and oh how many lies were told so we believed them (you did too). They made a ton of money out of it. Then they made a ton of money from the debt crisis itself. Meanwhile, half the Europe suffers from austerity (with Greece being the most hardly hit country, but Spain, Portugal, Ireland and Cyprus got a great feeling of what austerity means) and the other half is being taught that "lazy Greeks are asking to be given for more money).
Friends, stop hating each other, we're passed beyond this. The people is suffering, not only in Greece, but in other nations too. A Polish fried says "you should see my country", and some other said "we're poorer than you". And why is this? Who is benefiting? Does this mean that Poland et.al. have to double their taxes and cut their wages in half and pensions by 60%, destroy their healthcare and educational system, sell out everything that can be sold, just to become "richer"? Would anyone really suggest that? Then why is it a must-have for Greece? How on earth will this help repay the loans? Up until now, it has created a 27% unemployment and 99% misery.
So, please people, don't believe what your media say. You're not giving away money, we're not asking for free money. Greece has paid the price, and was punished hard, for decades of poor planning, bad habits and outrageous corruption. But it's time for other countries to stop hiding behind the propaganda and be realistic, just like we are now.
The resulting currency devaluation will make greek goods cheaper and exports will boom.
Greece can't export tourism.
Tourism *is* an export - foreign money comes in, services go out. Fair enough, the services occur locally, but they still go out while money comes in. Thus it's an export.
I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
It's the person who believes the lie, or knows that's it's a lie and uses it for profit that creates the problem.
Greece lied to get into the Euro because it thought it was going to be richer with a stronger currency. The EU turned a blind eye to it because they wanted the Eurozone to be as large as possible. Both are now going to suffer because of it. The Eurozone countries are not going to get their money back and Greece is almost certain to exit the Euro and very possibly the EU since there is currently no legal means to drop the Euro while an EU member. At this point the best thing to do is make this happen as quickly and painlessly as possible.