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EPA To Overhaul Emissions Testing In the Wake of VW Cheating
New submitter kheldan writes with this snippet from The Consumerist: A week after ordering Volkswagen to recall 500,000 vehicles that contain "defeat devices" designed to cheat emissions tests, the Environmental Protection Agency announced it would overhaul its compliance processes to ensure vehicles meet standards not only in controlled environments but in real-world driving conditions, and adds What may be the story-behind-the-story here, are the two Elephants in the Room: One, how many other automakers in the world have been 'gaming' the system like German automakers apparently have been all along, and Two, are these changes to the certification process at the USEPA going to 'trickle down' to the state and local levels, affecting routine emissions testing of individual vehicles? Questions peripheral to these may include: How much is this going to affect new vehicle prices in the future, and how much is this going to affect the fair market value of used vehicles?
Just buy a Tesla already
The system is flawed.
First let me say that this change is urgently needed.
But, it's unlikely that automakers who build gasoline cars are cheating like VW did. It's especially difficult to clean NOx from diesel engine exhaust because unlike gasoline engines, the exhaust contains lots of extra oxygen. Diesels need special NOx-cleaning devices which add cost and weight, and can seriously limit performance in some situations. Gasoline engines just need minor modifications to the engine computer software and the catalytic converter to clean NOx, so there's very little need to cheat.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
http://www.google.com/patents/...
It's especially difficult to clean NOx from diesel engine exhaust because unlike gasoline engines, the exhaust contains lots of extra oxygen. Diesels need special NOx-cleaning devices which add cost and weight, and can seriously limit performance in some situations.
No. It is no longer especially difficult because VW and other diesel makers have already solved this problem. Every cheating VW diesel on the road can have low polluting exhaust. The hardware and software is there, already installed and operating. That is how they pass emissions tests, the software enables all the emissions controls. How the software cheats is to turn off the emission controls if it looks like someone is actually driving.
The fix is a simple software patch to stop turning off the emissions controls.
The downside is that performance and mileage will be reduced.
"the Environmental Protection Agency announced it would overhaul its compliance processes"
Would they want to know, who wrote the software and who authorized the writing of the software?
FWIW if the emissions controls are controlled by software then disabling them to boost performance may be just as plausible a tactic for gasoline engines as diesel engines. Of course the payback may be smaller and so the risk/reward to an automaker may not tempt them so much. However some hobbyists may disable their emissions even for a minor performance boost when modifying their car.
I imagine many people bought those vehicles because they wanted one that was better for the environment. They may have have even paid extra for them. Then they discover that it's all a bunch of lies, and that what's coming out the tailpipe is probably worse than some other vehicles they might have bought (and maybe paid less money for). It's bait-and-switch. Also, german automakers broke the law, and hundreds of thousands (maybe millions) of vehicles they sold are emitting many times the pollutants than they claimed they do or that they're allowed to. 'Not complaining' after the fact, if you now have knowledge of all this, might, in an ethical sense, make you an accessory after the fact, if you think it's OK for your vehicle to be this way.
Should there be reparations from Volkswagen (and whoever else is also guilty of this) to their customers? Absolutely, in the form of fixing the problem, and likely cash settlements from (a) class action lawsuit(s), because owners of these vehicles may for all we know have their registration renewals held up because of the high emissions.
For my part, all I can say is, I'm damned glad I don't own a German car right now.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
Yeah, the problem is they don't want to do that, because it's "unfair" to people who have old, poorly-maintained cars, because supposedly these cars are either "classics" or they're too poor to afford newer cars. Basically, cars past a certain age are "grandfathered".
Emissions testing never did anything -- you just had to spend $50 or something max to "repair" your vehicle, and if that didn't bring it back up to where it should be, oh well.
Many states got rid of it because it was stupid and most of the problem is really old cars as newer cars keep getting better and better.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
I imagine many people bought those vehicles because they wanted one that was better for the environment.
Lets see how many people bring their VW in to have the ECU s/w updated. I mean without an EPA threat to brin them in or else. I'll bet that most people will weigh a little higher NOx emmissions against driving a gutless pig and not find time to get it in to the shop.
Have gnu, will travel.
Right, but that of course is the problem...
Until we're willing to make those hard choices, this is all just noise...
and this is why it's important to stick to the medication's schedule.
The tests the article is about are the ones that keep the cars improving. The tests the manufacturers have to take are different from the ones the individuals have to take.
Maybe it's time to change the focus of our "progress" away from the machines and towards our social models. No one needs that many cars if we accept that not everyone needs to work anymore.
Show it works first and that people would actually want it. Then show how we're going to get from here to there without a lot of toil.
I know, it might be unpopular, but consider this explanation: what if that mode was designed to be turned on when car detects running in a badly ventilated area like indoors or in a tunnel and such? Just to avoid becoming a health hazard. And nobody realized that such mode would interfere with EPA tests. And VW own testers were simply replicating EPA testing rig to insure that ther testing is the same, while having no clue how engine works. While it is still probable, that someone in VW realized that there is a problem, they kept their mouth shut for various reasons. But generally this explanation does not require any wide conspiracy or anything.
Read about that more than a decade ago in Car and Driver. What ever happened to that idea... Sounded plausible. Any car that failed would get flagged. If the car was a "classic" or "vintage" it was exempt. Otherwise you had to get it fixed. Seemed simple.
How come it takes TWO people working full-time jobs to get a lower standard of living than my parents had in the 1970s with just my Dad working, despite all this "progress" and "productivity" we supposedly have?
Because we decided everyone should have these things, such as education, housing, and health care and then we implemented policies to make those things accessible. Instead, they made them more expensive. Oops.
And notice that the developing world isn't having this trouble.
We bought one because of a long commute (70 miles rountrip), low maintenance (no spark plugs, no valve adjustments, electric power steering) and getting real work 50mpg highway (rated 42hwy).
Bring back the old version of slashdot.
Reparations from Germany? That tends not to go as planned nor end well.
Lets see how many people bring their VW in to have the ECU s/w updated. I mean without an EPA threat to brin them in or else. I'll bet that most people will weigh a little higher NOx emmissions against driving a gutless pig and not find time to get it in to the shop.
Their state could do it. Want to re-register your vehicle, show us your software update certificate. It could be another checkbox on the smog tests that many states require every year or two for registration.
All of the emissions stuff also cost a lot of power, which in turn costs fuel mileage, which in turn causes quite a bit more carbon (something emissions equipment cannot remove), which seems to be a very harped on emissions type these days. .
Yet the ones the individuals have to take are related to those. In my state is some % from what the car was designed for. The car is designed to that years particular emissions laws.
My state moved to odbII sensor checking instead of tailpipe checks. Cars before 1997 are exempt from the test for that very reason. The tailpipe test was dead easy to fake out. I knew of two 'inspection shacks' that would fake it out for you for an extra 50.
In mt state, you used to have to get your car tested every year before you could get your tag sticker. The inspection was done at licensed repair facilities. As you can imagine, this ended up costing people lots of money to get their inspection sticker because the outfits that inspected also did the "necessary" work, like changing your windshield wipers, emptying your ashtrays, filling up your windshield wiper fluid, installing new shocks. I actually think the windshield wipers were part of the certification according to the state, but I think that a lot of them ended up getting replace that were just fine.
As far as gaming the system, I once had an exhaust leak in the muffler which was causing TOO LITTLE carcinogens to get to the tailpipe, and so my car failed the inspection.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
I'm pretty sure more people had access to education, housing and healthcare than do now. In fact, the 1960s have been described as the golden age of healthcare. College Education was far cheaper in both real and adjusted dollars, as was housing and transportation. We have somehow managed to spend more money for worse performance in just about every area of social program that I can think of.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
No, that is not in fact the problem, because most people can't afford to keep cars of that age on the road at all, so there are so few of them that their pollution amounts to a rounding error.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Lets see how many people bring their VW in to have the ECU s/w updated
I'll be interested in that myself.
I mean without an EPA threat to brin them in or else
It won't be the EPA directly, it'll be the EPA working through the DMV of every state, at least here in the U.S., and even then it'll probably be relatively indirect like this: The EPA will issue a mandate, state Departments of Motor Vehicles will change the emissions testing requirements for individual vehicles, and when you go to get required emissions testing done, you find your vehicle doesn't pass, and you have to take it to the dealer to get 'updated' so it will pass. There'll probably also be a mass recall by Volkswagen (and from what I hear all other German automakers as well) as part of the settlement over this fiasco, and they'll remove/reprogram/update/whatever the 'device' that's doing the actual cheating, after which your vehicle passes inspection -- and probably, from what I hear, runs like shit out on the road. I'm just glad I don't own a German car anymore. I live in California, so whatever gets done about it by the government will be even worse here.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
Everything you mention is much better today than it was then. Our houses more efficient, our access to educational material is much greater and easier, and our health care capacities have improved many times over. I'm not suggesting this is the cause but I'm suggesting you failed to take that into account. There was no glory yesteryear. You're just lazier and feel more entitled.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Everything you mention is much better today than it was then. Our houses more efficient, our access to educational material is much greater and easier, and our health care capacities have improved many times over. I'm not suggesting this is the cause but I'm suggesting you failed to take that into account. There was no glory yesteryear. You're just lazier and feel more entitled.
So it is lazier to want to have the same style of living that my parents had on one salary working 40 hours a week instead of having a lower standard of living with two adults working 80 hours a week? With insurance eating up 20% of the paycheck and not being able to afford to go to the doctor because it is either pay insurance OR go to the doctor, not both and since not paying insurance is illegal now, I guess we have to pay insurance. Education costs many times what it used to and you are left with crippling debt after graduation. Maybe healthcare is 20% better than in the 60s, but it costs 10 times as much. Maybe education is 20% better than it was in the 60s, but it costs 10 times as much. Maybe housing is 20% better than it was in the 60s, but it costs 10 times as much. All of the improvements since the 60s seem to benefit somebody that is in an income bracket above the dual wage earner.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
the EPA regs also state that you may not include devices designed to defeat EPA testing
They don't - the device is included to pass, not defeat.
Also what really is "the device", because the thing that passes is the same "device" that would not pass.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
This sounds like the required Federal testing for students. The Feds give out the information that children must know, and so the administration teaches the children that information.
Are you familiar with the FAA written exams for private pilots? Passing score is 70% and 80% of the questions are known ahead of time. These questions are from exams from previous years, unchanged, and these exams are available for study and practice. The 20% of questions that are "new", largely old questions with the given numbers changed.
You have a better life than they did and work less hard as well. If you don't then you're probably doing something wrong - likely expecting more while doing less. Those aren't bad expectations they're just not realistic given how things have turned out.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
You can buy a drafty shack with piss poor efficiency for very low prices. I'm not suggesting you do but trying to equate today with yesterday isn't a very good idea considering how much has changed between now and then. Stop buying your kids iPads. Invest that in the stock market.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
because most people can't afford to keep cars of that age on the road at all
If we assume the average new car is $20,000 today, it works out to close to $450/month over four years. I don't know too many people with older cars that are having to spend anywhere near that much on maintenance.
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
Yes, I understand that VW cheated the regulators in terms of emissions. Fair enough. They cheated. They got caught. They should pay the price.
What I don't understand is end users being upset. In my life, I've purchased 5 cars to date (all new). Never has the emissions level of the vehicle been a factor, at any level, in my decision over which vehicle to purchase. Horsepower? Yes, Fuel efficiency? Yes. Cost? Yes. Emissions? Not even on the radar.
What am I missing?
linquendum tondere
From that I've read, it's actually a point. A badly maintained junker that's burning a quart of oil every 200 miles can actually pollute, per mile driven, equal to around 1k new cars that are properly compliant. For that matter, operating a push lawnmower for long enough to mow your yard will emit more than your car will all month.
Allowable NOx levels were cut by an order of magnitude last round, and in previous rounds as well.
I don't read AC A human right
Once again, listen carefully. You don't deter/avoid/eliminate malicious behaviour like this by creating more stringent testing methods. What you've here is decided to spend more money to create better compliance testing, in a world where those being tested (car makers) can profit by finding better ways to cheat.
Congrats, you're just going to breed better cheaters.
And it's obvious why: your playbook is public, theirs is not. They know how you're going to test them. You don't know how they are going to cheat. And we're back to security theatre.
The truly aggravating part is that there's a very easy way to deter this sort of thing: you make it simply destructive to their bottom line. If the penalty for cheating makes it not worthwhile cheating, then they won't cheat. I believe we've said it can be as high as $18 billion dollars. Good start. We're also talking about cars, engineering, safety concerns, false advertising, and stubbing the laws. Sounds like jail time to me -- for anyone responsible for the code, or for supervising the code, right up the chain.
That's why I don't commit significant crimes. It's not because I'm being tested. It's because I risk jail time.
The EPA (and some states like California) have requirements that must be met before cars can be sold. So it's not so much an issue that the buyers wouldn't have selected the vehicles because they were more polluting -- it's that the vehicles shouldn't have been available for sale *at* *all*.
And once they fix the problems, then the fuel efficiency will be lower, which is one of the factors that many buyers consider (and you mentioned yourself).
Another issue that I haven't heard discussed if the CAFE standards -- they're for whole fleets, not for individual cars. If VW was near the limit, then worse gas mileage could trigger a penalty based on the total number of cars sold.
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
I find it interesting that VW was forced to sell its 20% holdings in Susuki (anti trust thingy) for 3.9 billion dollars just hours before VW announced their wrong doing. The price would have been far lower hours later as vw stock price crashed.
Also the CEO of vw had a difficult challenge to his position previously that was due to be up for a board vote next week. He resigned.
Why do you find it odd? If the exhaust system leaks then not all the emissions will go out of the tailpipe. Tailpipe readings are useless if a large % of the exhaust are slip sliding away through a broken and leaky pipe.
Health-care and teaching appear much more expensive today because manufactured goods cost much less. If you look at where people are employed and making a good living, from 1960 to today, it quickly becomes obvious that certain sectors, like manufacturing, have became much smaller due to productivity improvements. Other sectors, like teaching and health care have not benefited from the productivity miracle the same extent. Additionally, certain intangible sectors of the economy that have went from non-existent in 1960 to a significant expenditure today. I'm thinking of finance, including credit cards and student loans, the software industry, and cell/internet companies. These companies have much higher worker-productivity levels than manufacturing has ever achieved. As a result, they employ very few people per profit developed.
Assume that all of the good paying jobs in the economy pay roughly the same amount, and the workers are distributed based on productivity and the realistic material needs/wants levels. It quickly becomes obvious that health care and teaching must be a larger portion of the economy in terms of workers, because we want health-care and education and therefore need the workers in these occupations. On the other hand, manufacturing, software and finance must be smaller portion of the economy in terms of workers, because they need fewer workers and there is an upper limit on the output we could want from these sectors. This macro-economic model applies at both large and small scales. If the overall economy has lots of workers in health-care, then the average person must be spending lots of money in that sector. The same applies to education.
To make it to the post-industrial utopia, we need to:
a) automate health-care and teaching in much the same way we have automated manufacturing, and
b) ensure that the people that lack high-income skill-sets remain useful and contributing members of the economy.
I tend to think America will achieve (a). (b) is tougher.
Hopefully the GOP will find a way to crush the dual EPA system. We have two, one in California and one at the federal level. The Federal clean air act prevents any other state from implementing yet another EPA.
There are no actual emissions standard in the USA. According to an article on Scientific American, every make and model must go through a negotiation process, in secret -- in other words, it’s likely another “pay for play” system that the progressive democrats have created.
There are hints that CARB dropped the NOx limit to 1/2 that of the EU when VW applied to bring the low end diesels to the US. Note that California hates diesels -- they have a consumption tax on gasoline making it $1 higher, per gallon, than the rest of the nation, and diesel fuel is exempt from at least some of these taxes. Every diesel sold in California is a huge loss of consumption tax revenue for the deep blue, progressive democrat controlled state.
Apparently VW's emissions team went to management and told them that the only way to meet the new standard was to install the expensive AdBlue / Urea injection system on the little 4 cylinder, E189 diesel engine. VW refused to authorize the addition of AdBlue technology, claiming that it would price the low cost diesels out of the market. VW's emissions engineers, stuck between the arbitrary, impossible to meet California demands and their employment with VW, appear to have flipped California the bird. The real question is -- given the same choice -- serving a foreign government, a state that is biased against your product, and your paycheck and employment, what is the decision? Quit or hope you don't get caught? Apparently they didn't quit. How many engineers have opened a contract to find impossible requirements?
The only correct reform is to dissolve California’s EPA and reform the Federal EPA so that they provide an emission limit by gas percentage, and publish it for every fuel type. Completely end the practice of secret deals by make and model. Allow the private sector to innovate certified, transponder based sniffers, perhaps at the Autozone or Pepboys level.
If California did lower the NOx levels for this set of cars to unreasonable levels, in order to increase tax revenue, CARB and CAL-EPA should be dissolved immediately for violating the US Constitutional restriction against taxation without representation, and VW should be unconditionally pardoned.
This sounds like the required Federal testing for students. The Feds give out the information that children must know, and so the administration teaches the children that information.
Are you familiar with the FAA written exams for private pilots? Passing score is 70% and 80% of the questions are known ahead of time. These questions are from exams from previous years, unchanged, and these exams are available for study and practice. The 20% of questions that are "new", largely old questions with the given numbers changed.
Yes, studied past exams and took the test and got a perfect score on the private pilot and then later on the instrument rating. Passed the checkride for Private Pilot first time. Took two tries on the Instrument rating. Turns out studying to the test doesn't correspond to doing well in real world scenarios.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
Everything you mention is much better today than it was then.
UE education being an obvious counterexample.