Broken Windows 10 Update Causes Reboot Loops For Some Users

An anonymous reader writes: The Guardian reports that some early adopters of Windows 10 are finding their computers stuck in a reboot loop after installing a particular update. KB3081424 is a cumulative update, packaging together a group of smaller ones for ease of installation. For some users, the update continually fails to finish installing before issuing a reboot command to the PC. "It downloads, reboot to install. Gets to 30% and reboots. Gets to 59% and reboots. Gets to 59% again and then states something went wrong so uninstalling the update. Wait a few minutes and reboot. Back to login screen," said Microsoft forum user BrettDM. "This happens without fail, every single time."

Comments

No problems here

[Anonymous Coward]

What reboo..........

No problems for me

[WoodburyMan]

I have 10 Pro on my own work laptop, personal desktop, and set it up on two systems over the week after and installed this patch no issue. Small data set, but no problems for me. Two were upgrades, two were fresh installs.

Re:No problems for me

[jones_supa]

The headline clearly says that the problem only affects some users.

Re:No problems for me

[Macthorpe]

It's probably because they fixed it between the Guardian reporting it and Slashdot finally getting around to posting about it.

http://www.techradar.com/news/...

Re:No problems for me

[WoodburyMan]

"Idiot"? I really don't get the hostility? Honestly I was just saying I didn't have the issue on 4 systems. Nothing more. Nothing less. I don't understand how everyone on this entire thread thinks I'm denying the issue and acting hostile towards me. I rarely comment on /, and this is why. Seems everyone bought a jump to conclusions mat.

Re:No problems for me

[rtb61]

The problem here is mandatory updates and inexperienced users. So what you are basically saying is screw you some inexperienced users, you can pay a professional more than the cost of the operating system to fix a problem caused by a failure in the updating of that operating system. Your response is akin to screw you jack it works fine for me. The general slashdot response is hold on a second there partner if you are going to do compulsory upgrades, then you had better make sure they work 100% of the time, else pay the consumers cost of fixing any problems caused by compulsory upgrades, this includes the cost of more skilled users fixing the problem themselves.

Re:No problems for me

[macs4all]

It'd be real nice if Microsoft paid more attention to isolating software components from the core OS.

I thought that's what the HAL (Hardware Abstraction Layer), part of NT/XP/Vista/Windows 7-10 since I don't know when, was for.

I also thought that NT (like NextStep) was designed to be hardware-agnostic from the ground up. Heck, there was even an (unreleased?) version of NT for PowerPC (and I think they had it running on PowerMac 6100s, too).

Re:No problems for me

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Unfortunately, the other major desktop operating systems are almost as bad, just maybe in slightly different ways. Typical Linux distros provide no security or robustness at all when it comes to installing/upgrading/uninstalling anything that isn't part of the distro itself -- they can drop their junk anywhere, and many packages do -- and upgrading your distro is a brave thing to do on any system you rely on. OS X has similar problems. As long as these *nix systems are still based on the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard and traditional user/group/others access control model, and as long as programs can dump their executables and configuration and documents wherever they feel like, and as long as those programs can freely access each other's data, all these platforms will be limited in how much they can improve on today's standards.

Re:No problems for me

[im_thatoneguy]

Inexperienced users wouldn't know to skip a bad update. Inexperienced users wouldn't know how to install a critical update. Inexperienced users are screwed no matter what. If they're going to get screwed they might as well get screwed by maybe being .1% of users who get bricked vs the 50% of users who end up as a bot farm.

Re:No problems for me

[dryeo]

NT was designed to be hardware agnostic with just needing an updated HAL to be ported to another architecture and there has been NT ports for a few architectures. The problem is that MS started moving parts of Windows into kernel space, eg the video driver with NT4 for speed. I'm not sure what the current status is but every time someone talks about bluescreens (or the reboot that replaced it), someone else claims it's hardware or hardware drivers so some stuff must be in kernel space. Really it would take a proper micro-kernel to completely avoid the issue as far as I understand it and even the above is just my understanding.

Re:No problems for me

[KGIII]

Nah, I expect them to take the time to learn to fix their computers. This is 2015, it is about time to learn how to drive even if you're really very good at snapping the buggy whip. Google is close and even Bing will lend a helping hand.

Forced Updates-- What could POSSIBLY go wrong?

[Falconnan]

No update cycle is perfect. Problems happen. But being unable to refuse an update, or roll it back, etc., is a recipe for problems galore. The wise thing for Microsoft would be to establish four basic categories of update: Security, Important, Optional, and Driver. Security updates being mandatory makes sense given the general user's overall lack of understanding. Important could be major bug fixes, feature repair, that kind of thing. Drivers should be given a warning label and made completely optional and non-automatic. Optional is optional. "We want a unified support environment" does not help the end user who cannot do his/her homework.

Re:Forced Updates-- What could POSSIBLY go wrong?

[drinkypoo]

No update cycle is perfect. Problems happen. But being unable to refuse an update, or roll it back, etc., is a recipe for problems galore.

You can do all of those things, although the means are extremely non-obvious.

Re:Forced Updates-- What could POSSIBLY go wrong?

[gstoddart]

This is more about making life easier for Microsoft than it is about giving a damn about users.

When I forcibly uninstalled the update to Windows 8.1 which started pushing Windows 10 at me, one of the things it said it was doing was adding a piece to monitor and evaluate how well system updates are going. Basically gather metrics on how bad they're doing.

Microsoft has decided that it's their computer, that if they feel an update needs to be applied they will, and that if it breaks for some users that's an unfortunate side effect of having your customers doing your beta testing ... but thanks for doing our beta testing.

The trend with computers and electronic devices is for the license to say "you don't own this, and you don't get a say in what we do to it". And people are going to start pushing back when they suddenly find themselves with a broken computer because Microsoft forced an update on them.

Microsoft isn't going to pay to fix it, they're not going to pay for the loss of productivity. They're simply going to say "bummer", and keep doing it.

Which if you or I did that we'd be charged criminally under the computer fraud and abuse act or something similar.

But they have an EULA which says they're allowed to.

Re:Forced Updates-- What could POSSIBLY go wrong?

[Falconnan]

True, but that "non-obvious" part is the problem. It should be obvious, clearly labelled, and functional. The fact I can edit the registry and not nuke a computer is great. My father or uncle on the other hand... Just lots of "no". Though, really, I suppose I should thank Microsoft for the job security.

Re:Forced Updates-- What could POSSIBLY go wrong?

[drinkypoo]

Actually they disabled the registry tweak in RTM, but you can either disable the service or use the group policy editor to restore the option to prompt you before updates, and the tool which hides driver updates can actually be used to hide any windows update.

I think it's a bit shameful that you have to do anything but click a couple of times to make the system prompt you before installing updates. I want to review them every time, and that should be the default. People should be encouraged to actually read the patch summaries by making that a one-click, like it has been, and the full description with one more click, like it has been.

Re:Forced Updates-- What could POSSIBLY go wrong?

[Culture20]

Reading the patch summaries would be nice if most of them weren't a minor variation of "Fixes an issue with Windows on some computers". That's a pretty useless summary.

Re:Forced Updates-- What could POSSIBLY go wrong?

[Culture20]

That's like a movie summary of "contains frames that when viewed quickly give the illusion of motion". Of course a patch for Windows "fixes issues with Windows for some computers", but that's not a summary of what the patch does. "fixes XYZ problem with Windows ABC program when users perform a 123 action."

Re:Forced Updates-- What could POSSIBLY go wrong?

[ShaunC]

I'm sick and tired of seeing that a new version of an app is available, and the sole contents of what the update changes is "bug fixes."

Well if they were honest and said "Fixed more edge cases where ads weren't displaying" or "Increased the frequency of GPS coordinate tracking," nobody would install the update...

BIOS Update

[Anonymous Coward]

Had this happen when installing. Probably the same issue - Turned out I had to update the BIOS so that the Intel CPU was trusted. Now everything is smoove.

Also on Windows 7 - Anyone else having issues?

[Errorcod3]

I had just installed an update for windows 7 on Sunday that did not work and my computer kept restarting, finally had to do a recovery to get the machine back working again.
I have had an unusual amount of issues with windows updates this year.

Re:Also on Windows 7 - Anyone else having issues?

[RogueyWon]

There have been any number of problems on Windows 7 in the last couple of months. In particular, KB3035583 (the update that pushes out the "upgrade to Windows 10" button and background-installer) has been causing a lot of issues for some users. In some cases, it's leading to Windows Update and the associated services going crazy in terms of CPU load and HDD access for 30+ minutes after booting. In other cases, it's even being linked to corrupted system files.

That's the most serious one I'm aware of at the moment, but there have been a good number of other horrors since the start of 2015, inflicting anything from infinite-reboot-loops to corrupted video playback on users unlucky enough to have the wrong hardware/software combinations.

MS's update testing seems to have gone to hell lately. In many respects, I am quite tempted by the free update to Win 10 Pro I'm eligible for, but the mandatory updates thing (even if Pro lets you defer them for a while) is putting me off. The fact that they stagger how long you can put off the upgrade based on whether you are Enterprise, Pro, Home or "amnesty" (the less favoured you are, the shorter the time you can delay updates) seems a pretty clear indication that MS now sees its customers as beta testers.

Re:Also on Windows 7 - Anyone else having issues?

[Somebody Is Using My]

You can use gpedit.msc to restore the option to verify before installing updates.

Do the Home versions of Windows10 come with GPEdit.msc? I know that - starting with Windows Vista - the Group Policy Editor (GPEdit.msc) was a feature reserved for the "enterprise" editions only (Pro, Ultimate) and was not included in the Home or Starter editions of the OS. Nominally this was acceptable because Home users have no use for domain-level tools such as a group policy, but unfortunately many Windows features can only be toggled with GPEDit.msc, including several Home users might have interest in.

Nominally there is nothing GPEdit.msc can do that can't be replicated through manual registry editing, but there is no readily available source mapping registry keys and strings to each of the GPEdit options (I am also not aware of any non-Microsoft alternative to GPEdit.msc, although there are hacks to transfer GPEdit.msc from the enterprise editions to the consumer editions).

Since Windows 10 Professional already has the option to disable updates, it is disingenuous to suggest GPEdit.msc as an alternative as an alternative unless that tool is included with the Home Edition.

What reboot loop?

[Macthorpe]

This happened yesterday and was fixed within 24 hours. Good work, Slashdot.

Re:What reboot loop?

[Archangel Michael]

Its not a reboot loop if it recovers. It recovers. It reboots a lot, but it isn't a loop.

From what I've experienced, Win10 has issues with people who have migrated from a standard HD to an SSD using a migration tool. Since this has been fairly common over the last couple years, I suspect that this is the bulk of the "reboot loop" you're seeing. The problem IMHO are the people who have seen the reboot, haven't researched the causes, and are left scratching their heads.

The trick for MS is to quickly identify these machines, offer an upgrade path that is outside their norms (clean install*). Because short of that, these people will not be able to upgrade to Win10 smoothly, ever.

*Clean install is possible once you have already done the update, because during the update a new KEY is generated, unique to the machine, stored in MS servers. However, you cannot do a clean install, without having already "upgraded" because there is no KEY generated.

It fixes itself?

[BenJeremy]

Ideally not a true fix, but a workaround, at least.

At least it doesn't render the users' computers inoperable.

I got the update just fine... but the Start Menu Item limitation (512 menu items max) is still not fixed with this update.

Also, the Store and "Movies & TV" windows keep popping up randomly (I believe when I watch something with media player). Very annoying.

One more thing... why the heck is the titlebar/menu coloring a hot mess? All white? There is a theme out there called "colors" that kinda-sorta fixes the issue, but it won't stick the accent color I assigned. At least it makes the desktop less visually messy. It seems that every iteration of Windows has given users fewer and fewer options to change colors and details of the user interface... while making the supplied themes progressively worse. I should be able to make Windows 10 look like XP, if I want to (I don't want to, really).

For the most part, Windows 10 is fine... but annoying leftovers from Windows 8 and this interminable menu limitation is driving me nuts.

Re:It fixes itself?

[aaron4801]

I do the same thing. People at work ask me all the time where I got a copy of Win2K. This is a business machine, I don't need a neon-colored taskbar, a bunch of slow/pointless animations or unnecessarily massive UI elements (window borders, scrollbars, etc). The last 10-15 years have seen a huge jump in display technologies, but MS seems to be tailoring every new version of Windows to smaller screens with worse resolutions. I've got dual 32" displays; I don't need the same UI as somebody using their fat fingers on a 10" tablet.

Re:It fixes itself?

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with you completely. I hung on to 2000 for as long as I could. I have grudgingly updated to XP and Win7 as necessary. Nothing specifically wrong with XP or 7 to make me resistant to upgrading to them... But there was nothing wrong with 2000 that made me interested in upgrading away from it. The UI was clean, familiar, and non-obtrusive. Every single version of Windows since it has struck me as a step backwards in terms of usability.

Really the thing that needs to happen is that Microsoft needs to wake up and realize that nobody cares about the operating system. The only time anyone pays attention to it is when it is being annoying. If someone is talking about your OS, chances are you did something wrong. The purpose of the OS is to get me to my applications and get the heck out of my way. Every version of Windows since 2000 has added more and more unnecessary garbage that gets in my way. 8 was easily the worst.. Nice to see 10 step back a bit from it, but it still has a long ways to go. I have 10 on a spare laptop for farting around on during meetings and it is okay. Although yesterday the thing popped up an advertisement for a 30 day trail of O365. My OS is interrupting me for an advertisement?! Oh hell no.

Re:better wait

[Chrisq]

thats why I am still waiting three months before installin ... let them go through all the frustrating hassles for me

My computer will be on the 130,000 th reboot by then you insensitive clod

The biggest problem with windows

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that it reboots all the time, and you can't stop it, only delay it (and if you're not on your computer 24/7, eventually you'll miss the delay prompt and it will just reboot). I'm obsessive with saving (if there's one thing Windows has taught me, it's to hit control+s after every sentence in a document or email) so I haven't lost work, but countless coworkers have. Yet, they still always have excuses when I offer to install Linux on their computers.

Re:The biggest problem with windows

[Anonymous Coward]

Yet, they still always have excuses when I offer to install Linux on their computers.

Could it be because Linux has even more weird breakage.

Re: The biggest problem with windows

[Anonymous Coward]

Some of the reasons are valid, like one of my coworkers who I know writes music and needs specific music software only for windows (maybe Mac too). But most cases, it's bogus reasoning like the kind Microsoft spreads, laziness, being afraid of something new, outdated fears that Linux requires the command line, etc. I've never heard them mention anything about Linux breakage, but maybe that's because they won't even say that when their excuse is something stupid like "Linux is free? It can't be good."

Re: The biggest problem with windows

[Anonymous Coward]

I would love to have this wonderful experience of Linux desktop computing I read about on the internet. Trouble is it doesn't matter how often I go back to it or what distribution I try I always find it to be impossibly buggy. Google how to fix these problems and you're soon into the bowels of the system messing around with incomprehensible configuration files. I do often wonder if I'm just the unluckiest person ever to try Linux or Linux users are in denial about the problems with their operating systems.

Re: The biggest problem with windows

[spongman]

does suspend sedation "Just Work"? does two-finger tap for right-click "Just Work"? does wi-fi roaming "Just Work"?

oh i know. it's open source... i should just STFU and fix it myself, right?

Delay Windows Update

[Prototerm]

I disable the Windows Update service until about a week or so after the release of a major update. Then, as long as I haven't seen any reports of people complaining about their machines breaking, I turn the service back on, get the update, and turn it back off again. It's a PITA, but it's better than the alternative.

Oh, I also changed the default setting in Windows 10 to create a restore point automatically prior to applying an update. Windows 10 has that turned off for some reason.

KB3033929

[emil]

This is hardly the first time such phenomena has occurred.

KB3033929 would kindly patch, fail, backout, and repeat for any users arrogant enough to overwrite the bootloader for multiple operating systems.

I disabled automatic update, which is a luxury that I would have to forego on the dark day that I upgrade to Windows 10.

That day will be a long time coming.

Re:Windows update rot

[DigiShaman]

If Microsoft would finally release the -long overdue- SP3 for Windows 7, we wouldn't have half the problems with Windows Updates. In the meantime, performing a Disk Cleanup to prune the old Windows Updates from the WinSxS folder does help. If you've never done it before, it can take a while the first time around.

Open source Microsoft bootloader?

[emil]

If Microsoft believes that they have a more compelling product than GRUB that should be adopted by competing operating systems, then they should open-source it.