Nintendo Joins Khronos Group

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Posted by samzenpus on Tuesday September 22, 2015 @11:26AM from the welcome-to-the-club dept.

jones_supa writes: Gamasutra reports that Nintendo has quietly joined Khronos Group, the consortium managing the OpenGL and Vulkan graphics APIs. The news was brought to Gamasutra's attention by a NeoGaf post, which notes that Nintendo's name was added to the list of Khronos Group contributing members earlier this month. As a Khronos Group contributor Nintendo has full voting rights and is empowered to participate in the group's API development, but it doesn't have a seat on the Khronos Group board and can't participate in the final ratification process of new API specifications.

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Buh-bye DX12 by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-22 11:31 · Score: 0

Well, that places all of the major players on the side of Vulkan. So long DX12 and Microsoft lock-in.
1. Re:Buh-bye DX12 by sexconker · 2015-09-22 11:47 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  If by "major players" you're excluding all the AA publishers and dev houses, MS, and nVidia, sure. These players are all about DX.
  Being part of the group doesn't mean you want it to succeed, it means you need to know what's going on and to have your input to be heard in the event that it does.
  I for one would love DX12 (and Windows 10) to flop, or at least for OpenGL Whatever They Call It Now to succeed as a viable alternative, but I'm not so naive as to believe it will happen.
2. Re:Buh-bye DX12 by buckfeta2014 · 2015-09-22 11:54 · Score: 2
  
  What AA publishers, everyone is closing up shop.
  
  --
  Buck Feta. You know what to do.
3. Re:Buh-bye DX12 by Trogre · 2015-09-22 11:57 · Score: 1
  
  Pretty sure EA is still AA
  
  --
  "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
4. Re:Buh-bye DX12 by sexconker · 2015-09-22 12:22 · Score: 2
  
  Supporting it doesn't mean they want it to succeed.
  The engine developers need to support everything and they don't much care what wins.
  MS obviously wants DX12 to win, as does nVidia because they're neck deep in DX "optimization" programs with devs (to the detriment of performance on AMD hardware).
  Valve wants DX to fail because they want to make sure the MS Store never takes off, because they want to remain the dominant storefront for PC games so they can keep taking 30% for hosting downloads.
  No one else gives a shit about who wins, they just give a shit about having to support it and thus want to be able to vote on its development track and want to know what changes are coming ahead of time. They're not playing the same fanboy game you are, and you really shouldn't pin your hopes on them based on their membership in a working group.
5. Re:Buh-bye DX12 by Dutch+Gun · 2015-09-22 12:42 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  Well, that places all of the major players on the side of Vulkan. So long DX12 and Microsoft lock-in.
  Nintendo has historically used a customized version of OpenGL for their APIs, as has Sony. So, no one should be surprised to see them take part in this development effort, because these are hardware manufacturers developing their own platforms.
  However, every major cross-platform developer or publisher was ALSO likely involved in or closely following the development of DirectX 12. That is, cross-platform developer don't "pick a side" in API wars. These developers have already structured their engine to be largely platform independent, including the renderer. My own little game engine supports DX9, DX11 and OpenGL 4.3. While it's not trivial to do, it's not terribly difficult either, as there are a lot of fundamental similarities between those APIs.
  I'm betting that DX12 and Khronos will have many similarities as well. Future game engines will be based on the intersection of features between these two APIs, just like what has happened with previous versions. As far as I've heard, they're both largely rewrites, with similar goals: minimal driver interference, low level APIs used to communicate efficiently communicate with modern shader-based hardware. As such, it stands to reason that Khronos will use similar approaches to accessing the same hardware that DX12 needs to access.
  It doesn't look like Windows 10 will flop - Steam HW survey shows it as a very rapidly growing market share of OSes - already at 17%. According to Steam, Windows in total is just under 96%, OS X at a bit over 3%, and Linux is under 1%. Note that these are gaming machines, not general purpose machines, but that's relevant for this discussion.
  I really wish OS X and Linux had more inroads in the desktop. I really, really do, but it's a fantasy at this point to think that a new graphics API will somehow break Microsoft's death grip on the desktop.
  
  --
  Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
6. Re:Buh-bye DX12 by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-22 13:05 · Score: 1
  
  If the engine supports it, then the games will support it.
  Nvidia doesn't give a shit about DX, they only care about what is being used by others. Vulkan will succeed because it will simplify cross platform and Nvidia will be right there to benefit from it.
  Valve is so far ahead of everyone when it comes to game distribution that there is little chance Microsoft will ever pose a threat.
  Since you are a Microsoft fanboy, I'm not surprised that you are blind to the coming sea change.
7. Re:Buh-bye DX12 by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-22 13:36 · Score: 0
  
  Sorry but game developers and nvidia's own driver engineers disagree with you.
8. Re:Buh-bye DX12 by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-22 14:35 · Score: 0
  
  I still dont know why the desktop is and ever was a battle ground, Linux / Android has won the Mobile space. M$ can take the hit when the desktop goes, the lack luster sales of new PC hardware vs mobile ( tablet etc etc ) is telling.
9. Re:Buh-bye DX12 by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-22 14:54 · Score: 1
  
  EA was downgraded to AA- (or worse) a long time ago.
10. Re:Buh-bye DX12 by phantomfive · 2015-09-22 15:16 · Score: 1
  
  I still dont know why the desktop is and ever was a battle ground,
  Because people buy desktop computers. That's the main reason.
  
  --
  "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
11. Re:Buh-bye DX12 by Dutch+Gun · 2015-09-22 16:27 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  I still dont know why the desktop is and ever was a battle ground, Linux / Android has won the Mobile space. M$ can take the hit when the desktop goes, the lack luster sales of new PC hardware vs mobile ( tablet etc etc ) is telling.
  More than simple sales, the PC is where games (and in fact nearly ALL content) is actually created. Phones and tablets are fine for consuming content, but horrible for *creating* content. It's an open platform where people can generally do whatever they want with their hardware, and it's the most powerful computing device a consumer can generally purchase.
  Smartphones and tablets are relatively new devices. As soon as the market is saturated and the technology matures, sales will drop off sharply, and you'll hear pundits moaning about the "demise" of those platforms as well. In fact, that's already happening with tablets, and I predict you'll start seeing the same thing with smartphones in another four or five years, maybe even sooner. Fewer and fewer people will be willing to purchase new phones every year or two in perpetuity.
  Phones and tablets are much better consumer-level devices than PCs ever were. PCs are just moving into a new and arguably better niche as the most powerful line of computers for people who need or want to do more than a mobile device allows. The reason PC sales have dropped off considerably is that a) the worldwide market has been largely saturated, and b) computers have ridiculously powerful hardware for what most of them are required to do, so they don't need to be replaced nearly as often as they used to be.
  
  --
  Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
12. Re:Buh-bye DX12 by DigiShaman · 2015-09-22 16:35 · Score: 1
  
  Microsoft should just release a Windows 10 Gaming edition for free and be done with it. For everything else, I've got a Windows 7 home/business PC and a MacBook Pro. I prefer to keep my gaming rig stuff separate.
  
  --
  Life is not for the lazy.
13. Re:Buh-bye DX12 by UnknownSoldier · 2015-09-22 16:57 · Score: 2
  
  > Nintendo has historically used a customized version of OpenGL for their APIs, as has Sony
  Please stop spreading that mis-information.
  I shipped a couple Wii games and wrote an OpenGL wrapper. Nintendo's GX rendering library definitely was heavily OpenGL _inspired_ but it was not OpenGL.
  I've also shipped PSX and PS2 games. At that same Wii job we also had an OpenGL wrapper for the PS2. Sony's sce*() calls for the Sony's PSX and PS2 was never OpenGL inspired.
14. Re:Buh-bye DX12 by Dutch+Gun · 2015-09-22 18:16 · Score: 1
  
  I shipped PS2, PS3, Gamecube, Xbox, and Xbox 360 titles, but I've been out of consoles after that (PC only for quite a few years), so I'll defer to your knowledge on current-gen APIs. The PS2 was certainly not very similar to OpenGL (very low-level stuff), but I remember the PS3's libgcm being somewhat similar to earlier OpenGL versions, although the SPUs made it much more challenging, and the focus on the command buffer was a bit different. Still, you could more or less substitute many of the basic function calls, and terminology was certainly closer to OpenGL than DirectX. The Gamecube was much more similar to OpenGL than Sony's libraries from what I recall, and much easier to use.
  I suppose it's still a bit of a misnomer, because console APIs have always allowed much more direct access to hardware, since there's less of a need for layers of abstraction (as the underlying hardware doesn't really change). As such, I think you're correct in that "inspired by OpenGL" is probably more accurate than "customized OpenGL", and probably much more appropriate in the case of Nintendo's consoles. So, correction noted.
  
  --
  Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
15. Re:Buh-bye DX12 by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-22 18:33 · Score: 1
  
  >Valve is so far ahead of everyone when it comes to game distribution that there is little chance Microsoft will ever pose a threat.
  Heard it before. You are wrong. Microsoft's app store, TPM, UEFI secure boot etc will kill Steam (or at least put Valve on a short Microsoft leash) once the final piece of the puzzle drops: no sideloading on Windows . Fortunately Valve isn't stupid and it knows this.
16. Re:Buh-bye DX12 by Kjella · 2015-09-22 18:47 · Score: 1
  
  Phones and tablets are much better consumer-level devices than PCs ever were. PCs are just moving into a new and arguably better niche as the most powerful line of computers for people who need or want to do more than a mobile device allows. The reason PC sales have dropped off considerably is that a) the worldwide market has been largely saturated, and b) computers have ridiculously powerful hardware for what most of them are required to do, so they don't need to be replaced nearly as often as they used to be.
  The PC market is ridiculously unsaturated compared to smart phones, outside first world countries it's the only computing device a few billion people have. And if it wasn't for the completely different hardware (ARM vs x86) and software (Android/iOS vs Win/Mac/non-Android Linux) and user paradigm (touch vs keyboard+mouse), I suspect many of them could be replaced by a small dock with HDMI+USB+Bluetooth headset in case somebody calls you. A quad core ARM at GHz speeds with >1GB RAM is at least as powerful as a 2000s PC or whenever they became more than powerful enough for general productivity tasks. You already have the compute sticks approaching the form factor, all it takes is someone putting it together.
  
  --
  Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
17. Re:Buh-bye DX12 by 91degrees · 2015-09-22 19:37 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Game devs don't really care. They'll use the API they have.
  
  nVidia is (I believe) a Khronos founding member. They've always supported and contributed to DX and OpenGL.
  
  DX survives because MS pushes it. They're the 800b gorilla with a monopoly over PC gamer operating systems and a strong share in the console market with the XBox One.
18. Re:Buh-bye DX12 by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-22 20:09 · Score: 0
  
  Nothing that MS can do will ever kill Steam. You are a fucking moron.
19. Re:Buh-bye DX12 by UnknownSoldier · 2015-09-22 23:04 · Score: 1
  
  > The PS2 was certainly not very similar to OpenGL (very low-level stuff),
  Exactly. You'd fill this big "command buffer" and DMA it to the GS. You would never (directly) set GPU registers in OpenGL -- the driver would be doing that for you.
  > but I remember the PS3's libgcm being somewhat similar to earlier OpenGL versions, although the SPUs made it much more challenging, and the focus on the command buffer was a bit different
  That's true, that libgcm definitely was much more "aligned" with OpenGL; Sony always had NIH syndrome.
  > The Gamecube was much more similar to OpenGL than Sony's libraries from what I recall, and much easier to use.
  Yup! Same with the Wii -- which was literally a Gamecube overclocked 2x. The Wii's GPU (Hollywood) had the _exact_ same hardware bugs as the Gamecube's GPU (Flipper) for crying out loud ! :-)
  The Wii's GX library was a joy to use compared to the low level PS2 register bit twiddling.
20. Re:Buh-bye DX12 by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-23 00:08 · Score: 0
  
  nothing apple can do will kill blackberry
  nothing Microsoft can do will kill Sun
  The list of companies that were thought to be indestructible and not long after went bust is very long and many of them were in much much stronger positions than Valve. so yeah someone is a fucking moron, but you might need a mirror to see them.
21. Re:Buh-bye DX12 by Narishma · 2015-09-23 00:28 · Score: 1
  
  [...]as has Sony [...]
  That's a myth. The only time Sony has used anything related to OpenGL in their consoles is early in the PS3 cycle when they had a custom blend of OpenGL ES with Nvidia's Cg shaders. Pretty much no game developer bother with it because it was very slow compared to Sony's proprietary low-level API.
  
  --
  Mada mada dane.
22. Re:Buh-bye DX12 by Dutch+Gun · 2015-09-23 01:30 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, I shouldn't have described it like that - my bad (see retraction above). It's been a while since I worked on PS games, and I think I remembered them as a little more OpenGL-like than they were. The PS2 was nothing like OpenGL, while the PS3 native libs were vaguely similar, but certainly not OpenGL in any sense.
  
  --
  Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
23. Re:Buh-bye DX12 by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-23 01:56 · Score: 0
  
  nothing Microsoft can do will kill Sun
  Red Hat killed Sun, not Microsoft.
  
  nothing apple can do will kill blackberry
  Blackberry killed Blackberry.
24. Re:Buh-bye DX12 by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-23 02:12 · Score: 1
  
  >>>Valve is so far ahead of everyone when it comes to game distribution that there is little chance Microsoft will ever pose a threat.
  That's what they said about WordPerfect.
25. Re:Buh-bye DX12 by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-23 04:43 · Score: 1
  
  NVIDIA is a major player in Khronos Group. I'd like to think that we (I work there) go after the technology that can turn a profit, and OpenGL has always been a big revenue source for us. I'm skeptical of Vulkan's utility in a world primarily of small game developers. We'll likely only see a few of the larger engines supporting it as it takes quite a bit of expertise to make Vulkan-based code work and be high performance.
  DX will be around as long as Microsoft remains relevant. But fair warning, I work on the Linux side of the company, and I've seen too many MS projects crash and burn over the years. Remember Kin, Zune, Surface RT, and Windows RT ? NVIDIA was involved in all of those, and was burned by every one of them.
  At this point, it's amazing we still answer Microsoft's phone calls.
26. Re:Buh-bye DX12 by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-23 17:29 · Score: 0
  
  and Valve will kill Valve in the desperation to keep themselves differentiated from MS. arguably that is MS killing them, but really it will be suicide and I would put it as a definite chance at this stage as they seem to be making a lot of rushed decisions out of fear rather than planning.
shhhh... by turkeydance · 2015-09-22 11:53 · Score: 1

be berry, berry quiet.
Clang/LLVM by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-22 12:00 · Score: 0

Hopefully this also means Nintendo will be adopting use of Clang/LLVM for their future dev kits. I'm tired of using old versions of ARM CC or Cygwin that don't support C++11 or C++14. Nintendo has been holding the rest of the industry back for years now.
DRM incoming... by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-22 12:13 · Score: 1

.... I can see some bullshit DRM like thing happening in the future.
They are trying to encrypt all game code over the long term and host it on the other side of the net. Via streaming. Save this comment and in 20-30 years see if I was right.
1. Re:DRM incoming... by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-22 12:19 · Score: 1
  
  .... I can see some bullshit DRM like thing happening in the future.
  Actually AMD already confirmed a week ago that they are making a Direct Rendering Manager driver for Vulkan
2. Re:DRM incoming... by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-22 16:41 · Score: 0
  
  I said the future, aka because Nintendo is just getting involved, we'll see it down the line. Remember, Nintendo is hardcore about protecting their stuff. They made the gamecube have mini-discs and with the Wii they forced bios/firmware updates via taking advantage of customer ignorance (just leaving the wii online) or via releasing new games that "require" the update.
3. Re:DRM incoming... by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-22 18:17 · Score: 0
  
  I'm pretty sure he means Digital Rights Management.
4. Re:DRM incoming... by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-22 21:01 · Score: 1
  
  You are probably right.
  Nintendo doesn't like any of their games to be streamed on twitch. They probably want HDCP turned on via opengl.
5. Re:DRM incoming... by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-22 22:49 · Score: 0
  
  Yes, how dare they try to prevent piracy. Those monsters!
DX12 --- Win? Win what? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-22 12:38 · Score: 0

Is DX12 going to win on a Mac? On a PS4? On a iPhone? On an android phone?
Maybe DX12 can win in WebGL? Oh wait.

What desktop-centric world from the 2005 are you living in?

And why are you 10 years out of date?
Re:DX12 --- Win? Win what? by tepples · 2015-09-22 13:42 · Score: 1

Not all game designs are well suited to the touch input of iPhone and Android phones. For example, good luck finding a usable control scheme for something like Mega Man without having to pair an MFi or MOGA gamepad. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine there are more Xbox One consoles (which support DirectX) than Macs and GNU/Linux PCs used for gaming.
Re:DX12 --- Win? Win what? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-22 14:27 · Score: 1

The desktop centric world that generates all of that software and content for your idiot consumption devices. An added bonus is that these machines also make premium consumption devices, too!
Re:DX12 --- Win? Win what? by TheRaven64 · 2015-09-22 21:57 · Score: 1

Android has supported bluetooth gamepads for a while and the nVidia app store thingy includes a lot of games that strongly recommend having one. An increasing trend for game publishers is to sell their older titles for mobile to make even more money. Modern tablets have HDMI output, can support multiple bluetooth game pads, and have a GPU that's faster than last generation's consoles. This is a great place to be able to sell your 'old' games to a completely new market. Publishers that are thinking ahead will be making sure that the port is easy for the games that they release now. For most, this doesn't actually mean using OpenGL directly: it means using in-house middleware that abstracts over the implementation details of each platform and then performance tuning for the ones where it matters.

--
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
atrophy by bloodhawk · 2015-09-22 23:37 · Score: 1

design by massive committee, I expect the first version of Vulkan to be great. Then each subsequent release to gradually fall further behind like OpenGL. With so many people in the group all with voting rights and pushing their own agenda's you get atrophy.
1. Re:atrophy by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-23 09:40 · Score: 0
  
  Let's hope not. Competition with DirectX could keep them honest.
Supported, but who owns them? by tepples · 2015-09-23 04:09 · Score: 1

Android has supported bluetooth gamepads for a while
But how many people actually own one? I haven't yet seen a manufacturer of clip-on Bluetooth gamepads for Android phones that's willing to divulge sales figures to the public (and to prospective developers). Nor have I seen one used on the bus or in the mall or anywhere else in my home town.
Or are you referring to the app titled Sixaxis Controller for using DualShock 3 controllers on select Android phones and tablets? Someone who doesn't own a PlayStation 3 console is unlikely to own a DualShock 3. I imagine that someone who does is more likely to buy games for the PlayStation 3 on PlayStation Store than to take his chances with the app titled Sixaxis Compatibility Checker and a phone's HDMI output. Besides, I haven't seen a lot of devices in stores to clip the DualShock 3 to a phone for use as a makeshift substitute for a PlayStation Vita or Nintendo 3DS.
1. Re:Supported, but who owns them? by TheRaven64 · 2015-09-23 05:09 · Score: 1
  
  But how many people actually own one? I haven't yet seen a manufacturer of clip-on Bluetooth gamepads for Android phones that's willing to divulge sales figures to the public
  People aren't making game pads for Android phones. The same ones that people use on the PCs and (some) consoles work with Android phones. They're just Bluetooth HID devices, not something special and specific to Android.
  
  --
  I am TheRaven on Soylent News
2. Re:Supported, but who owns them? by tepples · 2015-09-23 07:09 · Score: 1
  People aren't making game pads for Android phones. The same ones that people use on the PCs
  Then let me rephrase: How many people own generic Bluetooth HID gamepads designed for PCs? Do makers of those divulge sales figures? Besides, it's hard to carry a phone in one hand and a gamepad in the other, which is what you have to do if the gamepad doesn't come with a way of clipping it to the phone.
  
  and (some) consoles
  Consoles, plural?
  
  Xbox 360 and Xbox One controllers use proprietary RF, not Bluetooth. The wired ones work through a USB OTG cable though. Xbox One controllers also work wired with a PC running Windows 7 or later, but I haven't owned one with which to test on an Android device or GNU/Linux PC.
  A change to the Bluetooth stack in Android 4.2 broke the Wiimote Controller app. It hasn't been fixed since.
  If someone buys a DualShock 3 controller only to find that his particular phone is incompatible, that's a poor user experience.