Mozilla CEO: Windows 10 Strips User Choice For Browsers and Other Software

puddingebola writes: Mozilla CEO Chris Beard has sent an open letter to Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella complaining about the default settings in Windows 10. Users who upgrade to 10 will have their default browser automatically changed to the new Edge browser. Beard said, "We appreciate that it’s still technically possible to preserve people’s previous settings and defaults, but the design of the whole upgrade experience and the default settings APIs have been changed to make this less obvious and more difficult. It now takes more than twice the number of mouse clicks, scrolling through content and some technical sophistication for people to reassert the choices they had previously made in earlier versions of Windows. It’s confusing, hard to navigate and easy to get lost. ... We strongly urge you to reconsider your business tactic here and again respect people’s right to choice and control of their online experience by making it easier, more obvious and intuitive for people to maintain the choices they have already made through the upgrade experience.

Comments

If you think Windows is bad

[NotDrWho]

Try using a non-Safari-based browser in iOS

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Karlt1]

Or try using a non-Firefox browser with the Firefox OS.
Or try using a non-Chrome browser with the Chrome OS.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Guspaz]

It's the javascript engine that's the problem, not the rest of it. Opera on iOS, for example does not use WebKit, or at least it doesn't in turbo mode. They do the javascript execution on the server side and feed you the results. The downside is lower compatibility, the upside is it can be MUCH faster when you're on a really slow or shoddy connection.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Penguinisto]

Pretty much this. GP forgot that mobile !=desktop, and Firefox/Mozilla was complaining about the desktop restrictions.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[DrXym]

It's Apple's stupid protectionist policies that are the problem.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[hydrofix]

I think it's the very goal of Microsoft to blur the line between "desktop" and "mobile". Case and point: Windows Store (which will now be a much more prominent part of the OS) uses the same kind of app permission and sandboxing model as Android and iOS.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[rubycodez]

funny, plenty of those 'fat americans' use that linux distro known as "Android" without problem

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Coren22]

Despite it being very easy, not every person who owns a car knows how to change the oil, change a tire, or replace brake pads. Not every computer user knows how computers work, and I would suspect that many people who drive cars consider internal combustion to be a black box process.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[ADRA]

Its almost like... in those cases the OS is a specially crafted web browsing tool instead of a GENERAL PURPOSE operating system.

Nobody's assuming that a phone / tablet / netbook have unlimited control (though it is nice when given), but for a general purpose OS, you expect fluidity. I guess some of the big shifts in Windows since 8 (maybe earlier, but in much smaller doses) has been their ham-strung proprietary and irreplacible components that lock down more and more of the OS. This may well be my last Windows if Linux Gaming becomes more of a thing. If the last couple years' growth has been any indication, it looks like a real possibility now.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Or try using a non-Firefox browser with the Firefox OS.
Or try using a non-Chrome browser with the Chrome OS.

Point of clarification. 99.999% of Chrome/Firefox OS users voluntarily chose that OS to get the fuck away from IE/Microsoft and prefer the browser that comes with it.

I thought that was rather obvious to most.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[rubycodez]

Sorry but UNIX with all caps is the trademark, while many non-certified systems are Unix. For example OpenBSD and DragonFly are BSD Unix (and many would argue of higher quality and security than the certified UNIX(tm) systems)

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[rubycodez]

Nope, in fact it is the opposite situation. OS X has the BSD userland

But a Linux distro only need have the Linux kernel, period

Android is a Linux, deal with it

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[operagost]

It was those fat French* who demanded that Microsoft deliver an OS without a web browser at all, wasn't it?

* I'll assume Gerard Depardieu represents all French people, just like McDonalds represents all American cuisine and heavy drinking represents all Irish.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[dunkelfalke]

Depardieu is Russian now, so you are barking up the wrong tree.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[ConceptJunkie]

So supposably, for all intensive purposes, he meant "case in point", right?

Here, here.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[KGIII]

Nobody's assuming that a phone / tablet / netbook have unlimited control (though it is nice when given) ...

Like hell I am not. I expect full control of a tablet and a netbook. What is up with you people relinquishing control???

IE all over again

[gstoddart]

So basically they're doing the same thing with Windows 10 as they did originally with IE? Making it part of the OS and claiming it can't be removed?

Sorry, Microsoft ... but everything I hear about Windows 10 is making me say "fuck you, I'll stick with my Windows 8.1".

When will Microsoft realize we own the computers, we are ultimately the ones who make decisions about the computers, and they simply can't dictate to us what software is on our computers and how we use it.

And, like every other Microsoft product, I'm sure this new hotness is riddled with security holes an defects for their users to have to deal with.

But don't worry, because they'll update the OS as they see fit, and if they break it, that's your problem ... says it right there in the EULA.

Keep alienating your customers, see how that works out for you. You might even find the DoJ knocking at your door if they ever grow a pair and stop doing whatever industry demands of them.

Re:IE all over again

[squiggleslash]

I don't think anything's changed about the degree to which IE or NewIE is part of the OS since Windows 7. What's changed is that browsers can't set themselves to be the default any more - the user has to do it explicitly in the system settings.

Personally, I thought the Windows 8.1 way of doing it was better. But I don't think this is as terrible a change as being suggested.

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

"fuck you, I'll stick with my Windows 8.1". ----- giahwaaaht?

I like MS but not their new stuff? I brain froze on the rest of what you had to say...

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, Microsoft ... but everything I hear about Windows 10 is making me say "fuck you, I'll stick with my Windows 8.1".

That should be "I'll stick with my Windows 7", just like "I'll stick with my Windows XP".

Saying, "I'll stick with my Windows 8.1" is like saying, "I'll stick with my Windows Vista".

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

So basically they're doing the same thing with Windows 10 as they did originally with IE?

No, basically Mozilla is bitching that Windows 10 has default settings, and people might not change it to the ones they want.

When will Microsoft realize we own the computers, we are ultimately the ones who make decisions about the computers, and they simply can't dictate to us what software is on our computers and how we use it.

Nothing is stopping you from setting any browser you want as a default, or installing any legitimate software you want. Hopefully something is stopping illegitimate software from being installed without your permission though.

You might even find the DoJ knocking at your door if they ever grow a pair and stop doing whatever industry demands of them.

If the DOJ is going to go after criminals in industry, there are a lot better choices than this phantom hysterical one.

Re:IE all over again

[Latentius]

Microsoft's obligations in the US case ended in 2007, and they were willing to extend the terms of their settlement until 2012. They're not legally required to do anything anymore. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:IE all over again

[squiggleslash]

I don't think so, browsers have always, until now, been able to set themselves as default, even back during the Netscape wars.

And they're not asserting ownership of your computer. What they've done is created a hamfisted (and biased towards Microsoft - yeah, I don't like it either) interface that replaces third parties modifying your computer with or without your consent. They had a better system in Windows 8.1, and should revert to that, but nonetheless, I don't actually like the idea of a browser being able to set itself up as default. I prefer myself to make that decision. Fortunately, the mainstream browsers have, until now, always at least asked for permission before changing the defaults, but that's not something they should have been allowed to do to begin with.

If we want this changed, we need to be a little less hyperbolic, because the issue here is that the new change isn't user friendly and is biased towards Microsoft, not ludicrous claims that Microsoft is taking control of your PC in some way it wasn't before. If you complain about the latter, expect your ticket to be closed with a "INVALID. Not actually a description of a real problem."

Re:IE all over again

[MightyMartian]

When I upgraded to Windows 10 yesterday, there was a screen that came up that asked me if I wanted to reset the default apps. I said no for my browser and media player, and when it completed, Chrome and VLC were still the default applications. I think it's a little underhanded, but not as underhanded as the article suggests.

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

>> So basically they're doing the same thing with Windows 10 as they did originally with IE?

> No, basically Mozilla is bitching that Windows 10 has default settings, and people might not change it to the ones they want.

No, Mozilla is complaining that if you have already changed your defaults, when you upgrade to Windows 10, it changes those defaults back.

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Psychopath]

Launching another browser presents the usual "do you want me to be default" dialog. It's completely trivial to change your browser preference. Yes, I would have preferred if Microsoft had left my browser preferences alone with the upgrade, but this is blown a bit out of proportion.

It's also a bit disingenuous to compare today's situation to the Internet Explorer case that's literally 20 years old. I find it improbable to believe that anyone using Windows 10 is unaware of alternative browsers availability.

Re:IE all over again

[Shakrai]

When I upgraded to Windows 10 yesterday, there was a screen that came up that asked me if I wanted to reset the default apps. I said no for my browser and media player, and when it completed, Chrome and VLC were still the default applications. I think it's a little underhanded, but not as underhanded as the article suggests.

Mozilla is whining anyway; when they switched search providers from Google to Yahoo I had to go through and specify it on EVERY INSTANCE of Firefox I have. Since I use --no-remote and segment my web browsing this was actually a royal pain in the ass. Granted, Google was the old "default," so I had never changed it, but it was still an undesired change in behavior. If they're going to whine about Microsoft doing the same thing then they ought to look at their own behavior.

Firefox is still my browser of choice for personal use but for others I've started to recommend Chrome. It's just less hassle to support it for your luser friends. The future of Firefox and Mozilla is not an encouraging one, which is a pity.

Re:IE all over again

[chmod a x mojo]

Nope.

Apparently it's too hard for a CEO to parse the upgrade page where it asks "Do you want to use the windows defaults or your old defaults for opening programs?". I wasn't paying the most attention to the part after, but I vaguely recall maybe even a mini tutorial on rightclick > open with > set as default from the list after clicking OK from the keep my default settings page.

Not saying there is nothing wrong with Windows 10, the start menu for instance is NOT worth a shit.... it is just a list in alphabetical order of programs with no sane grouping. Thankfully classic shell has a build that works with 10. Other than the one 8.1 laptop I upgraded I think I will keep my win7 machines for a while.

Re:IE all over again

[CastrTroy]

I actually really like the way they implemented it in Window 10. As far as I can tell, It's no longer possible for the browser to change the default browser for you. They can bring up the screen to change the option, but the user has to change the option themselves. This is much better than the old functionality where applications would constantly be setting themselves as the default application either with no warning or with a simple yes/no dialog. Making it take more clicks is a good thing.

Re:IE all over again

[The-Ixian]

Yeah, I agree. I think this issue is a little overrated.

When I installed FF on Windows 10, it was slightly more difficult to make it my default browser, in that I had to click maybe 3 times instead of only 1 or 2 times as I would have on Windows 7.

The way it looks to me, MS is trying to make it harder for hijackers to silently take your defaults.

Re:IE all over again

[Flavianoep]

Does people still think of choosing Linux because of the annoyances from Windows? I mean, many people prefer Linux --- and I only use Windows when I am forced to ---, but I think any Linux user must have their own reasons for that, which must be beyond avoiding Windows' handicaps.

Re:IE all over again

[tlhIngan]

Wasn't the ability for other browsers to set themselves as the default browser part of the DoJ settlement? So now Microsoft is deciding that doesn't apply?

Sorry, but Microsoft has gone well into the "we can do anything we want to your computer, any time we want, and unless you have an enterprise license you can't stop us".

That is complete bullshit. If they're going to assert ownership of my computer, they can help me pay for it. Until they do, it's my computer.

Here's the problem - Firefox/Chrome/etc ask you if you want them to be the default browser. The ability for the program to set the preference is the problem.

If you don't see the problem, let me rephrase it. I create SuperWebBrowser. I think it's so super, I will make it the default browser on everyone's machine. So I do that. Why should I ask the user? It's so super they'll want it.

If you still don't get it, then how about, I create WebBrowserSpy and set it as default. It launches an instance of your normal web browser but hooked so it can spy at your traffic and even get at HTTPS data after it's been decrypted.

Just because the good guys ask, doesn't mean everyone else has to. In fact, if you're particularly nasty, if that setting is changed, you can always reset it back.

And you'll be surprised, but both scenarios are common - many management types can't understand that people might just want to use your software as necessary, and they don't need or want it to be the default shell, the default web browser, to pin itself to the task bar and start menu and all sorts of other things. After all, after buying a copy of SuperApplication, why wouldn't you want it in your face everywhere you look? I mean, it's a great application.

It's why Microsoft doesn't provide APIs to pin applications to the task bar, start menu and a few other things. Heck, I'm surprised no installer decides to go change your desktop wallpaper on you after you install an app. After all, it's super, and you'll not want to live without it...

Re:IE all over again

[raftpeople]

Ya, once you revert 8 back to working just like 7, it's much better than 7, in fact it's one better.

Re:IE all over again

[lgw]

I'm pretty sure this was arrogance, but not malice, on MS's part: they really want to shift the IE userbase to Edge and drop IE support in some future release. Can you blame them? But in their arrogance they didn't remember (or didn't care) that quite a large portion of Windows users don't run IE in the first place.

Re:IE all over again

[EvilSS]

I agree that this is a good change for users. And when you go to change the setting from a 3rd party browser, it even pops up a message telling you where to go to make the change (it should just pop up the default programs applet but still).

My personal issue with all this is that when you upgrade a machine to Windows 10, it resets the default browser to Microsoft Edge instead of migrating the existing setting from the old OS. It migrates tons of other settings, so there is no technical reason they could not do this too. At least it does if you chose the express install (haven't tried it out with custom yet, just playing with some VMs at the moment). Express is what 99% of people will choose of course, and they know that.

Re:IE all over again

[meerling]

Lets see... Your other browsers are STILL THERE, and if you open one of them, it will ask you if you want to make it your default browser.
Real freaking difficult.
On the other hand, it's not MSs responsibility to ensure that old versions of other peoples software is compliant with their new OS, so yes, it makes sense to have upgrades change the default to one they know will work. That way the users that prefer the other browsers can use the default one to download a new version of the one they prefer, even if their old version of it doesn't freaking work properly in the new OS.

There is nothing stopping you from easily changing the default, and there are reasons why an OS upgrade shouldn't leave the pre-upgrade default on an unverified 3rd party software. Don't like it, then welcome to the reality of having to cater to millions of virtual computer illiterates that will panic and freak if the slightest thing goes wrong. You are just a footnote of annoyance vs a possible flood of pissed off users.

I can complain about MS as much or more than virtually anyone that's sane, but look at the big picture rather than your own little reflection. If you want to complain, make it about something that is unreasonable, or just plain broken or F'd up. (There's lots of that out there. I'll give you one hint, don't do the express install, use the other one where you can pick what some of the defaults will be, you'll be shocked.)

Re:IE all over again

[myowntrueself]

When will Microsoft realize we own the computers, we are ultimately the ones who make decisions about the computers

Did you never wonder who the 'My' in 'My Computer' is referring?

Heres a hint; its not you.

Heres another hint; it originally meant "My, Bill Gates's, Computer

Oh the irony!

[Anonymous Coward]

Lemme repost directly from HN for convenience:

Animats 16 hours ago

I am writing to you about a very disturbing aspect of Firefox 38.0.5. Specifically, that the update experience appears to have been designed to throw away the choice your customers have made about the Internet experience they want, and replace it with the Internet experience Mozilla wants them to have.

When we first saw the Firefox upgrade experience that strips users of their choice by effectively overriding existing user preferences for the search engine and other apps, and forces the integration of Pocket and Sync, we reached out to your team to discuss this issue. Unfortunately, it didn’t result in any meaningful progress, hence this letter.

We appreciate that it’s still technically possible to preserve people’s previous settings and defaults, but the design of the whole upgrade experience and the default settings APIs have been changed to make this less obvious and more difficult. It now takes more than twice the number of mouse clicks, scrolling through content and some technical sophistication for people to reassert the choices they had previously made in earlier versions of Firefox. It’s confusing, hard to navigate and easy to get lost.

Sometimes we see great progress, where consumer products respect individuals and their choices. However, with the launch of Firefox 38.0.5 we are deeply disappointed to see Mozilla take such a dramatic step backwards.

These changes are unsettling because there are millions of users who love Firefox and who are having their choices ignored, and because of the increased complexity put into everyone’s way if and when they choose to make a choice different than what Mozilla prefers.

We strongly urge you to reconsider your business tactic here and again respect people’s right to choice and control of their online experience by making it easier, more obvious and intuitive for people to maintain the choices they have already made through the upgrade experience. It should be easier for people to assert new choices and preferences, not just for other Mozilla products, through the default settings APIs and user interfaces.

Please give your users the choice and control they deserve in Firefox.

Re:Oh the irony!

[jez9999]

Yeah quite. This is rich coming from Mozilla. "Removing user choice" has pretty much been their UX team's modus operandi for years now (and telling users they never really wanted that choice anyway; they wanted Chrome). Now they go whining to Microsoft about a lack of user choice? Go fuck yourselves, Mozilla. Only Pale Moon gives a shit about what you guys used to.

European Union

[DanJ_UK]

Ha, the EU will be all over this. Microsoft were supposedly turning themselves around, not opening themselves up for more fines from EU courts.

Mozilla had better gear up...

[QuietLagoon]

Mozilla will be facing the Take Back The Web battle with Microsoft once again, though this time it will be a bloated Firefox vs. a newly aggressive Microsoft.

.
Microsoft has caught the smell of Firefox's current weakness and is exploiting it.

What to watch: will Firefox's marketshare drop to the point where Firefox no longer has any impetus in pushing for, or moving towards, new web standards? A browser's marketshare needs to be over 20% (some say, well over 20%) for the browser to have that amount of gravitas.

Perhaps this default settings quarrel is Microsoft trying to grab a lump of marketshare for Edge, giving Edge a big boost towards that 25% mark and cementing Edge as a replacement for Firefox in setting web standards.

EU Antitrust

[TerryC101]

Anybody else see a big fine for Microsoft on the horizon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Pot Meet Black Kettle

[Anonymous Coward]

Just like how a semi-recent firefox update forced a new search engine on users by changing my long accepted default. The irony is delicious!

Mozilla lies.

[Coren22]

-5 troll article here.

I just installed Windows 10 last night. After the install was complete and you log in the first time, it asks you which of the installed browsers you would like to use. It still had Chrome, I selected it and it has since used it.

Does Mozilla want theirs to be at the top of the list? Do they expect that Windows 10 will carry over every setting from 7, 8, and 8.1?

Did the Mozilla CEO even try to install Windows 10 before firing off a message complaining?

Re:Mozilla lies.

[ProzacPatient]

When I upgraded from 8.1 Pro to 10 Pro all my custom default apps were replaced with Microsoft apps including the browser which got changed from Firefox to Edge.

Re:Mozilla lies.

[ADRA]

Well, I installed a Windows 10 (preview) from scratch and installed firefox/chome. Both asked me to make it default, both got a windows prompt telling me the program wanted to be default, and both times I clicked yes. Default browser after this: The microsoft one. The only thing I could do to change the default was to specifically go to the default applications settings panel and update them specifically to use chome/firefox.

Now mind you, this was a recent pre RTM version so I can't say specifically if that was fixed in final, but if not, I imagine this can be quite miffing.

Re:Mozilla lies.

[Coren22]

AC has your answer. The Express install changes the defaults, as it redefaults many settings. If you do Custom, it asks after the first login.

Pot meet Kettle

[jenningsthecat]

FTS: "We strongly urge you to reconsider your business tactic here and again respect people’s right to choice and control of their online experience by making it easier, more obvious and intuitive for people to maintain the choices they have already made through the upgrade experience.

Oh... you mean the way you guys did when you both inflicted Australis on the world and changed the default search engine to Yahoo?

Bad summary and/or FUD

[Vyse of Arcadia]

Users who upgrade to 10 will have their default browser automatically changed to the new Edge browser

No they won't. It popped up a screen that asked me if I wanted to change my defaults for four common tasks to the new Win10 apps for those tasks. Photos, videos, music, and browser. I clicked no on each, and my old defaults carried over.

Not lock down, "cash in!"

[s.petry]

I remember reading an article several years ago which covered some internal leaked MS memos. In essence it said that MS was going to monetize every component of an OS, including hardware access. Have a high end graphics card? Want graphics acceleration in a game? Pay the subscription rate for DirectX. Want an update, pay the subscription rate for the portion of the OS you want to update. Have 2x8 core CPUs and want to use them? That is an extra fee. Have memory you want to use? Past a certain point it costs money, even if you have the hardware installed. The leaks wanted to go back to a full blown Windows95 like treadmill system, but instead of shaking down other companies for money they shake down end users (mostly due to the monopoly and lack of competition, they can't shake down Bordland and Novell any longer..)

The difference between the current trend and the leaks is that in the leaks, MS wanted to have the majority of the OS download at system boot time.

That same article may have had some influence on the Steam on Linux project, I forget now...

Re: Not lock down, "cash in!"

[s.petry]

Garbage as in Microsoft? You surely can't be claiming that internal leaks are garbage, especially since they have already started their attempt to "cash in" on some of what those memos discussed.

You also can't be claiming that history is garbage. MS was found to treadmill from Win3.11-98B, that is factual. Applications like Netscape and Bordland Compilers received scarce resources and would randomly be crashed by the Kernel. Binaries with a Microsoft copyright header received favorable resource allocation.

Oh, I get it. You claim paranoia hoping that people are stupid enough to ignore reality. The NSA does not spy on US citizens, the US Defense system does not commit war crimes or torture people, and of course all of our politicians are honest, and Microsoft really has the consumer's best interests in mind. Isn't that right shill?

Microsoft against the common good.

[Futurepower(R)]

Leaked memos from Microsoft:

"The Halloween documents comprise a series of confidential Microsoft memoranda against open-source software".