Slashdot Mirror


VW Fiasco Puts Ethics In Engineering Under the Spotlight, CEO Steps Down

szczys writes: By now you've heard that VW has been accused of doctoring the software in their small diesel models to sidestep emissions standards. The thing that hasn't been talked about is engineering ethics. An algorithm in the code detects when the vehicle is under test conditions and causes it to perform differently. This couldn't have been accomplished by just one person. Brian Benchoff looks at the conditions leading up to the scandal and discusses the engineering ethics involved. Automotive engineers are held to a higher standard because mistakes and cut corners can kill people. This kind of suspected deceit goes well beyond concerns of environmental damage. Willing ethics violations challenge our trust of the engineering as a whole. Volkswagen‘s chief executive Martin Winterkorn has announced he is stepping down.

26 of 569 comments (clear)

  1. This wasn't an engineering decision... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This was a financial decision, pure and simple. Someone in a suit decided it would be more profitable to hide non-compliance, rather than spend the resourcing fixing the problem *with* proper engineering.

    1. Re:This wasn't an engineering decision... by Rei · · Score: 4, Insightful

      To be fair, the "proper engineering" fixes available all are some combination of reducing performance and increasing cost. Which is what their competitors had to do to meet the standards. Volkswagen's cheating gave them a leg up, allowing them to offer more powerful, cheaper vehicles at a given emissions level.

      So yes, the cheating was a financial decision, but it wasn't out of laziness - it was out of a well known tangible benefit for doing so.

      And as a result, they've killed people. I know it's not as visible or dramatic as a car going out of control or the like, but the connection between NOx and premature death is well established, both in high-NOx and low-NOx areas. NOx is what makes Beijing air that lovely brownish color. Volkswagen willingly killed people to steal sales from its competitors.

      --
      Crowd: What do we want? Fry: Fry's dog! Crowd: When do we want it? Fry: Fry's dog!
    2. Re:This wasn't an engineering decision... by kheldan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Exactly. There are commonalities all over the world: Your boss tells you to do something, you refuse to do it, you get fired and they get someone else to do what they want anyway. In this case they weren't being told to do something that would (directly, or in the near term) endanger human lives, just to pollute the environment. If they were unwilling to write the code that did what the suits demanded, they'd fire them and get someone else to do it. These guys have families like most people that they have to provide for, and 'honey, I got fired because I told my boss I wouldn't do what he asked me to do' doesn't play well. Of course I'm not saying I know the engineers involved actually had objections, it's entirely possible they didn't even care one way or another, but like what the OP is saying, it was the decision of someone in a suit, not the author(s) of the code in question.

      Additionally, to be fair about it: There might not be a 'proper engineering' solution to the emissions problem. Face it: We're nearing end-of-life for internal combustion engines, due to their exhaust emissions and their impact on the environment. That plus the eventual exhaustion of fossil fuel means we should be moving away from internal combustion engines anyway. But of course your average business animal doesn't give a rats' ass about any of that, all they care about is their near-term bottom line, and how much of it they can put in their own pockets.

      --
      Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
    3. Re:This wasn't an engineering decision... by lgw · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I see this as a good act on the part of the VW engineers myself, giving their customers a better vehicle, in the ways you've noted, while cheating to meet meaningless standards. I see it as civil disobedience, and I think your notion of it killing people in US vehicles is laughable, as we're so far past the point of diminishing returns on tailpipe exhaust regs.

      But that's the thing about "ethical concerns": we all have different values, different tradeoffs we see as optimal, and both democracy and "might makes right" have proven poor systems for choosing between sets of values.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    4. Re:This wasn't an engineering decision... by Rei · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Right. Peer reviewed research is "laughable" and giant car manufacturers cheating on emissions tests and lying about is is "ethics". Gotcha.

      --
      Crowd: What do we want? Fry: Fry's dog! Crowd: When do we want it? Fry: Fry's dog!
    5. Re:This wasn't an engineering decision... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The EPA standards are far and beyond what Europe requires to the point of being Draconian. They were forced on the automakers with little to no warning, forcing companies to either design from scratch, or go to other companies and buy something. Had this not been the case, the infamous Ford "6.blow" engine would never have been even considered.

      The sad thing is that after all the EGR/DEF/DPF additions, diesels have lost their reliability factor. Particle filters get plugged, piss tanks get crystals in them so EPA mandated engine DRM will prevent owners from starting their vehicles, and customers have to pay more for unreliable engines.

      Then you get catch 22 items... like vehicles having warranties that void if one runs more than B5 in the tank. Well, most of the US can go up to B20 and the pumps not warnl you. So, just by buying a vehicle and using it, it can foul, throw codes, and then the owner is now having to foot the bill for new injectors, high pressure fuel pumps, and other crap.

      Maybe VW can fight in court and have the EPA's regulation passing at least slowed down so technology can keep up with their imagination.

    6. Re:This wasn't an engineering decision... by Rei · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There's a difference between a substance being bad (which has been empirically demonstrated) and it being dangerous at the concentrations being suggested.

      Just like there's a difference between knowing the fact that the health impacts of the NOx emitted at various emissions standards has been quite studied in the peer-reviewed literature, including cost benefits analyses, versus posting about the topic while simply assuming that there hasn't been any study on the topic.

      --
      Crowd: What do we want? Fry: Fry's dog! Crowd: When do we want it? Fry: Fry's dog!
    7. Re:This wasn't an engineering decision... by alvinrod · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Then at least link to some of that literature if you're going to make a counter argument. Sure, I could look myself, but there are thousands of other people who would have to do the same. Since you seem to be aware of such literature existing and that it includes a cost-benefit analysis, then you're also far more likely to know where you can easily find it, as well as pointing out the parts of it that are relevant to the argument you're presenting.

      I don't want to sound like a prick that just wants to argue or someone who's just making excuses not to believe you, but there's been far too much shit passed off as common knowledge that I've only come to learn later was not quite as true as originally purported. I could probably make assumptions of correctness based on reputation, but even people who are right about something the vast majority of the time are still occasionally wrong.

    8. Re:This wasn't an engineering decision... by Ly4 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      ... at one point in time it would have been unethical to not return an escaped slave.
      Today's hint: if you have to make ridiculous statements like this to support your point, then you probably don't have a point.

      The ethics argument is not about the level of pollution that the cars were emitting: the bigger issue is that they were *lying* about those levels, thus depriving everyone (consumers, regulators, people who breath) of the information needed to make informed choices.

    9. Re:This wasn't an engineering decision... by tibit · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Dafuck?! EPA does not mandate stupid engineering. The automaker fucked up. What, their ansys or nastran licenses ran out and they couldn't fucking model what was going on, and/or experimentally validate the engine block/head design? This is a noob mistake - whether precipitated by stupid management, or noob designers, or both, who knows. Blaming it on EPA is going full retard.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    10. Re:This wasn't an engineering decision... by Ravaldy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Then what's the point of putting regulations for corporations for them to be overruled by corporations themselves?

      It's irrelevant if there's an industry that pollutes more than another because we always grab the low hanging fruit first. When these regulations are put in place it's usually for many reasons.
      1. It can be reached with a reasonable amount of cost while promoting the economy
      2. Minimal adverse effect or in many cases benefits
      3. It solves a problem

      In the case of the auto industry, regulations in late 70s forced auto makers to be innovative. The result is cars that are twice as efficient and more powerful.

      Want to talk about regulations in HVAC. I can tell you about how the continued implementation of striker regulations has allowed the industry to strive, improve it's product offering and provide better efficiencies for the heating and cooling of buildings all around North America.

      Government regulations are the only mean the little guys have to avoid corporations from shitting all over us.

    11. Re:This wasn't an engineering decision... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      You don't get to decide what the value of human life is. Neither do the engineers.

      That's what Planned Parenthood does.

  2. Re:That's not an ethics issue, just plain fraud by codeAlDente · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The issue is probably not foreign vs non-foreign. I think ZeroHedge probably gets it right: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/...

    --
    He once inserted random mutations into his code, just so he could have the experience of debugging.
  3. I said "No, I won't put that code in." by BoRegardless · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And the manager said, "You're fired."

    1. Re:I said "No, I won't put that code in." by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Exactly. The basic problem is a lack of management ethics. Management considers it perfectly acceptable to cheat like this, knowing they're cheating and breaking the law while doing so, and they expect everyone in the organization to follow along. Management also considers it perfectly acceptable to lie about why they let someone go, rather than simply fire them for disobeying orders (which would leave the employee free to say exactly what orders they disobeyed) they find some other innocuous excuse and leave the employee no real way to respond when asked by a future employer why they were terminated. Until management ethics is fixed, it won't be possible to do anything about engineering ethics.

  4. Just VW? I'm sure at LEAST one other dose this too by denis-The-menace · · Score: 3, Insightful

    We must be naive to think only one car company does this.

    The mileage I get from my car are not as good as what my dashboard say and I don't have a VW.

    --
    Obama's legacy: (N)othing (S)ecure (A)nywhere and (T)error (S)imulation (A)dministration
  5. Re:Whistleblowing by phantomfive · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Sometimes people don't see things as unethical. It wouldn't surprise me if all the engineers thought, "stupid Americans and their regulations......we know how to make an engine that is clean enough."

    For comparison, it might be unethical to work in the advertising industry. You're mainly just showing ads that annoy people, and you're also giving them malware. It might also be unethical to build weapons of war. A lot of what bankers do is unethical.

    Yet people in all those industries have their own justification to explain why it's ok to work on those products. When I worked in ad-tech, I would ask a lot of my coworkers how they felt about it, and they had different justifications, but everyone had one. I'm not trying to condemn them here, just pointing out that what one person considers unethical, another feels perfectly fine with.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  6. And if VW were an American Company... by tekrat · · Score: 3, Insightful

    All they have to do is buy a Senator or Presidential Candidate to rail against "job crushing regulations within the industry", and immediately propose removal of all regulations for cars.

    Hell, cars can come out of the factory without even seatbelts. Or wheels. Because it would stimulate the economy.

    Either that, or they would work hard to get the law changed so that what VW did was perfectly legal. After all, that's how the financial industry works. Credit Default Swaps? Still entirely legal.

    --
    If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
  7. Tip of Iceberg? by willworkforbeer · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Now begins the testing of all vehicles' claims; it makes you wonder what will be dug up in the next few months. Odds of this being isolated to VW, low.

    --
    Pretending this is my office full of bitter coworkers..
  8. SOME programmers should be licensed by davidwr · · Score: 5, Insightful

    SOME computer software should be "signed off on" by a licensed professional who is subject to the same kinds of professional sanctions as engineers are if they behave unethically.

    I'm mainly thinking pacemaker- and other medical-device-firmware but I would throw air-bag and other auto-safety-system software in there as well. You sign off on pacemaker software where corners were cut and someone dies or their health is endangered, YOU should get your license sanctioned or revoked, even if you did it at your employer's behest, just like if a civil engineer signed off on a sub-standard bridge design or inspection because his employer pressured him to do so.

    As for software engineers who write engine pollution control software, where nobody gets seriously injured or killed (at least not immediately *coughwheezegaspithoughtwewereinkansasnotbeijing*), they should certainly behave ethically but the purpose of professional licensing is to protect the public safety and the client (in this case, the car company) from financial abuse by the professional (in this case the employee). It is not to protect the car-buying public from being ripped off by the car company lying through their teeth. We've got other forms of government regulation and civil and criminal courts to address those issues.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  9. They knew what they were doing by sjbe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Nobody ever said, "go forth and flaunt the law" maybe $Engineer did not even realize what he was doing violated the testing rules.

    I have spent a good portion of my career as an engineer in the automotive industry. There is NO WAY the engineers doing this were not fully aware that what they were doing was in violation of the law. To program this they would have to be aware of what the rules were and so they cannot argue that they didn't realize what they were doing. They weren't stupid, they weren't naive. They knew exactly what they were doing at the time they did it.

    No, this was a deliberate fraud. Probably ordered by management but executed and carried out by engineers who damn well knew or should have known what they were doing was illegal as hell.

  10. Speaking as an engineer... by fyngyrz · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It seems to me that at least some of this finger pointing should go towards the idiots who created the circumstance where the item under test was informed it was under test. That presumes an atmosphere of trust that the very idea of "testing for compliance" does not, and should not, incorporate.

    I'm not saying VW is blameless in this, or making any statement about the consequences to society or lack thereof. I'm just saying someone, or more than one someone, is culpable as having set up the circumstances where this could even happen.

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    1. Re:Speaking as an engineer... by tibit · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The especially egregious aspect of that is: this fundamentally flawed testing regimen isn't free in terms of resources either. Not only it costs us, the car owners, money, but that money, and everything it's spent on downstream, is pure waste. The energy used to perform the tests? You might as well run the same number of kWh through a heater into the sea. The personnel costs, and the amortized resources they need? You could just dump those into the sea with the same overall benefit to the society.

      The make-work tests are worse to the environment than none. All the resources and productivity they consume could be better spent elsewhere.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
  11. Illegal orders should be refused. by sjbe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Your boss tells you to do something, you refuse to do it, you get fired and they get someone else to do what they want anyway.

    If your boss is ordering you to do something that you damn well know is illegal then you should refuse. If they want to fire you for that then so be it. This is not a complicated scenario. Having a family to feed is not adequate justification for fraud and frankly weren't not talking about the sort of workers who cannot ever get another job. These are well paid engineers with options.

    it was the decision of someone in a suit, not the author(s) of the code in question.

    Bullshit. That's the "I was just following orders" defense. The order may have come from up high but the decision to execute that illegal order makes the engineers every bit as culpable. The guy executing the crime is just as guilty as the guy who plans the crime.

    There might not be a 'proper engineering' solution to the emissions problem.

    That's not an excuse to commit fraud even if true.

    1. Re:Illegal orders should be refused. by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Having a family to feed is not adequate justification for fraud and frankly weren't not talking about the sort of workers who cannot ever get another job. These are well paid engineers with options.

      bullshit. spoken as someone who has never been on the 'blacklist' and been denied jobs and been near the brink of homelessness.

      I have direct experience in this. been out of work for 9 months now, still no job offers and I'm nearly broke. the insensitive among you will blame me and say its all my fault for not being 'good enough' but I'm not going to feed the trolls. suffice to say, many people, not due to their own faults, are denied jobs and if you have rent to pay, its an incredible amount of stress to face being out of work long enough to lose your home and all your savings.

      unless you have done this at least once, you have NO RIGHT to blame others for keeping an income going. jobs are NOT 'just around the corner' for every skilled person who wants one; that's a stupid republican talking point that has long since been untrue (since the fall of our economy, post-clinton days).

      I have tons of sympathy for those who try to find work and can't get it. its being in that position that has increased my humanity and empathy. I suspect your life-experience is void of this; but don't worry, as you approach 45 and older, you WILL find out what I've been rambling about. but by then, you will be one of the 'struggles to stay employed' guys. will you feel any sympathy for your future self, now? or do you need to actually live thru that to get what I'm saying??

      we all need to be more understanding of the realities of being a working class guy who simply wants to keep working and have the bills be covered. the attitude of blaming the worker has to stop. the bosses are trying to change the dialog and, for many of you, you have bought into his lies and deceipt.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
  12. Re:EPA standards by careysub · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...

    Something is seriously messed up there.

    There is indeed. It is the fruit of corporate lobbying.

    Domestic vehicle makers have maintained a relative advantage in the SUV and sport truck marketplaces, practically alone among all vehicle categories. They also (not surprisingly) have their highest profit margins on these vehicles. Accordingly they have worked hard to make sure that special favors to promote those vehicle categories are written into law. The regulatory-industry turnstile ensures that favorable interpretations by (soon to be industry consultant) regulators.

    Some years back there was actually a tax credit for heavy SUVs and trucks, which were classified automatically as "commercial vehicles" which in turn got an automatic "commercial vehicle purchase" tax credit without needing any showing of commercial use so that the tax payer was subsidizing the sale of gas guzzling toys to the well off (but they were American! toys.)

    --
    Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj