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EPA To Overhaul Emissions Testing In the Wake of VW Cheating
New submitter kheldan writes with this snippet from The Consumerist: A week after ordering Volkswagen to recall 500,000 vehicles that contain "defeat devices" designed to cheat emissions tests, the Environmental Protection Agency announced it would overhaul its compliance processes to ensure vehicles meet standards not only in controlled environments but in real-world driving conditions, and adds What may be the story-behind-the-story here, are the two Elephants in the Room: One, how many other automakers in the world have been 'gaming' the system like German automakers apparently have been all along, and Two, are these changes to the certification process at the USEPA going to 'trickle down' to the state and local levels, affecting routine emissions testing of individual vehicles? Questions peripheral to these may include: How much is this going to affect new vehicle prices in the future, and how much is this going to affect the fair market value of used vehicles?
Just buy a Tesla already
The system is flawed.
First let me say that this change is urgently needed.
But, it's unlikely that automakers who build gasoline cars are cheating like VW did. It's especially difficult to clean NOx from diesel engine exhaust because unlike gasoline engines, the exhaust contains lots of extra oxygen. Diesels need special NOx-cleaning devices which add cost and weight, and can seriously limit performance in some situations. Gasoline engines just need minor modifications to the engine computer software and the catalytic converter to clean NOx, so there's very little need to cheat.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
http://www.google.com/patents/...
It's especially difficult to clean NOx from diesel engine exhaust because unlike gasoline engines, the exhaust contains lots of extra oxygen. Diesels need special NOx-cleaning devices which add cost and weight, and can seriously limit performance in some situations.
No. It is no longer especially difficult because VW and other diesel makers have already solved this problem. Every cheating VW diesel on the road can have low polluting exhaust. The hardware and software is there, already installed and operating. That is how they pass emissions tests, the software enables all the emissions controls. How the software cheats is to turn off the emission controls if it looks like someone is actually driving.
The fix is a simple software patch to stop turning off the emissions controls.
The downside is that performance and mileage will be reduced.
It's optimized for both. Low emissions during the cycle to get low taxes on the car, and for mileage and driving fun outside of the cycle. Absolute win for the individual customer. Why does anyone complain?
(the general public was cheated by more emissions, but not the individual owner.)
"the Environmental Protection Agency announced it would overhaul its compliance processes"
Would they want to know, who wrote the software and who authorized the writing of the software?
FWIW if the emissions controls are controlled by software then disabling them to boost performance may be just as plausible a tactic for gasoline engines as diesel engines. Of course the payback may be smaller and so the risk/reward to an automaker may not tempt them so much. However some hobbyists may disable their emissions even for a minor performance boost when modifying their car.
I read a story many years (10+?) ago about an device that would measure exhaust from the roadside and that money spent on emissions stations, equipment, technicians would be better spent and the environment would be cleaner if we measured vehicles on the road as they drove by and got the most egregious violators causing the most pollution into compliance or off the road.
Emissions testing never did anything -- you just had to spend $50 or something max to "repair" your vehicle, and if that didn't bring it back up to where it should be, oh well.
Many states got rid of it because it was stupid and most of the problem is really old cars as newer cars keep getting better and better.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
The religion of continuous progress is hitting the wall of engineering reality. We're hitting limits everywhere, and the only way to "meet" unrealistic goals is by cheating because simply put, technology eventually slows down and plateaus.
But this goes against the geek religion that just because we got better at storing information, this somehow means all technologies increase at the same pace.
http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the...
Maybe it's time to change the focus of our "progress" away from the machines and towards our social models. No one needs that many cars if we accept that not everyone needs to work anymore.
ya think?
The other question that needs to be asked is whether or not we're making stricter and stricter emissions standards based on politics or a technical basis. If making things stricter than reasonable, companies will find ways to game the system. Make reasonable reductions based on actual projections of current technology, and they're less likely to try to engineer around real improvements with cheats. More reasonable reductions along with incentives for breakthrough improvements would go a lot further.
Their boss is about a political agenda, not a health one. They are always going to serve that. The problem with serving that is that they are always going to do their primary duty second. This means they are never going to be successful in their primary mission .... much like law enforcement.
and this is why it's important to stick to the medication's schedule.
The tests the article is about are the ones that keep the cars improving. The tests the manufacturers have to take are different from the ones the individuals have to take.
If they use a closed course to do real world testing, it'll still be defeatable using GPS.
Which would be hilarious.
Yet the ones the individuals have to take are related to those. In my state is some % from what the car was designed for. The car is designed to that years particular emissions laws.
My state moved to odbII sensor checking instead of tailpipe checks. Cars before 1997 are exempt from the test for that very reason. The tailpipe test was dead easy to fake out. I knew of two 'inspection shacks' that would fake it out for you for an extra 50.
I know, it might be unpopular, but consider this explanation: what if that mode was designed to be turned on when car detects running in a badly ventilated area like indoors or in a tunnel and such? Just to avoid becoming a health hazard. And nobody realized that such mode would interfere with EPA tests. And VW own testers were simply replicating EPA testing rig to insure that ther testing is the same, while having no clue how engine works. While it is still probable, that someone in VW realized that there is a problem, they kept their mouth shut for various reasons. But generally this explanation does not require any wide conspiracy or anything.
Reparations from Germany? That tends not to go as planned nor end well.
Lets see how many people bring their VW in to have the ECU s/w updated. I mean without an EPA threat to brin them in or else. I'll bet that most people will weigh a little higher NOx emmissions against driving a gutless pig and not find time to get it in to the shop.
Their state could do it. Want to re-register your vehicle, show us your software update certificate. It could be another checkbox on the smog tests that many states require every year or two for registration.
that'll kill jobs and stifle "innovation".
After all, VW's solution was highly innovative, right?
Pain is merely failure leaving the body
One, how many other automakers in the world have been 'gaming' the system like German automakers apparently have been all along,
Well, in fairness, the same university that found the issue with VW did test a diesel BMW in real world conditions and it passed with flying colors.
And when you say "German automakers", you should say "German automaker". It's only VW (and its subsidiary Audi).
And a number of US large truck manufacturers were previously caught doing the same thing:
http://jalopnik.com/how-the-ep...
Yet the ones the individuals have to take are related to those. In my state is some % from what the car was designed for. The car is designed to that years particular emissions laws.
My state moved to odbII sensor checking instead of tailpipe checks. Cars before 1997 are exempt from the test for that very reason. The tailpipe test was dead easy to fake out. I knew of two 'inspection shacks' that would fake it out for you for an extra 50.
In mt state, you used to have to get your car tested every year before you could get your tag sticker. The inspection was done at licensed repair facilities. As you can imagine, this ended up costing people lots of money to get their inspection sticker because the outfits that inspected also did the "necessary" work, like changing your windshield wipers, emptying your ashtrays, filling up your windshield wiper fluid, installing new shocks. I actually think the windshield wipers were part of the certification according to the state, but I think that a lot of them ended up getting replace that were just fine.
As far as gaming the system, I once had an exhaust leak in the muffler which was causing TOO LITTLE carcinogens to get to the tailpipe, and so my car failed the inspection.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
the EPA regs also state that you may not include devices designed to defeat EPA testing
They don't - the device is included to pass, not defeat.
Also what really is "the device", because the thing that passes is the same "device" that would not pass.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
This sounds like the required Federal testing for students. The Feds give out the information that children must know, and so the administration teaches the children that information.
Are you familiar with the FAA written exams for private pilots? Passing score is 70% and 80% of the questions are known ahead of time. These questions are from exams from previous years, unchanged, and these exams are available for study and practice. The 20% of questions that are "new", largely old questions with the given numbers changed.
Because, Yoorop. We've been taught that Yoorop is the epitome of everything that's good, smart and sophisticated. We cannot allow people to lose faith in Yoorop.
Yes, I understand that VW cheated the regulators in terms of emissions. Fair enough. They cheated. They got caught. They should pay the price.
What I don't understand is end users being upset. In my life, I've purchased 5 cars to date (all new). Never has the emissions level of the vehicle been a factor, at any level, in my decision over which vehicle to purchase. Horsepower? Yes, Fuel efficiency? Yes. Cost? Yes. Emissions? Not even on the radar.
What am I missing?
linquendum tondere
From that I've read, it's actually a point. A badly maintained junker that's burning a quart of oil every 200 miles can actually pollute, per mile driven, equal to around 1k new cars that are properly compliant. For that matter, operating a push lawnmower for long enough to mow your yard will emit more than your car will all month.
Allowable NOx levels were cut by an order of magnitude last round, and in previous rounds as well.
I don't read AC A human right
Once again, listen carefully. You don't deter/avoid/eliminate malicious behaviour like this by creating more stringent testing methods. What you've here is decided to spend more money to create better compliance testing, in a world where those being tested (car makers) can profit by finding better ways to cheat.
Congrats, you're just going to breed better cheaters.
And it's obvious why: your playbook is public, theirs is not. They know how you're going to test them. You don't know how they are going to cheat. And we're back to security theatre.
The truly aggravating part is that there's a very easy way to deter this sort of thing: you make it simply destructive to their bottom line. If the penalty for cheating makes it not worthwhile cheating, then they won't cheat. I believe we've said it can be as high as $18 billion dollars. Good start. We're also talking about cars, engineering, safety concerns, false advertising, and stubbing the laws. Sounds like jail time to me -- for anyone responsible for the code, or for supervising the code, right up the chain.
That's why I don't commit significant crimes. It's not because I'm being tested. It's because I risk jail time.
The EPA (and some states like California) have requirements that must be met before cars can be sold. So it's not so much an issue that the buyers wouldn't have selected the vehicles because they were more polluting -- it's that the vehicles shouldn't have been available for sale *at* *all*.
And once they fix the problems, then the fuel efficiency will be lower, which is one of the factors that many buyers consider (and you mentioned yourself).
Another issue that I haven't heard discussed if the CAFE standards -- they're for whole fleets, not for individual cars. If VW was near the limit, then worse gas mileage could trigger a penalty based on the total number of cars sold.
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
EPA walks into a random dealership and says, "We're taking this bitch for a test drive." Hook up a sensor to the exhaust and go. If it fails, more tests. Find out the cause and correct from there.
Why do you find it odd? If the exhaust system leaks then not all the emissions will go out of the tailpipe. Tailpipe readings are useless if a large % of the exhaust are slip sliding away through a broken and leaky pipe.
It is surprising that the EPA seems to be shocked and appalled by the VW "Cheats." It was known and discussed that manufacturers were adapting vehicles specifically to do better on EPA tests. Sometime with full knowledge that the emissions would be worse in the real world.
The big difference here is that VW made it explicitly change the settings based on being tested.
Hopefully the GOP will find a way to crush the dual EPA system. We have two, one in California and one at the federal level. The Federal clean air act prevents any other state from implementing yet another EPA.
There are no actual emissions standard in the USA. According to an article on Scientific American, every make and model must go through a negotiation process, in secret -- in other words, it’s likely another “pay for play” system that the progressive democrats have created.
There are hints that CARB dropped the NOx limit to 1/2 that of the EU when VW applied to bring the low end diesels to the US. Note that California hates diesels -- they have a consumption tax on gasoline making it $1 higher, per gallon, than the rest of the nation, and diesel fuel is exempt from at least some of these taxes. Every diesel sold in California is a huge loss of consumption tax revenue for the deep blue, progressive democrat controlled state.
Apparently VW's emissions team went to management and told them that the only way to meet the new standard was to install the expensive AdBlue / Urea injection system on the little 4 cylinder, E189 diesel engine. VW refused to authorize the addition of AdBlue technology, claiming that it would price the low cost diesels out of the market. VW's emissions engineers, stuck between the arbitrary, impossible to meet California demands and their employment with VW, appear to have flipped California the bird. The real question is -- given the same choice -- serving a foreign government, a state that is biased against your product, and your paycheck and employment, what is the decision? Quit or hope you don't get caught? Apparently they didn't quit. How many engineers have opened a contract to find impossible requirements?
The only correct reform is to dissolve California’s EPA and reform the Federal EPA so that they provide an emission limit by gas percentage, and publish it for every fuel type. Completely end the practice of secret deals by make and model. Allow the private sector to innovate certified, transponder based sniffers, perhaps at the Autozone or Pepboys level.
If California did lower the NOx levels for this set of cars to unreasonable levels, in order to increase tax revenue, CARB and CAL-EPA should be dissolved immediately for violating the US Constitutional restriction against taxation without representation, and VW should be unconditionally pardoned.
This sounds like the required Federal testing for students. The Feds give out the information that children must know, and so the administration teaches the children that information.
Are you familiar with the FAA written exams for private pilots? Passing score is 70% and 80% of the questions are known ahead of time. These questions are from exams from previous years, unchanged, and these exams are available for study and practice. The 20% of questions that are "new", largely old questions with the given numbers changed.
Yes, studied past exams and took the test and got a perfect score on the private pilot and then later on the instrument rating. Passed the checkride for Private Pilot first time. Took two tries on the Instrument rating. Turns out studying to the test doesn't correspond to doing well in real world scenarios.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.