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Georgia Aquarium Battles Federal Government Over Belugas

Posted by samzenpus on from the a-whale-of-a-tale dept.

An anonymous reader writes: The Georgia Aquarium has argued in court that the National Oceanic & Atmospheric Administration's denial of its permit to import beluga whales from Russia was arbitrary and capricious. The National Oceanic & Atmospheric Administration's National Marine Fisheries Service says the aquarium failed to meet the requirements of a law meant to protect marine mammals. Both sides accuse the other of twisting the facts, a NOAA lawyer accuses the aquarium trying "to confuse the court," and a lawyer for the aquarium says the government had "cooked the books" on whale population numbers.

56 of 90 comments (clear)

  1. approval by phantomfive · · Score: 4, Informative

    I'm so glad I'm a programmer. The only legal issues I have to deal with are patents and copyright suits. So much easier, right?

    According to the article, the aquarium already has some beluga whales in its care. When the new whales arrive, some of them will be kept in Georgia, others will be transferred to Sea World.

    Originally, the regulatory agency gave approval. Then in 2013, the agency changed its mind, and denied the approval. What movie about Sea World came out in 2013?

    In any case, the aquarium is suing the agency to open up the documents that explain why their request was denied. So far that hasn't gone through court yet.

    (Note, this is all from the article, and news articles are frequently wrong. I don't have any inside information here).

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    1. Re:approval by fustakrakich · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I don't understand why it should be approved. It's cruel to the animal. That's a pretty straightforward reason to deny it.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    2. Re:approval by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Indeed. They should shut all the facilities down, euthanize the animals that have no hope of being reintroduced to the wild and outlaw the importation or breeding of whales and dolphins.

      Oh, and fuck Sea World's investors.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    3. Re:approval by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      I'm so glad I'm a programmer outside USA where software patents aren't valid.

    4. Re:approval by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

      I don't understand why it should be approved. It's cruel to the animal. That's a pretty straightforward reason to deny it.

      Flamebait...Troll

      Damn! Animal torturers unite! Heavy, man! Didn't know they had such a big crowd in these parts.. Ah well... What else is new, I guess? Remember everybody, be very very grateful you're at the top of the food chain.

      People like the above are why it needs to be approved.

    5. Re:approval by Crashmarik · · Score: 1, Insightful

      ...programmer. The only legal issues I have to deal with are patents and copyright suits.

      For now. The Republicans have said many times that they want to make being a programmer as expensive and difficult as being a lawyer. My wife and old roommate are lawyers, and the bar has made their lives a living hell. That is the future Republicans want for us. You should never vote for one of them.

      Really ??? Was it Jeb that said that and does it extend to all the tech professions in the U.S. ? If so he's got my vote. That will take care of the whole H1-B problem in a shot and guarantee people in Tech fields much more opportunity.

    6. Re:approval by fustakrakich · · Score: 2

      They're not doing this for restocking the oceans. Anyway, I can't speak up against it without being modded into oblivion. So, I'll just have to let it go...

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    7. Re:approval by whoever57 · · Score: 2

      Really ??? Was it Jeb that said that and does it extend to all the tech professions in the U.S. ? If so he's got my vote. That will take care of the whole H1-B problem in a shot and guarantee people in Tech fields much more opportunity.

      "In the US" is the crucial point. It won't apply to programmers abroad, leading to even more international outsourcing. Yeah, less H1-Bs, but no jobs either, unless you want to move to India.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    8. Re:approval by tompaulco · · Score: 1, Informative

      This. The animals are better off dead, but the Republicans won't allow that since they enjoy seeing animals suffer. That is the way of their kind.

      I think you mean Democrats, since aquariums and zoological plants are liberal institutions where environmentalism and the fact that every single species of life on Earth is dangerously close to extinction at any given point in time is constantly shoved down your throat.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    9. Re:approval by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      Really ??? Was it Jeb that said that and does it extend to all the tech professions in the U.S. ? If so he's got my vote. That will take care of the whole H1-B problem in a shot and guarantee people in Tech fields much more opportunity.

      "In the US" is the crucial point. It won't apply to programmers abroad, leading to even more international outsourcing. Yeah, less H1-Bs, but no jobs either, unless you want to move to India.

      No, it was anonymous coward on the internet that said that as if it was a true statement without providing any sort of evidence whatsoever, especially to back up the fact that they supposedly said this multiple times.
      In fact, the comments on this article are so full of lies that slashdot should just remove it entirely before some gullible person actually believes any of it.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    10. Re:approval by iluvcapra · · Score: 1, Informative

      Indeed. They should shut all the facilities down, euthanize the animals that have no hope of being reintroduced to the wild and outlaw the importation or breeding of whales and dolphins.

      There are rescue organizations and zoos that would be happy to take many of these animals, that they're in captivity is one issue but it's not as important as their mistreatment. When Sea World can't use a whale in an act, they use it to breed more performing animals; if they can't use it to breed, they throw it away, either to a rescue organization or a smaller, even less reputable park.

      And, even if we had to euthanize every last one, at least we could say that no other whales would ever be pressed into this kind of service, which would be a good.

      Oh, and fuck Sea World's investors.

      I'm not exactly sure how someone's right to profits balances against concrete harms visited on intelligent creatures, for no other purpose than doing tricks in front of a paying audience.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    11. Re:approval by Aighearach · · Score: 5, Informative

      Well, don't just blindly trust the Fox News story here.

      As to the claim that they didn't give reasons...

      http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/pe...

      All of the documents are there, including the public comment, and the response from the company to the public comments, and the denial letter.

      http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/pe...
      http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/pe...

      I find their responses to the public comments to be evasive, dishonest, and confrontational. They make no attempt to seriously address the issues in a way that could lead to compromise solutions or mitigation of problems.

      They give a bunch of reasons for denial. And they didn't approve it and then unapprove it, either; they processed the application and denied it. The whales were captured in Russia before the permit application. Fox News would prefer it to be ambiguous so that it sounds like the big bad Gubermint is hurting everybody by changing their minds. But that didn't happen.

      Remember, the default thing with importing marine mammals for public display is that you can't do it. You can't just buy a marine mammal and build an aquarium. You need special permission, because these are intelligent animals who are under continued population stress due to human activity. People have gone to great lengths to afford them some minor protections. You need to get a permit, and it needs to be in the public interest. This company seems to think that they have a right to import marine mammals, but they simply don't. That isn't a right. The government has a significant interest in regulating foreign trade.

      Why does Fox News care? Because evul libraaals want to save whales.

      https://www.change.org/p/noaa-...

      There was no approval before the denial. They applied, the public commented, the agency considered, and they denied it. Which is what most of the public wanted in this case. I don't even understand their claim; how could they have approval already before the required public comment period, etc? It makes no sense at all. They knew the process going in; the person doing the review recommended denial, and the Agency agreed and denied. It is a requirement of the law that in order to issue such a permit, it has to not have a negative impact on the species. In this case, these are whales being captured in the wild purely to sell to zoos, and so supporting that trade has a small but negative impact on the species. There is no positive conservation goal identified that balances that. It is purely for entertainment. That is banned under the law where it has any negative impact on the species. In other cases, whales that are threatened in the wild are captured to be used in captive breeding programs that are believed to have a net positive impact on the species. That means it is legal for NOAA to issue the permit in those cases. The Beluga population is not benefiting or expected to benefit from any such breeding program.

    12. Re:approval by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Oh, and fuck Sea World's investors.

      I'm not exactly sure how someone's right to profits balances against concrete harms visited on intelligent creatures, for no other purpose than doing tricks in front of a paying audience.

      That was covered in the prior comment. Fuck them right in their evil enslaving asses.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    13. Re:approval by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      Can't tell if the GP was playing it straight or sardonic upon re-reading.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    14. Re:approval by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Why care about moderation that much? Hell, I am fucking shocked that I have "excellent" karma. I do not say nice things and am seldom on topic. I can't say I agree with you - I am not sure how I think, they're pretty cushy at their new home but it still sucks but we do it to other animals and have decided that is okay. We draw the line at Whales? Why stop there? So, no... I haven't a clue. I suspect is that they just don't want to have to deal with protesters. Say what you want. Nobody gives a shit, really. Karma is for burning, after all. Why earn it if you're not going to use it?

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    15. Re:approval by houghi · · Score: 1

      Except for the euthanize part, I am all for it. Close the circus for public. Add no new animals by breeding or otherwise.

      The same should happen with zoos.

      Some people will say that the animals are becoming extinct, but if the animals have no way of returning, then just saving them because it is nice to have them, then we should not keep them.

      If there is a chance that we can bring them back to the wild, we do not need the public to see them.

      I would say: do it in steps.
      1) Close these for the public
      2) See that no animals are being added
      3) Send those back that can be send back
      4) Keep those that ca not be send back. As no new animals are added, this will solve itself in time.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    16. Re:approval by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Actually that was an AP story and shows up on FoxNews because almost all AP stories show up there. But hey thanks for sharing your hate.

    17. Re:approval by GLMDesigns · · Score: 1

      Do you really believe your bullsh*t?

      Please give your evidence.

      --
      If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
      Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
    18. Re:approval by dywolf · · Score: 1

      Sounds like the aquarium was acting as a middleman buyer to disguise the actual buyer.

      And they got denied for trying to do something fishy.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    19. Re:approval by dywolf · · Score: 1

      a lot of zoos need a lot of work, bigger enclosures, etc. (a lot of smaller Midwestern city zoos; Henry Dorley in Omaha is a world class zoo, but OKC's city zoo erally really needs bigger enclosures for its animals, the rhinos and cats in particular (though they are working on it as they get funding, so good on em))

      some zoos are actively cruel and abusive, and should be shutdown (the "safari zoo" north of Reno comes to mind).

      but generally speaking, you do need the public to see them.
      without public support these programs wont happen.
      and most of public support comes from the wonder of having seen the critters, and zoos are a big part of that.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    20. Re:approval by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      He's of the Lois Griffin Theory of Fox News.

      "Everything Fox News says is a lie. Even true things, once said on Fox News, become lies."

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    21. Re:approval by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Actually that was an AP story and shows up on FoxNews because almost all AP stories show up there. But hey thanks for sharing your hate.

      FOX is blameless because they passed on a lie, but weren't the source of the lie themselves? Make sure to tell that to Dan Rather on your way to getting over your butthurt.

    22. Re:approval by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      Well, if it was me, I would open a kitchen instead of a zoo and have all those animals on my plate, not in cage. I'm not sure if that is liberal or conservative, republican or democrat. I only look for good taste.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
  2. it's wrong by cats-paw · · Score: 4, Interesting

    keeping Belugas in captivity is wrong, wrong, wrong.

    The Georgia Acquarium was wrong from the moment they started this effort.

    --
    Absolute statements are never true
    1. Re: it's wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      I live in atlanta and we have a season pass to the Georgia aquarium. The reason why the aquarium needs more whales is because for whatever reason the people who run it and the owner, Home Depot founder Arthur Blank, decided the unique attraction would be whale sharks and belugas. Both keep dying in captivity and hence need to be replaced frequently with wild animals to keep the exhibits open. Pretty ridiculous really. The aquarium is excellent without the poor belugas trapped in a small tank.

    2. Re:it's wrong by amiga3D · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm generally anti-PETA but I really think keeping whales in a small tank is pretty fucked. Whales are not fish, they are Mammals and fairly intelligent ones at that.

    3. Re: it's wrong by Major+Blud · · Score: 1

      If I understand this correctly, the original Beluga's were rescued from a theme park in Mexico, and they had calves within the Georgia Aquarium:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      --
      If you post as Anonymous Coward, don't expect a reply.
    4. Re:it's wrong by Rei · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, keeping orcas (orca = latin for "hellspawn") is quite appropriate. The more you read about their behavior in the wild, the more you feel that they're way too far along that same combination of "smart" and "malicious" that humans are for comfort - killing for fun, using live animals to play catch, hunting animals only for their favorite cuts of meat and then letting the rest go, holding great whites upside down so that they go tonic and can't resist being leisurely eaten, belching up food to bait birds to come to the surface while lying in wait, learning how to freaking crawl on a beach to get at seals that think they're safe and teaching these sorts of skills to their young, etc. Some populations don't even seem to see fish as food, only having interest in killing mammals. Best to teach them who's in charge before they get uppity and evolve opposable thumbs ;)

      --
      "99 dead duelists of Dios on the wall. 99 dead duelists of Dios! Take one's ring, pass it around..."
    5. Re:it's wrong by Triklyn · · Score: 1

      fuck that, lets eat them first.

    6. Re:it's wrong by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      keeping Belugas in captivity is wrong, wrong, wrong.

      The Georgia Acquarium was wrong from the moment they started this effort.

      Fair enough, but that isn't the law. You can't abuse regulatory process for ulterior motives.

      Though it is done all the time.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    7. Re:it's wrong by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      I saw a video of one that caught a great white and swam along side a cruise ship holding the shark up out of the water down the whole length of the ship for all the tourists to see. Fucking showing off, "Look what I caught!" Damn things are too much like humans.

    8. Re:it's wrong by hawkfish · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, keeping orcas (orca = latin for "hellspawn") is quite appropriate. The more you read about their behavior in the wild, the more you feel that they're way too far along that same combination of "smart" and "malicious" that humans are for comfort - killing for fun, using live animals to play catch, hunting animals only for their favorite cuts of meat and then letting the rest go, holding great whites upside down so that they go tonic and can't resist being leisurely eaten, belching up food to bait birds to come to the surface while lying in wait, learning how to freaking crawl on a beach to get at seals that think they're safe and teaching these sorts of skills to their young, etc. Some populations don't even seem to see fish as food, only having interest in killing mammals. Best to teach them who's in charge before they get uppity and evolve opposable thumbs ;)

      OTOH, the ones we have here in the Pacific Northwest seem to eat mostly salmon and be lot more um civilised. Which makes them even more human-like I suppose.

      --
      You will not drink with us, but you would taste our steel? - Walter Matthau, The Pirates
    9. Re:it's wrong by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      keeping Belugas in captivity is wrong, wrong, wrong.

      The Georgia Acquarium was wrong from the moment they started this effort.

      That Dentist who killed the lion wants to shoot those pesky whales.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    10. Re:it's wrong by Rei · · Score: 1

      Yeah, there are significant differences between different populations in terms of diets and how they hunt, and they teach their young what's food and how to hunt it. Another thing that's creepily like us. For example, the ones that hunt on beaches, the mothers will push their offspring into the shallows while remaining just behind it, ready to pull it out if it seems unable to extract itself. The ones that hunt seals and penguins on iceflows with waves that wash over the top (forgot to mention those ones) likewise train their young on how to make the best waves, playing "games" with them with the waves.

      We really don't know how complicated their language is - it's only in recent years that we've even had affordable available devices that can record it in enough precision to get all of the high frequency data. But we know that they (and other dolphin species) make up and use "names" for each other. Also, they "point" to objects (with their echolocation pulses) in their communications to convey messages to others, something very rare in the animal kingdom.

      --
      "99 dead duelists of Dios on the wall. 99 dead duelists of Dios! Take one's ring, pass it around..."
  3. Re:I heard they taste like chicken by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · · Score: 1

    In Japan, parents tell their children that chicken tastes just like beluga whales.

  4. cetaceans don't even belong in aquariums by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    It's hard to believe that this is even still a debate in 2015.

  5. Re:I heard they taste like chicken by PPH · · Score: 1

    I heard humans taste just like chicken.

    Pork.

    Ever hear of 'long pork'?

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  6. Russians ... by PPH · · Score: 1

    ... will take the second bid for the whales. From Benihana.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
    1. Re:Russians ... by KGIII · · Score: 1

      You do have a valid point. Do they eat whales there?

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  7. Re:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japoteurs by amiga3D · · Score: 1

    Actually it was pretty funny. Chicken tastes just like Beluga whales, get it? It's fucking hilarious.

  8. Use the US geo politics by AHuxley · · Score: 2

    Understand and leverage current US geo politics surrounding Russia.
    List nations surrounding Russia that have just had a US back coup or historical US backed color revolution.
    Contact State Department and ask for any type of whale from other nations surrounding Russia.
    Watch as all US paper work is done in hours and transport aircraft fly press to see US backed conservation effort success story.
    Ensure to include big national flags on plaques around exhibit and plan big press event for opening ceremony.

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    1. Re:Use the US geo politics by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Russia seems happy to give the whale over. The problem is an American agency, NOAA.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  9. Re:I heard they taste like chicken by amiga3D · · Score: 1

    I believe the actual term is "long pig."

  10. Re:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japoteurs by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

    You might be humor challenged. Personally I'd like to try whale some time. I have heard it's great fried.

  11. Re:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japoteurs by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

    Chicken tastes just like Beluga whales, get it?

    I once tasted whale, when a friend ordered it in a restaurant in Tokyo. It tasted more like beef than chicken. I think it was minke, not beluga, but I suspect they taste about the same.

  12. Re:Whalers by KGIII · · Score: 1

    That is not going to gain any traction. Just trust me on this.

    --
    "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  13. Bulbous Bouffants? by bughunter · · Score: 2

    Did any of the lawyers for either NOAA or the aquarium have BULBOUS BOUFFANTS?

    Cuz, if you grew up in the 70s and 80s like me, then you know how cool that would be if they did.

    --
    I can see the fnords!
  14. Re:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japoteurs by soccerisgod · · Score: 2

    I'm sure your friend was conducting a scientific experiment. After all, that is why the Japanese are hunting whales. Right? RIGHT?

    --
    If a train station is a place where a train stops, what's a workstation?
  15. Re:Pretty darn interesting, wow. by nospam007 · · Score: 1

    "Heh. I'm trying to figure out what this has to do with geek/tech news."

    I'm trying that with almost every article.:-)

    I guess the government thought those whales were producing Beluga caviar.

  16. Re:Whalers by Rei · · Score: 1

    Apropos.

    --
    "99 dead duelists of Dios on the wall. 99 dead duelists of Dios! Take one's ring, pass it around..."
  17. Re:I heard they taste like chicken by Triklyn · · Score: 1

    so i wonder what police officers taste like.

    how do you square the awesome that is bacon?

  18. Re:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japoteurs by soccerisgod · · Score: 1

    What the hell difference would that make? It's still wrong.

    --
    If a train station is a place where a train stops, what's a workstation?
  19. Re:GA History of Beluga and Whale Shark Deaths by dywolf · · Score: 1

    Yeah, not a particularly good aquarium or very good history.

    --
    The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
  20. Re:*Raises hand* by barakn · · Score: 1

    You can't get a weather prediction for next week right either.

    --
    "I'm so moist I'm sticking to the leather." -Kermit the Frog on The Late Late Show
  21. Do you always have a problem with simple concepts? by Uberbah · · Score: 1

    Connect the dots:

    1) AC unhappy that Fox is being lampooned for dishonesty, when they 'merely' repeated something they heard from AP.

    2) The venn diagram of FOX fans who defend the station and also hate Dan Rather, who reported a story partially based on questionable documents, is one nice big ball.

    If Fox is blameless, than so too is Rather. If Rather deserved blame, then so too does Fox.

    Pick one.

  22. Re:Do you always put words in people's mouths? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

    Nonsense. Your complaint doesn't hold up. I stand by what I said.

    Slashdot linked to the Fox News story. I don't care where they got the pap. They published the drivel, and slashdot linked to it. Both are fully responsible for crap published on these two websites and linked together.

    Further, I would assign very little fault to the author, as compared to the publisher. There is a bottomless supply of drivel available for publishing, but a limited number of established publishers. Better writing in a particular piece would just change who or if it got published; if the publisher is publishing lies and drivel, then they would publish that from a different author had the story been better. The author generally couldn't have changed what was published by writing something different. Yet, the publisher can indeed choose to publish something they believe to be honest; if they want to.