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The WWII-Era Inspired Plane Giving the F-35 a Run For Its Money

schwit1 writes: The US military almost adopted the A-29 Super Tucano, a $4 million turboprop airplane reminiscent of WWII-era designs that troops wanted, commanders said was "urgently needed," but Congress refused to buy. "It's a great plane," says recently retired Air Force Lt. Col. Shamsher Mann, an F-16 pilot who has flown A-29s. "Pilots love it. It handles beautifully, sips gas, and can go anywhere. If you want to get into the fight and mix it up with the guys on the ground, the Super T is a great platform." The Super Tucano provided the "low-end" air-to-ground attack capability the United States simply never had in Afghanistan-a capability the Pentagon's F-35 could never hope to replicate.

193 of 320 comments (clear)

  1. Of course the Air Force didn't adopt it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's not a fly high-go fast toy. They've been trying to kill the A-10 for 30 years because they don't like it.

    Kind of like the competition for the F35 design. I took one look at the prototypes and knew Boeing wouldn't win. Their plane was ugly, not sexy.

    1. Re:Of course the Air Force didn't adopt it by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 1

      Actually it's Congress that doesn't want to buy it. RTFS

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    2. Re:Of course the Air Force didn't adopt it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      A Congress that listens to the lobbyists who are ex-USAF Generals.

    3. Re:Of course the Air Force didn't adopt it by FranTaylor · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A Congress that listens to the lobbyists who are ex-USAF Generals.

      those generals also hold substantial stock in the companies that make the planes

    4. Re:Of course the Air Force didn't adopt it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In other words, its self-interest all the way down. Gotta love USA...

    5. Re:Of course the Air Force didn't adopt it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Name one.

    6. Re:Of course the Air Force didn't adopt it by TheViffer · · Score: 5, Informative

      Seriously ... WTF!?!

      An A-10 has a hourly maintenance costs of roughly $12,000 per hour flown. The F-35 is already sitting at a guess-ta-ment of $32,000 per hour flown.

      Chart

      To quote.
      the A-10 Thunderbolt II is the cheapest aircraft to operate in terms of both flight hours and individual procurement costs. The A-10's low costs are due to the plane's rugged but functional structural designs.

      Lets not talk about the $148 million a piece price tag for the base F-35 model. A-10's start at around $30 million each. You let me know when one F-35 can out compete four A-10's for air to ground combat.

      --
      -- Knowing too much can get you killed, but knowing who knows too much can make you rich.
    7. Re:Of course the Air Force didn't adopt it by rtb61 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So can one F-35 outperform a whole squadron of A-29s, well yes, if you goal is to bleed money out of the US treasury or out of the many vassal states forced to buy that rubbish instead of the far higher performing Russian variants. The corruption is just so blatant and in your face now and all of this protected by main stream media incidentally owned by the same corporations. Everyone knows it is all lies but that does no even slow down main stream media in it's propaganda efforts to prop those lies up. The is no pretending the F-35 is not shit but the billions keep flowing, the lobbyists pay the politicians and main stream media keeps it hidden and promotes the lies and it just keeps going on and on and on. It really seems like they don't even care if the public knows because they know the public will not be able to do anything about it, so it seems like they are only giving minimal lip service to covering up the corruption.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    8. Re:Of course the Air Force didn't adopt it by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      You let me know when one F-35 can out compete four A-10's for air to ground combat.

      From what I have heard, there were two American planes that you never wanted to see as the enemy - The Tomcat and the Warthog. One's a beauty, and one's fugly.

      i have no idea how that thing could outperform one A-10. You simply cannot extract the highest performance needed by trying to make a one plane fits all missions concept.

      Probably for the same reason I don't take my Jeep to the dragstrip, and I don''t ride my motorcycle off road.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    9. Re:Of course the Air Force didn't adopt it by evilviper · · Score: 3, Informative

      talk about the $148 million a piece price tag for the base F-35 model. A-10's start at around $30 million each. You let me know when one F-35 can out compete four A-10's for air to ground combat.

      Predator Unit cost: US$16.9 million

      It's not the F-35 that ended the A-10's service career... As of 2012, almost one in three USAF aircraft were UAVs.

      In Iraq and Afghanistan, UAVs were reportedly more frequent specifically requested by ground units than any other aircraft.

      "Whereas a manned fighter will seldom be able to stay on station for longer than an hour or so, a persistent armed UAV (PA-UAV) could potentially stay on station for up to 20 hours"

      - http://www.military.com/NewCon...

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    10. Re:Of course the Air Force didn't adopt it by SomeoneFromBelgium · · Score: 2

      I don't understand your logic. A drone is at most a bomb truck and a observation platform. Not really suited for the type of missions of the A10: working closely with people on the ground, often within visual range responding quickly and with very high precision.

      Would you like a drone to drop a precision laser guided bomb from 10 000 ft on a target that's less than 1 km from where you're standing?? Or would you rather have an A10 flying over low and slow and take out the target with it's gun?

      Logically the F-35 should be the one that is most likely to be replaced by a drone. Since it's manouverability is very low and all supporters of the plane describe it as a 'communication platform' and 'not intended for close combat'. That's something that a drone could easily do.

    11. Re:Of course the Air Force didn't adopt it by Xest · · Score: 2

      "You let me know when one F-35 can out compete four A-10's for air to ground combat."

      I'm a massive fan of the A-10, but I can think of one situation - when they're up against a fairly modern radar guided missile battery. In that scenario the F-35's stealth is going to let it survive when the A-10s fall out of the sky like rain.

      Now I think the A-10 still has it's place. It's exactly the type of aircraft, alongside the Harrier that we needed over Afghanistan and Iraq in the last 15 years precisely because it hasn't been up against modern missile batteries there. But if say we hypothetically had to hit an Iranian nuclear program, bomb Assad in his compound, or wanted to help Ukraine destroy some of those "Rebel" Buk missile batteries, then the F-35 is the jet you want in play.

      I'm more worried about what we're doing in the UK, than what the US is doing. Even if your Air Force fucks up you still have a Navy and Marine corps with substantial and sensible air assets. In the UK we seem to be getting jammed into a two plane setup across all services, Eurofighters, and F-35s. Both are ridiculously expensive aircraft to be throwing out on missions destroying individual ISIS fighters firing mortars from the middle of an empty undefended desert. Losing the Tornado as we're due to, and selling our Harriers for less than the cost of a single F-35 (We sold 72 Harriers to the US for $180million, whilst a single F-35 now has an average cost of over $400million) are both absolute travesties in ensuring we have what we need to fight the type of wars we're primarily fighting - those against insurgencies.

      We can still do it with the Eurofighter and the F-35 of course, but the cost of doing so would be drastically more than the price we sold our entire Harrier fleet for, which is frankly fucking absurd.

    12. Re:Of course the Air Force didn't adopt it by kenwd0elq · · Score: 1

      A Predator or Reaper has a small number of missiles and bombs. UAVs are excellent SURVEILLANCE assets, but they're limited in firepower. Use them to do long term watching for the target, with one or two weapons to kill it. Then fly home. UAVs are for a few high-value targets.

      An A10 can't stay onstation as long - but the weapons load can be as much as the weight of the rest of the aircraft. Sort of like the old AD1 "Skyraider" in that regard. A10s are for massed infantry and vehicles.

    13. Re:Of course the Air Force didn't adopt it by The+Black+Vegetable · · Score: 2

      From what I have heard, there were two American planes that you never wanted to see as the enemy - The Tomcat and the Warthog. One's a beauty, and one's fugly.

      Come now, the F-14 Tomcat isn't that ugly ;)

    14. Re:Of course the Air Force didn't adopt it by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      From what I have heard, there were two American planes that you never wanted to see as the enemy - The Tomcat and the Warthog. One's a beauty, and one's fugly.

      Come now, the F-14 Tomcat isn't that ugly ;)

      Had me for a moment, there! Pretty well played, sir.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  2. A Jeep will beat a Corvette sometimes, too. by enjar · · Score: 2

    If I was taking on a steep, rugged, slippery trail in the middle of nowhere, I'd want something like a Jeep. Four wheel drive, high ground clearance, rugged tires, etc. If I was on a race track and was looking for high speed performance, handling and braking, I'd take a Corvette.

    (feel free to change the marques of the off road vehicle and sports car to suit your tastes and/or nationality.)

    1. Re:A Jeep will beat a Corvette sometimes, too. by Amouth · · Score: 1

      With enough effort you can make a Jeep worthy of racing.

      http://northgeorgiaweather.wee...

      to be fair that is the only one i know of which i would say meets the need and as you can see requires heavy modifications.

      --
      '...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
    2. Re:A Jeep will beat a Corvette sometimes, too. by SvnLyrBrto · · Score: 5, Informative

      The problem with that analogy is that, in the case of the F-35; the military does, in fact, want to go off-roading on that steep, rugged, slippery trail in the middle of nowhere. But they think that they can take the Corvette, raise its suspension a bit and give it off-road tires, and it'll be better than the Jeep.

      --
      Imagine all the people...
    3. Re:A Jeep will beat a Corvette sometimes, too. by mrchaotica · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      Literally, the only thing that car has in common with an actual Jeep is the 80" wheelbase. From elsewhere on the site you linked:

      People ask why a Jeep and the answer is simple. The class rule is that the wheelbase of the vehicle can't be shorter than 80", and that the car you build, must resemble the car it's based off of. The builder, Del Long, started searching for cars that had an 80 wheelbase, and discovered that a 1946 Jeep had one. So at that point, Del started building the only autocross Jeep in the country. Oh... there are no real Jeep parts used on the car at all. Even the grill is a replica.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    4. Re:A Jeep will beat a Corvette sometimes, too. by TWX · · Score: 1

      In reality, it's a lot easier to make a Jeep perform a lot more like Corvette than it is to make a Corvette perform like a Jeep, especially when both vehicles are limited to the same road-going laws.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    5. Re:A Jeep will beat a Corvette sometimes, too. by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 1

      And at the same time think it will still perform like a Corvette.

    6. Re:A Jeep will beat a Corvette sometimes, too. by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 1

      A race track is a terrible place to take a ship.

    7. Re:A Jeep will beat a Corvette sometimes, too. by Amouth · · Score: 1

      it's still a fun car to watch race,

      --
      '...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
    8. Re:A Jeep will beat a Corvette sometimes, too. by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 1

      Actually this stock jeep will smoke a Vette - even a Z07

      No, it won't. A ZO6 has a 0-60 time of 3 seconds (2.95 I believe). Your link states "the 6.2-liter's 707 horsepower and 650 pound-feet of torque could help the Grand Cherokee breach 60 mph in less than four seconds". Even that's unlikely as the Jeep probably weighs a thousand pounds more than a ZO6, and has all the aerodynamics of a brick in comparison. The Dodge Challenger Hellcat automatic has a 0-60 time of 3.6 seconds. I don't think the Jeep will be faster.

    9. Re:A Jeep will beat a Corvette sometimes, too. by slazzy · · Score: 1

      True, that's why a vehicle or aircraft designed to be the best at everything, will be good at nothing...

      --
      Website Just Down For Me? Find out
    10. Re:A Jeep will beat a Corvette sometimes, too. by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Yes, yes it is. (I get to see it all the time since I'm in the same region!)

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    11. Re:A Jeep will beat a Corvette sometimes, too. by Amouth · · Score: 1

      Lucky, i'd like to get to know people who can build cars like that. in my region (NCR) we have a lot of active drivers, and a fair number of national champs to learn from. But most of them are Stock/Street or SP class drivers. We have very few real Modified drivers and almost no real modified cars/builders for AutoX.

      --
      '...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
    12. Re:A Jeep will beat a Corvette sometimes, too. by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      With enough effort you can make a Jeep worthy of racing.

      http://northgeorgiaweather.wee...

      to be fair that is the only one i know of which i would say meets the need and as you can see requires heavy modifications.

      And I saw a 4WD Vette once. Big ass tires and one hellauva lot of lift on it. Of course it was worthless for anything other than mud bugging.

      These examples sort of prove that it's pretty hard to have a one size fits all role the F35 is supposed to perform.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    13. Re:A Jeep will beat a Corvette sometimes, too. by Amouth · · Score: 1

      These examples sort of prove that it's pretty hard to have a one size fits all role the F35 is supposed to perform.

      Exactly, the only way you can make something do anything and everything, or take something and use it effectively for something it is i capable of doing requires an insane amount of money and effort which in the end will be unsustainable.

      Sounds exactly like the F35 program to me.

      --
      '...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
    14. Re:A Jeep will beat a Corvette sometimes, too. by TemporalBeing · · Score: 1

      And at the same time think it will still perform like a Corvette.

      Yep, typical DOD contract - instead of asking for the moon, they ask for the galaxy; then let the contractor try to build it, and eventually settle for Jupiter.

      --
      Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
    15. Re:A Jeep will beat a Corvette sometimes, too. by axlworldstore · · Score: 1

      This is not a old stuff to break them off. Perhaps we can say that this kind of F35 plane are design to blow the bunker in the main hole. US Government has build many of too drag them to down.

  3. Obligatory Simpsons reference by SirStiff · · Score: 4, Informative
  4. I'm sure more money would help by AndyKron · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If we could only double the price of the F-35 I'm sure it would be..... better.

  5. Re:I may have missed it but by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 4, Informative

    That's a Marine *cough* requirement.

    --
    Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
  6. Can someone explain? by nine-times · · Score: 2

    Can someone offer an explanation as to why this plane has not been adopted? I don't know anything about it.

    It'd be a real shame if it's really as simple as, "This is a great plane that's relatively cheap, and both military pilots and their commanders see these planes as serving a real purpose. Congress won't go for it though, because they want a super-expensive cool-looking boondoggle." But is it? Because this is one of those things where I'm suspicious that there's at least some kind of counter-argument.

    1. Re:Can someone explain? by schwit1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Lockheed Martin and Boeing don't want low cost weapons programs that utilize off the shelf components. The markup is too low.

    2. Re:Can someone explain? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      As per the citation compilation, it is in use. It's a nice little craft with pleasant maneuverability, great for training, fine for low-threat recon, and viable as a low-cost general purpose aircraft for countries that cannot afford to specialize.

      So, maybe the EMB314 would've been a better option for a joint-military general purpose aircraft than designing an overcomplicated modern option, but odds are the article and summary are nonsense.

    3. Re:Can someone explain? by OverlordQ · · Score: 4, Insightful

      > Can someone offer an explanation as to why this plane has not been adopted?

      Pork barrel politics and future private sector work. Why would they adopt something good and give up throwing projects to companies to guarantee them cushy jobs after they retire from the military

      --
      Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
    4. Re:Can someone explain? by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because the Air Force brass hates the Close Air Support (CAS) mission. It's partly a cultural thing - they want to fight wars where airpower is preeminent, where they take the starring role. They don't want to spend their time playing support to the Army/etc (despite the fact that it's been proven, time and again, that this is largely how you win wars - hitting infrastructure etc helps, but does not by itself win the war). They've been trying to kill off the A-10 for years, too, and only failing because the Army loves it, though they've managed to push it off to the Air National Guard.

      It probably also helps to understand that, even beyond this air warfare centric mentality, the Air Force is largely dominated at the senior levels by fighter pilots now. Ever since SAC's role and prominence was reduced following the end of the Cold War, fighter pilots have been preeminent, with strategic bombing coming in second, and close air support all but nonexistent. After all, look at the aircraft they're pushing - expensive hi-tech single-seater air combat platforms. They see something like the A-10, or the A-29 Super Tucano, as threats that take away money and resources that could be better used for more F-35s, despite the fact that it's overpriced and underperforming, and that you could probably get 10 A-29s or equivalent for 1 F-35, or better.

    5. Re:Can someone explain? by Wrath0fb0b · · Score: 1

      Because the Air Force brass hates the Close Air Support (CAS) mission. It's partly a cultural thing - they want to fight wars where airpower is preeminent, where they take the starring role. They don't want to spend their time playing support to the Army/etc (despite the fact that it's been proven, time and again, that this is largely how you win wars - hitting infrastructure etc helps, but does not by itself win the war). They've been trying to kill off the A-10 for years, too, and only failing because the Army loves it, though they've managed to push it off to the Air National Guard.

      No, Air Superiority does not itself win wars. But if there's a large-scale shooting war between real powers, failure to control the air will definitely prevent you from winning. In that light, I wouldn't say they hate the CAS job, only that they rank it as less mission-critical than establishing superiority in the air, or at the very least denying it to the enemy. That makes some sense -- it would be foolish to optimize the Air Force for CAS/low-intensity-warfare only to be vaporized by the Chinese or the Russians in an (admittedly unlikely) worst-case scenario -- it might be lower probability than Afghanistan but it's also much higher stakes.

      That said, I think just about everyone can agree that (a) CAS should be elsewhere than the USAF and (b) The F35 sucks.

    6. Re:Can someone explain? by JumboMessiah · · Score: 1

      Hmmm, Senior Levels? GENERAL MARK A. WELSH III Chief of Staff of the U.S. Air Force is a former A-10 pilot. He knows CAS very well and will quickly point out that the USAF flys over 20,000 CAS sorties per year.

      Yes, our troop need both hi and lo CAS protection. The A-10/Tucano along with the F-35 is a great combination, but Congress won't fully allocate the money for both. So the choice is hard, but has to be made. The A-10 fleet isn't going anywhere at the current moment it will be flying until 2020. And the reserve hogs will remain in backup status.

    7. Re:Can someone explain? by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 1

      Yes, CAS really needs to go to the people who care about it (i.e. the Army). Attack Helicopters cover part of it, but have some drawbacks in that they can be a lot more fragile than something like the A-10. You can't fill that role with a simple flyby of something coming in at high speed, dropping a pair of bombs, and racing off - all that does is make the enemy hunker down for maybe 5-10 minutes at most. After that, they're back to shooting. Give me something with lots of dwell time anyday - that's the sort of thing something like an A-10, or the A-29 mentioned in the article, are really good for.

    8. Re:Can someone explain? by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      I wasn't aware that the UK is a "south-American state of dubious friendship to the US."

    9. Re:Can someone explain? by JeffOwl · · Score: 1

      Don't know about the A-29 specifically, but it would be a completely different purpose than an F-35. The A-29 is more like a cheap A-10, without the big gun.

    10. Re:Can someone explain? by tsotha · · Score: 1

      Because it's a single use tool. Sure, it would be great for shooting up groups of twenty guys running around with RPGs and rusty AK-47s. But if we got into a fight with a country that has a non-trivial air defense, it would be completely useless where the F-35 would shine. This kind of article is a perfect exemplar of the "fight the last war" mentality.

  7. Its not the F35 killing this, its the T6 by random+coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    The reason this is being killed is its from Embraer; and Embraer has no issue with selling to everyone, including potential adversaries. Congress wants them to use the T6 Texan II based system which is local(USA and Switserland instead of purely Brazil).

    Besides all that all the A-29 Super Tucano's that the Air Force was going to buy were to be given to the Afgani air force.

    1. Re:Its not the F35 killing this, its the T6 by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 2

      I'm not quite sure where the F-35 comes into this in the first place. I assume either ignorance or baiting. From what I can tell, they don't share the same roles. Embraer cites the AT-6 as the competition.

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    2. Re:Its not the F35 killing this, its the T6 by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 2

      The problem is that they're trying to make the F-35 replace the A-10 in addition to other aircraft...

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    3. Re:Its not the F35 killing this, its the T6 by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 3, Informative

      The Air Force doesn't want either plane. They don't want to fly the Close Air Support mission, and to the extent that they do, they want to use F-35s to do it.

    4. Re:Its not the F35 killing this, its the T6 by random+coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      The real problem is that Air Force Procurements are so broken they can't afford to replace any system for less than a trillion dollars. Right now the Air Force needs to replace:
      A10->?
      C5->? (C17 replaced C141)
      Minuteman3->?
      OH-1 Huey ->?
      EF111->?(oh lets outsource that to the navy and borrow their EF-18's)
      Then there are the ones they are replaceing and having debacles:
      F15->F22(which was canceled because cost to much, and is causing pilots to get sick)
      F16,F18,AV8b-> F-35
      KC-135-> competition for the KC-46 went into multiple lawsuits and an $800million charge for Boeing, Now theyre working a new KC-X procurement because of problems with the KC-46
      The procurement issues with the Tucano and AT-6 are small beans in the grand scheme of things.
      Honestly they'd like to give the close support role to the Army, but they don't want to give up the budget that entails, and they don't want to allow the army to fly fixed wing. On the other hand they're about to lose one leg of the nuclear triad because they won't have a replacement for their ICBM's when they end of life in a couple years; and they know its coming and aren't able to deal with it. I guess I should put a link to the self licking ice cream cone here but meh; you can google it.

    5. Re:Its not the F35 killing this, its the T6 by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      KC-135-> competition for the KC-46 went into multiple lawsuits and an $800million charge for Boeing, Now theyre working a new KC-X procurement because of problems with the KC-46

      Not sure what you mean by this, but the KC-X contest went through several stages and was eventually won by Boeing with the KC-46 a few years ago - the first aircraft are already being produced, and there is currently no issue with the contract or procurement.

  8. sunk costs are NO excuse by deadweight · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Can we PLEASE cancel the F-35 and develop airplanes we can actually use? The F-35 reminds me of a sci-fi book where alien horde A has primitive ships, but a lot of them. They also are not too bright and throw more ships at every battle. Their enemies, alien horde B, keep coming up with new inventions and more amazing ships. Their ships get so expensive even losing a few bankrupts them and they surrender.

    1. Re:sunk costs are NO excuse by CastrTroy · · Score: 2

      The Germans had a similar problem in World War II from what I remember. They built some extremely advanced and expensive tanks, but they couldn't build a lot of them. Along come the Russians with thousands of cheap, light tanks, and they basically run circles around the Germans. The US also had the Liberty Ship which they could build very fast. It didn't matter that the Germans were sinking a lot of ships with their u-boats, because the Americans just deployed more boats than the Germans could deal with.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    2. Re:sunk costs are NO excuse by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      The F-35 reminds me of a sci-fi book where alien horde A has primitive ships, but a lot of them.

      It doesn't remind me of fiction, but instead, of what really happened during WWII. The allies (USA especially) outproduced Germany with less effective, but more numerous weapons.

      For the past 70 years, the USA has been preparing for war against a high-tech opponent, but fighting wars against low-tech opponents.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    3. Re:sunk costs are NO excuse by SvnLyrBrto · · Score: 3, Informative

      So, basically, we've convinced ourselves somehow that we're the Protoss. But we've forgotten that the last time we won a war... as in seriously and definitively winning the war and not leaving a DMZ or cesspool of sectarian conflict behind... we won it by being the Zerg.

      Much better than a car analogy. :)

      --
      Imagine all the people...
    4. Re:sunk costs are NO excuse by xleeko · · Score: 4, Informative

      The F-35 reminds me of a sci-fi book where alien horde A has primitive ships, but a lot of them. They also are not too bright and throw more ships at every battle. Their enemies, alien horde B, keep coming up with new inventions and more amazing ships. Their ships get so expensive even losing a few bankrupts them and they surrender.

      Not a book, a short story.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    5. Re:sunk costs are NO excuse by liquid_schwartz · · Score: 2

      Don't be silly we are clearly the Terrans. We used a nuke in the last real war.

    6. Re:sunk costs are NO excuse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Hate to kill your meme, but it was Air Superiority which enabled the Sherman to advance. The German Tiger was vastly superior, against the Sherman, but it could be easily killed from the Anglo air forces which dominated the sky (planes can attack from behind and above, where the armor was thin). Had it been a "fair" fight, the Shermans would have been driven into the sea again. A single Tiger tank once killed 15 Shermans, because the armor and the gun was so much better. They even killed more Shermans with the tracks shot off.

      Also, the USAAF did their best to destroy German synfuel (coal to gas) factories and the Tiger certainly was a gas guzzler, like all tanks.

      Whenever the Sherman met the Tiger, he better came from the sides, the back or with serious airpower backup.

      Also, the inital German panzers were vastly inferior to Russian and also French tanks. It was all about better tactics (massed offenses instead of infantery support). Also Stalin was kinda parnoid and had killed off almost all generals, while Hitler had not done this...

      Finally, the P51 was better than the Me109. Much better range.

    7. Re:sunk costs are NO excuse by umghhh · · Score: 1

      I imagine this could be one of the problems Germans had but given ruthless Soviet leadership and their apparently unlimited sources of cheap cannon fodder there is no way Germany could win. Overengineered designs was still silly. Seems like US military procurement did not learn from them and that is why US have now F35.

    8. Re:sunk costs are NO excuse by rossdee · · Score: 1

      I thought the problem of having to recharge batteries with a diesel engine was solved 60 years ago by Nautilus (SSN 571) and for the last 45 years or more we have only made nuclear boats

    9. Re:sunk costs are NO excuse by barc0001 · · Score: 1

      Classic Zerg vs Protoss. Quantity is a quality all its own. For the swarm...

    10. Re:sunk costs are NO excuse by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      Albert Speer did a pretty damn good job of ramping up German production after 1943. The Germans were producing more tanks in 1944 than they did in 1941. What killed the Germans was that they were too slow to ramp up, their designs were superior in many ways, but very, very touchy, and they completely lost air superiority. Also, they tried to fight a two front war. Actually, a more than two front war. Oh, and their form of government was based on overlapping responsibilities for high ranking Nazis which was more for keeping anyone from overthrowing Hitler than it was for any sort of efficiency.

      The Panthers and Tigers would have been probably better off scaled back, or at least, designed with less complicated components. It would have helped a lot, but it is hard to see how Germany could have taken on both the US and USSR at the same time. Quantity does have a quality all its own.

    11. Re:sunk costs are NO excuse by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Don't dis Russian tanks. The T-34/85, which was Russia's main tank in the latter part of the war, was damn good. Better than the M4 Sherman or the PzKpfw IV, although not quite as good as the Panther. We were the ones with the crappy tanks (the aforementioned Sherman), although our tank crews were generally better than the Russians'.

    12. Re:sunk costs are NO excuse by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Reminds me of WWII. Panzer were fantastic tanks, Sherman tanks were closer to a modern day prius by comparison... Sherman's won out only due to superior numbers (and maneuverability because they lacked the large gun the panzers had).
      ME 109 was a marvelous piece of engineering, but the US brought far more planes to bear than germany could squeeze out of their bombed out factories.

      Hell Germans had Machine guns, and The soviets lead cavalry charges into them... in stalingrad every other man got a rifle..

      Oh, God, where to start. The Me-109 was a good plane. It was also old. The P-51, which was our main fighter in the latter part of the war, outflew it five ways from Sunday. The FW-190, developed during the war, did better, but didn't fly well at high altitudes. The Germans also couldn't build enough of them to take over completely from the 109s.

      The Soviets never led cavalry charges into machine guns. Soviet cavalry was deployed mostly in the Pripet Marshes--where they did very well, the Pripet being unfriendly ground for your average vehicle, even if it's tracked.

      "In Stalingrad every other man got a rifle"? The Soviets had to strain for men and equipment in Stalingrad, but that's not even remotely true. And one reason Stalingrad itself went short was because the Russians were saving up for a devasting blow on the German's lightly held flanks outside of Stalingrad--which enabled them to completely surrond the Sixth Army and ultimately destroy it.

    13. Re:sunk costs are NO excuse by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Reminds me of WWII. Panzer were fantastic tanks, Sherman tanks were closer to a modern day prius by comparison... Sherman's won out only due to superior numbers (and maneuverability because they lacked the large gun the panzers had).
      ME 109 was a marvelous piece of engineering, but the US brought far more planes to bear than germany could squeeze out of their bombed out factories.

      Hell Germans had Machine guns, and The soviets lead cavalry charges into them... in stalingrad every other man got a rifle..

      Oh, God, where to start. The Me-109 was a good plane. It was also old. The P-51, which was our main fighter in the latter part of the war, outflew it five ways from Sunday. The FW-190, developed during the war, did better, but didn't fly well at high altitudes. The Germans also couldn't build enough of them to take over completely from the 109s.

      The Soviets never led cavalry charges into machine guns. Soviet cavalry was deployed mostly in the Pripet Marshes--where they did very well, the Pripet being unfriendly ground for your average vehicle, even if it's tracked.

      "In Stalingrad every other man got a rifle"? The Soviets had to strain for men and equipment in Stalingrad, but that's not even remotely true. And one reason Stalingrad itself went short was because the Russians were saving up for a devasting blow on the German's lightly held flanks outside of Stalingrad--which enabled them to completely surrond the Sixth Army and ultimately destroy it.

      Germany's main problem wasn't it's weapons, it was it's leaders. Hitler had issued so many stupid decrees that ended up getting people killed such as disallowing retreat and demanding immediate counter attacks. Germany's tactics became predictable. Add to this the fact that Hitler was also very easily fooled (even as Allied troops landed at Normandy he insisted that the invasion would be at Calais).

      The downfall of the Panzer's was their complexity. This again, was due to Hitler who wanted bigger tanks with bigger guns, the problem with adding more weight is that you need more power. The Achilles heel of the King Tiger wasn't cost or range (although it's fuel consumption was horrendous), it was it's transmission. If you tried to drive the tank at more than 30 KPH for any length of time the transmissions would just die.

      It was the same story with the Me262. Hitler insisted that it was constructed as a bomber and eventually compromised on a fighter/bomber. This limited it's top speed and manoeuvrability which is the only reason allied fighters like the P51 were able to combat it.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    14. Re:sunk costs are NO excuse by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      The problem with that lesson for the west is that they can't possibly compete with anybody in a zergging battle. In realistic wars the US is going to be fighting in obscure foreign places for obscure foreign reasons, and the US public isn't going to be happy with lots of kids dying on the other side of the world. Plus you don't want to go up against people with nothing to lose with a cheap and plentiful strategy. The other possible adversaries are the Chinese, and you also don't want to go man-for-man with them.

    15. Re:sunk costs are NO excuse by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      There are disadvantages to nuclear subs. They need to be bigger to house the reactors, and are usually noisier because the reactors require constant cooling. They're also extremely expensive. Diesel-electric subs are used by most of the world other than the US, Russia and China.

    16. Re:sunk costs are NO excuse by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      German tanks weren't really that advanced. Yes, there were some ahead-of-time features like IR searchlights on some Panthers, but other than that the only actually good part of German tanks was their main gun and its ammunition. Both Panzer IV and Tiger 1 were both pretty much early 1930ies designs and only Panther, which was built as an answer to T-34 has started to use sloped armour. German tanks also used gasoline engines instead of the much more sensible Diesel engines. Even the notion that German tanks were overengineered is mostly not correct, the only overengineered part of Tiger and Panther was their strange overlapping wheel drivetrain.

      All in all, Russian designs like T-34 or IS-2 were much more advanced, with better engines (the V-2 Diesel engine was an astonishingly good design, in fact even today many Russian tanks and tractors still use distant descendants of it)
      and better armour. A followup design, T-44, was revolutionary in many ways, but never saw combat and was further developed into the T-54 instead.

      American tanks in WW2 were also used more high tech than German tanks - like gun stabilisers, allowing the tanks to actually hit their targets when firing while moving.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    17. Re:sunk costs are NO excuse by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      German tanks varied. The Pz IV, the rough equivalent to the Sherman, was about as good. The Pz V Panther was maybe 50% heavier, and used that extra size effectively. The Pz VI Tiger, available in limited numbers, was bigger than that. Shermans tended to win because they were backed by excellent artillery and (by mid-1944) overwhelming air support, but were good tanks anyway in most situations. They were quite capable of taking out Panthers at reasonable battle ranges, if they could get a flank or rear shot.

      In 1944 and thereafter, US aircraft were not only more numerous than their German counterparts, but frequently better. The Germans might have managed to get back a temporary quality advantage, but they lost first.

      Everybody had machine guns, although the German ones were very good. Everybody had artillery, none as good as the Brits and US. Cavalry could wind up hit by machine gun fire in an ambush, or if German vehicles came up fast, but Red Army cavalry was generally pretty competent and avoided such situations. The Soviets had been desperate for small arms around the end of 1941, but that was taken care of pretty fast. By Stalingrad, the Soviets had enough personal weapons and were building up larger mechanized formations.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    18. Re:sunk costs are NO excuse by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      German tanks were inferior to Soviet and French tanks in some respects, not in others.

      In 1940, the French tanks were sometimes better armored, and with better guns, but their ergonomics were horrible and they lacked radios. Tanks really aren't dangerous. Soldiers in tanks are very dangerous, and how dangerous they are depends on their tank and how well they can use it. It was a lot easier to get maximum effect out of a German tank than a French, and the possession of radios meant German tanks could fairly easily maneuver as units. This carried forward into the Soviet Union. The Germans didn't have a tank comparable to the T-34 in gun and armor until sometime in 1942, but the T-34s were hard to use correctly and lacked radios.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    19. Re:sunk costs are NO excuse by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Hitler didn't enforce complex tanks. The Panther was actually not much more expensive than the considerably smaller Pz IV (until you added in the gun; the Panther's gun was considerably more expensive).

      The Me 262 would not have been much better, or much sooner, if it had been built initially as a fighter. It had no particular maneuverability, partly a limitation of its engines, which had a tendency to flame out under significant Gs. There was nothing wrong with its top speed or its armament. Allied prop fighters generally didn't combat it in the air at all well, but rather hung around the distinctive airfields with the unusually long runways, and got them taking off and landing. It's the closest thing I've found in WWII to spawn camping.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    20. Re:sunk costs are NO excuse by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      An engineer friend of mine went to a US tank museum and looked at German, US, and Soviet tanks.

      The Soviet tanks were built crudely, with what machining equipment they had available. Armor was cut with cutting torches, and automobile fenders were bent metal. They were not weatherproofed. The Soviets figured that, if a tank managed to last six months, they could replace it anyway. US tanks were made better, because of better US industrial infrastructure. The armor was cut with bandsaws, and jeep fenders were metal curved in one direction. German tanks were made to high standards. Armor was presumably cut with bandsaws, then machined to a nice finish, an operation that did nothing for their combat effectiveness. Kubelwagen fenders had a nice complex curve. They were designed to last, and that cost money.

      The Germans were able to simplify things later in the war, but they wasted a lot of industrial capacity on high-quality things that simply didn't matter in the war.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    21. Re:sunk costs are NO excuse by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The T-34/85 had different strengths than the Sherman. In mid-1944, First Guards Mechanized Corps, used as a high-quality exploitation formation, turned its T-34/85s in for Shermans (with the 76mm gun). The Shermans were considered decent battlefield tanks, if not as good as the T-34/85, and they were more reliable, and hence better to use in exploitation.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    22. Re:sunk costs are NO excuse by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      US weapons were not less effective overall.

      The Germans had heavier tanks, rather than inherently better tanks. US artillery was much better, mostly in organization and doctrine. US warplanes were generally better than the German, from 1944 on. The US had worse machine guns and, for the most part, a better infantry rifle.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    23. Re:sunk costs are NO excuse by deadweight · · Score: 1

      Thanks - been a long time since I read that.

    24. Re:sunk costs are NO excuse by deadweight · · Score: 1

      The Polish pilots flying for Britain would hang around the egress routes back to Germany and attack the homebound aircraft that were low on fuel and ammo. To the great annoyance of the RAF, the Poles didn't care so much for stopping them on the way in as killing as many as they could on the way out. I think the P-51 pilots likewise didn't fight the 262s in the air so much as attack them while they were taking off and landing. (digression, some people have the certs and plans for the Me-262 and FW-190 and were making sporadic attempts to build more. No idea how far they got)

  9. Sort of a perverse race... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

    Given that a $4million unit cost, and availability of functioning models, makes it virtually impossible to piss away money as fast as you can with the F-35, I can't really argue with the notion that it 'gives it a run for its money'; but only if the expected use case is strafing hapless peasants with zero air force and maybe a technical with a couple of 20mm cannons for AA.

    There's something a bit...chilling...about a procurement process so out of control that attempting to keep the cost and sophistication of hardware intended for beating down a force 75 years behind the times is a major political battle, and not even a winnable one.

    1. Re:Sort of a perverse race... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      This is pretty much the intended role of those things. It was actually noted a while ago that in asymmetrical conflicts, modern airplanes are simply not cost effective - you have a machine designed for dogfights against its equal and/or to penetrate strong air defenses, and you use it to basically blow up camels in a desert. It comes with an astronomical price tag to begin with, it's very costly to run and maintain, has high standards for airfields it can be used from, and if god forbid it gets damaged (which in CAS is a matter of "when", not "if"), is also costly to repair. In contrast, a lightweight turboprop focused solely on CAS can easily be cheaper by orders of magnitude, is very reliable and cost effective, and is just as resilient (if not more) in fact of threats that it'd actually face on the battlefield.

      I believe the first time this point was made, and actually implemented, was the MiniCOIN during the Biafra War, and it was quite successful - and that wasn't even a plane purpose-built for the role, but rather minimally adapted to it.

  10. Apples and lasers by rickb928 · · Score: 2

    A turboprop sure could be a fabulous close ground support aircraft. So could the A-10, and we already have those.

    Trying to develop the F-35 into a jack-of-all-trades is proving to top expensive, too difficult, too much. We really should reconsider some of the multiple roles projected for the F-35, and keep the A-10.

    --
    deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    1. Re:Apples and lasers by evilviper · · Score: 1

      A turboprop sure could be a fabulous close ground support aircraft. So could the A-10

      You're right... It's a damn good thing all those drones are prop-driven.

      What, did you really think the F-35 was why the A-10 is being retired?

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    2. Re: Apples and lasers by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      The A-10 is an excellent LAS aircraft. It's being retired for a variety of reasons; reduce expenses to funnel money to the F-35, to create a need for a LAS replacement, to reduce the number of airframes and enhance the need for a multi role fighter.

      The MQ-1/MQ-9 are prop driven, but the RQ-170 has a turbofan, and surveillance drones get repurchased and weaponised. I suspect props were not chosen for some inherent advantage any more than slow speed also aids the pilot in managing a difficult task. But these all do make prop driven drones useful and the current state of the art.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
  11. It is not a WW-II era plane. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The super tucano is a thoroughly modern plane that happens to use a propeller.

    Who wrote this shit?

    1. Re:It is not a WW-II era plane. by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      It is not a WW-II era plane.

      TFS says WWII-Era INSPIRED plane.

      The thing looks quite like a Hurricane, so that's not a bad comparison. It really looks much more like a WWII fighter than anything else produced today.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
  12. WWII? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's not a "WWII-era" plane just because it has a propeller. Is the Humvee WWII-era because it has wheels??

  13. Re:A-10 for the win! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Both the superTucano and the A-10 are irrelevant against a modern IADS, and will be bled by modern handheld SAMs. Yes, you can eat the first one in an A-10, but you're still out of the fight for a week.

    Whlie the armchair quarterbacks have been bitching, they've been replaced with reaper (think supertucaon without an ejection seat). When one of those gets shot down or crashes, well, we pull another out of a coffin, put the wings on, and 2 hours later we have another one for a hell of a lot less than the cost of training a replacement pilot.

  14. What's old is new again. by russbutton · · Score: 4, Interesting

    A bit more than 40 years ago, the military tried to develop a one-size-fits-all aircraft to be used by all of the services to replace the F-4 Phantom. It was the F-111. It ended up being too big to launch from aircraft carriers and not suitable for dog-fighting, but people thought it was cool because of the swing-wings. An expensive plane that ended up with little real use. There is also a fascination with technology in the military, with the notion that new tech gives you a significant edge. When you have to develop new tech throughout the platform, it gets expensive and inevitably you find flaws and problems you just can't overcome. Not that this doesn't happen in the private sector either. Remember the Apple Newton?

    As for the A-29, pilots loved the A-10, which was essentially a flying tank. It had an armoured cockpit and was the first aircraft engineered to be shot at and keep fighting. What's not to love?

    1. Re:What's old is new again. by LWATCDR · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "An expensive plane that ended up with little real use."
      No it made an excellent long range strike aircraft and did very well in desert storm. The reason it was retired was that it was old and expensive to maintain and the USAF wanted more F-15Es. Which could dogfight.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    2. Re:What's old is new again. by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The really sad thing about the F-111 was that it actually could have been a good plane, if they'd bothered to make different versions tailored to the different needs of each of the services, rather than trying to force a "one size fits all" mentality. The Navy, incidentally, went back to the drawing board after they backed out of supporting the F-111, and came up with the F-14 Tomcat. There's no way they'd be capable of doing that in today's environment, sadly.

      The F-35 might have been at least halfway decent if we didn't have to design the whole plane around the Marines' VSTOL requirement, which is really the primary thing that kills it (aside from the ridiculous attempt to assign the CAS role to it).

    3. Re:What's old is new again. by Walter+White · · Score: 1

      As for the A-29, pilots loved the A-10, which was essentially a flying tank. It had an armoured cockpit and was the first aircraft engineered to be shot at and keep fighting. What's not to love?

      From Wikipedia (A-10 Thunderbolt) "The aircraft is designed to fly with one engine, one tail, one elevator, and half of one wing missing" What's not to love indeed!

      I suppose the real problem is cost or more accurately profit for the defense contractors. Whereas the A-10 seems to be about $12 million each the F-35 is coming in at over $200 million each.

      I'm not a warrior or aircraft designer but it seems to be well known that something designed to perform various different functions usually does none of them well. Too many criteria conflict and require compromise.

    4. Re:What's old is new again. by coolmoose25 · · Score: 1

      Mod parent up. The F111 is the perfect example of why you DON'T try and build a plane to take on more than one, maybe two, roles. Why did we build both the F16 and the F15 at essentially the same time? Two different roles. The F15 was originally designed to be a deep interdiction plane to shoot down Russian bombers. F16's are not meant to do that. They are supposed to provide in theater air superiority. So the 16 has one engine, the 15 has two. Not to mention the 16 is cheaper. The F14 was of the same era, but designed around the all important tail hook. Add the A-10's and you've got yourself a great air force (AF, Navy, Marines) and nobody's gonna stop you.

      Today, we killed the A-10 to feed the F35 machine, a plane that essentially tries to be one aircraft for everyone. But that is even harder to do today, because all our planes have to have INTERNAL bomb bays for stealth now, which means that you lose flexibility on all those planes. Some of the 35's will be VSTAL, some will be Air Force fighters, some try to be Marine attack aircraft. The end result? They can't do any of them really well. At least the Air Force was able to hedge its bets with the F22 - the greatest fighter plane ever made. But they got too few of them as they are so expensive.

      The bottom line is our military must work out what planes they need for what roles, share the components of those planes only when it makes sense to do so, and stop thinking about the export market. Let Lockheed Martin and Boeing figure that stuff out. Let our military spec the planes they need, and pay the contractors to build what they want. If you do that, no one will challenge the US from the air.

      --
      Brawndo: It's what plants crave!
    5. Re:What's old is new again. by Big_Breaker · · Score: 2

      Your last point about the Marine requirements is spot on.

      They should have designed an Air Force / Navy only version and gotten that fully operational: software bugs worked out, airframe defects fixed, flight/battle tested etc. The costs of the program would be much lower, so more planes, fewer design compromises, more buyers. By that point (which is several years from now) typically there are airframe optimizations and engine upgrades ready that were not available in the initial design. Take those improvements, apply to a dual seat trainer airframe (so you have enough space) and make your STOVL Marine variant. If weight is still a problem consider dropping stealth. Anti SAM and air superiority are a job for the Air Force.

      Instead the tail wagged the dog with Marine variant and now we have a big ol' expensive mess.

      Re: CAS - I think it is likely to become a drone mission anyhow. Better to have ordinance on a cheap airframe with no pilot. It doesn't matter if it gets shot down and you can have a larger number of cheaper planes. Software flies to and from the battlefield so fewer remote pilots needed - done.

    6. Re:What's old is new again. by Deadstick · · Score: 1

      pilots loved the A-10...was the first aircraft engineered to be shot at and keep fighting

      Might want to google "Sturmovik".

    7. Re:What's old is new again. by Gim+Tom · · Score: 1

      The F-111 was pretty much Robert Strange McNamara's baby. He was the consummate bean counter, but combat is different from counting beans. Actually, one of the most used aircraft in my neck of the woods in SEA was the A1-E under the call sign Sandy. My neck of the woods was NOT Vietnam (although I have the Vietnam service medal and credit for a Vietnam tour of duty), but other places nearby. When I got off the transport at my base in 1971 I thought I had gone through a time warp. Everything in sight had propellers and many were tail dragers to boot.

    8. Re:What's old is new again. by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Well, the F-111 wasn't a total failure. It was a damn fine medium bomber, actually. But yeah, when they tried to make it do every function they could think of, it sucked. And it was never a good fit for either the Navy or the Marines, being too damn big.

    9. Re:What's old is new again. by StevenMaurer · · Score: 1

      Your historical perspective is admirable, but not apropos. In WW2, planes really only had bullets to shoot at each other. Large SAMs today can take any plane out of a fight. The A10 armor is really only useful against stuff that is handheld, and even then it's by no means perfect.

    10. Re:What's old is new again. by mjwx · · Score: 1

      "An expensive plane that ended up with little real use."
      No it made an excellent long range strike aircraft and did very well in desert storm. The reason it was retired was that it was old and expensive to maintain and the USAF wanted more F-15Es. Which could dogfight.

      This is why the Australian Air Force (RAAF) operated them up until about 5 years ago when they were replaced with F/A 18F's which dont have the same range (which is kind of a big deal when talking about Australia).

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    11. Re:What's old is new again. by evilviper · · Score: 1

      The F-35 might have been at least halfway decent if we didn't have to design the whole plane around the Marines' VSTOL requirement

      The Marines get too much credit for this design. The F-35 was designed in collaboration with other countries, to be sold for export.

      The allied countries in question have navies, but not full-sized aircraft carriers like the US. The UK in particular is getting rid of its Harriers and ordering F-35s. Without STOL, not as many F-35s would be sold.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    12. Re: What's old is new again. by jake.tiger · · Score: 1

      This is just bullshit. People have such a dumbass love for the cult of the gun. At one point in Iraq the A10 was grounded because they had 16 A10's out of the battle. It was decided they had to be held out of the fight with any unit that was even remotely cohesive and equipped. Fact of the matter is the A10 was made for battling tanks in the Fulda gap and it has no place or survivability in the modern battlefield. Sure it works against insurgents without even MANPADS, but thats not really that hard is it? But when it comes to low conflict hammering of under-equipped insurgents you don't need a A10 do you, you could use the A-29, drones or attack choppers.

    13. Re: What's old is new again. by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      The more modern versions of Osa use missiles with 10m minimum engagement altitude. Their maximum range is also well beyond the Hellfire range.
      Tunguska's missile minimum altitude is 5m. That is significantly below 100 ft. In fact, Tunguska was specifically developed to rape the Warthog. Both Osa and Tunguska outrange the Hellfire missile (in fact the more modern versions outrange the Hellfire by far).

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    14. Re:What's old is new again. by jabuzz · · Score: 1

      Nope the thinking was you needed a nuclear powered aircraft carrier for the steam catapult so we needed the V/STOL aircraft for the carriers because we where building aircraft carriers what are powered by gas turbines and diesel engines.

      There were two problems with this. The first is that a nuclear aircraft carrier with steam catapult would have been cheaper because you could use cheaper aircraft.

      Problem number two was that even as the Queen Elizabeth class was being designed it was clear that the future was "rail gun" Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch Systems and these would work just fine with gas turbine/diesel powered aircraft carriers. The contract for the HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales even had an option to covert to EMALS, however due to the stupidity of the contracts signed with BAE, it was going to be cheaper to build new aircraft carriers than convert to EMALS. So we are back stuck buying the F35-B.

      Unfortunately the Queen Elizabeth class carriers have been a monumental fuck up, and will go into service with no planes.

    15. Re:What's old is new again. by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      They also lack the payload and speed of the F-111.
      Frankly if the USAF remanufactured the F-111s they way they did the B-52 and replaced the TF-30s with F110s they would still be a good aircraft.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
  15. Re:A-10 for the win! by russbutton · · Score: 1

    Yup! Best USAF ground attack aircraft ever made.

  16. VSTOL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    but a prop aircraft being smaller and lighter does not require long runways...

    1. Re:VSTOL by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      But think of all the military subcontractors this would have put out of work ...

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  17. Re:I may have missed it but by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

    Navy?

    --
    There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
  18. Re:Bullshit by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

    The DOD is buying the F-35 and that's that.

    Yesss massa!

  19. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I'm not sure what you think close air support is, but it isn't the B-52 strategic bomber.

  20. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Because the F-35 is a money pit that is under-performing. If it was able to deliver nobody would care.

  21. Re:Bullshit by schwit1 · · Score: 1

    Hey Marillyn, welcome to /.

  22. Re:Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Obviously you've never been taking incoming and wishing you had an A-10 on hand. All an F-16 does, or an F-35 will do, is quite things down for a few minutes before it goes away. With an A-10 you can actually catch some sleep.

  23. Great Plane by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    My very first job was maintenance on A-10 Warthogs courtesy of the USAF. I can tell you know that I've seen a lot of bird maintenance, and the turboprops are stone cold reliable and very cost effective. It's a myth that militaries and drud interdiction forces need whizbang jets. Ask the Germans and the Japanese what good pilots in "slow" prop jobs can do. Modern turboprops are cheaper to make, fly, train with, and the maintenance and parts are orders or magnitude less expensive.

    To this day, I prefer and choose to fly on turboprop planes if and whenever possible. My most memorable flights have been on prop planes, like flying over the Atlantic and Pacific on C-130s, island hopping in the Atlantic on Bombadier Dash 8 turboprops. Nothing says fun like turboprops.

    1. Re:Great Plane by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Good pilots in slow planes could often avoid being shot down in dogfights. Missiles are harder to evade with slow maneuverability. The Germans kept increasing fighter speed. The Japanese had problems doing so, and that made their fighters increasingly ineffective. After the introduction of the F6F Hellcat carrier fighter, significantly faster than most Japanese fighters, the USN was able to conduct what looked like daring raids and invasions reliably.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  24. I would love to see them use the PA-48 by davesays · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The PA-48 Enforcer is a gorgeous plane. Basically an armored, tubo-propped P51 Mustang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

  25. IT IS NOT! by LWATCDR · · Score: 2, Informative

    A-29 Super Tucano is not a WWII Era plane! that headline is a flat out lie.
    Also the A-29 would beat a F-35 for COIN. It is useless for any other mission.
    Good GRIEF! The editors on Slashdot are now at the FOX News/MSNBC/Nation Enquire level!

    --
    See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    1. Re:IT IS NOT! by drfishy · · Score: 1

      No kidding... Wow. Pathetic - and I'm usually not one to comment.

    2. Re:IT IS NOT! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Re-read the headline. It clearly says "World War II era __inspired___ plane". If you spent half as much time working on your reading comprehension as your insults, you wouldn't have a problem parsing such a simple headline.

    3. Re:IT IS NOT! by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      They edited the headline...

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
  26. WWII was in the 1990s??? by Xolotl · · Score: 2, Informative

    The Super Tucano is no more a "WWII-era" plane than the F-35 is, it first flew in the late 1990s, and is derived from the 1980s Tucano. The F-35 began development at about the same time as the Super Tucano ...

    About all that's "reminiscent" of WWII designs is that is has a prop ... but then the first pure jets flew in WWII too.

    1. Re:WWII was in the 1990s??? by Solandri · · Score: 1

      bout all that's "reminiscent" of WWII designs is that is has a prop

      It's a turboprop. Basically an unducted version of a turbofan jet engine like you see on the 777/A380. Those enclose the bypass fans in a duct, and the fan blades are designed appropriately. A turboprop doesn't use a duct, and its fan blades are designed appropriately. It has nothing in common with WWII piston-driven aircraft aside from the fan blades looking like a propeller because the physics of aerodynamics doesn't change with the passage of time.

    2. Re:WWII was in the 1990s??? by Xolotl · · Score: 1

      Yes, I know. My point was that the fact that it has a propeller is about the only thing common with a WW2 piston-driven plane.

    3. Re:WWII was in the 1990s??? by Xolotl · · Score: 1

      Obviously it is not a supersonic interceptor, though neither is the F-35. How 'modern' the Super Tucano is depends on your definition of modern. Is it stealthy? no. Is it build from composites with fly-by-light or whatever? no. Does (or rather, can) it have modern glass cockpits, comms, datalink, precision munitions, engine and so on? yes. As I said, design on it started at about the same time (mid 1990s) as on the F-35. What they are though is designed for different roles. It's not out of date, it's in a different category. You wouldn't send your racing driver out in an out of date car, but you would send him out in a current model rally car without all the carbon fibre and aero of an F1 car if he was racing in a rally. Sending a pilot out in a Super Tucano makes perfect sense in the right mission.

  27. Re:Bullshit by PPH · · Score: 1

    The DOD is buying the F-35 and that's that.

    You are missing the F-35's major feature. It's just bad enough to be exportable. We (Lockheed) can sell these to any two bit government. It's good enough to elicit an "Oooooo! Shiny!" response from them. But it's not quite as good as the F-22. So if we should ever have to face them in air-to-air combat, we can still knock them down like flies.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  28. Re:Bullshit by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 1

    Only if by cost you mean the US GDP.

  29. Bring back by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 1

    the Arrow!

  30. How cheap can we build new Douglas Skyraiders? by swb · · Score: 2

    They saw service in Viet Nam including shooting down Mig-17s.

  31. No, update the A-10 by perpenso · · Score: 1

    Screw changing anything, just stick with the A-10 Warthog, a proven worthy opponent on the battlefield (and a beautiful, tough aircraft to boot!)

    No, update the A-10. Include folding wings, sturdier landing gear and a tail hook so that it can be aircraft carrier capable. Then the Marines will be allowed to fly it. Note that the Marines believe that aircraft exist for one and only one reason, to support the Infantry. Marine pilots had to become qualified infantry officers before they were even allowed to go to flight school. The A-10 is a perfect fit for Marine culture, from privates to generals to the commandant; but the Navy so no because of it not being carrier capable.

  32. I have crystal balls by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    It was modded as a joke, but turning out more and more true:

    http://tech.slashdot.org/comme...

  33. Re:A-10 for the win! by NotDrWho · · Score: 1

    Screw changing anything, just stick with the A-10 Warthog, a proven worthy opponent on the battlefield (and a beautiful, tough aircraft to boot!)

    If the Resistance considers it good enough to fight Skynet, it's good enough for me too!

    --
    SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
  34. Re:Bullshit by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

    The total cost of the F-35 Program is 1 Trillion

    The big dig cost 24.3 billion dollars. We could have used that money to refurbish a heck of a lot of our run down urban infrastructure?

    When you spend money on defense you also have to determine the value of the assets you are protecting. If you reduce their value to zero through neglect then you don't have anything to defend.

  35. Re:A-10 for the win! by perpenso · · Score: 1

    Both the superTucano and the A-10 are irrelevant against a modern IADS, and will be bled by modern handheld SAMs.

    An argument made in the 1970s when the A-10 was being forced upon the Air Force. And yet it turned out to be quite useful over the decades.

    For the record, fighters do even worse against IADS. See WW2, Korea, Vietnam and various Arab/Israeli conflicts. The A-10 was designed with the lessons of these wars in mind. Nap of the earth flight, ruggedness, etc.

    Drones have their utility but they are not a complete replacement. Well maybe for the F-35, given that it will probably be required to operate at higher altitudes and such given the previously mentioned weaknesses of fighters in the CAS role. However for a low, slow highly maneuverable aircraft with a pilot with a head on a swivel and who understands infantry operations and can evaluate what he sees at a glance the drone can come up lacking. The drone is no "magic bullet". We also need a manned aircraft like the A-10 as well.

  36. So much noise about F-35 by steveha · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'm interested in the F-35, and I have been reading about it. There is so much noise that it's hard to sift through all of it. It doesn't help that I'm not any sort of military expert.

    I have read that the F-35 is disaster piled upon disaster, and I have read that the F-35 is "retiring risks" and converting naysayers into believers. I have read that the F-35 is incredibly expensive to operate, and I have read that it was designed for easy maintenance and that it will save big money in the long run on operating costs. I have read that the design of the F-35 was compromised by the need for a lift fan on the B variant, and I have read that the plane would have been just as wide without the B variant because of the design of the enclosed weapons bay. In short, I keep reading things and then reading the exact opposite from some other source.

    Here's what I think I have figured out.

    First, the F-35 had better work because at this point we are stuck with it. The old planes are old and getting more expensive to maintain, and in the long run the F-35 is the only reasonable option (but only if it works... if it doesn't do the mission, it is not a "reasonable option"). The Obama administration shut down the F-22 production lines on the theory that we only need a handful of air superiority fighters, and the money would be better spent on the F-35 (and the Growler, according to Wikipedia). It takes forever to make a new plane, and we really don't have a plan B (or "plane B") ready to go. Also, the USA as a strategy would rather spend more money on planes than lose the lives of pilots; it might be cheaper to buy upgraded older planes, but if the "fifth generation fighter" thing works out, and future battlefields increasingly have anti-air missiles, the F-35 might have lower losses in combat than older plane designs.

    Second, the F-35 may not be horribly expensive. Right now I don't care about sunk costs... cancelling the F-35 won't get the sunk costs back. All that really matters is the "fly-away cost", the cost to build and equip a new plane, and the F-35 doesn't seem completely unreasonable there (it's now under $100 million for the A variant and trending down). One of the remaining risks is whether production can scale up enough to make F-35s as fast as everyone wants them made, but if that scale-up happens costs will fall further. Again, the big question mark is operating expenses and reliability. If the F-35 needs so much maintenance that it can't fly very often, then it was a bad idea. (And by the way, next time the Pentagon wants to make a new weapons system, then I will be very interested in the sunk costs of this one.)

    Third, I'm a cautious believer in the ability of the F-35 to do the missions as long as it's not in the hangar being repaired. It can't win a dogfight with an F-16, but that was never its mission (send an F-22 for that). It basically needs to be able to carry sensors, computers, radios, and missiles, fly long distances, and be a little bit stealthy. I think it can do those things; and once you have the plane, you can upgrade it by improving subsystems. I know, half a century ago, the end of dogfighting was prematurely announced, but with modern missiles and with the stealth features, I think the F-35 will be able to defend itself.

    Fourth, I'm not completely certain that the F-35 will be useless for close-air support. The fans of the F-35 claim that the A-10 can't be used effectively against people with any anti-air missiles including shoulder-fired ones; that much of the time in recent years, the A-10 was required to operate from high altitude to avoid being shot down by missiles. The F-35 is not going to fly low and slow over a battlefield and shoot things with a gun, but it could fly past and fire off precision guided munitions, which should work. One thing is for sure: the alleged upcoming test between A-10 and F-35 for close-air support will include simulated anti-air missiles, because if it didn't the A-10 would totally win.

    Fifth, I

    --
    lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
    1. Re:So much noise about F-35 by steveha · · Score: 1

      Good work, Mr $hill. At least you can write some prose.

      Wow, for whom am I shilling? Nobody has paid me yet, so I must be doing it wrong. :-(

      --
      lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
    2. Re:So much noise about F-35 by JumboMessiah · · Score: 1

      The reason is that most don't understand how the procurement process works nor do they understand that actual capabilities of the F-35. They can't envision what the superior SAR capability of the APG-81 brings (not to mention the LPI AA modes), nor how DAS plus the JHMCS makes the situational awareness capabilities of the aircraft magnitudes beyond anything currently flying. They also don't understand that an F-35 carries more fuel than a F-16 and F-15 combined. It has the legs to go where others can't and does it with a clean stealthy airframe. It is a game changing aircraft, just ask the Israeli's why they can't wait to get their hands on it.

    3. Re:So much noise about F-35 by JumboMessiah · · Score: 1

      The problem is that they are not that cheap, nor are they absolutely current technology wise.

      The F-35 will out range the F-14 and F-16. The F-15E will class it but only with external tanks (CFT + EFT). F-35's radar is superior to all examples listed. It has all aspect DAS for situational awareness. The list goes on...

      And, when full rate production is 100% in 2019, you can have them for $75 million per copy (today's dollars). By comparison you can get an F-15 for about $85 million and an F-16 for about $50 million. Both are still in production, F-16s out of Fort Worth, TX and F-15s out of St. Louis, MO.

    4. Re:So much noise about F-35 by guises · · Score: 1

      First, the F-35 had better work because at this point we are stuck with it.

      This isn't exactly true. It's not going to happen, but if we needed to we could just buy a bunch of Eurofighters or Rafales. They're perfectly capable planes and we'd have no trouble buying them for a lot less money than the F-35. But, of course, that would never happen for reasons.

    5. Re:So much noise about F-35 by JumboMessiah · · Score: 1

      Unlike you, I research a topic before I comment on it. How is not seeing further or more clearly not improve situational awareness? How is having a secure datalink not improve situational awareness? The APG-81 is so good that the Dutch recently stated that a single F-35 improves the picture not only for itself, but for the flight of F-16s it was accompanying.

      And then you go an talk about IESA, which leads me to believe you have no informed opinion. Hint, it's AESA. E-2s won't be going downtown with your strike package, F-35s will. The hi-lo-hi range of an F-16 with a typical combat load is 400nmi, that extends to almost 700nmi for the F-35. Which is why you never see an F-16 without a pair of 370gal EFTs. The F-35s best them with all internal stores. Another 'hour' of flight time gets you to places the 4th gen fighters can't. Pure and simple. Everyone is re-evaluating their CONOPS plans for when the F-35 arrives in numbers.

    6. Re:So much noise about F-35 by steveha · · Score: 1

      Thank you, whoever you are. I wrote my whole long post because I was hoping that a more-informed person would write a follow-up post and I would learn something.

      I had read that the Osprey is a success. I was surprised to read your comments. Part of making the "short-deck carrier" idea work, the marines are going to try using Ospreys for mid-air refuelling. Do you have any opinions on how well that would work?

      http://news.usni.org/2015/07/29/davis-v-22-aerial-refueling-system-should-be-ready-for-early-f-35-operations-despite-1-year-delay#more-14106

      I am not any kind of expert on military stuff, so I could be completely wrong, but isn't the vertical landing capability of an F-35B a lot better for emergency recovery than normal carrier operations? With normal carrier operations, you absolutely have to get each plane off the deck before another plane can land; but with the vertical landing, in a pinch you should be able to land several planes in rapid succession (biggest worry is whether they melt the deck).

      --
      lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
    7. Re:So much noise about F-35 by steveha · · Score: 1

      Being stuck with it "because it was expensive" is just a horrible reason to stick with it.

      No, we aren't stuck with the F-35 because it cost so much, we are stuck with the F-35 because the old planes are old and we are having increasing trouble and expense to keep them flying. And, if the F-35 fans are right, the battlefields of the future will increasingly have anti-air missiles, and we will want our pilots flying stealthy planes if possible.

      So we are stuck with the F-35 because we need a new plane, and it's the only new plane we have available. The Pentagon put all the eggs into one basket. Don't blame me for saying there's only one basket.

      --
      lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
  37. Re:Bullshit by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

    It is when you equip it with cruise missiles and JDAMs...

    --
    Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
  38. Re:Bullshit by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

    The F35 isn't a money pit. It's a good investment.

    "good" is relative, It doesn't mean "best". A more prudent investment would be one in our own infrastructure. With a trillion dollars we could have a "big dig" type infrastructure improvement in every american city.

  39. Re:Bullshit by FranTaylor · · Score: 2

    The plane is coming in under cost.

    1997 projected cost per plane: $113 million (in 2015 dollars)
    2015 projected cost per plane: $178 million

    sure you can bring it under cost if you keep moving the goalposts

  40. Re:I may have missed it but by NatasRevol · · Score: 2

    I don't think those things invalidate my question.

    Folding wings are for storage.

    tailhook is for L, not TO.

    --
    There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
  41. Re:Bullshit by Coren22 · · Score: 1

    That doesn't even include the B-52, B-1, B-2 and other bombers that will be procured in the future.

    Good luck buying any of those in the future.

    B-52 stopped being produced in 62
    B-1 in 88
    B-2 in 2000

    --
    APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
  42. STILL WRONG! by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

    The A-29 is in now way "inspired: by WWII in anyway, shape, or form.
    In WWII you did not have COIN aircraft at all. The ground attack aircraft used by the US where in large part fighters the USAC found that single engine attack aircraft were not as flexible as fighters like the P-47. 51, and 38. The navy did have the SDB, TBM, but for close support the F4F, F6F, and F4U where king.
    The only thing WWII about the A-29 is that it has a prop. Guess what lots of airplanes still use props. Most WWII aircraft where taildraggers, "with a few exceptions" while the A-29 uses tricycle gear. All combat aircraft in WWII used piston engines while the A-29 uses a turboprop!
    Frankly the whole story is bollocks from start to finish but the headline is still pure manure.

    --
    See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
  43. Re:Bullshit by jgtg32a · · Score: 1

    See you admitted that it costs 1 TRILLION dollars.

  44. Re:I may have missed it but by belthize · · Score: 4, Funny

    Not sure if it supported vertical take off but it does support vertical landing.

  45. Re:Bullshit by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

    The plane is coming in under cost.

    Oh, Really?

    The plane is also supposed to be having these various problems you mention because it is still in testing.

    Oops. You're not supposed to be doing that anymore.

    The plane is also on schedule

    Right. Which schedule? The one they made last week?

     

    ... and the schedule wouldn't really matter anyway since no other country is fielding fifth generation fighters in significant numbers and we already have one that is fully operational (F-22).

    Good. So we're spending trillions of dollars on technology we don't need. An excellent, fiscally responsible approach to defense spending.

    For a troll, you're not so smart. Use arguments that are harder to pick apart.

    --
    Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  46. You misrepresent the F-111 by perpenso · · Score: 1

    You seem to be making the common mistake that an "F" designation necessarily means the aircraft is a fighter designed to mix it up with other fighters. That is not true. Sometimes tactical bombers get the "F" designation, F-111 and F-117 for example. The F-111 was designed for deep strikes behind enemy lines behind a defensive line of fighters and surface to air missiles. The idea was that extreme low altitude flight, computer assisted nap of the earth, would allow the F-111 to avoid SAM radar; and that high speed at these altitudes would help to avoid fighters which were generally less capable at low altitudes. That was the "intent" of the F-111, it was not an F-4 replacement.

    Now the F-111 may have also had some fighter roles in mind, but such were more like intercepting Soviet bombers coming south from the north pole. Or in the Navy's version of the scenario intercepting Soviet bombers heading towards a carrier. Note quite a fighter-on-fighter scenarios.

    1. Re:You misrepresent the F-111 by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 1

      Except you would be wrong. The Air Force wanted an aircraft that could serve as a fighter/bomber, and the Navy wanted a fighter/interceptor to defend Carrier task forces against Russian bomber/cruise missile attack swarms. McNamara made them combine their requirements into the "Tactical Fighter Experimental" (TFX) program, and it was a "fighter" in that it was intended to use missiles at range to shoot down enemy aircraft, in an era where dogfighting was considered to be obsolete. Of course, the Navy wound up deciding that it didn't meet their requirements, and cancelled their version of it. (They later went back to the drawing board and came up with the F-14)

      Meanwhile, the Air Force would use it mostly as a tactical bomber, and also made an adapted version to use as a strategic bomber, and it did a pretty decent job of those - but it could have done much better had it been designed to do just that rather than trying to be everything to everyone.

      And I can only imagine what would have happened had the Marines demanded it be SVTOL capable, too.

    2. Re:You misrepresent the F-111 by perpenso · · Score: 1

      Except you would be wrong. The Air Force wanted an aircraft that could serve as a fighter/bomber, and the Navy wanted a fighter/interceptor to defend Carrier task forces against Russian bomber/cruise missile attack swarms. McNamara made them combine their requirements into the "Tactical Fighter Experimental" (TFX) program, and it was a "fighter" in that it was intended to use missiles at range to shoot down enemy aircraft, in an era where dogfighting was considered to be obsolete.

      No. The Air Force's primary interest was that of a bomber, and the Navy that of an interceptor. Fighter was a very secondary thing. Much like the F-117 can mount sidewinders for air-to-air, or an A-10 for that matter too. Its more a self defense thing. That does not make an aircraft a "fighter". Note the distinction between "fighter" and "interceptor", the later has more to do with taking out big slowly maneuvering bombers. The F-111 was actually envisioned as an answer to both sides of this traditional "interceptor" mission. For the Navy it attacked the bombers. For the Air Force it replaced the big low maneuverability bombers at altitude with small fast terrain hugging bombers, aircraft far more likely to find gaps in Soviet air defenses.

      The F-111 was never intended to be a front line fighter like the F-4. And it was the F-4 in that era that was intended to be a front line fighter that shoots down enemy fighters at range with missiles. Early F-4 versions did not include guns.

      Meanwhile, the Air Force would use it mostly as a tactical bomber, and also made an adapted version to use as a strategic bomber, and it did a pretty decent job of those - but it could have done much better had it been designed to do just that rather than trying to be everything to everyone.

      That was the role the Air Force had always been working towards. And not everything, not a "fighter", just a bomber and and "interceptor". Again an "interceptor" is not a "fighter", different prey so to speak, primarily targeting bombers and such.

      And I can only imagine what would have happened had the Marines demanded it be SVTOL capable, too.

      To be clear I am not in favor of multi-mission aircraft. I prefer the 1970s renegade sort of approach that led to the single purpose designs of the F-16 and A-10. That is not to say there isn't more opportunity for common components. We probably could have more standardization and commonality with respect to avionics, maybe more aircraft sharing engines.

      STOVL would probably have to be its own single purpose design, its hard to imagine vertical landing being a general purpose win over ruggedness. Or maybe it would be a better idea to adapt amphibious assault ships for STOL (no vertical). No need for the complex arresting gear of a carrier that supports many aircraft types. Maybe something simpler for a single type of aircraft, whatever STOL the Marines are operating. I understand OV-10 have been launched and recovered by assault ships but something closer to an A-10 would be needing more runway so arresting gear of some sort would be necessary.

    3. Re:You misrepresent the F-111 by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 1

      For one, I'm not saying it made sense - just that it's what the Air Force calls its medium range tactical strike aircraft. They call them fighter-bombers, and insist on putting an "F" designation on. By all rights it should probably have had an "A" designation, or at least F/A (since "B" is for strategic bombers - and they did later make an FB-111 variant for that role). The air force was looking for an aircraft that could replace the F-105 (which was likewise an attack aircraft, not a 'fighter'), and the Pentagon decided that it could be combined with the Navy's interceptor requirement. Neither that plane, nor the F-111, were ever primarily "fighters" in anything but name and hand-waved capability, certainly.

      My point still stands though, that both the Air Force and the Navy would have been better off with planes tailored specifically to their needs, rather than being forced to compromise on those requirements.

  47. There are VTOL turboprop fighters by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    And the F-35 is a royal piece of "shite".

    For the price of one F-35, you can get 10-20 better planes, with better fuel profiles, which extend your operational range.

    Adapt. The world's not waiting for you.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    1. Re:There are VTOL turboprop fighters by msimm · · Score: 1

      Ya...but look at them. F-35 looks like pure cutting edge bad-ass when compaired to the A-29. If you've got group of military personnel trying to make spending decisions and you can provide **any** reasonable argument to swing the decision towards the F-35... That thing just screams shock and awe. Meanwhile our less priveledged neighbors can afford (and produce) the A-29 Super Tucano.

      --
      Quack, quack.
  48. Re:Ask Brazil a little help by umghhh · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I am old enough to recall commie BS first hand (first ear?). I live in the west for quite some years now and frankly the only difference between Western media BS and the real commie BS from the old days is that in the West you can mostly chose BS that fits your world view with exception of these few moments where all go ballistic on something and present united BS, the way commies did. Quite frankly I listen to the news with disgust these days - too much Putin and asylum seekers (or whatever let the journalists to get off) pr0n. Too bad all these real free pr0n sites are so boring.

  49. Re:vertical landing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Is that with the aircraft intact or is it an expensive crater creator?

    A pilot once told me: "a good landing is one you walk away from; a great landing is one where the aircraft is reusable"

  50. If the Air Force Won't Fly Them by SwashbucklingCowboy · · Score: 1

    Then the Army should tell the Air Force to take a hike and fly them itself.

    1. Re:If the Air Force Won't Fly Them by Deadstick · · Score: 1

      They would love to...but the AF's friends in Congress make damn sure they aren't allowed to.

  51. Re:vertical landing by Deadstick · · Score: 2

    That's a remark you generally hear from people who fly other people's airplanes.

  52. A10? by Guspaz · · Score: 1

    sips gas, and can go anywhere

    I don't really understand this statement: it has a much smaller range than the F-35 (by every measurement, even combat range), and is less than a third as fast. It has far more loiter time, but the F-35 isn't intended for that role.

    I think the F-35 is a joke, mind you, and should never have been built (and I still hope that we don't end up buying any in Canada) but I'm not sure why the A-29 would be considered in any way a replacement. It sounds more like it's a replacement for the A10, and it's not clear to me how it's better than the A10.

    1. Re:A10? by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 1

      But loiter time is what you need for a CAS aircraft, and yet they keep telling us that the F-35 will be covering that role, replacing the A-10.

    2. Re:A10? by TheDarkMaster · · Score: 1

      Not better, cheaper when your mission do not envolve the need of a very big cannon. And everyone forgets that the Super Tucano is an acrobat, it can easily dodge enemy fire and SAMs if having a good pilot.

      --
      Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
  53. Re:vertical landing by belthize · · Score: 2

    What a remarkably apropos user name.

  54. Re:A-10 for the win! by rickb928 · · Score: 1

    There are effective countermeasures against MANPADs. Some of the 70s-era stuff still works.

    I'm always disappointed when straight-up strobe blinders aren't deployed, but I know the collateral damage is a problem. At least the make the MANPAD incorporate some sort of sensing and targeting assistance, which can then be challenged with always-on IR jamming.

    But, admittedly, the standard ECM paradigm against all surface launches was to deny the targeting long enough to exit the area, or illuminate the launch and let something destroy it. With fast movers this is measured in seconds. LAS missions measure this in multiple minutes, and have a habit of coming back for more. It is a tough environment. The A-10 has the disadvantage of jet exhaust, the A-29 has a much lower IR signature. But A-10s didn't fall out of the sky with SA-7s stuck in them.

    How about the Army buys the A-10- from the Air Force? The Marines and Navy IWO can buy A-29s. The F-35 can then be delayed another 10 years, to great benefit.

    --
    deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
  55. Re:I may have missed it but by publiclurker · · Score: 1

    But only once.

  56. A run for its money? by DrXym · · Score: 1

    The F-35 is about 3x as fast, has 2x the range, more hardpoints, more carry capacity and considerably more stealthy. Doubtless this other aircraft is far more suitable for certain support roles (the vids say low intensity environments) and a LOT cheaper but I doubt that there is much intersection with the sorts of roles the F-35 is envisaged for.

    1. Re:A run for its money? by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 1

      You're missing the most important thing - for Combat Air Support, speed is not your friend.

      Loiter time is the most important thing - i.e., how long you can stay at the target zone providing support. Ask any grunt (infantry or other combat arms MOS, in either the Army or the Marines) which they'd rather have coming to help - a fast strike that drops a few bombs at a specific target, and maybe 1 or 2 strafing runs, and then flies home, OR, a plane that's capable of sticking around for an hour or more.

      You don't need speed to get to the battle spot if you're already out there - worse, if you're flying high and fast, you're more likely to hit the wrong spot, or even worse, drop ordnance on friendlies.

    2. Re:A run for its money? by TheDarkMaster · · Score: 1

      Place a F35 on a CAS mission and your F35 will return as metal confetti.

      --
      Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
    3. Re:A run for its money? by DrXym · · Score: 1

      It's not an either / or thing. The US military would make liberal use of drones and helicopters for their ability to loiter. An aircraft like an F-35 would be called in to take out larger targets like a building or bridge. Second, the Super Tucano is described by its own manufacturers as suitable for low intensity operations. It's not fulfilling the same role as an F-35 and it would likely be useless in a high intensity battle where it's liable to be shot down.

  57. For Afghanistan, Not USAF by SpeedRacer · · Score: 1

    The A-29 has been selected by the USAF for use by the Afghanistan military. From the actual article (http://www.builtforthemission.com/jax/bftm.nsf?Open):

    "As the aircraft selected for the LAS program, the A-29 Super Tucano will be used to provide light air support, reconnaissance and training capabilities to the Afghanistan military."

    The Afghanistan military has a very specific set of needs. They need an aircraft for a very specific ground support mission, and they need an inexpensive aircraft, but to acquire and to maintain. The F-35 does not fit those criteria. They do not need a multi-role, multi-service fighter that incorporates stealth capability or supersonic performance. The title of the post is "click-bait." There was never any chance for the F-35 to be selected for this particular mission.

  58. Re:Bullshit by tnk1 · · Score: 1

    I dislike the "we could use this to fix our infrastructure" argument.

    I would be closer to being rich if I got your salary in addition to my own. My guess is that our respective employers have a reason for paying you for what you do, and not paying me double for doing more of what I do.

    We should spend money on infrastructure, but we need to be careful here and understand that there is a mission that needs to be completed.

    My problem with the F-35 isn't that I don't believe in the mission, it's that the F-35 costs too much to not fulfill its mission parameters. I don't have a problem with a 1 trillion dollar fighter if we need one and it does what it needs to do.

    If there is waste in that program, it needs to be dealt with, but we're going to need a fifth generation strike aircraft from somewhere. I like the A-10, but it does have its disadvantages as well. It is meant for busting Soviet tanks in Central Europe, and that makes it superlative at ground support, but it is extremely specialized at that. We either choose a new plane or keep the old one, but we can't do both. And my vote is for the new one, as long as it works.

    Let's not get caught by history again. Yeah, we're fighting bush wars now. This isn't the end of history. It is very possible for us to fight a modern war against top level opponents in the future. China is working hard to become that kind of threat. They're behind, but they won't always be, especially if we keep looking back.

  59. But bombs have cameras now. by dsmatthews9379 · · Score: 1

    It is a stupid story based on previous generation tech. motivated by the usual f-35 hate which is mostly political and counter factual. The year is 2015 and bombs have an accuracy of a meter or less and can contain cameras with real-time feeds that allow for premature detonation or re-targeting should the target move or turn out to be friendly, or civilians are spotted moving toward the target. The entire premise of the story is false.

    1. Re:But bombs have cameras now. by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

      Realize that there are cases where a missile or bomb isn't good because it also hurts your own troops. In those cases the A-10 with the GAU-8 is the only alternative.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
  60. Re:A-10 for the win! by Socguy · · Score: 1

    You would think that in this day and age, it would be better to load up an A-10 with high tech counter measures to incoming missiles. If the military could shrink down some of the lasers they're testing to incapacitate such threats, some of these older designs could become even more valuable.

  61. Re:I may have missed it but by JeffOwl · · Score: 1

    You know how I know you have no idea what you're talking about?

  62. Re:I may have missed it but by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

    You know how I know you have no idea what you're talking about?

    You mean this?

    https://medium.com/war-is-bori...

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  63. Re: vertical landing by kellymcdonald78 · · Score: 2

    I prefer the term lithobraking you insensitive clod

  64. Why are we propagating propaganda? by wakeboarder · · Score: 1

    Isn't this article an avenue for the defense contractor to reach out to the public and whine that they didn't get their contract? I get it, turbo props are retro and they still work and they are cheap. But if you enter the political realm of defense contracting you'll be knee deep in sewage. It isn't about what works all the time, its about scratching other peoples backs and you'd better be able to make your contract look Tony Stark cool if you want to get it, like the F-35

    1. Re:Why are we propagating propaganda? by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

      What the Tucano do is more of a supplement to the A-10 on the low-end side when there's less need for armament but more use for a relatively slow-moving aircraft that can linger in an area a long time. An almost ideal plane when it comes to hunting smugglers, border-jumpers and lightly armed teams on the ground.

      The A-10 is what you use when you want a versatile craft supporting your ground troops against anything that can pop-up there including tanks.

      The F-35 - more a fighter that you can add some strike capability to in the form of missiles, but missiles are sometimes not good for supporting your ground troops because the risk of also taking out your own people - but where the GAU-8 of the A-10 is doing the work fine.

      From my perspective there's the situation where these craft supplement each other rather than substitute.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    2. Re:Why are we propagating propaganda? by wakeboarder · · Score: 1

      If its for hunting people on the ground, is a turbo prop 'sneaky'? Just bomb them from a few miles up. We have bombs that track ground based laser sights

    3. Re:Why are we propagating propaganda? by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

      Well - you are the hunter, but the collectors are on the ground. In the case of smugglers and others then you need to have a positive confirmation what they are before you kill them. The persons you spot may have a legal reason to be where they are.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
  65. Re:A-10 for the win! by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

    In the 1970s you could take a thousand pilots, throw them at the enemy, and hope you got back half of them. You can't do that anymore.

  66. Re: A-10 for the win! by crankyspice · · Score: 1

    The Army (generally) cannot operate *armed* fixed wing aircraft. All those exemplars are cargo, recon, or utility aircraft. http://www.afhso.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-100525-080.pdf

    --
    geek. lawyer.
  67. WWII-era inspired plane... sheeze... by Lisandro · · Score: 1

    The A-29 is a thoroughly modern, well equipped aircraft which just happens to use a prop. I know one Brazilian airforce pilot who flies it and has nothing but praise for the plane.

    After the dumb decision of shelving the A-10 in favor of the F-35 the USAF would do good in considering the Super Tucano as a COIN/CAS alternative. Hell, at $4 millon a pop you can even write them off as minor losses on the F-35 program

  68. Re:Need a post 9/11 view by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

    Ha, right. The American public cares very much about losing people. September 11th provided an idealogical reason to go to war, but the US public still expects the savages to be killed with negligible American casualties. An actual cheap-and-plentiful war would involve losses orders of magnitude above what the US has experienced since WWII.

    Thus, drones, cruise missiles, air strikes, and a lot of force multiplying technology.

  69. Re:A-10 for the win! by perpenso · · Score: 1

    In the 1970s you could take a thousand pilots, throw them at the enemy, and hope you got back half of them. You can't do that anymore.

    No. A small fraction of such casualties over a much longer timeframe forced the end to US involvement in Vietnam. You didn't naively think it was hippies protesting in the streets that ended it did you? It was casualties and the resulting loss of faith by mainstream America that did it in the late 1960s.

  70. Re:I may have missed it but by SomeoneFromBelgium · · Score: 1

    Nope. Navy has aircraft carriers with catapults and arrest kables. They don't need STOVL. Marine core does to replace their version of the Harrier. This is currently only in use by the marine core meaning that the Navy currently has no STOVL capabililty.

  71. Re:I may have missed it but by JeffOwl · · Score: 2

    I hope you don't get all your info from hit pieces written by folks whose primary agenda is to drive clicks. Go talk to some Marines. They don't like the Harrier, it's slow, it's vulnerable, it has no legs, can't carry any kind of reasonable payload, and has a terrible safety record. Actually ask a Marine pilot, especially one who has flown both, which they would take into battle today given a choice. I bet you would get a similar answer to the one I got which was "F-35 any day of the week." You managed to pick the one airplane being replace by F-35 which is indisputably worse. Even without stealth and sensors the F-35 is vastly superior to the Harrier. You add stealth and sensors into the mix and the Harrier looks like the relic from the 1960s that it is. You want to have an actual debate on the merits? Talk about the F-18 C/D that is being used by the Marines. I'm not saying the F-18 wins, but I'm saying at least there would be a debate.

  72. Re:I may have missed it but by JeffOwl · · Score: 1

    By the way, nothing in the article, as critical of the F-35 as it is, says that the Harrier is superior. It may say that about other jets, but not the Harrier.

  73. Air Force fig leaf by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    How about this? If it's CAS, but unmanned, then the Army can have it; manned fixed-wing aircraft stay with the Air Force. Would that soothe Top Gun's fragile ego?

    I think a lot of this self-destructive behavior by the Air Force is due to them knowing the days of manned combat aircraft is rapidly coming to a close and they're panicking (kinda like the demographically-doomed white right-wing).

  74. The software generation by John+Bayko · · Score: 1

    The big advance of the F-35 isn't the physical capabilities. Jet fighters have reached the limits of what humans inside can endure a while ago. It's basically a refinement to (theoretically) lower costs and maintenance, and expand range.

    The big thing is the software, which is supposed to give the pilots an unmatched situational awareness, and ability to respond. Metaphorically it's supposed to be like being surrounded by a mob wearing masks with tiny eye slits looking around for other people around them, while you can just see them all. Probably not actually like that, but that's the idea.

    to give a historical example of how this is important, you can compare the MIG-29 to something like an F-16 or F-18. The MIG is physically superior in some ways, but was designed for "dumb" pilots to follow real-time orders from ground based radar and controllers, so the pilots can't get a good idea of what's around them. When Germany reunified, they had plenty of MIG 29s in the air force, but got rid of them for this reason - they just crippled the pilots too much, and upgrading the avionics would have cost more than new planes (the Eurofighter Typhoon, which has similarly advanced software).

    I think starting with the current batch of planes, you're not going to see vastly improved physical capabilities, so they'll seem boring, in the same way that all modern mobile phones look like boring, featureless rectangles.

  75. Re:I may have missed it but by kenwd0elq · · Score: 2

    I have a number of devices that contain electric motors. There's a vacuum cleaner, a blender, a mixer... It would probably be possible to create a "multi-purpose household appliance" that would do every possible task with just one electric motor.

    But the fact is that a device that does several different tasks does NONE of them well. My carpet shampooer isn't a vacuum cleaner, and there is no "multi-mission floor care device" that is both a carpet shampooer and a vacuum cleaner, even when they are superficially similar.

    A USAF air-superiority fighter isn't going to do a great job as a ground attack aircraft. A ground attack aircraft isn't going to be a great interceptor. Hell, there aren't even any good fighter-interceptors. And the F-35 apparently sucks at ALL of these jobs.

    The notion of "One Aircraft To Rule Them All" is an utter fantasy.

  76. Ground Attack - Does it Replace the Warthog by gpronger · · Score: 1

    My question would be is it superior to the Warthog when you're talking ground attack, that's the benchmark. The F-35 can't match the Warthog either.

  77. A-29? Just keep and update the A-10 by PeterHolland765 · · Score: 1

    Whats the point of an A-29? It might have some good air to ground capabilities but it totally inferior to the A-10, which can take hits and survive has a bigger gun and carries more ordnance. The A-10 can also fly slow and fly from unpaved runways. The F-35 is great as a super fighter with secondary bombing capabilities (like the F-16). As a fighter outperformed only by the F-22. But its to vulnerable for close air support. Any unarmored aircraft is vulnerable in the close air support role. That goes for both F-35 and A-29. Although losing an F-35 is a lot more money. I don't see any use fore A-29. Simply get more A-10's back into service and upgrade them (or build new ones).