Slashdot Mirror


Microsoft Uses US Women's Soccer Team To Explain Why It Doesn't Hire More Women

theodp writes: "It is not surprising that the U.S. women have been dominant in the sport [of soccer] in recent years. The explanation for that success lies in the talent pipeline," writes General Manager of Citizenship & Public Affairs Lori Forte Harnick on The Official Microsoft Blog. "Said another way, many girls in the U.S. have the opportunity to learn how to play soccer and, as a result, they benefit from the teamwork, skill development and fun involved. That's the kind of opportunity I would like to see develop for the technology sector, which presents a different, yet perhaps even more significant, set of opportunities for girls and young women. Unfortunately, the strength in the talent pipeline that we see in female soccer today is not the reality for technology. The U.S. is facing a shortage of Computer Science (CS) graduates. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, every year there are close to 140,000 jobs requiring a CS degree, but only 40,000 U.S. college graduates major in CS, which means that 100,000 positions go unfilled by domestic talent." Going with the soccer analogy, one thing FIFA realized that Microsoft didn't is that if you want girls to play your sport, you don't take away their ball!

18 of 212 comments (clear)

  1. Luckily you don't need just a CS degree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Some engineering degrees (Computer, Electrical), math degrees, etc. can be used in lieu of a CS degree provided you can prove you can code.

    This is all pandering to the need that companies HAVE to go get H1-B's, when the reality is no, there is PLENTY of local talent that can do these jobs.

    1. Re:Luckily you don't need just a CS degree by jedidiah · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not everyone in IT even needs a STEM degree. A lot of position are more about soft skills anyways. There are also people who thrive in tech positions without a STEM degree.

      I even know someone that managed to get promoted into IT off of a factory floor.

      This is more about the consequences of large corporations treating their employees like disposable cogs to be laid off by the "Two Bobs" guy during the next business lull. They are no longer wiling to invest in their own people, even the ones that have gone to great effort and expense to be desirable as new hires.

      You don't have to be terribly talented to be a tech worker in the large companies. Actually, it helps if you're not.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    2. Re:Luckily you don't need just a CS degree by pr0fessor · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Alright I have to say it... if there are 140k US jobs for CS each year in a decade that will be 1.4 million jobs and will employee over one third the entire population not the workforce which is smaller the population includes everyone. Anyone with a CS degree should be able to get great pay in their field since only 28% of new jobs will actually be filled, and that doesn't appear to be the case.

      No I think there is something funny with their claim.

  2. Subject by itamihn · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When I studied CS there were 5 women and 200 guys in my class. With that in mind, complaining about an IT company not hiring many woman is nonsense.

    1. Re:Subject by DrLang21 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This whole idea of looking at gender statistics and then deducing there is a problem is stupid.

      That part isn't stupid. What is stupid is deducing that the solution involves creating new incentives for young women to go into computer science. It's a far deeper cultural phenomenon*. People don't like to admit this though because addressing deep seeded cultural phenomena require generations to change. That's no good for politicians who can't see any further than the next election cycle or executives who can't even see further than the next annual earnings report.


      * Note I use the word "phenomenon" and not "problem". Whether or not any cultural phenomenon is a problem is besides the point.

      --
      I see the glass as full with a FoS of 2.
  3. Maybe women are smarter? by mileshigh · · Score: 3, Insightful

    As a tech marketing lady I met observed, the men make the stuff and the women sell it in our industry. She added "maybe that's because we're smarter about getting paid!"

    Might help if Microsoft, among others, stopped supporting increased tech H1-B quotas. They tend to depress wages and working conditions, making the "pipeline" we're trying to promote less attractive than, say, marketing. Or doctoring or lawyering. There are only so many really smart people to go around, so one profession's gain is another profession's loss. Design engineers seem to have plateaued around very roughly $100K. That's an OK living, but not exactly what I'd call professional earnings.

  4. Stop by Murdoch5 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So the argument is that because more women don't take Computer Science degrees that results in less women being hired, so don't take Computer Science away from them?

    Very few women actually enroll in Computer Science / Engineering Programs, as a result this means that the talent pool from which to hire from contains less females vs males. This doesn't mean that big commons don't want to hire women, it just means that there aren't a lot of qualified women pick from.

  5. Here's a bold idea... by supremebob · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Why don't you try offering them MORE MONEY, and watch the problem resolve itself! It might not be cool, but classic labor Economics still works in the 21st century.

    Of course, Microsoft (or any other big tech company) doesn't really have a reason to do that as long as they can get a bunch of cheap H1-B workers to fill the positions instead.

    1. Re:Here's a bold idea... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why don't you try offering them MORE MONEY

      Because gender discrimination in pay is illegal.

    2. Re:Here's a bold idea... by slimjim8094 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Two otherwise-identical people of different genders doing the same job are paid almost exactly the same, at least on a population level and with moderate-size or larger companies. To do otherwise is super-dangerous because it is an open-and-shut lawsuit and the information is all discoverable. (Of course individuals may have minor differences due to experience or negotiation at hiring, which generally goes away with tenure - if the company is smart.) You can look at any of the company stats of salaries for like-for-like positions and they're incredibly close to 100%.

      This is a fact and is true today. Look at it another way - if a company could get the same work for 77% of what they pay a man, wouldn't they far prefer to hire women? People in companies could be wildly sexist, but they'd fail - that's just too much money left on the table! The 77-cents-on-the-dollar thing is an absolute lie. I'd link to actual articles, but there's too many. It makes me so angry to hear otherwise-intelligent people (like the President!) repeat it - are they that cynical, or do they really not get it? (It's got to be the former - when someone pulled up the WH workforce stats, they were quick to reply that it wasn't fair to compare across titles and experience, which is exactly how the 77c number was fabricated.)

      So what's going on? Well, there is undoubtedly a motherhood gap, because mothers generally take time off to be with the new child, which puts them behind their non-childbearing peers of any gender. Some women, of course, don't ever come back, but are still included in the stats. Of those that do, well in some industries it's particularly difficult to take a leave of absence (for any reason) - academia and tech are prominent examples. If I as a man took 6+ months off to go hiking in Asia, I'd be in the same boat.

      This isn't that complicated. The question is, what do we want to do about it? Well, it's an unavoidable fact of taking time off. We can incentivize anybody who take time off for any reason by negating the setback with an opposite incentive - this seems highly risky and undesirable. Alternatively, because procreation is a societal good, we can incentivize specifically mothers in this fashion. I trust that women wouldn't just have kids to get this benefit, and who pays for it is an open question, but it still seems like a perverse incentive - and in any case it may not be legal to do this. Regardless, such a change should be an open debate - but trying to fix it by erasing the symptom of the 77c lie would just be sneaking through the back door.

      The only alternative I see is to accept that having kids is a life choice like any other, and it has downsides and upsides. The downsides are easier to measure, but maybe not important. I personally don't know many women, including my own very successful mother, whose joy about being a mother is tempered by "but it has reduced my lifetime earning potential by X%". People do things for reasons other than money.

      This whole thing smacks of the nasty phase of old-style feminism where women berated mothers for being unenlightened and choosing to have kids. I thought we were past that...

      --
      I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
  6. Statistics need verifying by Kohath · · Score: 2, Insightful

    every year there are close to 140,000 jobs requiring a CS degree, but only 40,000 U.S. college graduates major in CS, which means that 100,000 positions go unfilled by domestic talent

    Is this statistic really true? Are those 140,000 net new jobs, or just job openings that exist for some period of time during the year?

    The article cites but does not link to a source for this statistic.

    Also, a CS degree is a long, tough slog through dull material that has dubious relevance to most jobs that require a CS degree.

    1. Re:Statistics need verifying by tompaulco · · Score: 4, Insightful

      every year there are close to 140,000 jobs requiring a CS degree, but only 40,000 U.S. college graduates major in CS, which means that 100,000 positions go unfilled by domestic talent

      Is this statistic really true? Are those 140,000 net new jobs, or just job openings that exist for some period of time during the year?

      The article cites but does not link to a source for this statistic.

      Also, a CS degree is a long, tough slog through dull material that has dubious relevance to most jobs that require a CS degree.

      Those are 140,000 openings, so you don't necessarily need new graduates to fill them. You can fill them from other companies (which in theory leaves the same number of openings, but most companies don't fill voids, they just make the other people work harder), or you can fill them from unemployed CS people, of which there are tens of thousands, if not more. There are at least 6,000 more as of a week ago, when Microsoft, the company complaining about the worker shortage, fired 6,000 people.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
  7. again, /. mutilates the story with a bad title by Khashishi · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The story submitter and/or editors clearly had some agenda here in using a misleadingly suggestive title.

  8. Fortunately by tompaulco · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Fortunately, in technology as in soccer, nobody has taken away the ball, and the women that are interested in the field have just as much if not more opportunity than males to learn, study and pursue a career in Computer Science, and the whole article is bullcrap.

    --
    If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
  9. No one cares by Karmashock · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Enough of the gender/race baiting nonsense.

    --
    I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
  10. Bad calculation by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "every year there are close to 140,000 jobs requiring a CS degree, but only 40,000 U.S. college graduates major in CS, which means that 100,000 positions go unfilled by domestic talent."

    And this would be a logical inference if the only people looking for jobs were that year's college graduates.

    But, actually, very few job openings are filled by fresh-outs.

    Conclusion: mIsleading and false.

    --
    http://www.geoffreylandis.com
  11. The question needs to be asked... by bmo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Why would anybody, in their right mind, get a CS or IT degree if they knew how shitty the environment was?

    Microsoft and every other tech company: We want talent, but we don't want to pay for it. Give us more H1-B workers to cut the average salary, please.

    Game corps: We slave-drive our workers, because it's better to take young talent and burn them out so they leave before they get too expensive. Which is why we're always re-inventing wheels.

    IT: Dealing with really ungrateful idiots every day, all week, all year. The higher-up the chain, the stupider (with tech) they are.

    Why would anyone, male or female, bother to get into this?

    Fuck it. Play soccer.

    --
    BMO

  12. Re:Interesting.. by davester666 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, every year there are close to 140,000 jobs requiring a CS degree, but only 40,000 U.S. college graduates major in CS, which means that 100,000 positions go unfilled by domestic talent."

    Of course, there are not 140,000 new jobs. There are a whole bunch of layoff's, office closures that puts a bunch of programmers out of work [like, say, Microsoft did not too long ago].

    There are a whole bunch of already-graduated programmers that are explicitly rejected from these 'new jobs' because they can't afford to work cheap enough.

    H1B's to the rescue!

    --
    Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!