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Porsche Unveils Its First Electric Car

An anonymous reader writes: German automaker Porsche has made its first foray into electric vehicles. On Monday at the Frankfurt Auto Show, it unveiled a concept car called the Porsche Mission E. Its 800-volt drive system can take the car from 0 to 100km/h in 3.5 seconds. The high-voltage charging system lets it gain 80% of its battery capacity back within 15 minutes. They claim a driving range of 500km on a single battery charge. Porsche said the car was not a response to the Tesla Model S, but the two will likely be direct competitors when the Mission E goes into full production. That will happen "within the next five years."

31 of 213 comments (clear)

  1. Fast by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Zero to production in five years. Yay.

    1. Re:Fast by tnk1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Which is pretty sweet, and exactly what Tesla wants.

      Tesla wants the competition in the market. They won't be able to put enough money together to make electric cars into the "new normal" by themselves. For that, they need a lot of competitors who are producing enough volume to make EVs something that you see everywhere.

      Once it hits a certain tipping point, the market will start supporting EVs as more than just toys. At that point, the goal of mass adoption could turn EVs into a replacement for gasoline vehicles which means that now Tesla makes more money due to increased volume over all. And being the owner of a great deal of production capacity for these sorts of vehicles, this means they have a head start on everyone else.

      It won't be enough to make Tesla completely dominant in the EV market, but it could propel them into a top spot in a New Electric Vehicle Order. More to the point, it would turn them into a real honest to goodness car company, and not just an expensive vanity project.

      Or to put it more succinctly, a rising tide lifts all ships. Any work that anyone does to support EVs or dedicate production capacity to EVs will help Tesla out too. Just like they're helping out everyone else by releasing their patents and building infrastructure.

    2. Re:Fast by michelcolman · · Score: 2

      From Porsche, I would have expected better than "in five years we'll be able to make a car that has the same range and is almost as fast as the P85Ds that Tesla has been selling for almost a year." (Never mind the even faster ludicrous P90D).

      About the only advantage would be the charging time, which is faster than Tesla's current crop of superchargers. But those have been improved several times over the last years, and with 5 years to go, I think it would be extremely unlikely for Teslas to still take more than 15 minutes to charge 400 km by then.

  2. EV conversion by i.r.id10t · · Score: 5, Informative

    One of the first cars Dr Ferdinand Porsche designed was electric, had motors on all 4 wheels.

    His son Ferry is the Porsche car maker we all know... and did the 356.

    But for the cost of a high end rebuild on a 356 engine, you can convert them to electric. Same conversion should owrk on any model with the 200mm clutch - 356, 912, 914 - as well as later (post '64 IIRC) VW bugs and busses.

    http://www.evwest.com/catalog/...

    Also, I thought the 918 Spyder was electric?

    Finally, Saturday is the 19th - not just Talk Like a Pirate Day, it is Ferry Porsche's birthday and Drive Your Porsche Day.

    --
    Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
    1. Re:EV conversion by PPH · · Score: 3, Informative

      Also, I thought the 918 Spyder was electric?

      Hybrid.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    2. Re:EV conversion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It cannot be driven in all-electric mode.

      Actually, it can, but the range is estimated at 12mi (19km).
      So yeah, the electric motors are there for the constant and instant torque, not for billionaire eco-weenies to feel good about themselves.

    3. Re:EV conversion by vux984 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yes, the 918 is hybrid and it definitely was designed to , but it can run on all-electric only... at least for 20 miles. :)

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    4. Re:EV conversion by kheldan · · Score: 2

      But for the cost of a high end rebuild on a 356 engine, you can convert them to electric. Same conversion should owrk on any model with the 200mm clutch - 356, 912, 914 - as well as later (post '64 IIRC) VW bugs and busses.

      If you're going to do something like that, do it to some vehicle nobody actually cares about, like an old VW bug or bus, not a Porsche. Otherwise you just come off like a Philistine.

      --
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    5. Re:EV conversion by Type44Q · · Score: 5, Interesting

      His son Ferry is the Porsche car maker we all know... and did the 356.

      His grandson Ferdinand Piech is the Porsche car maker we all should know... and did the 240mph 917/30, the Quattro (amen) and the Bugatti Veyron. Hell, he even designed the most reliable and indestructible engine ever put in a passenger car (the Mercedes turbo-charged five-cylinder). These may be among the reasons that it was he (and not his father or grandfather) who won Car Executive of the Century.

  3. Wrong headline by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is NOT their first electric car by a long shot
    http://www.history.com/news/fe...

    1. Re:Wrong headline by ProzacPatient · · Score: 2

      Well another thing is that Porsche is owned by Volkswagen which came out with the E-Golf last year so technically I don't think Porsche coming out with an electric car is as huge a thing no matter how you look at it.

    2. Re:Wrong headline by fnj · · Score: 2

      Ferdinand != Ferry

      Ferry started the car company - Ferdinand was an engineer and worked for Mercedes, VW, etc.

      Bull crap. Ferdinand Porsche (Sr.) (1875-1951) was the FOUNDER of Porsche car company as well as, yes, an engineer. He designed the VW Beetle and the Mercedes SS/SSK, as well as being heavily involved in Tiger Tanks, V1 rockets, and other war projects.

      Ferdinand Anton Ernst "Ferry" Porsche (1909-1998) was the son of Ferdinand, and operated Porsche AG.

  4. Slower, Same range, within 5 years?!? by themeliorist · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Assuming it launches for a similar price range, it can't compete with a Model S now, much less in the next five years. Next year the supercharger network will blanket the US and they'll have two attractive (/expensive) models to choose from. In 2018 they'll have a $35k everyman's car to compete with the LEAF and Volt. How is Porsche going to compete? If this came out a year ago maybe it could rely on it's brand but Tesla is quickly becoming the Apple of cars (not entirely a good thing). Talk about dead on arrival.

    1. Re:Slower, Same range, within 5 years?!? by avandesande · · Score: 2

      What do you mean by compete? Do you think acceleration is the only important specification for a car? Sorry but if Porsche wants to they can eat Tesla's lunch.

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    2. Re:Slower, Same range, within 5 years?!? by lymond01 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Porsche doesn't compete with non-performance cars. From appearance and probably stats, this will be more in the supercar arena: Audi R8, BMW i8, Ferraris, Lamborghinis. My guess, if it's up to Porsche standards, one will be required to find at least $150,000 to afford this. Which, according to reports, is how much a fully loaded Tesla Model X will run (the price range is...large on that one: mid $70s to mid $100s).

      I drive a Civic. I had a Porsche for a weekend earlier this year -- 911 Carrera S. I imagine it to be a land-based version of a fighter jet. I haven't driven a Tesla -- I hear they are very very nice, very fast off the line...but I wonder how their sport handling compares to a 911. Hmm...need to find me some Youtube comparisons...

      Oh, and will someone explain what BMW is doing with the i3? When I think BMW, I think sport sedan. That thing has the specs of a Nissan Leaf and the looks of a Scion Cube. I'd expected something Tesla-ish.

    3. Re:Slower, Same range, within 5 years?!? by zdzichu · · Score: 2

      Pushing 300kW would mean 1300 amperes at 230V. Or 750 amperes with 3-phase 400V. Which is quite a lot (to waaaay understate). My whole apartment has 60 amperes terminal.

      --
      :wq
    4. Re:Slower, Same range, within 5 years?!? by AaronW · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Not easily. With Tesla you're getting a lot more than just a car. You're also getting access to the largest network of rapid chargers along major routes. Next week I'm driving from the SF Bay Area up to Seattle in my Tesla. At least from the Bay Area to Grant's Pass OR I'll spend around 90 minutes charging for that route with most stops being 20-30 minutes. Right now I can drive from San Diego to Edmonton Canada or across the country to the East Coast on Tesla's superchargers. There's already a huge amount of charging infrastructure in place with more going online quite rapidly. There is nothing equivalent right now for non-Tesla EVs. Sure, there's a lot of ChaDeMo chargers in urban centers but there are many places where it's quite difficult to go. I have a friend with a Leaf and it takes him at least a couple of days to reach the Oregon border from the SF Bay Area since he has to spend a significant amount of time charging at RV parks since there's no infrastructure between major urban areas.

      Also, I don't think there are many CCS chargers that could output anywhere near enough to charge the Porsche to 80% in 15 minutes. Tesla's supercharger network outputs 120KW (135 in Europe). Also, unlike the mish-mash of CCS and ChaDeMo chargers, they're being installed along major routes. It will be at least several years until CCS catches up with where Tesla's network is now. As it is, Tesla owners with the ChaDeMo adapter have been complaining that many ChaDeMo chargers can't even handle 45KW without overheating (even in the dead of winter when it's 0F outside).

      Tesla also will have the battery manufacturing capacity to significantly cut prices on the batteries. Additionally, they're already starting to offset their charging stations with solar and grid-tied batteries to significantly reduce peak electricity usage and cut costs. Also, nobody has talked about the price of the Porsche. You can bet that it will be a lot more expensive than Tesla.

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    5. Re:Slower, Same range, within 5 years?!? by afidel · · Score: 2

      The cables wouldn't have to be that big, in my datacenter we run 600A 480V and the cables are about as big around as my fingers, granted there are 4 of them but that's not much bigger in total than the gas hose on many pumps with vapor recovery systems. It would be a lot heavier than a gas hose though so you'd probably need overhead support with the ability to swing the cable into position over the car so you're only moving a small fraction of the weight for those of smaller build.

      --
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    6. Re:Slower, Same range, within 5 years?!? by Amouth · · Score: 4, Interesting

      once you get above 300 volts you have to start really dealing with NFPA-70E Arc flash regulations (below 300 is only an issue if "exposed" other wise it is avoid contact).

      If you then start getting above 750 and in the kV range you start dealing with hard regulations around approach boundaries

      751-15kV is 2'2" restricted boundaries (requires PPE and training) and 7" prohibited boundary (meaning you can't be within 7 inches of a live line in that range period)

      My bet is that no car manufacturer wants to deal with having to design a charging station standard which requires people to hook it up, step away, AND have a method for ensuring that there is zero possibility of someone within the area.

      When you have power in that voltage range someone will be liable for safety in that area, and car manufactures can not insure that the operator of the car and charging station have had the appropriate training or PPE available so they most likely won't go there. Even on industrial equipment that uses this level voltage most OEMs have safety interlocks so that you can't accidentally get into an energized compartment.

      Sorry you just won't see real high voltage charging systems for consumer cars. This is one of the reasons they will have to figure out how to deal with the current side of the problem.

      --
      '...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
    7. Re:Slower, Same range, within 5 years?!? by fnj · · Score: 2

      800 volts, which is what this car is, should not be in the same class as 15 kV. It is closer to 120 V than it is to 15 kV.

      The maximum air gap 800 volts DC will jump is 1/10 of a mm. Hmmph. Big deal. It requires respect because the consequences of coming within an air distance equal to the thickness of a few sheets of paper of it - or much more likely, touching it, are SEVERE, but it's not a big bad magic monster.

      If lay people (drivers) when charging at quick charge stations are dealing with several hundred volts now every day (a Tesla supercharger is 400 V), then there is no deep dark reason why 800 volts should suddenly become a priesthood-only matter. Time was, not that long ago, ordinary drivers weren't allowed to pump their own gasoline either.

      I think you will find that the insulation on a charging cable is made literally many hundreds of times thicker than the barely required dielectric strength, and the connector is designed so that you can't come anywhere near the contact. I bet it has some super effective GFI protection, too. It sure as hell is not live when being connected.

      To put it in perspective, ordinary hookup wire with teflon class E insulation is rated at 600 volts. The insulation is 0.25 mm thick but clearly has a gigantic safety factor. The dielectric strength of extruded teflon is 19.7 MV/m, which is 19.7 kV/mm, so if the insulation on that wire is in perfect condition it will actually withstand 5 kV. I'll bet the insulation on a high voltage charging cable is a minum of 50 times as thick; probably more.

  5. Still playing catch-up by rgmoore · · Score: 2

    Big deal. Porsche is unveiling a prototype of a car that can compete with what Tesla has been doing for a few years. That's great, except that Tesla is a moving target. If Porsche wants to get some excitement going, they need to put out something that will compete with where Tesla will be in a few years when this thing actually makes it into production.

    --

    There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.

    1. Re:Still playing catch-up by SpankiMonki · · Score: 3, Funny

      It IS a big deal! Porsche will be the FIRST electric car with a battery hanging behind the rear axle! It won't even need front wheels! They're just for show! Porsche FTW!!!

    2. Re:Still playing catch-up by Zobeid · · Score: 2

      If this logic really worked in the marketplace, we'd all be using Kodak digital cameras, playing videogames on Atari consoles, flying Pan-Am and carrying Nokia smartphones in our pockets.

      Zune: you make it you

  6. Lots of details in that article by Lucas123 · · Score: 2

    I just can't seem to find the expected price tag. Whoops. I forgot, if you need to ask the price of a Porsche, you cannot afford it.

    Personally, I'm vastly more excited about an affordable Tesla than some horrifically expensive EV Porsche.

  7. Pity the big auto companies were so blind. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A number of people (myself included) have known for decades (and somtimes brought to the attention of auto company executives that electric cars could be capable of performance far better than fuel-driven engines and limited only by the traction of the tires, and that people might want lectric vehicles with sane levels of performance.

    But the auto execs only thought of electric vehicles as appealing to eco-freaks, who would be willing to accept - and might desire - classic VW levels of performance. So when they designed electric "concept cars" they didn't do the engineering to achieve performance. Their offerings were traffic-snarling, short-range, wimpy eco-freak commuter cars.

    This left the market SO open that Elon Musk (who also understood the demand) was able to build a successful new auto company from scratch (a couple billion dollars worth) and capture the market.

    Musk started with the high end - to recover the development cost from the early adopters willing to pay big for the new toy - in classic Silicon Valley style. He's working his way down from the pricey prestige cars to the bulk market as fast as his engineers can bring the cost down and his financing can build the manufacturing infrastructure (and his lawyers and lobbyists can remove the legal obstacles to his not-dealer-dependent marketing).

    But now the PARTIAL lesson - that there's a market at the top for a high-performance electric car - has been learned, and a prestige auto maker is trying to get a slice of that.

    They're STILL not seeing the whole picture. Which is very good for Tesla. B-)

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    1. Re:Pity the big auto companies were so blind. by Strudelkugel · · Score: 3, Informative

      FYI:

      Tesla Motors was founded by Martin Eberhardt and Marc Tarpenning. Musk was an early investor.

      --
      Imagine how much harder physics would be if electrons had feelings! -Feynman, maybe
    2. Re:Pity the big auto companies were so blind. by AaronW · · Score: 5, Informative

      I agree. I own a Tesla model S P85 (for 2 1/2 years now). Tesla brings a lot more to the table than just the car. They also have a nation-wide charging network that nobody else comes close to. Next week I will be driving from the SF Bay Area to Seattle, WA. I plan to take a leisurely drive, stopping in Grants Pass for the night. On my drive to Grants Pass I will spend less than 90 minutes charging out of about 8 hours of driving. Given how most superchargers are near malls and other amenities I've found that often I grab something to eat and my car is fully charged before I am.

      Besides the charging network, Tesla is also addressing the battery supply with their gigafactory, which should significantly reduce the cost of their batteries. On top of that they're also offsetting their superchargers with solar power and are now starting to add grid battery storage as well to significantly cut peak power usage.

      Nobody else comes anywhere close. Their service and support has been excellent, though I've also heard that Porsche is also quite good. Even though my car was one of the early ones manufactured (VIN in the low 5000s) I've had very few problems and no major problems. Most were just squeaks and rattles, which they quickly fixed. They've also made very rapid improvements to the car in the 2 1/2 years since I bought mine. It may look the same on the outside, but there are a lot of new features under the hood and Tesla has addressed problems quickly in their production run, not waiting for 6-month or yearly intervals like many manufacturers.

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    3. Re:Pity the big auto companies were so blind. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative
      From your wiki link:

      One public provision stated that the parties will consider Eberhard, Musk, Straubel, Tarpenning, and Wright to be the five co-founders. Eberhard also issued a statement about Musk's foundational role in the company: "As a co-founder of the company, Elon's contributions to Tesla have been extraordinary."

  8. Capacity by nospam007 · · Score: 3, Funny

    "The high-voltage charging system lets it gain 80% of its battery capacity back within 15 minutes. "

    Don't they have any marketing slime in their company?
    Why don't they just add another 20% to the battery, then they can claim that it will be _fully_ recharged after 15 minutes?

    Later people will notice that if you let it stay longer on the charger, they will even get 120% of the capacity.

    It would be a win/win.

    1. Re:Capacity by U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M · · Score: 2

      I'm not buying an electric car until it comes in electric yellow and can charge its battery over 9000%.

  9. Re:Not a car by FranTaylor · · Score: 2

    This is Porsche's first foray into vapourware.

    The "defroster" on the original VW Beetle has this beat by many decades, we are still waiting for the one that works.