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New Horizons Phones Home After Pluto Flyby -- Craft Healthy, Data Recorded

Tablizer was one of several readers to note that the New Horizons probe has completed its flyby of Pluto and radioed home to confirm that it went without incident. Mission Ops manager Alice Bowman said the spacecraft was healthy, full of data, and sharing telemetry. The images New Horizon collected haven't been downloaded yet, but NASA decided to tide us over by releasing this high-resolution view from the day before. It was taken when the probe was still 768,000 kilometers away with a resolution of 3.8km per pixel. (Closest approach was approximately 12,500km.) They also released an exaggerated-color image of Pluto and Charon which highlights the non-uniformity of both worlds.

Pictures from closest approach are not yet available. Expect another post late Wednesday or early Thursday with those images. The reason for this is that New Horizons can't take pictures and send them to us at the same time, so imaging activity is interspersed with downlinks to Earth to transmit data. Emily Lakdawalla has posted a downlink schedule. On Wednesday afternoon (ET), the probe will transmit three images of Pluto that were taken from 77,000km away, with a resolution of 0.4 km per pixel. They'll be the first three pieces of a mosaic of Pluto's surface, and the dwarf planet will fill all three frames. It will take a full 16 months for New Horizons to transmit all the data it collects. (Lakdawalla also added Pluto to a montage of the biggest non-planets in the solar system. New Horizon's measurements indicate Pluto is slightly larger than we thought. It's now considered the largest of the Kuiper Belt objects.)

76 of 134 comments (clear)

  1. It's larger than we thought, lets call it a planet by youn · · Score: 3, Insightful

    lol, that surely won't wake up any old controversy :)

    anyway, awesome to see images coming through

    --
    Never antropomorphize computers, they do not like that :p
  2. Re:It's larger than we thought, lets call it a pla by Crashmarik · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Still say they should have named Charon, Goofy.

  3. need for delay befor the images are released by frovingslosh · · Score: 3, Funny

    You can bet that, after NASA recently cut out of a live broadcast of the earth from space when 3 UFOs suddenly appeared in the video, that this data will be thoroughly picked through to make sure that there are no more unwelcome photobombs in these pictures.

    --
    I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
    1. Re:need for delay befor the images are released by DeBaas · · Score: 2

      yep, used to take NASA minutes to redact the alien bases out of the pics. But with all those conspiracy nuts nitpicking over a few artifacts in the pics they have to be much more thorough..

      --
      ---
  4. Re:It's larger than we thought, lets call it a pla by lokedhs · · Score: 2
    I'm sure people will now want to redefine planet as any object circling the sun with a radius of 0.185 km or greater (because obviously Eris at 0.1825 km can't possibly be a planet).

    And, because this is the Internet, I'm being sarcastic.

  5. NASA's amazing capabilities by chipschap · · Score: 4, Insightful

    NASA's staff does amazing things and this is another one. Imagine what they could do with adequate funding, non-politicized leadership, and freedom from overwhelming bureaucracy. It's a huge credit to the staff that despite enormous obstacles they do a lot of great science.

    1. Re:NASA's amazing capabilities by chipschap · · Score: 1

      "That would be 0% administrative fees (except for NASA overhead, of course)"

      Which runs, what? 99.99% or so?

      Not completely kidding here .....

    2. Re:NASA's amazing capabilities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The occupation of Iraq was costing something like $8 billion per day. If we cut that entirely, we could fund NASA forever and have enough money left over to cure cancer and AIDS in the next five years.

    3. Re: NASA's amazing capabilities by bondsbw · · Score: 1

      But who needs a cure?

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    4. Re:NASA's amazing capabilities by digitig · · Score: 1

      What, and cut off Big Pharma's revenue stream for palliative drugs?

      (I'm not sure whether I'm joking or not.)

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    5. Re:NASA's amazing capabilities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I wonder how much funding an equivalent organization which didn't belong to any nation would get if it was entirely funded by donations from all over the world? I'm not American so I couldn't pay NASA if I wanted to and I'm not sure I'd want to if I could due to the military applications of a lot of the technology they develop. However, if a purely international space exploration organization, which was clearly not tied to any nation existed, I would donate to it and I'm sure many others all over the world would too. The question is whether such an organization would get a bigger budget than NASA? Not even the biggest fundraising drives on kickstarter would get any space exploration projects very far so I doubt it but it's a nice thought.

    6. Re:NASA's amazing capabilities by dywolf · · Score: 2

      Or just one day of funding to the illegal aliens with free stuff.

      well obviously you have absolutely no clue how much we actually spend on that.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
  6. Re:First! by jimmydevice · · Score: 1

    I blame my 1200 Baud modem.

  7. After 5:00 AM EDT by mbone · · Score: 4, Informative

    The first data download with pictures from the encounter (the "New York TImes" download) will start at 5:00 AM EDT Wednesday. Expect some in the morning, and a lot during the 3:00 PM EDT NASA Press Conference.

  8. Re:It's larger than we thought, lets call it a pla by mbone · · Score: 1, Insightful

    And, because this is the Internet, I'm being sarcastic.

    And moving your decimal places to the left.

  9. Re:It's larger than we thought, lets call it a pla by lokedhs · · Score: 2

    (Thank you frovingslosh for mentioning my mistake before I had time to comment myself). The dimensions I quoted are not km, but earth radii. That's what you get for copy/pasting from Wikipedia without even thinking (it should be obvious to anyone that Pluto is larger than a fraction of a km in diameter).

  10. largest already by arth1 · · Score: 4, Informative

    ,

    It's now considered the largest of the Kuiper Belt objects.

    It already was considered that. Eris, the previous contender for largest dwarf planet, has not been considered a Kuiper Belt Object for a long time now, but a Scattered Disk Object.

  11. Re:clean sweep by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 2

    The vehicles you refer to on Earth are autonomous, rather than being remotely piloted. Because of latency, all rovers on other planets have to be at least somewhat autonomous. Teleoperator control is only possible on the Moon, and barely.

  12. Re:It's larger than we thought, lets call it a pla by FatdogHaiku · · Score: 2

    Well, there's no getting Pluto back to it's old status, now that they spotted those Kuiper Belt Loops...
    http://xkcd.com/1551/

    --
    You have the right to remain sentient. If you give up the right to remain sentient, you will be elected to public office
  13. Control room as status reports came in by Tablizer · · Score: 2

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    There's no "redo" in this mission, and the probe could have encountered local particles where a sand-sized grain could have killed the probe during its dive past Pluto, perhaps part of a thin or ex-ring. There was a lot to be worried about during that "silent" main encounter.

    It's kind of like sending your kid to college, but not hearing anything from or about him/her until her final report card comes in the mail.

  14. Re:It's larger than we thought, lets call it a pla by FatdogHaiku · · Score: 1

    (Thank you frovingslosh for mentioning my mistake before I had time to comment myself). The dimensions I quoted are not km, but earth radii. That's what you get for copy/pasting from Wikipedia without even thinking (it should be obvious to anyone that Pluto is larger than a fraction of a km in diameter).

    To be fair, it looks a lot bigger when it's excited.
    Judging from the photos it was Very Happy to see New Horizons...

    --
    You have the right to remain sentient. If you give up the right to remain sentient, you will be elected to public office
  15. Downlink by Solandri · · Score: 4, Informative

    Downlink speed is limited to 1 kbps (bits, not bytes). 2 kbps if they use a trick involving shutting down power to instruments to boost transmit power.

    Reminds me of the early 1990s when JPEG images first started showing up. Full-color 640x480 GIF photo scans were a couple hundred kB and could take 10+ minutes to download over my 2400 baud modem. I was astounded that a 30-40 kB JPEG could look just as good to the eye. Course the JPEG took over half a minute to decode and display back then, but combined with download time it was still faster. (Yes computers and network speeds used to be that slow - it's why the early web made extensive use of thumbnail pics.)

    1. Re:Downlink by mbone · · Score: 5, Informative

      Downlink speed is limited to 1 kbps (bits, not bytes). 2 kbps if they use a trick involving shutting down power to instruments to boost transmit power.

      That's actually a dual polarization mode - this is the first spacecraft with a dual-polarization data transmit capability. (And, yes, it does require more power, and so won't be used until they are well past Pluto and can put things on standby.) Even with that, it will take 16 months to get all of the data back.

    2. Re:Downlink by Tablizer · · Score: 2

      Back then I often used the browser's "switch graphics off" option for most sites since I didn't come to the Web for pics...well okay...maybe a tad of porn.

      It's hard to switch graphics off in newer browsers. It's deeper in the menu tree or a plug-in.

      I want that feature back for mobile devices, because they often either have 1990's speeds and/or have expensive bytes.

    3. Re:Downlink by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "Remember when the internet used to be this slow? Up all night and you'd see eight women" -- The IT Crowd

    4. Re:Downlink by stud9920 · · Score: 5, Funny

      What a waste of time. In these 10 years since launch, they could have precomputed every possible picture, hash them, and then the probe could have simply sent the hashes instead of the full size pictures.

    5. Re:Downlink by Big+Hairy+Ian · · Score: 2

      Sorry I got baud of that

      --

      Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.

    6. Re:Downlink by bunratty · · Score: 2

      But New Horizons was trying to avoid collisions, not create them!

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    7. Re:Downlink by Lord+Crc · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In these 10 years since launch, they could have precomputed every possible picture, hash them, and then the probe could have simply sent the hashes instead of the full size pictures.

      Just for fun, let's see what it would take for them to pull this off. The LORRI image sensor is 1024x1024 pixels with 12 bits per pixel.

      So the number of distinct images divided by the timespan available gives 2^(12*20) / (10 years) = about 5.6 * 10^63 hashes per second.

      Let's say you had a CPU capable of computing one such image hash per nanosecond (very optimistic), you'd need 2^(12*20) / (10 years) / (1 nanosecond) = about 5.6 * 10^54 CPUs to pull this off.

      For comparison that's an order of magnitude or so more than the number of nucleons in our earth.

      If those CPUs consumed 50W of power computing these hashes (again very optimistic), the entire project would consume 2^(12*20) / (1 nanosecond) * (50 watt) = 8.8 * 10^64 joules.

      For reference that's two orders of magnitude more than the total mass-energy (including dark matter) of the Virgo supercluster, the supercluster which contains our Milky Way galaxy.

      Unless I messed up the calculations that is...

    8. Re:Downlink by nsre · · Score: 1

      Although it's an intentionally ridiculous proposal, I imagine some amount of collisions could be tolerated, as one could simply view the image to determine if it's a picture of a planet to deconflict.

    9. Re:Downlink by PRMan · · Score: 1

      What if they sent the checksums first and then created all the 1024x1024 images that match that checksum. Pick the one that looks like Pluto.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
  16. Re:What comes after? by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    There are two potential Kuiper-belt objects the probe could explore, based on remaining propellant. Both are rather small, though.

    I've read the power system will hold out until about 2030, although some instruments may not function very well before that with lower power.

  17. New Horizons acronym? by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    NASA usually has screw-ball acronyms for probe and instrument names. Does "New Horizons" have one?

    Non-Earth-Wayward-Historical-Oort-Reaching-(and)-Identifying-Zenith-Oriented-NASA-System or the like? Give 5 pts. to the best guess...

    (Mine probably won't pass, I know)

    1. Re:New Horizons acronym? by Quirkz · · Score: 1

      Only if you can't find a way to pronounce "nh." I'm pretty sure that's the first thing I say every morning when I wake up.

  18. Why are we doing this? by godrik · · Score: 2

    I love cool probe taking pictures of distant planets (or whatever pluto is called these days). But why are we doing this? Just because we can? For the pleasure of exploring? Or is the exploration of pluto key in understanding some phenomena?

    1. Re:Why are we doing this? by klui · · Score: 1

      Our solar system consists of 3 classes of objects: rocky planets, gas giants, dwarf bodies. Going to Pluto allows us to study the 3rd class. Scientists think these dwarf objects in the Kuiper Belt are the building blocks of planets but did not have a chance to accumulate into one since our solar system formed and studying objects in that area will give us a more complete understanding of what happened during the early age of our solar system.

      http://pluto.jhuapl.edu/Pluto/...

      I think this mission is especially challenging because it's so far away. Mission planners need to account for the considerable latency involved.

    2. Re:Why are we doing this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Pluto and other Kuiper belt objects are the left overs from the formation of the solar system.. the raw ingredients.

      This mission is planning on gaining great insights into formation of planetary systems, primarily our own but it should help modeling others..

      also Pluto will be almost twice as far away from us within the next century, this was really the last feasible attempt to get a chance to explore it in a reasonable time (9 years)... its got a 248 year elongated orbit, pluto has barely completed 1/3rd of an orbit since it was discovered.

    3. Re:Why are we doing this? by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      The exploration of Pluto is key in understanding the phenomenon of the solar system.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
  19. Re:clean sweep by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

    I was alive in the Mariner days ('62) but too young to remember that series....

    I remember Sputnik and having a hard time understanding how it stayed up there. I still haven't lost my sense of wonder at all of the marvelous things we've done, seen and learned in my lifetime.

    --
    Good, inexpensive web hosting
  20. Re:First! by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    Beats Comcast still.

  21. I was really excited about this by jez9999 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'd been waiting for this and following New Horizons so obviously it's great to see, but what slightly tainted the coverage for me was all the freaking USA flag-wavin'. Do you guys really always have to do that? Obama called it "American leadership". Look, I know it was launched and managed by NASA but it involved various non-US technology and experts, not to mention plenty of non-US interest (and non-interest from most US citizens who won't even have heard of New Horizons until yesterday).

    I do think your nationalism ruins things a bit. At one point a NASA guy said it was "all about America" in a room full of US flags. Funny, I thought it was all about Pluto. Can't it just be a victory for human ingenuity and curiosity?

    1. Re:I was really excited about this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, we did it and will take credit for it. Thanks.

    2. Re:I was really excited about this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Most of the technology was american.
      Most of the non-american technology was developed mostly with american technology.
      Most to almost all of the cost was covered by US Taxpayers.

        I think that the US flag waving is fair. But I agree that's a victory for humanity. I guess I'd call it "American leadership" too..

    3. Re:I was really excited about this by jez9999 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In fact the core technology of the 2 main imaging devices, LORRI and RALPH, was British.

    4. Re:I was really excited about this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Without the nationalism and pride behind the space race in the 60's we wouldn't be anywhere near where we are today. And just like we europeans cheerfully pat ourselves on the back for the Rosetta and other achievements, USA has now won the race to send robots to all the planets. That _is_ something to take pride in, and they can celebrate in every way they want. Congratulations!

    5. Re:I was really excited about this by dave420 · · Score: 1

      You proffer some vague guesses, and then come to the conclusion that flag-waving is fine. Brilliant. Really logical stuff.

    6. Re:I was really excited about this by dave420 · · Score: 1

      But that wasn't an American probe. It had contributions from the world over, and was based on the work of people from many other countries. I think that's the problem - the willingness to turn a blind eye to the facts because nationalism. You are using nonsense to explain why you are behaving in an irrational manner, and seem to think that's wonderfully acceptable.

    7. Re:I was really excited about this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There's also an American flag on the Moon. Get over it and enjoy the science.

    8. Re:I was really excited about this by McGruber · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I'd been waiting for this and following New Horizons so obviously it's great to see, but what slightly tainted the coverage for me was all the freaking USA flag-wavin'. Do you guys really always have to do that?

      We American Scientists do things like that because the number of politicians and voters who are for nationaldickwaving is much larger than the number of politicians and voters who are for science. We don't like the national dickwaving, but sometimes we just have to take one for the team.

      Obama called it "American leadership".

      If Obama had not said something along those lines, the American news media's coverage would have been dominated by Republican Presidential candidates attacking Obama's lack of patriotism.

      At one point a NASA guy said it was "all about America" in a room full of US flags. Funny, I thought it was all about Pluto.

      By uttering those three simple words, the NASA guy did his part to ensure that the US Congress would continue to fund NASA. Thank you, NASA guy, for taking one for the team.

      Can't it just be a victory for human ingenuity and curiosity?

      I wish it could be that, but the US Congress rarely provides funds for the victories of human ingenuity and curiosity.

    9. Re:I was really excited about this by njnnja · · Score: 1

      Any time you have an in-group/out-group dynamic, you have to be careful that it doesn't turn into one of the many times in human history when that becomes a source of unspeakable pain and suffering. Snubbing the contributions of other nations in the control room paid for by American taxpayers by employees whose paychecks are paid by American taxpayers is not really comparable to, say, African colonization or the First World War. Maybe you can hope that humans stop seeing some people as part of their group and other as not part of that group, but I don't see that happening any time soon. Since that way of viewing the world seems to be hard wired into humanity, I think it is great when it gets channeled into increasing human knowledge, or even scoring more goals than the guys in the red jerseys, rather than "let's slaughter them because they talk funny."

    10. Re:I was really excited about this by Solandri · · Score: 1

      You probably saw a lot of news coverage during the weekend of Independence Day - July 4th. The 4th is the anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence when the U.S. colonies began their revolt against the British Empire, so is considered the nation's birthday. It's a great big party over here. Everyone gets the day off (got July 3rd off since the 4th was a Saturday), puts up flags and dresses up in red, white, and blue, fires up the barbecue grill for a big family picnic with hot dogs and hamburgers, and watches fireworks at night. I hear those fireworks companies do over half their annual business on that one day alone.

      Same thing happened with Mars Pathfinder, which landed on 4 July 1997. The two really had little to do with each other, but with the news focused on both the nation's birthday and the pictures coming back from Mars' surface, it was inevitable that the connection between the two was oft mentioned, and most of NASA's staff were in national party mode when on camera.

    11. Re:I was really excited about this by thrich81 · · Score: 2

      If you look at the history of the launch vehicle used for New Horizons, the Atlas V, there wasn't all that much German content in it. The "German rocket meme" applied strongly to the Saturn series of rockets developed almost in a linear progression from the V-2 by von Braun's group in Huntsville. But while von Braun was working for the Army and later NASA in Huntsville, the Air Force was developing the Atlas and Titan rockets independently of the Germans. And a few decades further back, Robert Goddard developed the technology of liquid fueled rockets before and independently of the Germans in the 1920's and 30's. Here is a statement by von Braun himself, 'He (von Braun) once recalled that "Goddard's experiments in liquid fuel saved us years of work, and enabled us to perfect the V-2 years before it would have been possible."' -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/....

    12. Re:I was really excited about this by jgriffith325 · · Score: 1

      Late 2001?

    13. Re:I was really excited about this by thrich81 · · Score: 1

      Except for the Europeans, has any country had a significant space mission success without a burst of nationalist self-congratulation? The Russians do it, the Chinese do it, the Indians do it. Europe/ESA is the anomaly here. At this time in human history nationalism remains a strong motivator for national achievements (good and bad). And as someone pointed out before me, nationalism opens up the public budgets for missions like this. I'll turn your question around, without knowing if you are European or not -- why is it that Europe with a larger economy than the USA, arguably a better educated populace, and (arguably) equivalent technical abilities, has been so slow to execute significant missions like New Horizons? ESA has had a few notable missions such as Rosetta (yay!, go ESA) but unquestionably Europe has not matched the US in the peaceful exploration of space -- is it a lack of nationalism as a critical needed impetus? You take the good with the bad -- I'll take the nationalism if it gets us these missions.

  22. Re:It's larger than we thought, lets call it a pla by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 1

    Â(it should be obvious to anyone that Pluto is larger than a fraction of a km in diameter).

    Either way, that's a damn large dog.

  23. Re:It's larger than we thought, lets call it a pla by bunratty · · Score: 4, Funny

    They did name Charon, Doofus.

    --
    What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
  24. Re:It's larger than we thought, lets call it a pla by Sique · · Score: 2
    Actually, the five classical planets (which we call Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn) were known to all cultures we know of, thus we can call them "general knowledge", It has nothing to do with "European Aryan Übermensch". We can speculate that at least Uranus might have been discovered by other people than just Europeans, as the oldest known hint to its existence can be traced back to Hipparchos in 128 BC, but he didn't notice its planetary character. The discovery of Neptune with an apparent magnitude of 7.7 requires an optical instrument, as it is to dim to be discovered by a bare eye. Thus discovery of Neptune is restricted to cultures which were looking at the sky with optical instruments, which, as far as we know, leaves the Arabs and the Europeans.

    Thus, you are wrong. Planets (at least the above mentioned five) were discovered by about any culture we know of, and rightly assumed to be different from stars.

    --
    .sig: Sique *sigh*
  25. Title capitalization need to die! by Kinwolf · · Score: 1

    Goodness I'll never understand why in english all the first letter in an article title sentence are capitalized. I was reading the title and kept wondering why the heck Horizons new phones were "home" after the Pluto flyby.

    1. Re:Title capitalization need to die! by darniil · · Score: 1

      Not sure. Maybe (and I'm guessing here) because the title of an article could be considered the article's name, and the English language capitalizes names.

      Just a guess. A quick Google search gave me the various rules for capitalizing words in titles, but not the origin of the practice.

    2. Re:Title capitalization need to die! by j2.718ff · · Score: 1

      Goodness I'll never understand why in english all the first letter in an article title sentence are capitalized. I was reading the title and kept wondering why the heck Horizons new phones were "home" after the Pluto flyby.

      Changes in capitalization would not fix your problem. "Phones" can be a noun or verb, whether the P is capital or lower case. The real problem is that titles frequently use ambiguous wording.

      P.S. It is customary to capitalize "English".

    3. Re:Title capitalization need to die! by PRMan · · Score: 1

      Early newspapers wanted the titles to stand out from the article, but still not take up ALL CAPS block space.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
  26. We heart you too, Pluto by Carewolf · · Score: 1

    N/T

  27. Re:Life in 'MURICA by dywolf · · Score: 1

    strap giant rockets on pluto and smash it into Venus ala Planetary Annihilation.

    --
    The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
  28. Re:What comes after? by Convector · · Score: 2

    The spacecraft is powered by a radioisotope thermoelectic generator (RTG), but that's not a reactor. The power comes from heat produced by the decay of Plutonium, but there is no sustained nuclear chain reaction involved.

  29. Re:It's larger than we thought, lets call it a pla by frovingslosh · · Score: 1

    I don't remember pointing out the mistake. What are you talking about? Maybe you shouldn't have been posting at all?

    --
    I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
  30. Re:It's larger than we thought, lets call it a pla by dave420 · · Score: 1

    Hence them being called something different to just "star", meaning they were assumed to be different from stars.

  31. Re:clean sweep by darniil · · Score: 1

    The vehicles you refer to on Earth are autonomous, rather than being remotely piloted.

    Did you mean to say Mars, rather than Earth?

  32. Re:What comes after? by darniil · · Score: 1

    Will it be imaging and gathering data from the asteroid belt

    Unless New Horizons is going to swing back around and come back to the center of the Solar System, NH is well beyond the asteroid belt and won't be able to take any pictures of it in the future.

  33. The flag(s) on the moon bother me a whole lot less by Ellis+D.+Tripp · · Score: 1

    than the fact that Richard Nixon is the only US President to have his name on the moon (inscribed on the plaques attached to the LM descent stages). No mention of the 3 preceding presidents who actually created NASA and started the push toward the moon. Just tricky Dick, who wasted no time in KILLING the Apollo program shortly thereafter.

    On the bright side, those flags are surely bleached white and crumbled from all the UV radiation and thermal cycles they have seen over the last few decades. And the one left by Apollo 11 got knocked over when the LM lifted off....

    --
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  34. Re:It's larger than we thought, lets call it a pla by CauseBy · · Score: 1

    Size doesn't matter if it hasn't swept out its orbit. Pluto will never sweep out its orbit.

  35. We need to teach these folks about English syntax by jc42 · · Score: 2

    Lakdawalla also added Pluto to a montage of the biggest non-planets in the solar system.

    Thus starts another round of the old "Is Pluto a real planet?" fiasco. ;-)

    The pseudo-argument is really based on a poor understanding of basic English grammar. The word "dwarf" in the phrase "dwarf planet" is being used as an adjective modifying the noun "planet". A fellow at NASA (whose name I didn't catch) explained the fallacy of saying this means that Pluto isn't a real planet, by giving a few examples of the usage. Thus, we have several "dwarf apple trees" in our yard. Nobody who understand English would say that this means they're not real apple trees; they are real apple trees that bear real apples, but are much smaller (3-4m tall) than most (full-size) apple trees. Similarly, our sun is classified as a "dwarf star". This means that it's a real star that fuses H atoms and gives off light, but it's smaller than most of the stars you can see in the sky. This is a good thing, because a "full-size" star 140 million km from our planet would totally vaporize all our water, and would burn out in a few hundred million years, destroying our planet at the end of its life. If there are other intelligent critters on planets around other stars, those will also be multi-billion-years-old dwarf stars like ours (to within an order of magnitude). Most of the galaxy's stars are dwarf stars.

    Readers can probably think of lots of other common uses of "dwarf" or "pygmy" to mean a small version of something. This isn't mysterious; it's standard English syntax. (We have a potted "dwarf jade plant". It's a real jade plant, but its parts only grow to about 1/3 the size of the equivalent "standard" jade plant. It's a very easy sort of bonsai to grow. But when we bring it inside for the winter, we have to protect it from our cockatiels, who find it tasty.)

    Other astronomers have pointed out the major problem with the term "planet": It's far too inclusive. It includes object as varied as Mercury and Jupiter, so it's an almost useless classification term. The long-term sensible approach is to prepend various modifiers to say which of a list of classes a given planet is filed under. We have a few of them, like "gas giant", and the more recent "ice giant", of which our solar systems contains two each. The classification "dwarf" was added a few years ago for the tiny planets that can't hold an atmosphere. We still don't seem to have a standard classification for the 3 intermediate-size planets, Venus, Earth and Mars. We also haven't figure out good terminology for the similar objects (Titan, Triton, etc) that also have things like an atmosphere with weather, but which share an orbit with a planet in a larger class. Pluto is an interesting borderline case, because at the recent perihelion, it has had a very thin but significant atmosphere, which is now condensing out as the sun gets more distant.

    In the long run, we really should have a reliable set of classes for the sort of astronomical object that's big enough to be (roughly) spherical but too small for fusion to happen in its core. We've found that there are lots more of them in our solar system than we thought, at least 6 with atmospheres denser with ours, and several with thinner atmospheres. Pretty soon, we'll be getting good data on similar objects orbiting other stars.

    Calling all the round-but-not-stars objects "planet" is a useful term. But such a vague term really shouldn't ever be used without a prefix. Maybe the astronomical community should get a committee together to come up with a better list of planet classes than the current mess. And try to get the media and general public to use it correctly. ;-)

    Or maybe they should just officially declare "planet" to be a non-technical term, with no precise astronomical definition. But then they'd have to come up with some new technical terms, so they probably won't do that.

    In any case, saying a "dwarf planet" isn't a planet merely shows ignorance of basic English grammar. Some astronomers have pointed this out. We just need to get the word out to all the people who misunderstand it due to their poor command of the English language.

    --
    Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
  36. Re:Life in 'MURICA by Coren22 · · Score: 1

    Funny, cause the US funds some of the LHC as well. There was no reason to duplicate the work anyways.

    http://home.web.cern.ch/about/...

    --
    APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
  37. Re:Life in 'MURICA by KGIII · · Score: 1

    Bonus points if we knock it into the Sun and apply top-right English to make Pluto follow it.

    --
    "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  38. 16 months? by OhSoLaMeow · · Score: 1

    "It will take a full 16 months for New Horizons to transmit all the data it collects."

    What, does NASA use Comcast?

    --
    They can take my LifeAlert pendant when they pry it from my cold dead fingers.
  39. Re:NASA lied by jgriffith325 · · Score: 1

    No. It is much less painful. Hence the proliferation.

  40. Re:clean sweep by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

    I mean in both places the parent cited.