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Report: Computers 'Do Not Improve' Pupil Results

An anonymous reader writes: A report issued by the UK's Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development has evaluated how technology in classrooms affects test results, and found that the availability of computers provides "no noticeable improvement" to students' test scores. According to the report, "Students who use computers very frequently at school get worse results." Also, "high achieving school systems such as South Korea and Shanghai in China have lower levels of computer use in school." The organization warns that classroom technology can be a distraction if implemented unwisely, and it also opens the door to easy ways of cheating.

283 comments

  1. Definitely understandable by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 5, Funny
    Most computers now a days use LED screens which emit bright light. Using it a lot and staring at it for extended period of time will damage all parts of the eye, the cornea, the retina too, not merely the pupils. So it is understanda..

    wait, you are not talking about these pupils, right?

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    1. Re:Definitely understandable by penguinoid · · Score: 1

      Having the pupil's grades on a computer secured by someone deemed knowledgeable enough to teach our future generation, tends to improve their grades.

      --
      Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
    2. Re:Definitely understandable by Adriax · · Score: 1

      Nope. This is a UK study, so you have to remember they use "proper" english slang. Like lift and flat instead of elevator and apartment.

      I believe Pupil is slang for Badger over there.
      Which makes sense. Badgers would get nothing out of a computer, except maybe a scratching post.

      --
      I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!
    3. Re:Definitely understandable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Problem 1: Students are given generic devices that they have control over, instead of devices that are property of the school along with all the software on it.
      This is basically the difference between giving someone an Apple device which is locked down, and an Android device which isn't locked down, and between the security implications and the ability of the student to install whatever they want on it, results in the device not being used for what it's supposed to be used for.
      Problem 2: Text books aren't being produced 1:1 print and digitally. The devices are useless if the don't provide a better experience than print.
      2a) Digital books are lighter
      2b) Digital books can be "higlighted", notes taken, etc
      2c) Digital books are more sanitary, as print books might be harboring infectious diseases.
      Problem 3: Tests aren't being taken on devices, they're still being taken on "punch card" style scantron's.

      Anything else done with the devices doesn't really improve the learning experience, outside of replacing the textbook, kids need hands-on learning in addition to crafting and shop classes. A "cooking app" doesn't replace cooking, a "CAD program" doesn't replace a shop class.

    4. Re:Definitely understandable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmm I always thought that flats meant you got the entire floor as your apartment. Not that it was a standard apartment.

    5. Re:Definitely understandable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And here I was thinking flats were some kind of shoes worn primarily by females.

    6. Re:Definitely understandable by David_Hart · · Score: 1

      And here I thought that flats referred to a shallow area of water with a relatively even bottom.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    7. Re:Definitely understandable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, a flat is basically a living space with bedrooms, much like an apartment except it's not limited to a multi-storey building and could just as easily be a house, or part of a house.

    8. Re:Definitely understandable by mattventura · · Score: 1

      But if you give someone a locked down iDevice, it becomes a tool that teaches people, rather than a tool people can learn about. If you give students a generic Windows laptop that they have at least some degree of control over, then they get to learn a thing or two about computing while they're at it, which a lot of schools are sorely lacking in.

    9. Re:Definitely understandable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mostly they're gonna play flash games, (try to) facebook, and download every music player/supplier/streamer, while downloading every malware in the process.

      They'll also do this on locked down devices, for whatever is possible. Then toss it aside for whatever isn't.

      That said, the few that do dick around with the OS (even merely "operating") will learn some. Dicking around is a valid source of learning in tech.

    10. Re: Definitely understandable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Flats were also known inEngland as barges.

    11. Re:Definitely understandable by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      No, a flat is basically a living space with bedrooms, much like an apartment except it's not limited to a multi-storey building and could just as easily be a house, or part of a house.

      No, if it's a whole house, it's called a house. A flat would never be the whole building.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    12. Re:Definitely understandable by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

      "2b) Digital books can be "higlighted", notes taken, etc"

      It's even easier with a handwritten lesson the pupil was forced to write.
      Are you going to edit the pdf, html or epub (or docbook or latex)?, add some overlaid text or images that are stored separately?, there's a thousand way to do it and that's a problem. Data can be lost.

      "2c) Digital books are more sanitary, as print books might be harboring infectious diseases."

      That's only a concern for a subset of disabled children, in which case they need universal healthcare and hospital or home schooling.

    13. Re:Definitely understandable by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

      I didn't know that meaning, it would sure be nice. There are places you are lucky if you get an appartment with windows on both sides.

    14. Re:Definitely understandable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, no, flats are shoes. Just ask my wife, she knows everything.

    15. Re: Definitely understandable by kenh · · Score: 1

      Problem 2: Text books aren't being produced 1:1 print and digitally. The devices are useless if the don't provide a better experience than print.
      2a) Digital books are lighter
      2b) Digital books can be "higlighted", notes taken, etc
      2c) Digital books are more sanitary, as print books might be harboring infectious diseases.

      Digital textbooks are licensed per user, per year, and rarely license at a cost lower than printed books, once the cost of supplying and maintaining eReader devices (tablets, laptop, desktop, whatever).

      --
      Ken
    16. Re:Definitely understandable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, a block of flats contains many flats on each floor.

    17. Re:Definitely understandable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      However, he didn't say it was a whole house. He said a flat could be in a house. "Granny flat" is an "appartment" in the home where you have your aged relative where you can give them independence but still be available in case of problems.

      It is even used as "Student flats" where you have bedrooms as the flat with each door having a lock, but shared front room, bathroom, kitchen, etc.

    18. Re: Definitely understandable by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Digital texts can be produced once by the state and update better to pay qualified people to produce texts at university as part of the salary, than to pay publishers anything at all. So computers provide cheap texts and of course can provide learning simulations, that students can manipulate and program, beyond that, not much at all. No different from children staring at idiot boxes in the classrooms. Empty consumption of content does not provide an education and it only teaches students how to be empty consumers of content (oh now I get why M$ and Apple are pushing empty content education so hard).

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
  2. Cheating by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, at least they're not cheating.

  3. Procrastinators dream by Camel+Pilot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Computers enable procrastination always providing readily available diversionary escape. Learning is still hard work... no short cuts.

    1. Re: Procrastinators dream by malignant_minded · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I agree and disagree. There is a point that memorization is beneficial but just like multiplication tables after a point it is wasted effort with an unlikely return. LMGTFY is a huge modern skill lacking in many. Is it bad that kids in a programming class are pouring through stackoverflow to get the answers to the test? How many programmers here tweak Google searches in such sites as a normal occurrence of their day? That is cheating in the eyes of a school. So yeah, playing games all day is a distraction but when your test questions can be found by Googling who is at fault and how is that not 'learning'?

    2. Re: Procrastinators dream by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 1

      This was my thought exactly. It's like a headline reading:

      Study finds that computers do not assist students reshoe their horses any faster!

      You're testing for the wrong shit. If your test is "In what year did Columbus land in America?" And then you take away the computer the student won't do any better. Sure Asian students are fantastic little encyclopedias of useless shit but that is useful in one place: school; more specifically: during a test in school.

      Now let's take computers out of the class room and have a test which asks fourth graders "What month did Napoleon III start the Franco Prussian war?" They are going to do far more poorly than when they had computers at their desks during the test and could use them for their intended purpose. It would be like complaining that calculators don't improve scholastic performance in reading or that they don't improve math scores on tests in which they can't be used. If you give students a tool and then test them arbitrarily without the tool they will underperform those who never had the tool at all.

      I can guarantee that I would excel at standardized tests with the use of a computer and kick the ass of someone without a computer. But you can't blame the computer for me realizing that what you're teaching me is useless since I can retrieve that data nearly instantaneously.

    3. Re: Procrastinators dream by ignavusinfo · · Score: 1

      My gut feeling is that cutting and pasting answers (programming related or otherwise) from the internet doesn't really help develop critical thinking skills except in the cases where a student is motivated to deconstruct the found answer in order to understand it and then makes a judgement call on its suitability to address the problem at hand. If students are engaged in that whole process, I agree with you that searching for answers might be a valuable technique (not unlike schlepping off to the library). If it's a cut-n-paste job to finish an assignment, there seems to be minimal educational value.

      Exactly the same holds with professional programmers using StackOverflow: writing a program that appears to work without understanding why isn't really great programming and does not make one a competent programmer (but might make one a competent employee which I find to be indescribably sad but that's a different topic).

      I'm not an educator, so take this with a grain of salt.

    4. Re: Procrastinators dream by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      pouring

      Poring.

    5. Re: Procrastinators dream by malignant_minded · · Score: 1

      Haha fail. Thank you.

    6. Re:Procrastinators dream by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sort of. I would rather say that the internet enables procrastination (but then I'm ancient enough to remember computers pre internet). In terms of learning, the web is like a combination shopping mall, library, and red light district. That book you had every intention of reading is sitting on a table between a pet store full of cute cats and a strip joint. So, quelle surprise, you get a bit distracted and end up buying a cute kitten and trying to peek through a window at the strip joint.

      I sure know that when I was doing my phd and wanted to get some serious writing or work done step 1 would be to turn off my modem. But, then, without the net I could never have downloaded all those papers so easily and would have spent several eons trawling though dusty library journals following citations trails.

      Mind you that was back when disconnecting from the net was as easy as switching off a modem or unplugging an Ethernet cable. These days the procrastaplex is much, much harder to escape.

    7. Re:Procrastinators dream by hackwrench · · Score: 1

      If you're on Windows, there's a little icon in the lower right corner that can lead to an option to disconnect from your wireless router. The steps may vary depending on which version of Windows you are using, and the other operating systems probably have a similar feature as well.

    8. Re: Procrastinators dream by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The key is the processes that are taught. Unfortunately there are only really a few taught. I agree that GoogleFu should be a mandatory one though.

      When I am getting "letters home from the teacher," an english teacher no less, with glaring grammatical errors, what exactly are the schools doing besides babysitting?

      I think the kids have a better chance of educating themselves on the Internet. It also subjects them to global languages, cultures, and most importantly, ideas.

      Additionally it would prevent slower children from holding back the faster learners. This is something I was troubled with all through school. I would ace tests but do absolutely no homework. I almost failed a few times but what is the point of doing the same thing over and over when I had a solid grasp of the concept and process. This made me disinterested, which also lead to a disinterest in school and learning all together (for about 5 wonderfully fun teenage years). I have since made up those 5 years (and more judging by the flat-line learning curves I see on a daily basis).

    9. Re:Procrastinators dream by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 0

      The difference between "Computers..." and "The way we implemented computers..." is important.

      This study did not discern, nor did you.

      You came closer, but did not discern. So close. But fail.

    10. Re:Procrastinators dream by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Indeed. Of course, learning about computers and what they can do has a place in school, but computer use should be restricted to these times. For the rest, as little distraction from the subject matter as possible is paramount.

      I think the primary problem is not lazy students, it is lazy teachers and idiots that want the education system primarily to be cheap. Just more indicators for the end of a civilization. The clock is ticking for the west.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    11. Re: Procrastinators dream by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bull fucking shit. You are lazy and making excuses for not putting in the work.

    12. Re:Procrastinators dream by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree. And it's such a waste because computers have so much potential as a study aid. I was able (using Duolingo) to pick up a foreign language far more efficiently (more thorough and faster) than I had been able to in school, when I was younger and better at learning and there were teachers and books and stuff.

      But schools often have regular PCs running regular web browsers, rather than computers which are locked into the task at hand. Furthermore, when you're sitting at a computer it's so very easy to look like you're working. Just look at the screen, and pound random keys semi-regularly (when I started doing this at work my colleagues suddenly started to rate me as "more productive" in the quarterly reviews). Teachers don't do a very good job when it comes to figuring out who's working and slacking at his computer. We've learnt to recognise the signs of slacking when pupils use books, pen and paper, but the institutional knowledge to recognise computer slacking just isn't there yet.

  4. Common sense = none by rtkluttz · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Its not computers, magnet schools, charter schools, teacher pay, higher taxes or any of those even when statistics sometimes hint at showing otherwise. The commonality is involved parents who help their kids when struggle, demand they toe the line when they get hardheaded, and have expectations for success. Its just not politically correct to say so because parent involvement lines up so closely with racial lines. Not exact, but close enough.

    --
    Digital is, by definition, imperfect. Analog is the way to go.
    1. Re:Common sense = none by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Please have all the mod points.

      I don't know how many times we have to debate this, but no shiny new toy ever makes anyone more willing to learn.

      If you want to learn, you will. If not, nothing will help you.

      And yes, the strong correlation with parental involvement is not fictional.

    2. Re:Common sense = none by Ayanami_R · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Live in ghetto, am minority, can confirm. We are pretty tough on our 14 year old and DEMAND good grades. His friends parents... not so much. They pretty much check out once their kids hit middle school.

      --
      "Science is the power of man"
    3. Re:Common sense = none by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You mean spending millions on Ipads doesn't mean we are progressing in education?

    4. Re: Common sense = none by niekvenlo · · Score: 1

      So, parents can make you learn. And nothing can make you learn. Are you sure you've thought this through?

    5. Re:Common sense = none by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 2

      Its just not politically correct to say so because parent involvement lines up so closely with racial lines. Not exact, but close enough.

      Indefensible xeonphobia.

    6. Re:Common sense = none by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice attempt at race baiting

    7. Re:Common sense = none by konohitowa · · Score: 5, Funny

      Indefensible xeonphobia

      Since when do we need to defend our fear of Intel processors? That's just well-honed survival instincts coming into play.

    8. Re:Common sense = none by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The commonality is involved parents who help their kids when struggle, demand they toe the line when they get hardheaded, and have expectations for success.

      This is "obvious" and something that everyone "knows", but there is actually very little supporting evidence. Although involved parents, who buy lots of books, read to their kids, and push them to study, are correlated with academic success, they don't cause it. Once you correct for the things that DO matter (IQ of biological parents and family income) all of that correlation vanishes.

      The secret to academic success is simple: be born to smart, rich parents.

    9. Re:Common sense = none by GuB-42 · · Score: 0

      Indefensible xeonphobia.

      Xeonphobia? Is it what you get when you lack Inteligence?

    10. Re:Common sense = none by AK+Marc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      . Its just not politically correct to say so because parent involvement lines up so closely with racial lines. Not exact, but close enough.

      Then you notice that hours worked to provide food for the children lines up on racial lines as well. The parents aren't involved. They are out working their second job so their children can eat. If you can solve poverty, you solve 90% of the "race issue" in the US, other than the bigots who assert it's about the lazy race, and not economics.

    11. Re:Common sense = none by istartedi · · Score: 2

      Xeonphobia? I think parent might be more Intelligent than he lets on.

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    12. Re:Common sense = none by Wootery · · Score: 1

      Its just not politically correct to say so because parent involvement lines up so closely with racial lines. Not exact, but close enough.

      I'm guessing you mean in the USA? This isn't generally true in the UK.

    13. Re:Common sense = none by sensei+moreh · · Score: 1

      Its not computers, magnet schools, charter schools, teacher pay, higher taxes or any of those even when statistics sometimes hint at showing otherwise. The commonality is involved parents who help their kids when struggle, demand they toe the line when they get hardheaded, and have expectations for success

      My inclination is to agree, but I'd really like to see some data to support this claim

      --
      Geology - it's not rocket science; it's rock science
    14. Re:Common sense = none by OhPlz · · Score: 2

      What do you want, more social nets? We're in a messed up situation where those that can afford to raise a family and are responsible enough to do a good job at it at the least likely to want to have offspring, meanwhile the government is doing everything possible to encourage those who are less responsible and have no means to support a family to have children anyway. I don't think poverty is the root of this issue. Poverty is a symptom of a bigger problem.

    15. Re:Common sense = none by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1, Troll

      They are out working their second job so their children can eat.

      No they aren't. 60% of households in the bottom quintile (20%) have NO ONE employed. Households in the top quintile, have, on average, 2.1 people employed. It is the rich, not the poor, that are pressed for time.

    16. Re:Common sense = none by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Informative

      I'm guessing you mean in the USA? This isn't generally true in the UK.

      Yes it is, just in the opposite direction. In the UK, minorities in the cities are doing relatively well, and it is the white people in Northern England, and the Scottish Lowlands, that are failing.

    17. Re:Common sense = none by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The race issue isn't solved if you solve "poverty" -- which you can't. There are people on skid row making over $150K a year -- but they are homeless, smell like shit, and spend over $150K a year on meth and crack.

      The race issue is solved when the mother and father of their children are married and live in the same home without getting hooked on illegal drugs. If you can manage enough self control to stick with those 2 good choices across your entire life, you have something like a 95% chance of escaping the poverty cycle. It's not a high hurdle to jump; you just gotta keep it in your pants and out of your veins. That's too much to expect from minorities, according to liberals, so let's ejaculate money at the problem!

    18. Re: Common sense = none by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some research suggests it's only one parent - the mother - and her level of education that has an effect on future educational out comes.

    19. Re:Common sense = none by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which race?

    20. Re: Common sense = none by bondsbw · · Score: 2

      There's no conflict. If you want to learn, parents can make a difference.

      Also, parents can help convince you that you want to learn.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    21. Re:Common sense = none by SpankiMonki · · Score: 1

      Once you correct for the things that DO matter (IQ of biological parents and family income) all of that correlation vanishes [wordpress.com].

      Your link to the WordPress article doesn't support your claim. Care to try again?

    22. Re: Common sense = none by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 3

      Also, parents can help convince you that you want to learn.

      Note that the easiest ways parents can convince you to want to learn is to want to learn themselves.

      Just as the best way to ensure your kid sees reading as anything other than a chore is for you to read for pleasure regularly (for which read: pretty much whenever opportunity allows).

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    23. Re: Common sense = none by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Some research suggests it's only one parent - the mother - and her level of education that has an effect on future educational out comes.

      If this "research" actually existed, you could have provided a link to it. Yet you didn't.

    24. Re:Common sense = none by SpankiMonki · · Score: 1

      Idiocracinism. It's real, and it here. Now.

    25. Re:Common sense = none by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And racial lines line up so closely to financial lines.

    26. Re:Common sense = none by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly right! I have seen far too many parents that use school as a babysitting service, and expect the kids to be taught everything that they need to know in school. These parents rarely see their kids, much less spend time with them! And both parents having to work is NO EXCUSE! My parents both worked, but they made time to be with my brother and I. They talked with us and taught us things. Mostly common sense things. When I started kindergarden, I could write my name, address, phone number and parents and grandparents names and addresses and phone numbers, and count to 30. Back then there was no pre-school. Our parents were the "pre-school"! My mother was involved with the school system, volunteering for programs that helped teach students to read and learn math. We were expected to try our best, and to get at least passing grades, and encouraged to do better than just passing grades.

      We were not allowed to monopolize the phone, and mom and dad did not buy us things unless they were sure that we would use and take care of them properly. More often we did extra chores, mowed neighbor's lawns etc...to pay or help pay for things we wanted. This made us appreciate them more than if they were just given to us, as we knew mom and dad would not replace them if they were lost or broken through carelessness. If cell phones, tablets, computers, mp3 players etc... had been available back then, I am sure that my parents would not have allowed us to have such things until we were old enough and responsible enough to use them properly, and only at appropriate times.

      A few years ago, a local school had to ban the wearing of hooded shirts in the classroom. Why? Far too many students were using them to conceal mp3 players that they would listen to instead of paying attention in class! Cell phones had to be banned from the classroom too, kept in the student's locker except for breaks and lunchtime. Far too many parents (and non-parents too) spend far too much time on facebook (and similar data mining sites) or talking on the phone instead of spending time with their kids, so is it any wonder that the children of such parents do the same things?

    27. Re: Common sense = none by rtkluttz · · Score: 2

      Parents provide the environment that facilitates learning. Nothing else does it. Nothing replaces that need and the level of influence of an involved parent more than overcomes all other learning aids combined by a large margin. Large enough that all the other stuff is nearly irrelevant.

      --
      Digital is, by definition, imperfect. Analog is the way to go.
    28. Re:Common sense = none by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 1

      The GP works at AMD.

    29. Re:Common sense = none by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Indy 500.

    30. Re:Common sense = none by Thelasko · · Score: 1

      A researcher actually ranked the influences that effect grades. The results are astounding. Most of these techniques I had never heard of. Probably because no one profits from using them.

      --
      One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
    31. Re:Common sense = none by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I had a huge eye opener when my kids first went to public school overhearing the parents in line behind us arguing over who should have been reading to their kid every night -- it starts there.

    32. Re:Common sense = none by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Reducing the inefficiencies in our food distribution system would solve this.

      Nationally we throw out enough food to solve the problem. All we need to do is figure out a way to rout it to hungry people instead of the landfill.

    33. Re: Common sense = none by Jhon · · Score: 2

      "Just as the best way to ensure your kid sees reading as anything other than a chore is for you to read for pleasure regularly (for which read: pretty much whenever opportunity allows)."

      I don't know if it's the BEST way, but it is *A* way.

      I read to my kids every night when they were young (now both teenagers). The way I got them interested in reading is to "A" read with emotion and character voices and "B" stop at cliff-hangers, not at chapter breaks. My son would go bonkers when I would say: "...then there was a BANG! -- Ok, that's it for tonight. If you'd like to pick up the book and read ahead, you've got 15 mins before 'lights out'".

      My daughter took a bit more work but eventually got there. She's not the "word sponge" my son is, but she reads a good 2 or 3 books a month on her own.

    34. Re:Common sense = none by Jhon · · Score: 1

      Well, LAUSD learned a valuable lesson. Don't buy ipads.

    35. Re:Common sense = none by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The vast majority of poor people in America aren't anywhere close to starving. In fact, most of them are obese and eat way more than necessary.

    36. Re:Common sense = none by irving47 · · Score: 1

      Hell, he can have all the mod points, and I'll leverage our children's childrens' mod points to boot. It's depressing as hell that not only can we not talk about the statistics and demographics, but to change/improve the situation, what in the world would have to be done?

      BUT, I disagree on your different media/shiny toy point.
      A shiny, new interface that can engage more senses than a Ticonderoga #2 and loose-leaf paper or workbook.
      Sure, it might make a difference between interaction with a computer or watching a video (ie-Sesame Street) but I'd bet money any day of the week that those of us that watched Sesame Street, Mr. Rogers, and Electric Company in the early 80's are more well versed than of our peers who did not, in math and english. Hell, in contractions ALONE....
      I'd be a great teacher... But I'd be a depressed and hopeless teacher too quickly.
      Then I'd be a fired teacher for telling the wrong kid's parents why their snowflake is failing, using plain, non-PC-filtered english.

      --
      I had a sucky sig.
    37. Re:Common sense = none by Jhon · · Score: 1

      I think you'll also find the problem with lack of parental involvement has increased as the number of single parent house holds have increased.

      I further think you'll find that having kids after 22 will increase ones chances of not being poor.

      And lastly, I think you'll find that not having kids until you are married will increase ones chances of not being poor.

      Is the solution to further break the traditional family unit which has worked for recorded history by offering further incentives to lack any type of self-control or self discipline or do we offer incentives to have kids AFTER marriage rather than BEFORE marriage?

    38. Re:Common sense = none by irving47 · · Score: 1

      But would you entertain the argument that it could depend A LOT on what the iPad is loaded with?

      --
      I had a sucky sig.
    39. Re: Common sense = none by Spy+Handler · · Score: 1

      You must have never seen Asian people before. Do you live in Lithuania or something?

      Child does not want to learn, plays video games only. Asian mom yells at him. Asian dad comes home and beats the snot out of him with a cane. Child does his homework to avoid pain. Child eventually learns something. Or not. But at least he graduates, gets a job, and does not depend on welfare for the rest of his life. Which is more than you can say for some other non-Asian people.

    40. Re:Common sense = none by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can't even validly defend yourself being proven an off topic troll http://developers.slashdot.org...

    41. Re:Common sense = none by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      I made the same observation/conclusion when I moved to a really poor area. Just avoiding a few cases of beer a week would be enough to get you 50%.

    42. Re:Common sense = none by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      It must have been very hilly and cold where you lived.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    43. Re:Common sense = none by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 2

      But would you entertain the argument that it could depend A LOT on what the iPad is loaded with?

      To this point, I've not seen anything to convince me there are apps that make much of a difference. I'm sure there are some clever ones, but I've not seen anything yet that is any sort of game changer. My kid uses chromebook in school, most of the time it is for report generation and researching stuff on the internet. Some convenient methods to submit finished items to the teacher are nice, and help productivity, but are nothing you can't do on the home computer as well.

      Lots of stuff looks impressive when you first see it, then you realize it is more flash than substance.

    44. Re:Common sense = none by Spy+Handler · · Score: 1

      You mean spending millions on Ipads

      Billions, with a B. Spent in one city, Los Angeles. We're not talking nationwide here. And guess how the test scores are in the lovely public schools of Los Angeles?

      It seems to me there's an inverse correlation here. Yes to have effective schools you need money, you gotta pay teacher salaries and buy textbooks and so on. But after a certain point, more money poured into schools seems to degrade education rather than improve it. Public schools in DC and Los Angeles have some of the highest per-student budget in the country, and they also have some of the lowest test scores and graduation rates. And on a national level, U.S. is the top money spender per student in the world (or pretty close to it) but test scores are at the bottom of countries that aren't dirt-poor.

    45. Re: Common sense = none by pr0fessor · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I have five sons the oldest never had a cell phone, the Internet was dial-up, and had limited access to Internet and technology most of his high school years. The youngest is still in high school has a 5.5 in cell phone with more features than a computer of the early 90s and unlimited Internet access. All of my sons are different but the oldest and youngest are like night and day and it has everything to do with the distraction of technology and a society built on the ideals of instant information and instant gratification. He has trouble studying unless you take away his cell phone.

      FYI the youngest thinks weblogs are somehow accurate...I'll take a Chilton's manual over Joe Blows weblog any day.

    46. Re:Common sense = none by Spy+Handler · · Score: 1

      Once you correct for the things that DO matter (IQ of biological parents and family income) all of that correlation vanishes.

      Sorry but you're about a decade behind in terms of progressive political correctness. What you said is so 2005. Modern social science has shown that IQ does not exist. If you insist that it exists or that some people are smarter than others, you're a racist.

    47. Re:Common sense = none by ADRA · · Score: 1

      Putting all that aside, learning on computers is just yet another thing to learn. Taking time away from learning core princples may actually be beneficial if those tertiary disciplines are rewarding to the individual in the long run, but may not improve the quality of 'core' curriculum.

      1. Calculators make tests without calculators a lot harder but are essential to any disipline. In all but the earliest grades, calculators are all but required for modern schools' math programs. This wasn't always the case. I still remember being limited in what I could bring to tests (sci calc's earlier, prog. calc's later).
      2. Computer research makes history and research a lot easier, but if you need to use rote memorization for a given test; it's effects would probably hurt their ability to memorize.

      In the long run, we'll need to address how we can effectively introduce technology into core testing in ways that are effective and yet restricted enough to eliminate cheating. Mind you, depending on the subject, good 'cheating' (aka referencing) can actually be considered a skill to strive for, not one to be surpressed.

      --
      Bye!
    48. Re:Common sense = none by ememisya · · Score: 1

      I think we should Google that. Now where's that computer?

    49. Re: Common sense = none by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 3

      "Just as the best way to ensure your kid sees reading as anything other than a chore is for you to read for pleasure regularly (for which read: pretty much whenever opportunity allows)."

      I don't know if it's the BEST way, but it is *A* way.

      Actually, it kinda *is* the BEST way.

      There have been a lot of studies on this sort of thing. I remember in particular a study that looked at parental interventions vs. random aspects of home environment in their impacts on success in school and on standardized tests.

      Things like "Parents make an effort to read to their kid every night" often don't make any statistically significant difference. But things like "Number of books in the home" have a high positive correlation with success for kids.

      It's not that having huge number of books in your house magically transports that knowledge into kids' brains, of course. But homes with a lot of books are more likely to have parents who are curious people, read a lot, etc.

      In other words -- your kids' success is mostly dependent on the kind of person you are, and much less so on active intervention parents take because they think some study said you should read to your kid every night.

      Don't get me wrong: obviously you sound like you've done some great things with your kids, and that probably succeeded because you already are the kind of person with the creativity and thoughtfulness to make such an activity helpful. So keep doing what you're doing.

      But when it comes to advising people IN GENERAL about the best thing they can do for their kids? Well, they should try to be the kind of person they want their kids to be, first and foremost. Before kids become teenagers, in particular, modeling is one of the most effective parental strategies.

    50. Re:Common sense = none by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You wouldn't last a cold second as a kid these days. Stop kidding yourself that you would.

    51. Re: Common sense = none by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 2

      Some research suggests it's only one parent - the mother - and her level of education that has an effect on future educational out comes.

      If this "research" actually existed, you could have provided a link to it. Yet you didn't.

      Don't be a jerk. In your previous post, you only provided a link to a random blog, which was reporting on a book that discussed a study, rather than an actual source. And the blog even disagreed with your conclusion!

      Meanwhile, somebody replies and tries to add something, and you act like a complete jerk, with you scare quotes around "research" for no apparent reason.

      Do a freakin' internet search, Bill. Top 20 hits on a search like "mother's education impact on child", I found at least 4 or 5 more reputable sources than your random blog that say that when you actually try to separate out the effects of parents' educational level, mother's education is generally MUCH more significant in child success.

      Now, I have no doubt there are probably some studies out there which disagree, since this is a hard thing to measure. But it took me all of 5 seconds in a search engine to come up with half a dozen articles for the "research" you tried to imply doesn't exist.

    52. Re:Common sense = none by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Same thing is happening in the U.S., just along different lines. The girls are doing relatively well, the boys are failing.

    53. Re: Common sense = none by hackwrench · · Score: 1

      a 5.5 in cell phone

      At first I read that in a way that makes sense if there was a school that graded from 0 to 6 and offered a class called "cell phone".

      I'll take a Chilton's manual over Joe Blows weblog any day.

      Not very familiar with Chilton's manual except they deal with car information, one manual per car. Just checked their website, and it appears to be needlessly confusing. Conversely there are weblogs with accurate information about the topics they cover and others that are not.

    54. Re: Common sense = none by hackwrench · · Score: 1

      I never get how people think they know the details of the home lives of others. I also don't get how they think it's reasonable to generalize to any great extent. And you picked a great extent to generalize Asia covers most of Russia, Chinese urban dwellers and farmers (the two groups of Chinese I hear the most about, but there are no doubt others. North Korea, often derisively called Best Korea, South Korea, Vietnam, Japan Taiwan and Hong Kong, as long as you count islands off the coast of Asia part of Asia, which I hear frequently enough, Thailand... and those are just the areas I can think of off the top of my head. I know that Hong Kong is politically a part of China, but it's an island and still has many influences from their time as a British holding that makes them distinct from the other two groups.

    55. Re: Common sense = none by Jhon · · Score: 1

      " But things like "Number of books in the home" have a high positive correlation with success for kids."

      Heh. I *do* have over 3000 books.

    56. Re:Common sense = none by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Live in ghetto, am minority, can confirm. We are pretty tough on our 14 year old and DEMAND good grades. His friends parents... not so much. They pretty much check out once their kids hit middle school.

      How many hours per week do you and your wife work? How many do his friend's parents? When two earners working fulltime is barely enough to get by, of course the kids aren't going to get the attention they need.

    57. Re:Common sense = none by hackwrench · · Score: 1

      Out of curiosity, how did you come by associating one manufacturer of pencils with a #2 pencil?

    58. Re:Common sense = none by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As someone else mentioned above, the government encourages people that should not be having children do to just that. One of the guys at my work has a pregnant girlfriend and they have no interest in marriage because then she couldn't go after government freebies as easily. Pretty sad but there it is.

    59. Re: Common sense = none by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "Note that the easiest ways parents can convince you to want to learn is to want to learn themselves."

      Yes. There's the old saying about educating being what you do to your offspring when you are looking the other way. Example, not lessons.

    60. Re:Common sense = none by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "The vast majority of poor people in America aren't anywhere close to starving. In fact, most of them are obese and eat way more than necessary."

      Most of them are obese and eat way *worse* than necessary.

      There, corrected for you.

    61. Re: Common sense = none by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "your kids' success is mostly dependent on the kind of person you are"

      Yes. Either rich or poor.

    62. Re:Common sense = none by tbannist · · Score: 1

      Its not computers, magnet schools, charter schools, teacher pay, higher taxes or any of those even when statistics sometimes hint at showing otherwise.

      All of these things could have impacts, for instance computer usage has a bell curve effect at the low and high ends achievement suffers but there's a middle ground where grades actually improve. Teacher pay that is too low leaves you with incompetent or money-stressed teachers who are poorly focused on the students.

      The commonality is involved parents who help their kids when struggle, demand they toe the line when they get hardheaded, and have expectations for success. Its just not politically correct to say so because parent involvement lines up so closely with racial lines. Not exact, but close enough.

      It's unfortunate, but that is apparently not actually true. In the study I just linked, involved parents did not have any statistically significant impact on their kids, punishing bad grades had no impact, rewarding good grades had no impact, helping your children with homework had no impact. Also observed was that parental involvement did not actually line up on racial lines. Hispanic parents were as involved as Asian parents, for example, despite the Asian children outperforming the Hispanic children.

      The things they found that actually helped? Reading to your young children and having positive role models (especially when the parents associate with other educated adults who are successful). Interesting results.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    63. Re:Common sense = none by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    64. Re:Common sense = none by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Working two jobs, eh? Then how do the Asians do it? They work their asses off, 80+ hours a week at their restaurant, laundry, whatever they decided to do for a living, and still manage to beat (or raise) their kids into a work ethic.

      "Poverty" my ass. "Race" my ass. It's all about culture.

    65. Re:Common sense = none by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      If you want to learn, you will. If not, nothing will help you.

      Frankly I think that's grossly oversimplifying. I like learning, and I've done a lot of it and continue to do so. I learned programming as a kid because it was there and interesting.

      I also loves easy, distracting things. I did not have a lot of games, and it was too early for internet access to be always on and fast.

      Honestly, I don't know how well I would have done if I grew up now. I think kids have it *really* hard these days with the internet. For me the choice was easy. I could either do some programming (which I admittedly enjoyed), or... well... that's it. I mean I could re-play E1M8 one more time to see if I could kill the barons with a chainsaw THIS time, but honestly, programming was the only thing with novelty.

      If I had grown up a decade or two later, I wonder how I would have fared. I have an easily distracted personality (something I've worked to overcome), and frankly so do many people and especially kids. Back then, there was nothing to really get distracted with. If I was cracking my head over some 6502 ASM I couldn't pop online to look for answers, get distracted by you tube and chat to some friends. I mean I guess I could have wandered downstairs and phoned someone (though that would have been a bit weird) or gone and got into a book, but that was hardly an easy distracting activity.

      So yes, a desire to learn is crucial and without it you won't. But there's more to learning than just a desire. Environment helps and in that respect, kids have it harder than many many people here growing up when it comes to learning.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    66. Re:Common sense = none by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      I don't know what you mean. They work perfectly. 100% perfect, 9.9988213723 times out of 10.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    67. Re:Common sense = none by gweihir · · Score: 1

      The best can do well if just given access to information. We had an excellent school library. I spend most of my free time there. It provided much more of the foundations I use today than school itself. For the rest, good teachers (still the exceptions) are as critical as pupils that have their head free to learn and are motivated to learn and for that, parents and their attitudes are extremely critical.

      In parents, their education, their intelligence, their cultural background (and here race comes in strongly) determine what positive influence they can have on their children's academic achievements.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    68. Re:Common sense = none by gweihir · · Score: 1

      The problem here are parents that just do what most of the other parents around them do, without any strategic thinking. Kudos to you for giving your kid a real shot at what this world has to offer!

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    69. Re:Common sense = none by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      In the UK, the main thing that predicts parental involvement is social class. But of course, you don't have a class system in the US, as everyone is rich, so maybe it depends on race there.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    70. Re:Common sense = none by delt0r · · Score: 1

      It progresses any 401k with shares in apple.

      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
    71. Re:Common sense = none by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      The point about IQ is that it's meaningless. If you want to test someone's mathematical ability, you give them a maths test. Same with spelling or music. there are problems with the idea of tests too (like people being coached to pass exams rather than actually learn things properly) but at least you're attempting to measure something specific.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    72. Re:Common sense = none by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Households in the top quintile, have, on average, 2.1 people employed

      Are there really that many families with three or more parents?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    73. Re:Common sense = none by tehcyder · · Score: 1
      I think a lot of your points are subject to the classic correlation!=causation meme so beloved of slashdotters in other contexts.

      For example, if you have a professional career and are well-educated, you are far more likely to have kids after 22 than before simply because you will have been too busy before then. And if you have a professional career you have a very high probability of not being poor.

      In itself, having kids after 22 doesn't prove anything. If I get sent to prison at the age of 16 and serve ten years, it's not likely I'll have kids before 22

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    74. Re:Common sense = none by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Working two jobs, eh? Then how do the Asians do it? They work their asses off, 80+ hours a week at their restaurant, laundry, whatever they decided to do for a living, and still manage to beat (or raise) their kids into a work ethic.

      "Poverty" my ass. "Race" my ass. It's all about culture.

      It's great that a vast populous continent like Asia produces people who are all so perfectly stereotypical, isn't it?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    75. Re:Common sense = none by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I'm going to say that what's loaded on the iPad isn't the crucial thing, it's having an educational plan that the iPad fits into. Throwing computers into a school curriculum is not going to work, because at that point they're distractions without a corresponding purpose. My son's engineering courses in high school had computers and featured a 3D printer, and those were good because they enabled the kids to work like real engineers. There are also computer-related skills that are important, such as typing, general GUI ability, word processing, and online research. Aside from skills like that, exactly what purpose would the iPad serve? If somebody has an actual good answer for that, the iPad is likely to be useful when used for that.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    76. Re: Common sense = none by Jhon · · Score: 1

      Sorry. Disagree. I was from a poor working family (with a ton of other issues, too). I was homeless for a good year. I had enough cash for food, to get a hotel room once or twice a week AND pay for school books/tuition working part time. What I didn't do is spend my money on drugs, booze or waste my time "hanging out" or "partying".

      By "rich", do you mean home owner? Then yes. I own an average valued home. I make a bit above an average wage in my area. I drive the same truck I purchased over 25 years ago. I work more than 8 hours a day (as does my wife) and we BOTH care for and are involved with our children's lives. That's how rich we are.

      Yet, now -- I'm married, two kids, own a home, etc etc etc. There were no books in my my home when I was growing up. I 'discovered' that escape when I was 10 or 11. Probably saved me from repeating the same poor judgements of many of my family members.

    77. Re:Common sense = none by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The reason you'll find people with money on skid row is pretty much mental illness, which is often way underserved by health plans and often still carries a social stigma. We as a society need to treat it much better.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    78. Re:Common sense = none by Reziac · · Score: 1

      When I was vetting hardware for the local PC club, a lot of the donations were PCs junked by the local (SoCal) school system. So I tried out a bunch of this "learning software" meant for gradeschooler and middle-schoolers. And what I noted across the board is that the software encourages not learning the subject, but learning how to make the software spit up the desired response. BIG difference.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    79. Re: Common sense = none by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "Sorry. Disagree." ...and then follows an explanation about how Jhon, coming from a poor household, despite of his awareness of the situation, his strong will to go out of it and his long hours worked all of his life, is neither rich nor successful.

      If I wanted to reinforce my point, I wouldn't be able to do a better job than you, mate!

    80. Re:Common sense = none by barrygrommit · · Score: 1

      Its not computers, magnet schools, charter schools, teacher pay, higher taxes or any of those even when statistics sometimes hint at showing otherwise. The commonality is involved parents who help their kids when struggle, demand they toe the line when they get hardheaded, and have expectations for success. Its just not politically correct to say so because parent involvement lines up so closely with racial lines. Not exact, but close enough.

      Agreed - the parents are the most important parameter in this equation. Second parameter is the quality of the other students. Engaged, respectful, attentive...these students pull up all others. All other research I have seen says the school building, start times, teacher expertise, size of administration, computing equipment, ... even the football team... are far down the list of important items.

    81. Re:Common sense = none by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree. Computers are just a tool, not a means to and end. Parental involvement and expectations are key. Just like handing a brand new shiny expensive hammer to someone doesn't make them a better carpenter. A master carpenter acting as a mentor for someone will make them a better carpenter because they can be involved and they expect certain levels of progress.

    82. Re: Common sense = none by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would say being poor 25 years ago is a lot different than being poor today.

      You hear about old people making $3.25 minimum wage and making it up to middle class after putting themselves through college. That struggle is way harder today on minimum wage. Waaay different. I think you are smart enough that I don't have to list why.

    83. Re: Common sense = none by Jhon · · Score: 1

      Richer and far more successful than my parents -- and -- my apologies, I consider myself quite successful. I pay my bills, I own a home. I raise my family and a participate in my community. My household brings in bit less than 2x the median income for my state/city -- and I bring in a bit more than the average wage). I have a decent retirement account. We ENJOY our leisure time. Yet, I do not consider myself "rich" (nor would anyone else) -- which is the point I made and you missed entirely. And I illustrated that I came from not only modest means but a broken home.

      I was the first in my family to finish high-school -- never mind go to college. And I did so without accumulating any debt and selecting a topic of study that had a decent shot of paying well. I expect, if I've done a decent job, my children will surpass my accomplishments. How that cannot be a 'success' I do not know.

      As as far as being "rich", what do you consider 'rich'? The top 1%? If that's the case, seriously -- how is that any real measure? Or is your measure of "success" measured not in providing for your family and teaching THEM how to provide for themselves but in how must "stuff" you can accumulate?

    84. Re: Common sense = none by Jhon · · Score: 1

      I know the reasons you would list "why". I disagree with them because it's not the WAGE that's really the issue.

      If you don't want to be poor, don't have kids before you are 18. Don't have kids before you are married. Don't have kids before you finish college. Raise kids together (2 parent household).

      Each one of those will give a significant statistical jump to make sure you should never be poor. I think you are smart enough that *I* don't have to list why.

    85. Re: Common sense = none by kenh · · Score: 1

      The secret to academic success is simple: be born to smart, rich parents.

      You've never spent much time with the children of rich parents, have you. I have, the richer the parents, the dumber the kid. I had classmates whose last names were on major consumer products and named partners at national brokerage firms, the kids were dumber than a box of hammers.

      The poorest kids in my school were the ones on full scholarship, they typically had GPAs of 4.0 or better.

      --
      Ken
    86. Re: Common sense = none by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "Richer and far more successful than my parents -- and -- my apologies, I consider myself quite successful."

      Yes, of course. But you should be *proud* of your achievements instead, and "quite" is a good adjective here.

      The first post was about "success" and "rich", no qualifications. You are probably American, so I'll try to put it in American terms (sorry if there are any inaccuracies; I'm not American, but I you'll get the idea): I think there were about 30 teams in the American Professional Football League. Without other qualifications, "success" is winning the Superbowl, "quite successful" reaching to the Superbowl. Ranking 12th out of 30 is *not* success, even if it can be quite an achievement to be proud of if that's the case for one of the semi-professional teams.

      "As as far as being "rich", what do you consider 'rich'?"

      While the exact amount of money required changes with time, there has always been a valid definition: Rich is the one that doesn't need to consider how much money owns nor needs to think about how is he going to feed himself and his beloved ones for the rest of hims and their lives . Do you need to do your numbers in order to make ends meet? You are not rich. Note that this definition can be "abused" as the old saying goes: "rich is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least". Again, this bears no meaning in a non-qualified context: there are people who own private jets and there are people without. Guess who are the rich ones?

      "Or is your measure of "success" measured not in providing for your family and teaching THEM how to provide for themselves but in how must "stuff" you can accumulate?"

      Again that's something to be proud of, specially if earned against rough conditions, but that's not success. On one hand, success -in this context, should be a very limited thing or it bears no meaning -it's the gold medal, or at least getting a medal; simply being in the middle of the pack can't count. On the other, success is your ability to get your will accomplished without hindrances. The more successful you are, the less limits for your will (how do you make use of that power is quite a different business). I bet your will stomps against walls each and every day, just like mine and almost everybody else's: your boss, your inability to buy that gift you know your son would love, or sending him to the school or university that best matches his abilities and the provides the easiest future for him...

      But it disturbs me the recent discourse about the one-percenters and the redefinition of success and richness: it's not only that the gap between the rich and powerful and everybody else has been constantly growing in the last 30 years or so, but that middle class is starting to accept in the last two-three years that's the new order of things so they feel lucky, and successful and rich when that's not only far from true but farther each day that goes by. That's still mainly an American-only event, but I have no doubt it will spread to other occidental nations in the near future.

    87. Re: Common sense = none by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your children look up to you. They emulate you. They want to be like you. At least for the first 10 years or so of life,after which they're adult and trying to find out where they fit and are STILL relating that to you (by rebelling, they relate it to "Where you are not").

      So reading, exercise, gardening, whatever, is best done by your own enjoyment of it.

      Why did girls want to play house? Pretend they're like Mum.

    88. Re:Common sense = none by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "What do you want, more social nets?"

      Yes.

      If you have to work several jobs to earn enough for one income, you're

      a) taking away a job from someone else, that person being on welfare
      b) are being hideously underpaid

      Moreover, you pride yourself on high GDP, so there's absolutely no problem with paying for it: you keep saying you're loaded.

      And if you're a "job creator", educated workers have higher productivity, so your employees will bring in more money, from which you take as much as possible as your "reward" for employing them. So you win out in the end.

    89. Re:Common sense = none by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And who is afraid of the Noble, inert gasses?

  5. Thank you by TWX · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "The organization warns that classroom technology can be a distraction if implemented unwisely..."

    I've been saying this for a decade. If the computer that the student uses is a general-purpose computer and can do 10,000 things, of which only one thing is that which the student should be doing, the student is going to be overwhelmingly tempted to do one of the rest of those 9,999 things instead, especially if that other thing is more fun.

    Software for teaching computers needs to be developed. It needs to limit the available options to the lessons and only a few diversions, like how computers were before they were networked in schools.

    --
    Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    1. Re:Thank you by F34nor · · Score: 2

      Give em a command line, a compliler, and a programming language. If they want multi purpose make em make it.

    2. Re:Thank you by Drethon · · Score: 2

      This student got a 4.0 in a CS Master's degree while mining in Eve Online during most each class. If I try to take notes on paper and focus on what the professor is saying I'll end up with most going in one ear and out the other while my mind wanders and when I try to focus I only get meaningless words. If I play a game that takes limited focus I was less distracted and able to think about the concepts rather than the words. I tried MxO at one point also but active participation games did not work well for me.

    3. Re:Thank you by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 2

      That I think is more like what you see in the studies that show doodling helps concentration. Its just enough extra work to keep the mind from truly drifting. I don't think its necessarily related to the technology you are using. I believe the doodling thing, I used to do it a lot during classes and meetings.

      http://content.time.com/time/h...

    4. Re:Thank you by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Computers do what they are programmed/allowed to do. When I started using computers, there was no Internet. None of the computers in school were connected to anything, other than one modem on the teacher's desk in high school, until I got to college, and they were all connected all the time. There's no reason they have to be connected 100% of the time.

    5. Re:Thank you by twistedcubic · · Score: 1

      Did you just refer to yourself as "This student"?

    6. Re:Thank you by TWX · · Score: 1

      There are lots of reasons to be networked, even for specific-purpose computers. For education, simply being able to use any random kiosk or tablet on the network to pick-up where one left-off instead of being tied to a specific device is already a good reason.

      The problem comes about when an attempt to satisfy that good reason becomes an avenue for a whole bunch of bad consequences.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    7. Re:Thank you by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      This student made the president's list for maintaining a 4.0 G.P.A. in a Computer Programming A.S. degree while taking two classes per semester for five years, working 80 hours a week a lead video game tester, and occasionally teaching Sunday school.

    8. Re:Thank you by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 0

      He flunked English while getting his CS degree. There's a difference between referring yourself in the third-person and using self in class method. Some programmers never learn that.

    9. Re:Thank you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's a difference between referring yourself in the third-person and using self in class method.

      Of course there is. You're a singleton. You have a static reference to your only instance, accessible internally to the class as either the static instance or this. And since you're writing the code, it's your choice which one to use!

      English isn't really all that far off from that. You can either refer to "this guy" (static instance: "Who's bangin' your sister? This guy.") or you can use pronouns (this pointer: "I just banged your sister."), and they both are technically correct.

    10. Re:Thank you by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      For education, simply being able to use any random kiosk or tablet on the network to pick-up where one left-off instead of being tied to a specific device is already a good reason.

      Yeah, we had that in the '80s. The network was called "sneakernet" and any computer would pick up where you left off, you just had to save and take your floppy with you. A USB stick per student (All of $5 for a 4GB at overpriced stores) and you have all that you've asked for, without any network.

    11. Re:Thank you by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Ah yes, the safe and secure USB stick.

      Whatcouldpossiblygowrong?

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    12. Re:Thank you by TWX · · Score: 1

      What if I don't have a sister?

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    13. Re:Thank you by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      For education, simply being able to use any random kiosk or tablet on the network to pick-up where one left-off instead of being tied to a specific device is already a good reason.

      I keep hearing this from people who have evidently never heard two words, which should be very familiar to anyone who's attended public school in the US, and blow this straight out the water: assigned seating.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    14. Re:Thank you by Drethon · · Score: 1

      And my misuse of proper English failed to convey the intent how?

    15. Re:Thank you by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      And my misuse of proper English failed to convey the intent how?

      I, for one, assumed you were referring to someone else, although it was impossible to tell who. Causing such initial confusion in your reader means they are unlikely to take the effort to read everything you wrote.

      I deliberately went back to read your whole post to prove to myself that your misuse of English genuinely had distorted your meaning, and I was right. Normally, I would just have stopped reading and gone on to the next post.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    16. Re:Thank you by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Ah yes, the safe and secure USB stick.

      Whatcouldpossiblygowrong?

      There are things called passwords and back ups. And it's not like school pupils will be carrying around state secrets.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    17. Re:Thank you by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I'm a C++ guy, you insensitive clod! We don't use "self", we use "this".

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    18. Re:Thank you by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      Python uses "self" and "other". Being a somewhat flexible language, you could probably get away with using "this" and "that" instead.

      http://bytes.com/topic/python/answers/816999-do-i-need-self-other

  6. They need to update the tests. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's pretty obvious to anyone with a brain that if they are using the same tests they used before computers were introduced, of course the students will do better on those tests if they don't use computers as much in their learning activities. I'd like to see them create a tests specifically geared towards computer skills and compare how well kids do on them with only a little and lot of computer use. I think you'd see much better results.

    1. Re:They need to update the tests. by TWX · · Score: 2

      Many scholastic benchmarks are already computer-based.

      Your argument is about as strong as saying kids do badly on tests because they don't use bubble-sheets for learning.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
  7. Teaching to the Test by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    While I don't have an opinion on whether scholastic computer use is a net positive or a net negative, I think this may be a case of optimizing for the benchmark.

    The question I have is who good are these tests at predicting success in the real world? There are a lot of life skills that aren't captured in an SAT score.

    1. Re:Teaching to the Test by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. Computers and the Internet open the young to freedom and the diversity of the world, both past and current, fostering individuality and independence. Of course this means distraction from more basic knowledge, particularly when taught in the most stupid ways, in the rigid context of today schools, with old farts often rejecting all the fun which can be experienced thanks to computers and the Internet, and even other youngsters, through imitation, chastising anyone straying too far from their norm of mediocrity.

      Teaching boring, negating fun. Calling it success in life. In truth, death. Slave training.

  8. Makes Sense by sycodon · · Score: 1

    Computers are to the brain as a front end loader is to the construction worker. It replaces the manual labor.

    But since results are measured without access to computers, then the students must rely on their poorly exercised brain.

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    1. Re:Makes Sense by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      I wonder if just the mismatch between teaching and testing methods accounts for some of the difference. If the test is paper-and-pencil, you might expect students who were taught using pen-and-pencil methods to do better than those taught mainly using computer-based methods, even if the two worked just as well, because the first group of students are more used to doing the work in the same setting as the test will use.

  9. I actually RTFA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    but I still think it was a dumb conclusion because it is simply treating correlation as causation. The raw data does not show anything about what the computers were used for or what teaching methods were employed. If they were just digital babysitters then naturally the effect would be nil. You could probably come up with the similar statistics for "books" or relative desk area or minutes spent in class.

  10. It allways seemed likely to be the case. by ewibble · · Score: 1

    Society tends to think that throwing money a problem will somehow improve things. Don't get me wrong up to a point it does, but after that there is very little return for dollar spent. And in most schools, in most first world countries that point has long since been reached especially ones that can afford computers for every student.

    Currently computers are no replacement for the two way communication that happens when an actual person is teaching you.

    1. Re:It allways seemed likely to be the case. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Throwing money at the problem will fix it, but only after folks correctly identify the problem. The root cause is low teacher salaries. It is hard to attract the best and brightest when you pay them dirt. This is not to say that there aren't a lot of very good teachers, but rather that you would have a higher percentage of exceptional teachers if so many of the best and brightest didn't reject the idea of teaching right off the bat because of poor salaries.

      Of course, raising salaries won't fix the problem immediately. Even if teacher salaries doubled overnight, and even if people immediately recognized teaching as a viable career option, it would still take at least four years for those folks to go through college and get their teaching certificates. Realistically, it will take decades of paying teachers higher-than-industry wages before the problem will truly be fixed.

    2. Re:It allways seemed likely to be the case. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The question is "why did they throw money in this particular way?" Why was the extra school budget spent on "iPads for everyone" and such (instead of better desks, chairs, gyms...) on a wide scale when no pilot study demonstrating improved results existed?

  11. Shocking ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Its shocking to discover that throwing technology at something did not make it better. How could the marketing and sales people get that wrong?

    Seriously how many examples do we need that people more familiar with operations, be that tech people in corporate and industrial environments or educators in educational environment, need to be more involved in decisions? Anyone who spent five minutes sitting in the back of a classroom knows that if you give students a computer or tablet they will immediately be bring up social apps, sports scores, and uh ... other things ... unrelated to the lecture or assignment.

    1. Re:Shocking ... by MrKrillls · · Score: 1

      I agree with the point.

      --
      Don't step on the baby.
  12. Of course not computers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All the hip school districts have moved on to iPads. They obviously help kids learn.

  13. Parents suck too by grub · · Score: 3, Insightful

    How many of these parents work with their kids when at home? How many let the kids to go their room and play on the iPad or xbox and only see them at dinner? Or are too busy driving them to useless and expensive team sports events?

    Education requires major input from the parents but many of them treat the schools like babysitters and get mad at the teachers when their kids can barely read.

    --
    Trolling is a art,
    1. Re:Parents suck too by thegarbz · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Or are too busy driving them to useless and expensive team sports events?

      Was with you right up until this point. Team sports and sports in general are neither useless nor expensive. Maybe a small minority of them are disproportionately so but people learn a lot from team sports and fitness improves cognitive ability to boot.

    2. Re:Parents suck too by grub · · Score: 1

      I meant using teams and coaches as expensive babysitters or allowing the kids to do that stuff without ensuring their more important school work is done.

      --
      Trolling is a art,
    3. Re:Parents suck too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or are too busy driving them to useless and expensive team sports events?

      Was with you right up until this point. Team sports and sports in general are neither useless nor expensive. Maybe a small minority of them are disproportionately so but people learn a lot from team sports and fitness improves cognitive ability to boot.

      Whaddaya expect from someone who calls himself "grub"?

      He'd probably get sunburnt from a 60W light bulb, needs help to pop the top on his cans of Mountain Dew, and would get the bends if he tried to climb the stairs out of his parent's basement.

    4. Re:Parents suck too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or are too busy driving them to useless and expensive team sports events?

      Was with you right up until this point. Team sports and sports in general are neither useless nor expensive. Maybe a small minority of them are disproportionately so but people learn a lot from team sports and fitness improves cognitive ability to boot.

      That's right. Team sports teach you to accept your place at work. Everyone should support the star because if he/she wins, we all win.

      That's what I saw in team sports. I didn't see a whole lot that applied to real life. It seems that the only people who really think teams sports are important are those who watch teams sports on TV. Before you jump to conclusions, I played baseball, soccer and tennis in highschool. Great for being part of a click (which I guess is important for some jobs), but not for a whole lot more.

      I would agree that fitness is extremely important. I didn't notice it when I was younger, but at 50 I can how being unfit affects my work. Trying to change that is a bitch.

    5. Re:Parents suck too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or are too busy driving them to useless and expensive team sports events?

      Was with you right up until this point. Team sports and sports in general are neither useless nor expensive. Maybe a small minority of them are disproportionately so but people learn a lot from team sports and fitness improves cognitive ability to boot.

      That's right. Team sports teach you to accept your place at work. ...

      You sound like someone who SUCKED.

    6. Re:Parents suck too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bet you sucked a lot of cock in the locker rooms.
      Geeks run the world now, most high school jocks are pushing brooms at walmart

    7. Re:Parents suck too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Team sports teach kids how to suck down their future corporate overlords dicks. Teaches a value system based on false dichotomies, (we do this for the fun of sport, but are extatic If we are champions and get drawn out we can do better speeches of not). No independent thinking, total adherence to whatever asshole is barking orders at them.

      Have fun railroading and conditioning your kids brains for a paradigm of servitude.

    8. Re: Parents suck too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lol. Still beating that dead horse? Geeks do not run anything: they slave away on their stupid machines hours after hours for an ever-dwindling wage, while smart people sit in management and outsource their jobs to India.

  14. Recess helps, lunch helps, teachers help by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Computers rarely help. Ever.

    Now watch as those whose salaries are paid by pushing more computers and testing post lies that aren't backed by peer reviewed scientific studies, to feather their nests.

    "the More you Know"

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    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    1. Re:Recess helps, lunch helps, teachers help by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Nooooooooooooooo! No you fucktard! Computers are important! We must teach programming and computers to first graders! Otherwise they won't magically learn critical thinking--definitely not problem solving by rote to pass their programming classes--and will become more sheeple!

      We need to cram computers in every orifice big enough to take a mouse up it in every child in every school in America!

    2. Re:Recess helps, lunch helps, teachers help by TemporalBeing · · Score: 1

      Mod parent up.

      Seriously:
      1. Recess helps as it lets the brain absorb some of what is learned; it also lets the kids get rid of any energy so they can actually pay attention to what is being taught (and do so without drugs!)
      2. Lunch helps because they need energy to learn, etc - e.g not falling asleep in class - and live.
      3. Teachers help because someone actually needs to teach something.

      Too many tests (ala No Child Left Behind) don't help because then you're not testing the students, you're testing the test, and hoping there's some time left for students to learn something in between the tests.

      It's also been shown that:
      A. Use of computers for note taking reduces learning when compared to hand-written notes as students tend to try to record verbatim what is being said instead of actually thinking about it and writing something meaningful down that summarizes what is said in a manner the student understands, which can then be verified to be correct (if necessary). B. Use of computers tends to be a distraction since computer users will mostly likely get board and bring up Solitaire/NetFlix/YouTube/etc instead of actually participating in the educational process.

      And yes, as my wife and I look for schools for our kids - even as a programmer - we are looking for one that uses technology to a minimum:
      i. teaches kids how to type at an appropriate age
      ii. teaches kids how to use technology as a tool for their other work, not relying on it for the work

      IOW, no "do all your homework/tests/note-taking on the computer", use of a computer is restricted to the computer lab for use during the classes that use the lab, and students do not have computers readily available to them at all times; math class is taught without a calculator and then a calculator is introduced to make things faster, only after they know how to do the work without it.

      --
      Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
    3. Re:Recess helps, lunch helps, teachers help by konohitowa · · Score: 2

      Computers rarely help. Ever.

      Citation? Or are those only required for

      those whose salaries are paid by pushing more computers and testing post[ing] lies that aren't backed by peer reviewed scientific studies

      ?

    4. Re:Recess helps, lunch helps, teachers help by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      So, google search terms don't work where you are? Really?

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    5. Re:Recess helps, lunch helps, teachers help by ledow · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I work in schools.
      I work IT in schools.
      I work exclusively in schools.
      I've only ever worked in schools.
      I've worked in private and state, primary, secondary, further education, and after-school tuition centres.

      Computers are a tool. Like a pen, a textbook, a folder, a table, a desk, or anything else.

      Use them properly and they can help make things more efficient. That includes teaching. Use them improperly, buy them "for show", or think they'll work some magic on their own and you'll be disappointed.

      In the same way that signing in 30 kids every morning and again in the afternoon takes ten minutes with pen and paper and lots of shuffling paper and people involved, but electronic registers take seconds and everyone who needs to can see the results instantly. It's a tool. Use it properly and it works.

      What it does NOT do is teach kids. That's what teachers do (or at least are supposed to do). A teacher with an electronic timetable, who knows how to use it, is more productive and gets more time to teach than those who are shuffling bits of paper around multiple room. A teacher who can share his document with the kids and get a collaborative result, even as part of homework without themselves being present, can work wonders.

      But what makes it work is the teacher. Not the tool. Give a carpenter or wood craftsman a cheap chisel and he can still produce a work of art. Give him the right tools and they'll be more refined and better quality and take less time. But give a chisel to a monkey and you won't get a mahogany table out of it. Computers are no different - a tool for professionals.

      The misconception is that somehow computers on their own magically transform the most mediocre of teachers into teaching geniuses with wonderfully attentive students. It's not true.

      I work in IT in schools, it's all I know and all I've ever done. Remove the IT and good teachers will still thrive and bad teachers still fail. Remove the teachers and the IT is next to fucking useless. Bear in mind that I spend vast portions of my working life at opposition to these people, that many schools have a large "teacher/non-teacher" divide that rarely gets crossed, socially or otherwise. That these people are the bane of my life.

      But still, it's the teachers that make the difference, and the way they teach. And if we can get all the crap and paperwork and tracking and other shit out of their way as much as possible, they will have more time to teach kids. It's literally an admin task. Bringing tech into the classroom "just because" is dangerous and stupid.

      The right teacher with the right tool can work wonders. But it's not the tool that's doing it. It's not the chisel that's so wonderful that it's making works of art. It's the way it's put to use.

      In the UK, schools have been expected to get in computers to meet official ratios (X computers per Y pupils). That's fucking ludicrous. They have been expected to make use of things "just because" they are there. They have been expected to fully kit out every classroom no matter the subject or how little used. We have parents who are able to use their kids school iPads as a status symbol amongst over parents in other schools. We have teachers performing death-by-powerpoint thinking it improves their teaching. It does not.

      But computers still have a place. They are merely an automation tool. A machine. That removes the repetitive burden of filling out a thousand school reports in twenty subjects. That allows the kids to manipulate 3D objects that I couldn't even get my computer to DRAW on the screen when I was a kid.

      The problem is that people think that every app on the appstores, every website they are sold, every resource available must be used for every god-damn thing. Teachers BUY lesson plans, in big books, on what apps to use and what services to sign up to, and what looks cool to senior management. And so some of them have actually stopped teaching.

      I've been fortunate enough

    6. Re:Recess helps, lunch helps, teachers help by konohitowa · · Score: 3

      Googling "computers rarely help ever" turned up no relevant hits in support of your statement. Now do you get my point? If not, here is my point: You made a sweeping, generalized statement. You also stated that anyone countering your statement is obviously someone with a vested interest in making money off of lies not backed up by scientific evidence. And yet your statement is not backed up by scientific evidence (basically, because it can't be - it's too general).

    7. Re:Recess helps, lunch helps, teachers help by imidan · · Score: 1

      Now watch as those whose salaries are paid by pushing more computers and testing post lies that aren't backed by peer reviewed scientific studies, to feather their nests.

      It started even before TFA was over. There was a marketing guy from Microsoft and a guy who is a 'head teacher' who say that this study is obviously bullshit because... computers are great!

      FTFA MS guy: "The internet gives any student access to the sum of human knowledge, 3D printing brings advanced manufacturing capabilities to your desktop"

      Yep. That's mostly true. But he doesn't even mention learning or education. WTF good is 3D printing when the problem is that students are struggling with math and reading?

    8. Re:Recess helps, lunch helps, teachers help by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      No, I don't. RTFA. Use the keywords. I'm not going to teach you to be a scientist. That's your problem.

      For example, try looking at some recent UW news articles specifically about this. Follow the scientific article links.

      If you don't know how to do any of the above, why are you commenting on this?

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    9. Re:Recess helps, lunch helps, teachers help by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      Mind you, 3D printing would allow you to print out a ruler and other material.

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    10. Re:Recess helps, lunch helps, teachers help by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Googling "computers rarely help ever"...

      Are you actually retarded?

    11. Re:Recess helps, lunch helps, teachers help by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I didn't need google to see apk make you eat your words troll http://developers.slashdot.org...

    12. Re:Recess helps, lunch helps, teachers help by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I didn't need a citation to see apk make you eat your words troll http://developers.slashdot.org...

    13. Re:Recess helps, lunch helps, teachers help by konohitowa · · Score: 1

      Do you actually understand sarcasm?

    14. Re:Recess helps, lunch helps, teachers help by konohitowa · · Score: 1

      You stated, "Computers rarely help. Ever." In wikipedia jargon, those are weasel words. Not that I would care, but you then dismissed any conflicting statements as being essentially shills. That's all. There's no need to get so uptight about it. Mostly I thought it was amusing that you hold yourself to one standard and those that disagree with you to another standard.

    15. Re:Recess helps, lunch helps, teachers help by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      I stand by what I said.

      The research backs me up.

      I don't have time to give you a PhD in Education, or even an MSW. Those are the people doing the research.

      Sorry that reality doesn't comply with your view.

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    16. Re:Recess helps, lunch helps, teachers help by konohitowa · · Score: 1

      See, you're still confused. I don't really have a view. I don't even have a dog in this race. I'm an aerospace engineer. I'm merely pointing out your sweeping generalization and inability to support it. Which, like I said, is no real big deal except you belittled others in advance for doing the same thing. And, frankly, you can't support it because you can't prove poorly defined statements like you made. Now you can try to go all dick-wagging as much as you like with appeals to authority and dismissal of others due to your own pre-defined criteria but it doesn't change the fact that you made a broad statement that's ultimately unsupportable. So go ahead and do another hand-waving dismissal, or post a dozen links in support of what you said (which are only a dozen and you need an extremely large number of all studies ever performed or the vast majority of all literature reviews ever performed to support your statement), or insult me and stalk away claiming that you're "done with me", or whatever other tactic you need to feel like you "won".

    17. Re:Recess helps, lunch helps, teachers help by imidan · · Score: 1

      If they can keep in feedstock, and maintain the machine. Which seem to be way more difficult in an education setting than just ordering a box of rulers and stuff.

      I dunno. I'm excited about the capacity for 3D printers to enable rapid prototyping and printing items downloaded from the internet. But I have a hard time connecting that with fundamental education.

    18. Re:Recess helps, lunch helps, teachers help by orlanz · · Score: 1

      Very well said. So many MBAs, administrators, consultants, and god forbid sales people forget... this is a "tool", not an AI. Not just in education, but in other fields, IT isn't seen as automation of some task, but as a replacement for human roles.

      Everything from top to bottom of the sales pitch to acquisition to implementation of IT isn't focused on making people more efficient or effective, but rather on doing a role or parts of it. So a teacher doesn't need to "teach", they just need to follow the guide, make sure the screen is being looked at, keep order in the classroom, and click "Next". The success of these programs isn't looked at holistically or linked to actual efficiency gains, but at the number of deployments or the capital expenditure.

      Technically, "doing the role" concept isn't bad itself. I think the idea that a teacher is a guide for 20% and the machine is the teaching tool for the 80% is a great concept. Unfortunately, I would say 90% of the "experts" involved in these things aren't smart enough to do the equivalent of tying their own shoes. And 99% of the user base is similarly unqualified to use these things because its all so "easy" and we saved so much by not providing any actual training.

      Simply put, there are not enough true experts in the world to properly implement these things in any one district, let alone a state or country. So I think this role replacement concept shouldn't even be entertained.... we are just too stupid to do it. Lets just stick with the already difficult but achievable stuff like attendance recording, personalized testing, additional reference material, grade tracking, remote tutoring, distributed collaboration, etc. Lets get these basics down and correct before we start planning pie-in-the-sky projects.

    19. Re:Recess helps, lunch helps, teachers help by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      (stares at cluless n00b who is using the Internet he built)

      I see.

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    20. Re:Recess helps, lunch helps, teachers help by konohitowa · · Score: 1

      Yeah. I've only been doing the 'net thing since the 80's. But thank you, Al Gore. All praise be to ye.

    21. Re:Recess helps, lunch helps, teachers help by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, I've already posted in this discussion, so I can't give this the +1 it deserves.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    22. Re:Recess helps, lunch helps, teachers help by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This. This! THIS!

      I read your comment while shaking my head and sighing as I recognized every point and every example from my own place of work.

      I work in IT in an independent school in the UK and I can fully confirm everything you have said. All of it. Every single word.

      It's actually nice to know that we're not alone here. We face _exactly_ the same issues.

    23. Re:Recess helps, lunch helps, teachers help by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Computers help with computers and a very small and specific class of specialized problems that is a tiny sub-set of what people usually run into in their lives. Using computers in teaching is not beneficial even for most subjects you have to learn when getting a CS master degree. Pen & Paper and books for study of secondary material work far better.

      I completely agree that the push for computers in education is just the usual greed and complete disregard for the harm done.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    24. Re:Recess helps, lunch helps, teachers help by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amen, brother. You have said what I came here to say, as well as I could say it. We even use some of the same analogies (woodworking).

      Folks, our students arrive to a classroom fully adept at using technology. From home systems to the phone in their pocket, they (unlike us) have spent their entire lives saturated in it. To have them arrive in that classroom and be told "technology is just a distraction, put it away", is telling them you have not adapted to a modern world, and are somewhat obsolete. When you start at that point, how is a teacher supposed to keep their student's attention?

      From another school IT person, who is lucky enough to be in a district that "gets it".

    25. Re:Recess helps, lunch helps, teachers help by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      Yeah. I've only been doing the 'net thing since the 80's. But thank you, Al Gore. All praise be to ye.

      70s.

      Slacker.

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  15. However, in special ed, they do keep them engaged by zerofoo · · Score: 4, Informative

    We've moved away from very expensive smartboards and higher-end computers in favor of cheap projectors, whiteboards, and chromebooks.

    The chromebooks are strictly for web-research, writing, spreadsheets, and presentations.

    The projectors help a teacher share content with a class during a lesson.

    We have some iPads, but we only use them to run some special-ed specific reading apps. They do help the kids read material that would otherwise be very difficult for some.

    The past few years have been filled with schools blindly deploying smartboards, iPads, and high end windows/apple laptops. Unfortunately many of these districts didn't put in enough support systems or integrate the technology into the curriculum. We are only deploying tech where we see tangible benefits to classroom activities.

  16. The only major improvement you'd get by MikeRT · · Score: 1

    Is by firing most language teachers and making students do 1 hour Rosetta Stone. When I was growing up, I don't think I ever had a Spanish class that actually even attempted to teach Spanish at the level where you could converse fluently with a 4 year old. So based on my experience, there's probably not a damn thing technology could do to screw up those subjects at most public schools.

    1. Re:The only major improvement you'd get by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When I was growing up, I don't think I ever had a Spanish class that actually even attempted to teach Spanish at the level where you could converse fluently with a 4 year old. So based on my experience, there's probably not a damn thing technology could do to screw up those subjects at most public schools.

      That's what happens when you keep failing "Spanish for 3-Year olds"

    2. Re:The only major improvement you'd get by mattventura · · Score: 1

      Because Spanish is the "easy" language class, which is a self-fulfilling prophecy. All the losers join the class because they need their language requirement, and then the class has to be dumbed down to their level. I can't even count how many times we had to revisit basic first year Spanish stuff in second year Spanish because the bottom of the class kept forgetting. It also doesn't help that most people are never really taught how English works mechanically, they just know how to speak it.

    3. Re:The only major improvement you'd get by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      Your anecdote is not data.

      I had three years of Spanish in high school, and can still converse in it reasonably well some 30-odd years later.

      So I would suggest that *your* Spanish teacher get the axe, not mine, because he apparently did quite a good job for me.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
  17. Re:However, in special ed, they do keep them engag by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My school district, on the other hand, just bought thousands of Win 7 laptops. No integration-not even AD integration-just gave them to the students. Lots are broken, and the district wonders why it doesn't help students.

  18. File that under "DUH" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    A computer is a tool. Without the education to properly use it, along with a curriculum based around how you utilize said tool, of course it won't raise scores across a broad category.

  19. Not race, economic and cultural lines ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    No not race, it has more to do with local culture. Pick your current stereotypical racial example and it can be destroyed by cultural examples. The recent immigrant who values their child's education far more than some locals. Other locals who have a more "old fashioned" valuation of a child's education. Look back 50 or 100 years and you may see vastly different attitudes and outcomes among the same local racial demographic.

    Also economics is a factor. Better schools, better teachers, access to tutors, etc. Not strictly required but they sure do help.

    Somehow, for many and irregardless of race, education has become unimportant. For many such individuals they delegate it to the school system. I literally know teachers who in parent-teacher conferences, when they tell a parent that their special little snowflake needs some extra time and help with reading or basic arithmetic, are told by a parent "that's your job not mine". We're not talking high school trigonometry either, we're talking about elementary school arithmetic.

    1. Re:Not race, economic and cultural lines ... by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      Parent AC basically fixes the race inaccuracy in the GP post.

      Parents who just don't give a shit cross all race-related boundaries. I suspect it lines up more with economics than race, but there's a lot of don't-give-a-shit parenting all over the place. Having lived in several, fairly diverse, areas of the US I can see how some places it appears to align with race. Overall though, yeah.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    2. Re:Not race, economic and cultural lines ... by SpankiMonki · · Score: 1

      Nice, to the point, post. And me without mod points. Oh well.

    3. Re:Not race, economic and cultural lines ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, in the US, poverty, race, and anti-intellectual culture are highly correlated, and it isn't that way entirely by coincidence.

    4. Re:Not race, economic and cultural lines ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, in the US, poverty, race, and anti-intellectual culture are highly correlated, and it isn't that way entirely by coincidence.

      The fact remains that correlation does not imply a racial causality, its not that simple. Political factors may actually be at work here, for example a political narrative directed at a racial demographic telling them they are disadvantaged and in need of external aid. As opposed to previous decades when the narrative directed at this demographic was one of overcoming disadvantage through their own efforts, a narrative that included education as a key effort.

      The correlation with respect to poverty probably has a causality going in the reverse direction, anti-intellectuality leading to poverty. Poverty being a disadvantage but one that can be overcome given the US' public services and social safety net.

    5. Re:Not race, economic and cultural lines ... by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      The recent immigrant ...

      Unfortunately this doesn't carry over well to the second generation according to a friend teacher of mine. Growing up in absolute poverty and/or war and risking your life to get somewhere better instills something that you don't get from watching tv and being surrounded by richer kids with ipads while you are living in a studio apartment with another family or two and eating beans every night.

    6. Re:Not race, economic and cultural lines ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The recent immigrant ...

      Unfortunately this doesn't carry over well to the second generation according to a friend teacher of mine. Growing up in absolute poverty and/or war and risking your life to get somewhere better instills something that you don't get from watching tv and being surrounded by richer kids with ipads while you are living in a studio apartment with another family or two and eating beans every night.

      The immigrant being referred to is typically the parent. In other words the parent overcomes the natural inertia of the child. I've seen plenty of native born kids in my family and friend's families who were instilled with an interest in education and were subject to high expectations with respect to grades and such despite living in poverty in the US. I've also seen that carry into a second generation of native born as they have kids and appreciate the value of what their immigrant parents did with them. Fortunately its easier for the 2nd generation since they are doing it without the poverty, and they fully realize that education is what got them out of poverty.

    7. Re:Not race, economic and cultural lines ... by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Race often has some correlation with culture. But you are right, the important thing is culture.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  20. No, but they really help the Superintendent out by NotDrWho · · Score: 2

    So you'll give me a free vacation and all I have to do is sell my district on buying a shitload of your iPads?

    I'm a believer!

    --
    SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
  21. Re:However, in special ed, they do keep them engag by thegarbz · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The past few years have been filled with schools blindly deploying smartboards, iPads, and high end windows/apple laptops. Unfortunately many of these districts didn't put in enough support systems or integrate the technology into the curriculum.

    This right here! A lot of districts are deploying technology based on sales presentations by iMarketing folk. My girlfriend is a teacher at a school where this has failed spectacularly. Next semester they start a 2 year program to phase out the iPads and replace them with something that doesn't make students cry and teachers put their firsts through the wall when doing such incredibly complicated feats such as adding a greek letter to a word document in a science assignment.

    A lot of these places were oversold on the hardware capabilities and absolutely had no idea how if at all software would support student learning.

  22. Well, *there's* a shocker. by dskoll · · Score: 1

    I would never have predicted that. I would have thought students would do much better. After all, computers are shiny.

    1. Re:Well, *there's* a shocker. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Alan Kay (his XEROX team in the 70's invented most of the "PC" as you know it). He explains the computer in a classroom well:
      http://willrichardson.com/post/47100865521/playing-chopsticks-with-technology
      http://techland.time.com/2013/04/02/an-interview-with-computing-pioneer-alan-kay/

      APRIL 4TH, 2013
      Playing Chopsticks With Technology

      Alan Kay:
      Q. Do our modern personal computing devices augment education? Have they lived up to what was foreseen in the past? Are they really helping teachers teach in the classroom?
      A. The perspective on this is first to ask whether the current educational practices are even using books in a powerful and educative way. Or even to ask whether the classroom process without any special media at all is educative.
      I would say, to a distressing extent, the answer is “no.”
      The education establishment in the U.S. has generally treated the computer (a) first as undesirable and shunned it, (b) as sort of like a typewriter, © not as a cheap but less legible textbook with smaller pages, etc. (d) as something for AP testing, (e) has not ventured into what is special about computing with reference to modeling ideas and helping to think about them.
      This in spite of pioneers such as Seymour Papert http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Papert explaining both in general (and quite a bit specifically) just what it is and how it can revolutionize education.
      I’ve used the analogy of what would happen if you put a piano in every classroom. If there is no other context, you will get a “chopsticks” culture, and maybe even a pop culture. And this is pretty much what is happening.
      In other words, “the music is not in the piano”.
      Which is exactly what Gary Stager http://stager.tv/blog and others have been saying repeatedly for a long while.
      I would add, once again, that for the “revolutionary” aspects of computing to be realized in classrooms, it must first be realized, either in concept or practice, by the adults in the room. Certainly, many kids discover and develop “revolutionary” practice on their own. But the system’s unwillingness to truly celebrate and nurture that practice stems from the adults’ lack of context not just for technology in general but computing specifically. (I wonder how many teachers and administrators even know who Alan Kay is.)
      I’m no poster child for computing in this sense either. My “preparation” as an educator was bereft of any of this context, and 95% of what I’ve learned about technology and computing came on my own, informally, pushed by my own interest to learn it.
      Even so, I’m mostly playing chopsticks. And if we’re honest about it, most of the practices and tools we talk about in this network aren’t much more than a repackaging of old practice. It’s still about us owning the process and expectations. It’s not really about giving kids a freedom to learn and create with computers.
      By the way, if you don’t think Kay is calling into question the whole enterprise, reread the first two paragraphs of his response.
      For more on Kay’s work, see his Viewpoints Research Institute website http://www.viewpointsresearch.org/index.html where he writes:
      We want to start with the teaching and learning of old and new “powerful ideas”; create much better human-computer environments that allow for authoring, sharing and representing the new ideas; create new user-interfaces that can help children and adults “learn and do” the new ideas; and, invent new, fundamental computing technologies to serve as the raw material for the next stage of the computer revolution.
      Nice.

    2. Re:Well, *there's* a shocker. by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      In other words, “the music is not in the piano”.

      </thread>

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
  23. socioeconomic, not racial by Ionized · · Score: 1

    you come off sounding like a racist asshole. the problem is socioeconomic, not racial.

    and one might postulate that worrying about where your next meal is going to come from or working 3 part time jobs might make one less able to engage with their children.

    1. Re:socioeconomic, not racial by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the problem is socioeconomic, not racial.

      Some races still do much worse even when socioeconomic factors are accounted for. This has been studied and proven repeatedly and the outcome is the same all over the world.

    2. Re:socioeconomic, not racial by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Bullshit.

      You know what one of the cheapest hobbies is? Staying in and helping your kid with their homework. Cheaper than watching tv.

  24. Ridiculous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sure, if you expect computers to be some kind of magical ingredient, "just sprinkle a pinch of computer and your kid will earn 20% higher grades!" they will never improve any results.

    Computers are tools, they are great for doing certain things, not very useful for others.
    In most cases the course needs to be designed for computer use (no, trying to teach the 80's way with a computer over the desk does not count as "designed for computer use")
    The teachers need to know their way around it (no, being able to open facebook and write a word document is not enough)
    And the users need to be given education on how to use the computer for class (no, they were not born with the knowledge and they will not acquire it by osmosis)

  25. Absolutely not shocked by ErichTheRed · · Score: 3, Insightful

    When I was in elementary school, eons ago, the most advanced computers we had were Apple ][e machines. High school gave us Macintosh SEs and IBM PS/2 model 30s. I think the difference then vs now is that we had to learn to do something useful (i.e. programming) on them to make them fun. There was LOGO, Oregon Trail and AppleWorks, but they were pretty primitive. Especially today, computers can be "consumer-only" devices and just another screen to stare blankly into.

    One thing that isn't different is that the best predictor of student success is good teachers, a good school and a decent home life with caring parents. Adding computers into the classroom without a clear purpose or reason is just a waste of money. Not because it's some kind of Luddite fantasy, but because students need to learn fundamentals before they are put in front of the computer.

    Take me for example -- I'm reasonably successful but have a serious math handicap that I developed in elementary school. Exactly how would a computer, especially a locked down one-way device like an iPad have helped me? I struggled though math all the way to a degree in chemistry, probably for the simple reason that I had crappy early math teachers that couldn't pound the basics into my thick skull. Good instruction is the key to good performance, especially in a subject like math where everything is cumulative. I have no idea how people are taught math in a way that makes it all make sense, but it would be interesting to see what's being tried now. I guess I'll find out soon since I have 2 kids about to enter elementary school!

    1. Re:Absolutely not shocked by rgbscan · · Score: 1

      Out of curiosity - did you learn the "Touch Math" method? I was in a pilot class in the very early 80's, where that pedagogy was all the rage and I'm 99% sure it's the reason I ended up math disabled. I couldn't make the leap from touch dots to real world math concepts, and to this day math takes me forever - even simple multiplication - as I have to "air touch" all those dots. It's seriously crazy.

    2. Re:Absolutely not shocked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They tried to get me on that retarded touch point shit in elementary school. Unfortunately for them, I had already learned everything I needed to know about counting, arithmetic and stupid education trends from watching Star Trek: TNG with my dad.

      To this day I think that teacher still honestly believes that there were five lights

    3. Re:Absolutely not shocked by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Somewhat later, there was a LucasLearning game called "Pit Droids". Based purely on subjective impressions (namely which parts of my mind felt like they were getting used), I'd recommend it as a math learning aid, if anyone can find a copy.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  26. Wacky idea. by xenotransplant · · Score: 1

    Could it be that *gasp* people (read: people, not just adults) are individuals and what works for little Johnny might not work for little Billy? Obviously people would reject the notion of personal responsibility when they can blame their bad scores on some esoteric organization of shadowy figures.

  27. Big surprise by blue9steel · · Score: 1

    Adding technology without changing your process doesn't change anything except your overhead.

    1. Re:Big surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep. It's not "computers" that are the problem, it's the administration. Computers are just a tool, like a pencil. If you give kids pencils, but no paper, then you get to write an article about how pencils don't improve pupils' test scores.

  28. Even in Professional School... by Etherwalk · · Score: 1

    I've been saying this for a decade. If the computer that the student uses is a general-purpose computer and can do 10,000 things, of which only one thing is that which the student should be doing, the student is going to be overwhelmingly tempted to do one of the rest of those 9,999 things instead, especially if that other thing is more fun.

    Even in professional School this is the case. If you look from the back of a large classroom in law school, you will see sports on a large number of guys' laptops and shopping on a large number of girls' laptops. Some profs ban laptops, but that's pretty rare and is a good way to get people not to take your class.

    Of course, in law school your entire grade or 90% of your grade is also based on one final exam, so they have to learn material anyway. They just might not pay as much attention to the lecture.

  29. the desktop PC in the office brings no business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it's a powerful computer with all the latest stuff but it helps not one bit.

    I suppose it would help if I turned it on, installed and learned various applications for marketing and finance but it's a computer, it's supposed to just do stuff and make things better right?

  30. Wrong! by twistedcubic · · Score: 1

    BEGIN;
    UPDATE grades SET finalexam=100;
    COMMIT;

  31. "UK's OECD"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development is an international organization, not (just) British, you stupid editors!

  32. [citation needed] by Ionized · · Score: 1

    what the subject says

    1. Re:[citation needed] by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK

    2. Re:[citation needed] by Ionized · · Score: 1

      the findings of the book are based on IQ tests given to adults. that is far too late to allow for any sort of separation of race vs socioeconomic status - the damage had already been done ten or fifteen years prior to when these tests were given.

  33. Ban computers from the schools... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

    I had to take Apple ][ Logo in the seventh grade (circa 1984). That's when I found out I came from a "poor" family because we didn't have cable TV to get MTV and I got a $250 Commodore 64 instead of a $2,500 Apple ][ for Christmas. My childhood was forever ruined.

  34. Well .. by jon3k · · Score: 1

    Without being snarky, I don't think we should write off computers yet. I think most of these programs just dump a bunch of money on laptops or ipads and are shocked when standardized test scores don't magically go up.

    A computer is a tool, not a solution. It's all about the complete system used to educate. That's the hardware, software and processes working in concert to create an effective solution for learning.

    1. Re:Well .. by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      I think the important question is, why are we placing so much emphasis on a tool which makes the situation worse? It is like a garage that insists its mechanics only use pliers and a hammer. Your statement kind of misses the point.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    2. Re:Well .. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed.

      The main thing that computers should (but generally don't get use to) do in the classroom is enable "Miss Frizzle" style teaching, where you encourage the kids to ask about whatever random thing they're interested in, and the answer is always "lets find out" followed by using available tools to find the answers through research.

      The skills that should teach are how to find information and how to evaluate sources. Once the kids develop that they can learn anything the want on their own.

  35. No shit, Sherlock. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Computers are for chumps, news at 11. They only make nerdy shitboys feel important. Take them away.

  36. No Shit, Cowboy - by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Before 1999, computers in the classroom were toys. Glorified video game consoles. Sure, they're celebrated with a nostalgic fondness - pretty much everyone who ever touched one has a soft spot for the good ol' Apple IIe and its sprawling edutainment library - but let's call them what they were. Toys.

    After 1999, when modern, fully featured Windows desktops started arriving in classrooms en masse, computers in the classroom became... more toys. More powerful toys, to be certain. Easier to break, harder to maintain, if they were maintained at all. It's hard to imagine these systems actually being a step backward from a by-then fifteen year old computer, but in a lot of respects they were. This was especially true once they started getting put online, with web access controls that, like practically all software marketed specifically to schools, didn't work and cost a fortune to deploy. (I suppose that worked in my favor since I earned a lot of extra credit by fixing them when I could. The school's IT staff performed no routine maintenance whatsoever, and the teachers, on the whole, were completely clueless. I owe more of my high school academic success to Gator than I'd like to admit.)

    Fast forward to now. It's still true. Computers in the classroom are toys. Expensive toys running overpriced, almost universally broken software that only people living in the rarefied air of upper management would ever be stupid enough to buy - that is, assuming that their motives are pure. Classroom technology has always been a vanity project for career administrators, a way of saying, "Yes, I do give a fraction of a rat's ass about education, so fawn over this grotesque misallocation of district funds while I plan my next career move and get the hell outta here." Nothing but an expensive political gesture that appeals to the masses - masses that are still convinced even today that 'technology' is a magical incantation, and that a computer is a philosopher's stone that can cure all ills. Lots of 'ooh' and 'aah' for fundraising purposes, too, can't forget that.

    As a product of the system who later went on to work for said system, I feel that I'm at least as qualified as anyone else from my generation who experienced the meteoric rise of 'classroom technology' to say that contrary to conventional non-wisdom, unless you're specifically teaching students how to operate a computer, computers need to be kept as far away from the classroom as humanly possible. They are a distraction, a baleful waste of resources, and their nearly universal deployment in classrooms has accomplished less than nothing. Use them sparingly, if at all.

  37. Test scores... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Are not a measurement of learning. Stop caring about test scores!!!

  38. Video games by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Computers are used to make learning more like video games. As for the findings in the article, how can I express this.. DUH. Was that succinct enough?

  39. Backward looking testing for Needs of the Future by Tungbo · · Score: 1

    What an incredibly MYOPIC article.
    It purports to evaluate the benefits of using computers in school based on some undefined performance metrics.  The ONLY specific metric applied is 'reading skill'.

    What if computer use improved the student's MATH skills? (Khan Academy) What if it improved critical thinking, because the student has to identify what's nonsense and what's reliable on the net? What if we can use animated dissections to teach biology? What if we are still discovering the best use of computer in education?

    Why not lament the bad penmanship of children today, since they are all typing instead of practicing freehand loops, etc. ? Trying to use last century's metrics to plan for the education of our future generation is naive at best, and reactionary at worst.

  40. Adding third worlders... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... is the cause of the 'lack of improvement'. What do you expect? The government and media lie about racial differences, we all know that Africans have invented almost NOTHING of any value, despite there being far more of them than of white people...

  41. Smart, poor parents works too. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The secret to academic success is simple: be born to smart, rich parents.

    Smart, but formally uneducated, and poor parents works too.

    My father had uneducated but highly intelligent parents, parents who grew up in deep poverty and left school at very early ages but who also appreciated education, parents who were able to provide a lower middle class environment for their son, a son who attended quite ordinary public schools, and he literally became a rocket scientist. Yes, literally, stuff he designed and built is sitting on the moon right now.

    Despite being unable to help him with things beyond elementary school his parents maintained very high expectations. If his grades failed to meet those expectations then he had to spend more hours in the living room with the radio off (no TV yet) and fewer hours outside with friends, until the grades improved. He might be able to spend some of these additional hours in the public library, god help him if his mother checked in and he wasn't there or not working on something school related. He was expected to do some reading in the summer. His mother would also pickup some inexpensive math workbooks at the Woolworth's store during the summer for him to do. In size and paper quality they were a bit like comic books, but the content constituted a series of serious workbooks from basic arithmetic to geometry and trigonometry.

    Now I had the advantage of an upper middle class environment. Plus parents that could handle advanced high school coursework and did review it and occasionally suggested ways to improve it and made me go redo things. However the most important thing they did, in my opinion, was to instill an interest in learning at a young age and to maintain the highest expectations. Just as my grandparents did with my father.

    As others have pointed out parent involvement is probably the most important factor, but involvement probably has more to do with instilling a value for education and setting high expectations, not necessary involvement in the sense of helping with coursework.

    1. Re:Smart, poor parents works too. by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Smart, but formally uneducated, and poor parents works too.

      And stupid, abusive, dirt poor, alcoholic parents can also produce child geniuses. They're just the exception rather than the rule.

      I don't think anyone would seriously contend that other things being equal having rich parents isn't an advantage. Otherwise, you might as well introduce 100% inheritance taxes and just share the money out equally.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  42. Studying, not in some sort of timeout by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Botched an edit. The time in the living room was not quiet time, a "timeout". It was studying. Apologies for any confusion:

    If his grades failed to meet those expectations then he had to spend more hours in the living room at a desk hitting the books and studying with the radio off (no TV yet) and fewer hours outside with friends, until the grades improved.

  43. Singapore by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

    While not mentioned here, Singapore also gets very good results with their public education system. They achieve this by having several tiers, each with a dedicated set of teachers. These teachers focus on the students who are placed in the tier corresponding to their level. A student moves up a tier any time they are ready, the goal is obviously to have them as high as possible. A student is in any given tier for as long as they need.

    What does the US have? One group of 30 with one teacher, on iPads. Also with a lot of whining from everyone about how high taxes are as it is.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  44. Most educators know this by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 3

    Technology should be used to augment classroom instruction, not replace it. Sadly, too many administrators & politicians seem to fall into the "This Will Revolutionize Education" mentality. Even when I was studying computer science, none of my courses was in an actual computer room. We had 3 hours of lecture for theory and then a 2 hour lab for application, plus extra hours outside of class time for homework. I almost loathe having to teach in a computer classroom, because some students are busy screwing around with "social media" instead of paying attention.

    --
    Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
  45. Very Simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In most cases a child does poorly due to doing little to no work. Does not study or do HW. Does not pay attention in class. Give the child a computer, he does the same little to no work and learns just as little. As a teacher, seen this forever. Here is the problem, most people on the board whether they were a A student or a C student while in primary school are WAY above the average student that is not doing well in a inner city school. You can not imagine how little students do in class. the fact that 50% of students have IEP which allows them to get promoted with as little of 30% mastery of the material. Sticking an ipad or computer infront of this child does nothing. On the other end of the spectrum, a motivated student can benifit from a well designed computer based cirriculem . Many of these students are HELD back by the less motivated students. Many school districts group the chilfren by age an not by ability level. Last year some motivated higher performing students were places (as by law) in my special education inclusion class. They had smaller gains vs thier pier group that scored similar on the previous years exam. The rigor in the special education inclusion class had to be adjusted lower vs my regular sections. NEVER LET YOU CHILD BE PLACED IN INCLUSION CLASSES

  46. What do test scores have to do with anything? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The whole point of putting computers in schools isn't to improve test scores, only actually learning the subject matter can do that!

    The point is so that kids get used to doing work with computers, since you know, that's how work is done these days. If you want to argue that computers in schools isn't beneficial, show me a study that shows that kids that didn't have computers in school don't do worse in the workplace than kids who did have them. Or at least can get up to speed as quickly.

  47. "UK's Organization for Economic Cooperation..." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "the UK's Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development"
    Really? http://www.oecd.org/about/

  48. Newer more relevant skills?? by irving47 · · Score: 1

    Just gonna throw this out there.... My niece and nephew will almost certainly not learn cursive. They are learning no-look touch-typing instead.
    What argument could be made that that is not a good trade-up?
    I'm not baiting/challenging. I just can't think of a reason to oppose that idea...

    --
    I had a sucky sig.
    1. Re:Newer more relevant skills?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not learn both? I don't think learning cursive writing hurts touch typing skills. I never heard anyone say, "Man, if only we didn't teach cursive, we would have some extra time to teach touch typing!"

    2. Re:Newer more relevant skills?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if only they were acquiring touch-typing skills!!! I see very few coming out being able to touchtype, and that is with real keyboards... as for tablets, well..

  49. Its been clear for a long time... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, ...using a word processor is a HUGE improvement for MOST students over doing reports with pen and paper. ...using reference databases is a HUGE improvement over card catalogs for finding information. ...Digital cameras are a HUGE improvement over film cameras for teaching photography/videography ...Digital sensors can be a game-changing improvement for teaching aspects of science ...Video analysis tools (such as Coaches Eye) are a HUGE improvement over straight video for teaching physical skills. ...Moodle is a huge improvement over paper folders.

    What all of these have in common is that the tool is an improvement for teaching, not an attempt to change the basics of how people learn.

    Thats the key to good use of tech in the classroom. The tech is a tool, not a replacement for education. The focus remains on the building of skills, not the tech.

  50. Terrible, terrible implementation by EmperorOfCanada · · Score: 1
    In the 14 years my children have been going to school about the only place I saw an even slightly useful deployment was in a day care. They had some basic software for teaching the alphabet that the kids seemed to like.

    In all other deployments I could see no educational purpose to the computers. As far as I could tell the computers were there to serve three non-educational purposes:
    • First was to give administrators and politicians the ability to say that the schools were modern and computerized.
    • The second was to give government contracts that installed crap computers for inflated prices, so that politically connected companies to make lots of money.
    • The last purpose was to keep network admins employed within the school system as they deployed terrible wifi with net-nanny type crap that made it impossible to access many excellent educational resources such as youtube.

    But as for actual use, the only thing that I could see them being really used for was as glorified typewriters for the kids to type reports and the teachers to print out tests and whatnot.

    My guess is that proper use of a computer for learning is pretty much the antithesis of how today's educational system works. Computers are excellent at self-paced learning where the student has a plethora of options to chose from so that they can find a source that fits their educational desires. This sort of environment though completely fails the unmotivated incapable students while it would send the best students into the stratosphere and potentially causing them to skip grades at a rapid pace. It also starts to take the teacher way out of the loop for the best students and leaves them with the worst students to squabble with.

    So where I see computers impacting education is not from within our educational system but from outside. I suspect that as it finally matures to the point where a "complete" education can be had and that the certificates earned are respected that it will provide competition to the existing system. In this I see two interesting developments. One is that I see the most motivated and capable students beginning to complete their grade school educations outside the system. Thus the bell curve of students will largely have the top portion cropped off leaving the lesser students in the system. This will then create a bit of a feedback loop where the remaining top students will also leave the public system. This will have the effect of a two tiered set of certificate where some higher educational institutions will prefer the non-public ones. Again this will pressure another few percentiles of students to leave the public system.

    But once the students and their parents learn the benefits of a two tiered educational system it will potentially begin to impact the lesser universities. For which would many people rather have, a piece of paper earned in person at a clearly second rate university or a certificate earned online from a top tier university? I am actually not suggesting a clear answer here as there are so many factors. Many people argue that High School and University are social experiences as much as educational ones; except that universities don't give a diploma for having a social network, they give you the paper for completing the courses.

    So I don't think that a computer education will eliminate the non-computer one, I suspect that it will provide much needed competition and cause a massive shakeup of our existing educational systems.

  51. Depends what they are tested on by bug1 · · Score: 0

    "the availability of computers provides "no noticeable improvement" to students' test scores"

    I guess they didnt test their general computer skills... or "computer graphics", or ability to do their own research, or communicate with people they can see.

    And they didnt exactly consider if computers help people learn, or consider they are a door to an almost infinite treasure of information.

    So when testing students ability to do things that havent changed in 100 years, computers dont improve test grades even though they might help people learn and provide context to that they are learning about.

    Great report old angry guy.

    1. Re:Depends what they are tested on by serviscope_minor · · Score: 2

      I like how you assume that dumping a bunch of computers into a classroom with no though, cirriculum or teacher training will magically improve those things.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    2. Re:Depends what they are tested on by bug1 · · Score: 1

      I like how you assume that dumping a bunch of assumptions on someone with no basis, logic, or suggestions will magically improve those things.

    3. Re:Depends what they are tested on by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      It's almost like you hopped on the thread to say "TFA is wrong because REASONS", except you missed out the reasons. All you did was hop on, declare it's wrong, then bugger off only to come back and get annoyed when people (e.g. me) think you were being silly.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
  52. hype from Apple was just hype by AndyKron · · Score: 2

    So people are finally figuring out that all the hype from Apple was just hype. I want my money back!

  53. South Korea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My buddy from South Korea said that middle school was like prison, as in he studied non-stop. It helped him pass the entrance exam to get into a good high school. If he didn't study so hard in middle school he would have instead gone to another high school, which he didn't want to do.
    In the end it's all about responsibility. It's not the money, just look at Washington DC schools, they spend a ton, but are at the bottom.

  54. Monkey & calculator doth not a genius make. by dsmatthews9379 · · Score: 1
    Computers are mind amplifiers, and in this regard they are functioning as designed in schools.

    The failure lies with those who were tasked to nurture the development of the minds.

    If you don't start your offspring's literacy training by the age of two years old you risk missing the period of maximum brain plasticity and therefore permanently limiting their potential.

  55. Re:However, in special ed, they do keep them engag by bangular · · Score: 1

    Only a small handful of technologies help. Having a recorded lecture that you can replay helps A LOT. Posted pdf's are way better than paper handouts (much more difficult to lose). However, almost everything else is an inferior tool. Smartboards write terribly and illegibly. Powerpoint has removed instructor/student back-and-forth and becomes a one-way broadcast. The list goes on. Oddly enough, the useful technologies have been around for 20-30 years and still aren't being effectively used.

  56. No shit, Sherlock by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can't speak for the UK, but here in the USA...

    Our teachers are overworked and underpaid. Class sizes go up, salaries go down. Bad teachers cannot be removed or incentivized to improve. Good teachers cannot be rewarded without losing them, as the only advancement is either into administration (where they do no teaching, or indeed, anything else of value) or into better teaching jobs. Parents refuse to participate in their children's education until their little hellspawn is made to look like anything but a shiny golden god, at which point they throw a giant shitfit and sling lawsuits until the act of teaching, itself, becomes a liability issue. Religions push for their horseshit to be peddled alongside actual education. If you're lucky they just make you put stickers on the science textbook, if you're not the Feds push for abstinence-only sex ed as a "faith-based initiative" - or for voodoo pedagogy like Common Core because the old curriculum was racist. And the whole time, administrators pour time, money and effort into useless half-baked classroom "technology" because it's about the only thing that won't get them sued.

    It's completely fucked, and the only reason why it works as "well" as it does is because there are still teachers willing to push a little knowledge through the cracks in the bullshit, and students willing to try to pick it out. Everyone else involved is only getting in the way.

  57. Re: Critical thinking skills by hackwrench · · Score: 1

    If a problem is so simple that cutting and pasting the answer can yield the solution, I doubt it does much to enhance critical thinking skills no matter what.

    In fact, lets give them some code right off the bat that requires quite a bit of tweaking to provide the solution to the answer. That way you skip all the stuff that doesn't contribute to critical thinking skills, and they learn what to look for in code libraries so that they aren't constantly reinventing the wheel.

    Relevant links:
    http://www.qb64.net/forum/inde...
    http://www.qb64sourcecode.com/...

  58. Re: Critical thinking skills by malignant_minded · · Score: 0

    Agreed. It is about selecting appropriate content to complete the task. We teach students to research in which they are collecting data and reaching conclusions after weighing the evidence. The same approach should be applied to other problems. Someone may have solved the exact same problem you are looking to solve but often we need to look at multiple approaches and selectively piece a solution together either from partial solutions or from the insight provided through other problems that may abstractly relate. If the test can be solved on the first hit then the test is the problem.

  59. Re: Critical thinking skills by ignavusinfo · · Score: 0

    Respectfully, I disagree. There are many interesting problems that have cut and paste answers. "Compare Macbeth and Lady Macbeth's attitude toward divine justice as it changes throughout the course of the play." To a sixth grader, it's an assignment requiring critical thinking but also a task that lends itself to a quick search for an easily paraphrased response. It's not a new concern (Cliff Notes!) but it's easy to see how training the young to search first and think later might lead to undesirable outcomes.

  60. Re: Critical thinking skills by hackwrench · · Score: 1

    I was never given that particular problem in school, and honestly, I'm not sure my formal education taught critical thinking particularly well. In fact, defining "critical thinking" can be particularly hard. Wikipedia's article on it has multiple issues. How does answering the question about MacBeth involve critical thinking? What does it teach you about problem solving?

  61. The real story... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Education Department: "Computers solve everything! Give our students a computer education!"
    School Board: "Computers solve everything! Give our students a computer education, but we don't have the money to fund both the computers and a teacher."
    School: "Computers? Well, we can foist another subject off on one of our PT teachers."
    Students: "You call this antique thing a computer? Its got a monochrome screen, a chiclet keyboard, and uses floppy disks! Screw this, I am going to play with my cellphone and browse YouTube."

  62. computer are not a panacea, but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Useless studies do help white over edumicated Liberal maintain steady employment and allow them to go through life with the smug air of superiority, knowing that they play an essential role in conducting the studies that allow wealthy over edumicated white people to cite studies to show that we have serious endemic problems with minority disenfranchisement (minorities don't get paid to conduct studies o guess), and the self evident need to conduct more studies to study minority disenfranchisement.

    yes if it wasn't for studies, I think all white people would have to sell crack and / or become pimps. Hooray for studies. Now I need go out and buy some heroin with all the money I got conducting studies.

  63. Teams generally outperform individuals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Teams teach cooperation. In the real word teams generally outperform individuals at problem solving. Even when the individual is more highly trained.

  64. Apparently you did NOT learn about teamwork by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you learned that teamwork is about following orders and no independent thinking, your teachers failed, your coaches failed, you failed. Teamwork is actually about learning each others strengths and weaknesses so that the group can figure out how to maximize performance, its about accepting the idea that teams generally outperform individuals at problem solving and that anybody might come up with a good idea to solve the problem immediately at hand.

    Teams improvise, adapt and overcome.

  65. You feel better now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... Asian students are fantastic little encyclopedias of useless shit ...

    If you ever think you are better than those Asian students you need your head re-checked

  66. Re:However, in special ed, they do keep them engag by odie5533 · · Score: 1

    In 2010 my local elementary deployed iPod Touch 2Gs. They bought a class set of around 50 and then bought one for every teacher and staff. The idea was supposedly the teachers could perform reading assessments using an app created by the test company, and students would use apps on them to learn. One assessment was carried out using them and the teachers complained so much they went back to paper. A lot of money was allocated for app purchases, but the IT group was lazy in handling it. They waited about a year and a half before finally trying to add apps to them. The technology had already moved by then and none of the apps they tried supported the 2G anymore. The class set was moved into a closet. I don't think there was any plan for the teacher iPods, and they remain unaccounted for and no one really wants them back.

    I remember the grant total was over $100,000 for this, but I think it included the purchase of some Macbooks for the teachers, a cart to hold all the iPods, accessories for the iPod 2G, and money for app purchases.

  67. Re: Critical thinking skills by Sique · · Score: 1
    Critical thinking starts with knowing the meaning of "critic", which has a negative connotation in English, while in the original Greek, it means "evaluating" or "balancing". Many people thus get confused and think that "just doubting everything" is critical thinking.

    Critical thinking is the ability not only to pose question, but also to accept answers. Critical thinking is the ability to pose interesting questions and to evaluate answers and compare them and give the answers different weight. And yes, critical thinking requires you to question everything and to doubt anything, but it requires you to even question your questions and doubt your doubts. And it requires you to work through and get to conclusions, and if everything is doubtful, then it requires you to at least enumerate your doubts and accept the less doubtful answers as a working hypothesis. Critical thinking requires your ability to accept any hypothesis per se as true for a moment to evaluate it in the what-if-manner: What if there really was an intelligent designer? What if there really were alien visitors on Earth? What if 9/11 really was a CIA-Mossad conspiracy? And then you have to find new questions that implicate the truth of the hypotheses and see where they lead to: How do you hide 500 metric tons of TNT in a building, as TNT has only 1/10 of the energy content of kerosene? How do you start the explosion exactly the moment a real airplane hits the building? Did the aliens land only once, or have they visited several times? Were they the same aliens for each visit, or can you tell which aliens were visiting which sites? Can we tell if the alien technology progressed from visit to visit?

    --
    .sig: Sique *sigh*
  68. Re: Critical thinking skills by tehcyder · · Score: 1

    If a problem is so simple that cutting and pasting the answer can yield the solution, I doubt it does much to enhance critical thinking skills no matter what.

    When you're learning something new, you generally have to start with simple problems. (Most people aren't genius-level polymaths like everyone on slahsdot seems to be.).

    Twelve year old kids doing history homework by cutting and pasting from wikipedia is not the same as a PhD history researcher doing the same thing.

    --
    To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  69. Re: Critical thinking skills by tehcyder · · Score: 1

    the meaning of "critic", which has a negative connotation in English

    No, it doesn't. A film or art critic doesn't just say negative things about movies or paintings.

    The verb "criticise" in everyday speech is negative, but that's a different use case.

    --
    To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  70. Re: Critical thinking skills by hackwrench · · Score: 1

    When you're learning something new, you generally have to start with simple problems.

    Or a more complex problem that can be reduced to a series of simple problems that can be solved in any order.

    doing history homework by cutting and pasting from wikipedia

    If it can be done that way then perhaps it's bad homework. I've had too much homework that consisted of merely copying the textbook.

  71. Re:Backward looking testing for Needs of the Futur by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

    I would have given you a B, but your grade will be C- because of that character font!

  72. Anecdotal Evidence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Given the fact that I'm typing this comment in the midst of a college lecture, which I'm more or less ignoring, I can see the logic.

  73. Re:However, in special ed, they do keep them engag by CODiNE · · Score: 1

    phase out the iPads and replace them with something that doesn't make students cry and teachers put their firsts through the wall when doing such incredibly complicated feats such as adding a greek letter to a word document in a science assignment.

    On an iPad? Just add the Greek keyboard, is there anything missing? There's also a ton of custom keyboards that can be installed. There's 2 keyboards specifically for doing scientific and math symbols. Even without those, students could copy and paste the needed symbols from an existing Word doc.

    But you're right, it's not the ability of the device or software to do what you need, it's the training involved to make sure people know how to use it.

    Apple often doesn't include any manuals at all with their stuff. It's true 1 year old babies can use an iPad, but not everyone has time to learn by exploration and "self discovery", sometimes a nice little index with commons tasks is needed.

    --
    Cwm, fjord-bank glyphs vext quiz
  74. Seriously, this is ridiculous... by xgeorgio · · Score: 1

    Seriously, this is perhaps the most ridiculous "study" ever from OECD. It is nothing less than blaming the use of pens instead of pencils for bad exam grades.

    Someone should eventually get in the media and apologize for this as a hoax. And do it fast.

    --
    "Abashed the Devil stood, and felt how awful goodness is..."
  75. Re:However, in special ed, they do keep them engag by thegarbz · · Score: 1

    Yes there's heaps missing. Software that understands the concept of different letters. Software that understands the concepts of formulas. Interaction between software. Better methods of copying and saving work, transferring work to different file formats, dare I say being able to print. A full web browser compatible with complicated "thin client" interfaces such as Blackboard.

    The Apple ecosystem is one that is closed and highly special purpose. Apps are designed for a task. Each device is designed for a task. This is fundamentally incompatible with the notion of a device that is flexible to do anything required in a school. As you say someone really knowledgeable could probably get that to work, but that's definitely not what is needed in a device used in a school. e.g. there simply does not exist a productivity suite on an iPad that makes cranking out long wordy assignments easy. Heck people complain enough about MS Word, it stands to reason that something worse won't cut it in the academic world.

    The iPad isn't a bad device. It's just a bad general purpose academic device. By extension Chromebooks are no better. iPads are sold as a turn-key solution and are anything but.

  76. Amazing how fast... by kenh · · Score: 1

    Amazing how fast topic went off the rails - personal anecdotes aside, this study was not about particular topics in certain grades, it considered the effectiveness of the collected education system across entire nations...

    Nations with less emphasis on putting 'computers in the classroom' typically achieve better test scores than nations that emphasize putting 'computers in the classroom.'

    --
    Ken