Hajj Pilgrimage Safety Challenges Crowd Simulator Technology

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Hajj Pilgrimage Safety Challenges Crowd Simulator Technology

Posted by samzenpus on Sunday September 27, 2015 @12:02PM from the stop-pushing dept.

agent elevator writes: In 2010, Saudi Arabia hosted an international design competition aimed at safely accommodating more pilgrims at Mecca's Grand Mosque. One of the participants told IEEE Spectrum that the crowd densities there (6 people per square meter) bogged down off-the-shelf software so badly that simulation run times were about 10 to 20 times slower than real time crowd movement. Nevertheless, he found some workarounds that gave designers a plan to double the Grand Mosque's peak visitor rate from 40,000 to 102,000 people per hour. Last week's stampede took place well away from the mosque, but signals sent to pilgrims telling them when to speed up or slow down could help prevent such a tragedy, the crowd simulation expert said. Other engineers are turning to fuzzy logic as way to predict how crowds will react in a panic.

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How about in English? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 12:12 · Score: 0

For the few remaining here.
How about the rest of the world? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 12:15 · Score: 1, Insightful

Can we simulate safely co-existing with a violent, barbaric religion that glamorizes death?
1. Re:How about the rest of the world? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 12:23 · Score: 0, Informative
  
  No need, we can just look to the history of Christian Church.
2. Re:How about the rest of the world? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 12:25 · Score: 1
  
  I don't live in history, I live in now. And right now, Saudi Arabia is the central point from where the mother lode of bad ideas emanates.
3. Re:How about the rest of the world? by PopeRatzo · 2015-09-27 13:18 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  I don't live in history
  Yeah, that's pretty clear.
  
  --
  You are welcome on my lawn.
4. Re:How about the rest of the world? by Darinbob · 2015-09-27 13:29 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Maybe, but it was a very short time ago when we still had Christian terrorism ("oh, but those weren't real Christians, they don't count!"). And it's not a big stretch of the imagination to see it again in the future. Anywhere there is an insurgency or civil war, you're often going to see one side claim that it's because of their religion, mostly because people can't separate ethnicity/culture from their religion.
5. Re:How about the rest of the world? by Opportunist · 2015-09-27 13:58 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  If people didn't have religion, they'd find some other excuse to bash each other's heads in. Do you really think any of those "leader" gives half a shit about Allah, God or some other sky daddy?
  
  --
  We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
6. Re:How about the rest of the world? by TWX · 2015-09-27 14:04 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  Not all nations have this problem. Indonesia has been cited as the largest Muslim nation, but its people don't seem to have been caught-up in either the religious fervor or in the stereotypes normally associated with Turk, Arab, or Persian people, or the rest of south Asia.
  
  On the other hand, I don't think that religious insanity is ever very far away from any group. We see it leak-out from time to time in the United States and in Europe even most people in these places feel they're beyond it. The Balkan Wars are proof enough of that, people that had been peaceful neighbors for years killed each other even though no one benefited from it. I have no doubt that there are otherwise-functional people that in the right circumstances would attempt to kill me over my religious views even though they stand nothing to lose through my views.
  
  That's my biggest problem with how the Wor on Terrah has been handled, instead of showing how base and petty and low these people are by simply trying them, convicting them, and throwing them in jail like any other murderers and thugs we elevate them by making their actions somehow different. Just throw 'em to the system like any other criminal and move on.
  
  --
  Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
7. Re:How about the rest of the world? by Darinbob · 2015-09-27 14:19 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  The problem with the war on terror, is that it made no attempt to resolve underlying issues.
8. Re:How about the rest of the world? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 14:34 · Score: 0
  
  which bombing?
9. Re:How about the rest of the world? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 14:36 · Score: 0
  
  Indonesia has its share of terrorism and yes they are caught up in it.
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Indonesia
10. Re:How about the rest of the world? by ganjadude · 2015-09-27 14:39 · Score: 0, Flamebait
  
  if you honestly believe they need to catch up, you are a sad sad person
  
  i would wager they killed more i nthe past week in the name of religion than "christians" did in the past decade in the name of religion
  
  --
  have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
11. Re:How about the rest of the world? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 14:45 · Score: 0
  
  Not all nations have this problem. Indonesia has been cited as the largest Muslim nation, but its people don't seem to have been caught-up in either the religious fervor or in the stereotypes normally associated with Turk, Arab, or Persian people, or the rest of south Asia.
  What about 2002 Bali bombings which killed 202 people, conducted by Jemaah Islamiyah
  Then there is 2005 Bali bombings
  The see also link shows five other terrorist attacks in Indonesia since the year 2000.
12. Re:How about the rest of the world? by ASDFnz · 2015-09-27 14:54 · Score: 1
  
  Need I remind you that Adolf Hitler was a self professed "God Fearing Christian". I feel sorry for you if your mind edits these things for you.
  (apologies to Goodwins law)
13. Re:How about the rest of the world? by AJWM · 2015-09-27 15:05 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  I can think of two major acts of genocide ordered by self professed "God Fearing Christians" in the past 100 years. At least one bombing comes to mind as well as a few mass shootings.
  Only one? Take a look at "The Troubles" in Northern Ireland and surroundings from about 1968 to 1998. (And related events in the centuries leading up to that.) Sure, there was a large political component too ... as there is in the Middle East. I'd wager that anyone old enough to remember those times was a lot more worried about IRA bombs then than Islamic ones today (and with good reason).
  
  --
  -- Alastair
14. Re:How about the rest of the world? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 15:26 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  McVeigh's motivation was political, not religious. And somehow it's easy to look at his cause and say: well, he did have a point!
15. Re:How about the rest of the world? by ASDFnz · 2015-09-27 15:33 · Score: 1, Offtopic
  
  McVeigh's motivation was political, not religious. And somehow it's easy to look at his cause and say: well, he did have a point!
  He said it was revenge for Waco and Ruby Ridge. Stop editing things.
16. Re:How about the rest of the world? by ScentCone · 2015-09-27 15:52 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  He said it was revenge for Waco and Ruby Ridge. Stop editing things.
  Right. He didn't like the political leanings and policies of the people who were involved in the deaths in those places. His revenge was against what he perceived as oppressors, not religious antagonists.
  
  --
  Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
17. Re:How about the rest of the world? by ScentCone · 2015-09-27 15:55 · Score: 1
  
  Need I remind you that Adolf Hitler was a self professed "God Fearing Christian". I feel sorry for you if your mind edits these things for you.
  You're the one re-imaging history to suit your agenda. Hitler didn't march across Europe in the name of Christianity. And his party singled out the Jews as a convenient ethic group on which to blame Germany's inability to recover gracefully from the previous time they'd gone to war with their neighbors.
  
  --
  Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
18. Re:How about the rest of the world? by drinkypoo · 2015-09-27 15:57 · Score: 1
  
  Do you really think any of those "leader" gives half a shit about Allah, God or some other sky daddy?
  Yes, some of them clearly do. That's why theocracy is so dangerous. Politicians who believe their own bullshit? That's terrifying. And so it goes.
  
  --
  "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
19. Re:How about the rest of the world? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 15:59 · Score: 0
  
  Correct, and the IRA was funded and supported by Irish Americans. Peace only came when US funding was cut off after 9/11.
  in many ways, 9/11 was just dessert for Americas long time policy of supporting terrorists, and supplying them.
20. Re:How about the rest of the world? by sycodon · 2015-09-27 15:59 · Score: 1, Offtopic
  
  Atheists murdered about 100 million people in the 20th century, give a take 10 million of so.
  Lenin, Stalin, Mao, the usual crowd.
  
  --
  When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
21. Re:How about the rest of the world? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 16:04 · Score: 1
  
  Did they do it in the name of atheism, or in the name of their totalitarian cults of personality and communism?
22. Re:How about the rest of the world? by unixisc · 2015-09-27 16:06 · Score: 1
  
  Can we simulate safely co-existing with a violent, barbaric religion that glamorizes death?
  In principle, I agree w/ your characterization about Islam/Muslims, but since this story is about Mecca - a city where ONLY Muzzies are allowed to go, the simulation wouldn't be one of co-existence, but rather, crowd flows.
  In truth, the Saudi authorities are morons. Hajj is something Muslims can do any time of the year, not just during the eids, and they have a high traffic throughout. Yet, there have been thousands of deaths due to stampedes, despite the Muzzies having a practice at this for some 1300 years. This doesn't look like something that an engineering solution can fix. Also, bida - or innovation - is banned in Islam, so even if people came up w/ a solution, don't expect it to be adapted by the Saudi authorities.
23. Re:How about the rest of the world? by unixisc · 2015-09-27 16:14 · Score: 1
  
  Indonesia doesn't have Islamic holy sites like Mecca, Medina, Najaf, Karbala, Qum, Mashed. All Muslims aren't required to go to Indonesia. They are expected to visit Mecca at least once in their lifetime.
24. Re:How about the rest of the world? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 16:18 · Score: 0
  
  > Can we simulate safely co-existing with a violent, barbaric religion that glamorizes death?
  Like Christianity's praise for martyrdom & viewing it as compelling evidence of sainthood?
  Yahweh was a nasty, psychopathic volcano god whose main hobby was apparently smiting both his enemies and followers. Because, you know, the best way to find out whether someone is REALLY your friend & ally is to kill their children in gruesome ways and pretty much destroy their lives.
25. Re: How about the rest of the world? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 16:23 · Score: 0
  
  And that excuses Muslim barbarism... Why?
  Fuck you.
26. Re:How about the rest of the world? by ASDFnz · 2015-09-27 16:36 · Score: 0
  
  He said it was revenge for Waco and Ruby Ridge. Stop editing things.
  Right. He didn't like the political leanings and policies of the people who were involved in the deaths in those places. His revenge was against what he perceived as oppressors, not religious antagonists.
  edit edit edit edit.
27. Re:How about the rest of the world? by ASDFnz · 2015-09-27 16:41 · Score: 1
  
  More edits.
  Have you read Mein Kampf? I have (unfortunately, it was for a paper). Here is a copy in English http://www.greatwar.nl/books/m..., do a search for God.
  Find out what actually went on, not the edited history by the victors.
28. Re:How about the rest of the world? by TapeCutter · 2015-09-27 16:41 · Score: 1
  
  Religion binds tribes together. When tribes go to war, religious alliances will be called on.
  
  --
  And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
29. Re:How about the rest of the world? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 18:11 · Score: 0
  
  Even if you look at the history of Christian Church, there is a clear fact: It didn't expand by doing war. No christian holy book treats "infidels" as enemies, just as disgraced who need help, whereas Islam is based upon fighting against infidels and stoning muslims who wish to quit. And that's why many muslims are kept into faith. Their fear from other muslims is so deeply inserted into their brains that they are unable to consider quitting.
30. Re: How about the rest of the world? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 19:37 · Score: 1
  
  Then you really need to read more. Look up "the Troubles" in Northern Ireland for Christian on Christian terrorism.
  Or the crusades for Christian attacks on Muslims.
  Or the KKK for Christian on anyone that isn't a white Christian...
  Terrorism isn't new, and it isn't exclusively Muslims that do it.
31. Re:How about the rest of the world? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 19:56 · Score: 0
  
  Need I remind you that Adolf Hitler was a self professed "God Fearing Christian". I feel sorry for you if your mind edits these things for you.
  (apologies to Goodwins law)
  20 million russians died in WW2. What's your point jack off?
32. Re:How about the rest of the world? by Barsteward · 2015-09-27 20:48 · Score: 1
  
  doing in the Jews is a thousand year old Catholic past time and hitler and his crew were catholics. if it was just "economic" reasons, they'd have just deported them.
  
  --
  "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
33. Re:How about the rest of the world? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 20:52 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  It is amazon how soon we forget.
  But we have you to re-kindle our memories.
34. Re:How about the rest of the world? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 20:58 · Score: 0
  
  The problem is all those instances (most, by my estimation) in which there is no 'leader' responsible. At these times the religious (of all stripes) are more than happy to turn judgment over to forces beyond their comprehension. Typically this is either utter chaos (i.e. a 'stampede' crushing hundreds of people) or sinister manipulators hiding in caves/bunkers/skyscrapers somewhere.
35. Re:How about the rest of the world? by Barsteward · 2015-09-27 21:01 · Score: 2
  
  they did it more subtly by calling people heretics and hanging them, witch hunting, inquisitions, stoning to death, death for apostasy etc etc.
  
  --
  "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
36. Re:How about the rest of the world? by umghhh · 2015-09-27 21:28 · Score: 1
  
  And he did not mind Islam at all
37. Re:How about the rest of the world? by umghhh · 2015-09-27 21:31 · Score: 1
  
  I see leaving it like this in the context of this discussion is no good.
  The little painter from Austria could not care less about Muslim, Christian or any other faith - he was interested in two things: promoting his sick ideas, among which was killing all the Jews and other unfortunate beings) as well as holding on to power. So indeed he is not a good example of a crusader.
38. Re:How about the rest of the world? by umghhh · 2015-09-27 21:36 · Score: 1
  
  Indeed once a system is established in which any idea is shown as good there is always a chance a maniac who actually believes all the nonsense get high in the ranks and eventually becomes the great leader. The problem with this is also that human societies do not work very well without great ideas and great leaders and at the same time we always have a problem when a great leader decides to do evil things. This is so since human population density grew to a point when separate tribes were constantly in danger of being attacked by their neighbors (as opposed to being attacked from time to time). This induced complex social structures and a need for a bureaucracy for peace times and strong leadership for crisis times including war.
39. Re:How about the rest of the world? by fnj · 2015-09-27 22:14 · Score: 2
  
  Hitler was baptised and confirmed a Catholic. Some consider that Christian, and some don't. However, he was not religiously driven. In adulthood he was disainful of Christianity. Only a mental defective would see any compatibility between Hitler's philosophy with the teachings of Jesus. The most you can say is that Hitler never publicly and formally repudiated the Church, nor was he excommunicated (which latter is itself damning, but off point).
  Goebbels wrote that Hitler "hates Christianity, because it has crippled all that is noble in humanity." Scholars agree that Hitler was anti-Christian. But he was opportunistic and pragmatic, and took care never to be seen as atheistic.
  Alfred Rosenberg, the appointed Nazi ideologist, rejected and scorned Christianity and embraced paganism and mysticism. He planned that the Bible would be banned and replaced on the altars with Mein Kampf, and the cross replaced with the swastika. A National Reich Church of Germany would take over all churches.
  Research with primary sources is good. Now learn to tell the difference between opportunism and facile writing, and actual motivation and conduct.
40. Re:How about the rest of the world? by AmiMoJo · 2015-09-27 23:45 · Score: 1
  
  Name one secular state that is involved in a war. Maybe France, they get involved in Syria a little bit.
  On the other hand, religious states are at war all the time, and use religion to justify bigotry and internal conflicts.
  I'm not saying all war would end if the world became secular, but it would certainly be less violent. And yes, those leaders do care about their deities, they are what give them moral permission to do terrible things that their humanity tells them are wrong.
  
  --
  const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
  SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
41. Re:How about the rest of the world? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 23:54 · Score: 1
  
  I can think of two major acts of genocide ordered by self professed "God Fearing Christians" in the past 100 years. At least one bombing comes to mind as well as a few mass shootings.
  Only one? Take a look at "The Troubles" in Northern Ireland and surroundings from about 1968 to 1998. (And related events in the centuries leading up to that.) Sure, there was a large political component too ... as there is in the Middle East. I'd wager that anyone old enough to remember those times was a lot more worried about IRA bombs then than Islamic ones today (and with good reason).
  Simplistic twaddle. The Northern Irish troubles were about nationalism, not Christianity. Small-o orthodox Christianity has no 'policy' position on the British-vs-Irish ownership of Northern Ireland.
42. Re:How about the rest of the world? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-28 00:05 · Score: 1
  
  Two words: East Timor.
43. Re:How about the rest of the world? by ScentCone · 2015-09-28 00:21 · Score: 2
  
  edit edit edit edit
  Interesting how you cannot actually address the substance of the matter, but only stamp your feet and say that word. Typical cowardly ad hominem argument, trying to impune the motive of the person to whom you're responding, instead of addressing the matter directly.
  
  We have plenty of evidence that his attacks were essentially political. Among other things, because he SAID SO. You are trying to imply that it was a "Christian" attack, but of course you cannot actually back that up, and so you're attacking the people who provide information that goes against your phony narrative. Why are you afraid of the facts?
  
  --
  Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
44. Re:How about the rest of the world? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-28 00:25 · Score: 0
  
  Nice try. Was Jesus a mass murderer? Was Jesus a multiple rapist? Mohammed was both, as documented by muslims for the past 1400 years.
  Anything to say now? You obviously know nothing about Islam.
45. Re:How about the rest of the world? by Greystripe · 2015-09-28 00:43 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  Those cults of personality and communism are manifestations of atheism. Therefore yes they did kill in the name of atheism, they just didn't realize it.
46. Re: How about the rest of the world? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-28 01:39 · Score: 0
  
  impugn.
47. Re:How about the rest of the world? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-28 01:52 · Score: 1
  
  No we just need to look at the history of humanity. Humans do not need the crux of religion to kill, they do it naturally on their own. Religions have been a civilizing influence on the world. The bring different peoples together under one banner / god / greed. Sure when they clash with another group with a different banner / god / creed there can be open war, but amongst your cohesive group there can be peace. The alternative is of coarse to have hundreds on individual enclaves not united under religion but killing none the less.
  You will never get rid of hatred and killing. It is part of humanity. So why try. Humans are animals. Do animals live peacefully amongst themselves? No they compete for food and mates. People are not different and never will be. We just be happy that inevitably the strongest will rise to the top and continue the human race?
  Rather than preying for peace. Prey to vanquish your enemy and take his wife.
48. Re:How about the rest of the world? by wyHunter · 2015-09-28 01:54 · Score: 1
  
  This had more to do with politics than religion.
49. Re:How about the rest of the world? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-28 02:45 · Score: 0
  
  It always does.
50. Re:How about the rest of the world? by Opportunist · 2015-09-28 03:46 · Score: 1
  
  So, the religion behind the NATO is...?
  
  --
  We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
51. Re:How about the rest of the world? by Opportunist · 2015-09-28 03:47 · Score: 1
  
  Nominally, the US is secular. Doesn't really look that way with politicians invoking God in every speech, but on paper it is.
  
  --
  We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
52. Re:How about the rest of the world? by AmiMoJo · 2015-09-28 04:12 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  It's impossible to be elected to high office if you are not a Christian. There is also scary stuff like the Pledge of Allegiance which includes the phrase "one nation under God" and is forced on children. It's a religious country, even if there is officially separation between church and state.
  
  --
  const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
  SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
53. Re:How about the rest of the world? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-28 04:36 · Score: 1
  
  Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City bombing.
  Tsk, tsk, tsk. Just a quick look at wiki reveals this:
  
  McVeigh was raised Roman Catholic. During his childhood, he and his father attended Mass regularly. McVeigh was confirmed at the Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York, in 1985. In a 1996 interview, McVeigh professed belief in "a God", although he said he had "sort of lost touch with" Catholicism and "I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs." In McVeigh's biography American Terrorist, released in 2002, he stated that he did not believe in a hell and that science is his religion. In June 2001, a day before the execution, McVeigh wrote a letter to the Buffalo News identifying himself as agnostic.
  Look, I realize that this is kind of a popular meme going around that McVeigh was a "Christian terrorist", but I was hoping that the readers of /. would actually bother doing some basic fact checking before spewing this kind of misinformation. I mean, hell, it was the very first link that came up in my google search. You do know how to use google, right? Right?
54. Re: How about the rest of the world? by ScentCone · 2015-09-28 04:47 · Score: 1
  
  Impugn? I'm not impugning a thing. I'm pointing out that the guy who - without any constructive commentary about the substance of the matter - just claims that everyone is "editing" history is an intellectual coward, and using one of the more familiar tactics of lazy ad hominem rhetoric in order to avoid confirming (through actually attempting to address the matter at hand and proving his point, if there is one) that he's a fool.
  
  --
  Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
55. Re:How about the rest of the world? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-28 04:47 · Score: 0
  
  ...The bring different peoples together under one banner / god / greed....Rather than preying for peace. Prey to vanquish your enemy and take his wife.
  Even with the misspellings, your comments seem quite apropos. Was that intentional?
56. Re: How about the rest of the world? by Coren22 · 2015-09-28 04:53 · Score: 1
  
  Um, perhaps you need to reread some history? The Crusades were in response to Muslim violence.
  
  --
  APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
57. Re:How about the rest of the world? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-28 04:54 · Score: 0
  
  Like Christianity's praise for martyrdom & viewing it as compelling evidence of sainthood?
  Uh, if I'm not mistaken, Christianity's reverence for saints has to do with dying because you refuse to compromise your faith, not killing yourself and taking as many "infidels" as possible along for the ride. That, to my mind, is a huge difference.
58. Re:How about the rest of the world? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-28 05:48 · Score: 0
  
  Nationalism. Or Mammon might be a better fit.
59. Re:How about the rest of the world? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-28 06:00 · Score: 1
  
  I suppose the fact the a lot of the Islamic terrorists have said they do what they do as a response to Western interference in their countries and politics, doesn't weigh very much in your opinion?
  People these days don't bother to ask what the motivation was if they happen to be from a certain religion - they just assume it's because of the religion (whether they are right or not).
  Yet as soon as we bring up the folk in our own countries doing bad stuff, their religion is just a miscellaneous fact that had no bearing on the act of violence?
  When you stop engaging your brain in this way, all you are doing is confirming your bias with your own bias. Quite sad to see in otherwise intelligent and well-spoken people.
60. Re:How about the rest of the world? by ganjadude · 2015-09-28 06:39 · Score: 1
  
  he didnt do it in the name of religion. that is the difference though
  
  --
  have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
61. Re:How about the rest of the world? by david_thornley · 2015-09-28 08:58 · Score: 1
  
  Lots of Muslim terrorism is political, not religious. If you're going to discount McVeigh because his bombing was political, you're going to have to go through an awful lot of Muslim actions to separate out the political from the religious (and they're not always easy to tell apart).
  
  --
  "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
62. Re: How about the rest of the world? by david_thornley · 2015-09-28 09:01 · Score: 1
  
  The "Crusades" were several historical events (note the plural) over quite a long time, and happened for various causes, including naked aggression.
  
  --
  "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
63. Re:How about the rest of the world? by david_thornley · 2015-09-28 09:04 · Score: 1
  
  Christianity didn't expand by fighting wars? It certainly did. For example, the Americas are generally Christian, and that came about through the conquest of the natives rather than peaceful conversion.
  
  --
  "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
64. Re:How about the rest of the world? by mister_playboy · 2015-09-28 09:12 · Score: 1
  
  I mean, hell, it was the very first link that came up in my google search. You do know how to use google, right? Right?
  The much more terrifying thought is that these other posters did search Google and posted accordingly. Don't ignore the power of search bubbles and individualized results.
  Not everyone is interested in being part of the "reality-based community". :P
  
  --
  Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law ::: Love is the law, love under will
65. Re:How about the rest of the world? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-28 11:55 · Score: 0
  
  I can think of two major acts of genocide ordered by self professed "God Fearing Christians" in the past 100 years. At least one bombing comes to mind as well as a few mass shootings.
  Only one? Take a look at "The Troubles" in Northern Ireland and surroundings from about 1968 to 1998. (And related events in the centuries leading up to that.) Sure, there was a large political component too ... as there is in the Middle East. I'd wager that anyone old enough to remember those times was a lot more worried about IRA bombs then than Islamic ones today (and with good reason).
  The British first invaded in 1177. France and England have/were going at it since 1066 (Norman conquest). Then there's the Hundred Year' War (1337-1453) between France, the Low Countries, England, Spain.
  The Catholic/Protestant split didn't occur until about 1517 (Martin Luther).
  As Donald Kagan wrote in _On the Original of War_: "... Thucydides found that people go to war out of 'honor, fear, and interest [profit]'."
66. Re:How about the rest of the world? by tehcyder · 2015-09-28 22:54 · Score: 1
  
  Like Christianity's praise for martyrdom & viewing it as compelling evidence of sainthood?
  Uh, if I'm not mistaken, Christianity's reverence for saints has to do with dying because you refuse to compromise your faith, not killing yourself and taking as many "infidels" as possible along for the ride. That, to my mind, is a huge difference.
  If you have a choice between being killed and compromising your faith, by refusing to compromise your faith you are effectively committing suicide.
  The difference is that you're not taking anyone with you, but it's not that dissimilar otherwise. You choose death because you believe in some sort of glorious Afterlife.
  
  --
  To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Assumptions by MrLogic17 · 2015-09-27 12:22 · Score: 4, Interesting

The premise behind these simulations is that giving directions to crowds will improve flow of people.
It's a mighty big assumption that the folks in the crowds would follow a signal to "slow down". Between the culture in general (ever see a tidy British style queue in the middle east?), and the general human dynamics of large crowds of people, I don't have much hope of this being a success.
Perhaps a better solution would be to increase the time window for this event- spread the crowd over a few months instead of a few days.
1. Re:Assumptions by jrumney · 2015-09-27 13:58 · Score: 1
  
  You have two pipes of equal size at full capacity joining at right angles, and flowing into a third pipe of the same capacity as each of those pipes alone. Is encouraging the water to slow down as it approaches the intersection going to eliminate all the turbulence at the intersection even if the attempt to slow it down is successful?
2. Re:Assumptions by TWX · 2015-09-27 14:07 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Perhaps a better solution would be to increase the time window for this event- spread the crowd over a few months instead of a few days.
  You're trying to find a logical solution to a religious problem. That works so rarely that people are almost aghast when a Sikh removes his turban and uses it to stop the bleeding from a bullet wound on a child.
  
  --
  Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
3. Re:Assumptions by fustakrakich · 2015-09-27 15:11 · Score: 1
  
  The better solution is to give people enough space to move freely. It's those damn barriers that cause the problems. Restrict the flow and there's gonna be trouble. This latest event only confirms the obvious. It's just another rerun.
  
  --
  “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
4. Re:Assumptions by quantaman · 2015-09-27 15:22 · Score: 1
  
  The premise behind these simulations is that giving directions to crowds will improve flow of people.
  It's a mighty big assumption that the folks in the crowds would follow a signal to "slow down". Between the culture in general (ever see a tidy British style queue in the middle east?), and the general human dynamics of large crowds of people, I don't have much hope of this being a success.
  Perhaps a better solution would be to increase the time window for this event- spread the crowd over a few months instead of a few days.
  I actually think that's a fairly good assumption. It might not stop a stampede in progress but the vast majority of the crowd is just going with the flow and doesn't really know what's going on. The activity of the crowd is determined by a very weak signal, if you can give them a strong signal instead they'll probably follow it.
  Imagine you have a bunch of giant LED billboards overhead showing everyone in the crowd "SLOW DOWN" or "STOP" or "TURN RIGHT AT 42nd STREET". My guess is people are going to assume the billboards know what they're talking about and follow directions.
  Of course if someone hacks the messaging system you now have the potential for mass casualties. I hope they're taking that into account.
  
  --
  I stole this Sig
5. Re:Assumptions by ScentCone · 2015-09-27 15:58 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  Perhaps a better solution would be to increase the time window for this event- spread the crowd over a few months instead of a few days.
  Perhaps a better solution would be to try to cure large populations of magical thinking so that they no longer feel the need to conduct silly medieval rituals in order to please an imaginary deity.
  
  --
  Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
6. Re:Assumptions by KGIII · 2015-09-27 16:13 · Score: 1
  
  They should have hired professional pedestrian traffic modelers. The industry is fairly mature now. More people should take advantage of this.
  
  --
  "So long and thanks for all the fish."
7. Re:Assumptions by TapeCutter · 2015-09-27 16:41 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  The better solution is to give people enough space to move freely.
  Of course if you can solve the space problem it no longer exists, but unless you can pull a tardis out of your arse there are many situations where "more space" is simply not an option. The religious festival in Mecca is a prime example, in particular, the part where the pilgrim is required to walk around (what looks like) a huge stone box three times and throw pebbles at the devil (the stone box). The 'box' is already in the middle of large open area, but there are only so many people who can stand within pebble throwing distance at one time.
  
  When too many people in one place have too much freedom of movement, there is nothing to dampen that movement should everyone move in the same direction for some reason (eg: band appears on stage, some idiot drops some firecrackers, rubbish bin catches fire, etc) Correctly placed barriers can significantly REDUCE the chance of "crowd crush" and stampedes, it's a common and well-understood technique that is often used to control "mosh pits" at large concerts and similar events.
  
  The basic principle is no different to putting baffles in a petrol tanker truck to stop it sloshing about uncontrollably and derailing the truck, a crowd has a "pressure" that is related to it's density, volume, and overall direction of motion. A larger space can build up much higher "spot" pressures than a small space with the same density and motion. As I understand the problem in TFA, the sheer number of people makes it impossible/expensive to simulate the effect of crowd control measures in real time. However the basic principles of "crowd baffles" are well understood and have significantly reduced the likelihood of tragedy over the last few decades that they have been in use. If you find that hard to believe, try obtaining public liability insurance for a large event without having a credible crowd control plan.
  
  --
  And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
8. Re:Assumptions by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 16:47 · Score: 0
  
  IAAFD, and pipes... don't have a capacity.
9. Re:Assumptions by gl4ss · 2015-09-27 20:24 · Score: 1
  
  putting up red lights could CAUSE a stampede. it would make the people at the back think that they might not make if they don't push more.
  people are idiots, basically.
  
  --
  world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
10. Re:Assumptions by An+dochasac · 2015-09-28 01:21 · Score: 1
  
  Correctly placed barriers can significantly REDUCE the chance of "crowd crush" and stampedes, it's a common and well-understood technique that is often used to control "mosh pits" at large concerts and similar events. The basic principle is no different to putting baffles in a petrol tanker truck to stop it sloshing about uncontrollably and derailing the truck, a crowd has a "pressure" that is related to it's density, volume, and overall direction of motion. A larger space can build up much higher "spot" pressures than a small space with the same density and motion. As I understand the problem in TFA, the sheer number of people makes it impossible/expensive to simulate the effect of crowd control measures in real time. However the basic principles of "crowd baffles" are well understood and have significantly reduced the likelihood of tragedy over the last few decades that they have been in use. If you find that hard to believe, try obtaining public liability insurance for a large event without having a credible crowd control plan.
  The stoning columns probably served this purpose until they were replaced with walls to prevent pilgrims from stoning other pilgrims. Essentially they replaced the pillar "baffles" with a solid barrier. The solution to the stray stone problem may have led to the stampede deaths.
11. Re:Assumptions by Hognoxious · 2015-09-28 01:22 · Score: 1
  
  The 'box' is already in the middle of large open area, but there are only so many people who can stand within pebble throwing distance at one time.
  
  Do the rules state that the pebbles have to be thrown by hand? I see a business opportunity involving catapults here.
  
  --
  Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
12. Re:Assumptions by An+dochasac · 2015-09-28 02:57 · Score: 1
  
  The premise behind these simulations is that giving directions to crowds will improve flow of people.
  It's a mighty big assumption that the folks in the crowds would follow a signal to "slow down". Between the culture in general (ever see a tidy British style queue in the middle east?), and the general human dynamics of large crowds of people, I don't have much hope of this being a success...
  ...The activity of the crowd is determined by a very weak signal, if you can give them a strong signal instead they'll probably follow it.
  Imagine you have a bunch of giant LED billboards overhead showing everyone in the crowd "SLOW DOWN" or "STOP" or "TURN RIGHT AT 42nd STREET".
  A baffle sends a strong signal that is impossible to ignore. Cylindrical pillars seem to be among the most efficient at transmitting this signal in the right directions through the crowd so that it slows them in time to prevent crush injuries without panicking anyone into a stampede. Forget cultural stereotypes and objective cultural differences, at this scale all Muslims, Christians, Soccer fans, British Royals, bipeds, quadrapeds... behave as particles in a non-Newtonian fluid. If these particles encounter a barrier faster than the signal from the barrier can propagate against the flow of the fluid, you get a shock-wave not unlike a sonic boom.
13. Re:Assumptions by tlhIngan · 2015-09-28 04:06 · Score: 1
  
  The premise behind these simulations is that giving directions to crowds will improve flow of people.
  It's a mighty big assumption that the folks in the crowds would follow a signal to "slow down". Between the culture in general (ever see a tidy British style queue in the middle east?), and the general human dynamics of large crowds of people, I don't have much hope of this being a success.
  Perhaps a better solution would be to increase the time window for this event- spread the crowd over a few months instead of a few days.
  Well, the problem is you can't increase the duration or space (both are non-infinite and solutions only work until you run into limits).
  You CAN however influence how people move. If you want people to move slower, you can visibly narrow their path or put obstacles in the way. (Moving the curbs closer together is often used as a traffic calming measure - drivers inevitably slow down when they feel the road is narrowing)
  The other thing is barriers - you use the barriers to help keep the flow more orderly. Without them people are going to randomly enter the area and exit from all sorts of directions. A barrier as well as clearly delineated entrance and exits mean you can get the flow to behave the way you want.
  It's non-obvious, but it does work. And these days, if you want to slow down the flow, all you need to do is send a few texts. There are enough "zombie walkers" (people who text and walk with their eyes glued to their phones) that sending notifications or texts would probably cause them to stop and impede flow briefly.
Darwin Award front-runner by turkeydance · 2015-09-27 12:29 · Score: 4, Funny

FTW!
Why bother? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 12:37 · Score: 2, Insightful

Didn't Allah will those people to get trampled? Why would they contradict Allah's will?
1. Re:Why bother? by unixisc · 2015-09-27 16:17 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  This actually deserves to be modded up - b'cos Muslims have this concept of 'inshallah' - as allah wills - whereby anything bad that happens to them is said to be the will of allah, and is not to be questioned. In fact, I think somewhere in the 90s, after such a stampede, a Saudi minister/royal family member made that very comment - that the deaths were the will of allah. So AC's post, while seemingly tasteless, is hardly inappropriate here.
2. Re:Why bother? by gl4ss · 2015-09-27 18:40 · Score: 1
  
  this time they said that it was fate.
  well, it was fate that the people were unable to follow instructions I suppose.
  
  --
  world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
3. Re:Why bother? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 23:25 · Score: 0
  
  It's a matter of submission, not questioning. If you are not questioning everything, you have no mind. If you are not submitting to things outside your control you have no heart.
  It's better to remain ignorant of things we disagree with, it makes killing easier to justify. Of course, a desert is the wrong setting to propose an unalienable right to life. But it's not too far behind planned parenthood's philosophy of savagery.
4. Re:Why bother? by wbr1 · 2015-09-27 23:28 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  This is not a Muslim concept. Christians to often say things such as "god moves in mysterious ways" or "god decided it was their time". It is simply a form of dissociation from the negative emotions generated from such an event. Be those emotions, pain, horror, shame, guilt, etc...lay them at Alah, God, Jesus, the saviors feet.
  In many ways it is an abrogation of personal responsibility, and a key problem with many religions, but a part of human nature it would seem.
  
  --
  Silence is a state of mime.
5. Re:Why bother? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-28 12:11 · Score: 0
  
  This is not a Muslim concept. Christians to often say things such as "god moves in mysterious ways" or "god decided it was their time".
  It depends on the Christianity: I wouldn't be surprised if those sentiments are more prevalent in Protestant areas.
  Of course there's always the proverbial left-half of the bell curve to deal with: the (Catholic) Church has been preaching against witchcraft (i.e., they don't exist) and magic and such for over a thousand years, and yet the thinking still exists:
  * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Frankfurt
  * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Paderborn
  You can try to educate people, but there will also be individuals that can't grasp the workings of the universe, and so will need a "crutch".
Full automation not always the answer by dbIII · 2015-09-27 12:39 · Score: 1

Automation is not always the answer - some people from all nations ignore traffic signals if they cannot see an immediate reason for them (eg. people driving through a red light at midnight when there is no traffic) but are less likely to ignore a direction from someone in a uniform. If the person in uniform then gets their directions from those with a full overview they perform the function of the signals but are more likely yo be obeyed.
Notice how many events have security guys to discourage people from climbing onto a stage instead of just signs?
1. Re:Full automation not always the answer by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 13:04 · Score: 0
  
  Notice how many events have security guys to discourage people from climbing onto a stage instead of just signs?
  Those security guys probably also do a better job at dealing with the people who do try to climb onto a stage better than the signs would.
2. Re:Full automation not always the answer by Junta · 2015-09-27 13:16 · Score: 2
  
  Note that here the concept is that controlling the flow of the crowd is the automation piece. Whether you enact it through 'traffic signals', alerts to mobile devices, or send the data to uniformed officers to tell them how to direct traffic, the core is the automation piece here. An individual human at a given point does not have the awareness of the bigger picture to make the correct decision on how to flow traffic. So the discussion of having a human versus a signal light or other mechanism is not pertinent to the discussion at hand.
  But going back to ignoring signals, this is actually a case where they would likely be followed. There's no pressing reason to ignore the directions (if it is going well) and while a few might opt to ignore it if they were alone, we are talking about a very crowded scenario. Here if even if only 30% of people would honor the signs individually, the entire crowd would probably honor the signs seeing such a high volume of people doing so. If it were midnight and someone who would run it pulls up next to someone who is stopped, they'd probably at least wait a short while. Then there's the case where they pull up behind, then they are *really* unlikely to run the red (basically going off the road or something similarly abnormal), and that would probably be the situation in a crowded environment given even a relative few honoring the signals.
  
  --
  XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
3. Re:Full automation not always the answer by TWX · 2015-09-27 14:08 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  Well, when you've got a Five Man Electrical Band to protect, a sign obviously isn't going to cut it...
  
  --
  Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
4. Re:Full automation not always the answer by dbIII · 2015-09-27 15:11 · Score: 1
  
  the core is the automation piece here
  The point is that full automation has a drawback over more than just signals in situations like this. Maybe I should have put it in bold, all caps, red, with an old BLINK tag?
  
  this is actually a case where they would likely be followed
  It has been reported that they were not followed in this case. Perhaps the report is not correct and it is blame shifting, but assuming it is correct the signals were not enough.
5. Re:Full automation not always the answer by KGIII · 2015-09-27 16:16 · Score: 1
  
  These days you could drive to see them in a Tesla. If, you know, they existed.
  Just a bit of FYI: I'm alive and doing fine. Thanks.
  
  --
  "So long and thanks for all the fish."
6. Re:Full automation not always the answer by KGIII · 2015-09-27 16:26 · Score: 2
  
  Umm... Assuming a proper emergency plan is in place (a big assumption) and that it is followed you certainly can have someone directing without knowing the larger events - so long as they all follow a set of rules for a given situation. Whilst my career was largely based on vehicular traffic we did expand into pedestrian traffic modeling as well - compute resources advanced and made this realistic. So, while it's an appeal to authority I do submit that I am an authority. Albeit a tired one.
  Basically, you have trained staff with a set of criteria - if this happens direct traffic this way and in this manner. If shit hits the fan don't run for the hills, direct traffic towards unknown emergency exits or ignored emergency exits.
  Now, in a true catastrophe this isn't going to be 100% effective - it never is. There is nothing to be done about that. However, proper policies and throughput designs can, and has, saved lives in the exact situation you seem to be discounting. If the event staff know how to manage traffic and where to direct it then they needn't know the entire scope of the disaster to affect the outcome.
  I'm tired so, please, forgive me for being short. Hopefully that is neither condescending nor inarticulate.
  
  --
  "So long and thanks for all the fish."
7. Re:Full automation not always the answer by Hognoxious · 2015-09-27 21:17 · Score: 1
  
  An individual human at a given point does not have the awareness of the bigger picture to make the correct decision on how to flow traffic. So the discussion of having a human versus a signal light or other mechanism is not pertinent to the discussion at hand.
  Yeah, because there's absolutely no way at all an agent on the ground could be receiving information & instructions from a place - let's hypothetically call it an "in the middle bossing booth". Now if someone invented a kind of portable wireless set that would change things, but until the magical strolly-speaky comes along it's either trumpets or flags.
  How about pigeons?
  
  --
  Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Idiots by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 12:40 · Score: 0, Troll

"Despite efforts to make the hajj safer, another pilgrimage ... of pilgrims have raised concerns about safety measures. ... most victims had ignored the allocated time slot for their groups"
Software can't save idiots from their own undoing. Must be god's will haha
1. Re:Idiots by guruevi · 2015-09-27 13:49 · Score: 0
  
  Idiocy and religion correlate.
  
  --
  Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
2. Re:Idiots by unixisc · 2015-09-27 16:19 · Score: 1
  
  This has been going on for decades. One doesn't need computers, or queueing theories, or simulators to simply organize people so that stampedes don't happen. All that's needed is appropriate policing, something the Saudis don't seem interested in doing.
I haven't heard fuzz logic mentioned... by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 12:41 · Score: 1

in nearly two decades! Talk about dusting off an old scam. Next we're going to hear about an "expert system."
1. Re:I haven't heard fuzz logic mentioned... by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 13:11 · Score: 0
  
  Make it 3D printed in a private space colony and you've got your current buzzwords!
2. Re:I haven't heard fuzz logic mentioned... by Opportunist · 2015-09-27 14:05 · Score: 1
  
  We're talking about a country with a legal and social model more fitting to medieval times and you complain about them being two decades behind? By their standards that's bleeding edge, bordering on heresy.
  
  --
  We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
3. Re:I haven't heard fuzz logic mentioned... by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 14:33 · Score: 0
  
  You haven't heard it because it has become part of the normal control theory and applications, the very same way "expert systems" and "neural nets" have become part of the "normal". Machine vision backed neural net classifiers were grading chicken meat already 20 years ago at full line speed, and the fuzzy control systems were working inside washing machines and vacuum cleaners.
People movers by tomhath · 2015-09-27 12:45 · Score: 2

Have them all stand still on a moving track.
1. Re: People movers by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 12:59 · Score: 0
  
  >expecting third worlders to stand still
  It's like asking a dog to stop barking
So basically by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 13:16 · Score: 0, Flamebait

Basically - and hear me out here - a bunch of Muslims are trampling each other to death in order to pay homage to their magical sky-god. I fail to see how this is an issue to be solved. It seems like a self-solving problem.
1. Re:So basically by PopeRatzo · 2015-09-27 13:20 · Score: 1, Troll
  
  Basically - and hear me out here - a bunch of Muslims are trampling each other to death in order to pay homage to their magical sky-god.
  Here in the US, we have the good sense to trample other countries to death in order to pay homage to our magical sky-god.
  http://www.independent.co.uk/n...
  
  --
  You are welcome on my lawn.
2. Re:So basically by RyuuzakiTetsuya · 2015-09-27 13:33 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  They trampled people trying to pay homage to a prophet who said things like, "don't treat women like cattle" and "look after the poor; even non Muslim poor"
  Here we trample people so we can buy 29 dollar movie players.
  
  --
  Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
3. Re:So basically by antifoidulus · 2015-09-27 14:05 · Score: 1, Informative
  
  He also banged 9 year olds. 9 year olds dude.
  
  --
  Monstar L
4. Re:So basically by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 14:36 · Score: 0
  
  He also banged 9 year olds. 9 year olds dude.
  Depends on which source (if any) you believe.
  Speaking of child brides, you may want to check out the age Mary, mother of Jesus, was supposed to be married at.
  Also, you may want to check the history of the age of consent laws.
5. Re:So basically by antifoidulus · 2015-09-27 14:40 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Did I say Christianity was any better? I don't care what the age of consent "laws" say, any civilized culture will not allow 9 year olds to be banged, especially by those who are considered "holy". But then again, sky friends and child molestation seem to go hand in hand.
  
  --
  Monstar L
6. Re:So basically by ganjadude · 2015-09-27 14:42 · Score: 1
  
  nice cherry picking. how about the rest of the koran???
  
  --
  have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
7. Re:So basically by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 15:31 · Score: 0
  
  You take your own prudish culture and call anything different "uncivilized" without an objective standard...
8. Re:So basically by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 16:00 · Score: 0
  
  > banged 9 year olds. 9 year olds dude.
  That's better than banging one 81 year-old. The math is the same.
9. Re:So basically by unixisc · 2015-09-27 16:25 · Score: 1
  
  They trampled people trying to pay homage to a prophet who said things like, "don't treat women like cattle" and "look after the poor; even non Muslim poor"
  Here we trample people so we can buy 29 dollar movie players.
  Huh? He never said any of those things. In fact, in the Qur'an, 2:223 - it says 'Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will, and send (good deeds) before you for your souls, and fear Allah, and know that ye will (one day) meet Him. Give glad tidings to believers, (O Muhammad)'
10. Re:So basically by unixisc · 2015-09-27 16:27 · Score: 1
  
  He also banged 9 year olds. 9 year olds dude.
  Depends on which source (if any) you believe.
  Speaking of child brides, you may want to check out the age Mary, mother of Jesus, was supposed to be married at.
  Also, you may want to check the history of the age of consent laws.
  Ok, so Mohammed married Aisha when she was 6, and thighed her when she was 9
11. Re:So basically by antifoidulus · 2015-09-27 18:17 · Score: 1
  
  So not fucking children is considered "prudish"? Hey, whatever the sky friend says goes right?
  
  --
  Monstar L
12. Re:So basically by RyuuzakiTetsuya · 2015-09-28 01:01 · Score: 1
  
  it's a joke.
  
  --
  Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
13. Re:So basically by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-30 11:26 · Score: 0
  
  Muhammad's last sermon told muslims to treat their women like 'domestic animals' - so there, women are well on the way to being cattle in Islam
VR is the answer by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 13:24 · Score: 0

VR is the answer to crowd control. You don't need to physically be there; you just need to spiritually be there.
That's why Facebook bought Oculus, right?
TECHNOLOGY SOLVES EVERYTHING by ArylAkamov · 2015-09-27 13:27 · Score: 1, Insightful

If they have no problem trampling on people, why would they have a problem with ignoring a computer telling them to speed up or slow down?
1. Re:TECHNOLOGY SOLVES EVERYTHING by gijoel · 2015-09-27 13:43 · Score: 2
  
  Because they're in a crowd, a really densely packed crowd. They might see that the crowd up ahead of them has slowed down but the people ten, twenty or a thousand meters behind them haven't. So the guys behind them keep pushing forward, and if you try to stop you'll be knocked down and walked over yourself. That is if the pressure of the mass of bodies doesn't crush you to death.
  
  Add panic to that, even if only a few people do, and you've got a recipe for disaster.
2. Re:TECHNOLOGY SOLVES EVERYTHING by JT27278 · 2015-09-27 14:49 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  If they have no problem trampling on people, why would they have a problem with ignoring a computer telling them to speed up or slow down?
  The first part of that statement shows ignorance of big crowds. If you have ever been in a large crowd you know that when the crowd starts moving, you have no choice, you go with it. If there is something, or someone, on the ground you walk over it because you have absolutely no choice in the matter. I've been in dangerous crowd situations twice in my life, once at a rock concert and once at a post soccer game party. It's very scary and I have no problem at all understanding how people get trampled or crushed. It has nothing to with people not caring about their fellow man. I have to agree with the second part, I doubt any instructions would help once it gets past the tipping point.
3. Re:TECHNOLOGY SOLVES EVERYTHING by Michael+Woodhams · 2015-09-27 15:19 · Score: 1
  
  "Oh look, a stampede, I think I'll join in and who knows, maybe I'll get to trample someone to death!"
  That is so not what happened, whatever you may think. You have a severe case of bigotry.
  Why hasn't this been moderated "troll" into oblivion?
  
  --
  Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
4. Re:TECHNOLOGY SOLVES EVERYTHING by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 15:31 · Score: 0
  
  Probably because of this, it's been making the rounds all over by people of that mindset.
5. Re:TECHNOLOGY SOLVES EVERYTHING by grep+-v+'.*'+* · 2015-09-27 16:19 · Score: 2
  
  I'm just going to say: if I'm in a dense crowd and the only alternatives are moving forward or getting knocked over, I'm going to move forward too.
  
  I don't think rock-star crowdsurfing would work very well. And even if it did, now you're got two layers of congestion.
  
  --
  If the universe is someone's simulation -- does that mean the stars are just stuck pixels?
6. Re:TECHNOLOGY SOLVES EVERYTHING by sg_oneill · 2015-09-27 21:30 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  If they have no problem trampling on people, why would they have a problem with ignoring a computer telling them to speed up or slow down?
  Clearly you've never been in a crowd stampede. I have, at a festival about 15 years ago,. Nobody *wants* to trample or be trampled, its the panic that sets into the crowd that starts turning thousands of individually rational responses ("flee the danger") into a very irrational crowd ("lets all run into each other"). Nobody is individually making a decision against their own interest or against others interest, its just whats happens when a lot of those decisions collide with each other.
  
  --
  Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
What am I missing? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 13:36 · Score: 0

Surely they can just enlarge the mosque? They certainly have enough money to do so.
Year long? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 13:55 · Score: 0

How about, you know, making the pilgrimage something that is year long event instead of piling in everyone on one day? This stupid preoccupation with one day event not only ruined the *city*, it also results in thousands of avoidable deaths.
1. Re:Year long? by tburkhol · 2015-09-27 23:25 · Score: 1
  
  How about, you know, making the pilgrimage something that is year long event instead of piling in everyone on one day?
  How about celebrating Easter in August? Or better yet, Christmas all year round, so we can reduce the people injured in "Black Friday" events.
Being in crowds by ockegheim · 2015-09-27 14:23 · Score: 4, Interesting

I went to see Melbourne’s fireworks on New Year’s Eve 1999 going into 2000. We arrived early and got a good viewing spot on Southbank Promenade. When it was all over and the crowd started moving, there were people pressing on every side, and we had no control over where we were moving. Until you’re near the edge you just have to go where the crowd is going.

Everyone was calm and patient, as I imagine they are 99.999% of the time at the Hajj. But from the BBC article:

With temperatures around 46C, two massive lines of pilgrims converged on each other at right angles at an intersection close to the five-storey Jamarat Bridge in Mina, a large valley about 5km (3 miles) from Mecca.

(This is nowhere near the Kaaba, where pilgrims circle around the stone, and where a lot of crowd-control research has been done.) At light densities, columns of people can cross easily and elegantly, such as at a pedestrian crossing. At high densities, it would become physically impossible to make (push) one’s way through a column moving at right angles, with this happening just as people lose their autonomy. With pressure coming in from behind it would become deadly.

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I’m old enough to remember 16K of memory being described as “whopping”
1. Re:Being in crowds by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 17:51 · Score: 1
  
  The stampede problem typically occurs at the stoning of the Devil event on the 10th day of the month. The ritual must be completed before the pilgrim can return to Mecca for the final rituals. In theory, the entire day is available to accomplish this task, but it's said that Muhammad himself did this part of the Haj after the midday prayers so many modern pilgrims wait until after noon to start and since the ritual must be completed by sundown, there's always a crush of people all trying to get it done at the last minute. So you see, although it's not strictly required to wait until after noon to start, many pilgrims do because that is what Muhammad supposedly did and that's a big problem when you have millions of people all wanting to throw rocks at stone targets in the same place in the space of 5-7 hours. I don't see how crowd control software helps this and good luck getting a bunch of religious people who are desperate not to mess up what for many of them is their one and only chance at the religious climax of their lives to follow directions. You think getting people to be civil in the queues at Disney parks is hard? This is infinitely worse.
More will be trampled to death in future stampedes by Taco+Cowboy · 2015-09-27 14:46 · Score: 2

As the world's human population will increase from the current 7 Billion to over 12 Billion within 50 years, large scale gathering, whether it be religious ceremonies, sporting events, musical festivals political carnivals, protests and/or riots will take place, and more people will be trampled to death in stampede
As long as the humans still behave like pack animals, and as long as the designated gathering venues such as Mecca fail to expand to accommodate the vastly increase number of participants, you can count on even worse disasters to happen

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Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Re:More will be trampled to death in future stampe by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 14:59 · Score: 1, Funny

So what's the downside?
Re:More will be trampled to death in future stampe by fustakrakich · 2015-09-27 15:00 · Score: 3, Insightful

As long as the humans still behave like pack animals, and as long as the designated gathering venues such as Mecca fail to expand to accommodate the vastly increase number of participants, you can count on even worse disasters to happen
That's why you shouldn't fence them in. The problem starts when you block the path. Just put the whole damn thing out in the open where people can move.

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“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
And this has what to do with the crucification by 0xdeaddead · 2015-09-27 15:04 · Score: 1

of that kid?
Re:More will be trampled to death in future stampe by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 15:28 · Score: 0

So, Burning Man is a good idea?
Re:Fuck Islam. Muslims are SATANIC by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 16:04 · Score: 0

Bwahahaha what an idiotic rant, hope that took you ages to type, best laugh I've had in ages!
Answers by SuperKendall · 2015-09-27 16:06 · Score: 1

Well I don't know what the real answer is but I'm pretty sure it will involve drones equipped with silly string.

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"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
English ain't their language by unixisc · 2015-09-27 16:11 · Score: 2

How about in English? For the few remaining here.
Well, this story is about people who understand mainly Bahasa Indonesian, Urdu, Arabic, Turkic languages, Farsi and so on. So it's okay for English to be a low priority here /troll
Old school solution: Swash bulkheads by WaffleMonster · 2015-09-27 16:43 · Score: 4, Interesting

A way to stop giant bags of mostly water from gaining destructive momentum is to add structures which limit how much energy is allowed to accumulate before such energy is harmlessly limited by an obstruction. The way to fix this isn't removing barriers it is adding them... lots and lots and lots and lots of them. With many thousands of stampede deaths the only acceptable solution should be an inherently safe one rather than depending on everyone following instructions.
Thinking people will respond to whatever signals you are piping out in the exceptional but predictable instances when fear takes over a crowd is idiotic in and of itself. The only worse thing I can imagine would be to leverage such delusions as an excuse to enable you to "safely" cram in even more.
An old scam? by TapeCutter · 2015-09-27 16:47 · Score: 1

Fuzzy logic is just as 'real' as calculus, and what's your beef with the term "expert system", does it hurt you ego to realise Google's search engine knows more about the internet than you do?

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And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Hard to control by garry_g · 2015-09-27 19:03 · Score: 1

It's awfully hard to control the reactions of a crowd in a panic situation. With such a density, I doubt anything really effective can be done ... least signals to "slow down or speed up" ... in such situations, low-level impulses of the brain take over ... see results of research concerning e.g. exiting a building ... most humans will tend to follow the stream, leading to overcrowding of exits (while others that would give easier egress are sparsely used).
So unless they seriously limit access (which, in turn, might cause problems at the point of entry), these sorts of "accidents" will always happen.
Re:Fuck Islam. Muslims are SATANIC by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 20:04 · Score: 0, Offtopic

People organize their own universe, organize their own energy and decide how to project it into the world eg. preach to their own truth.
Distortion / Logic / Unconscious Collective, some would say, is just one of 7 levels/arrows for successfully embedding into geometry of space (7 axes of symmetry through tetra-cube which is the physics of the origins of @lph@b3ts)
which is to say just one way of getting to the zero-point of your inner-self (can meditate, pray, etc etc.all depends on the person)
when the zero point is coherent, balanced, unbiased, no prejudice (perfect self reference) then one sees others without any bias
Which some would say is another one of the 7 levels/arrows eg. scalar potential, mind force. etc.
To choose to repeat and project the contents of these comments above it would appear there is some hang-up in the distortion layer and the poster of the comments are gimbal locked, sorry to say
When you can get beyond the layer of distortion you get closer to being able to embed accurately precisely perfectly in the cube of space which will give you better vector control to steer... well.. anything really... and you will love everybody...
the word religion means to 're-connect' back to Source or Cause, which some would say is religion's true purpose...
but pious and non-pious people alike should realize it's not the end unto itself...
because there is no end.. and there is no beginning...
Use an escalator or have people sit in chairs by backslashdot · 2015-09-27 20:08 · Score: 1

Use a wheelchair to wizz them around on a conveyance system. Then hand them a science book and tell them to GTFO. Don't forget, charge them money too. That's always a good way to thin the the crowd. Start charging a fee .. when the Saudis run out of oil it will happen. Then you could have some rock star throw concert on top of the rock. But anyway not to distract from my idea of having the crowd sit in open air train carriages or wheelchairs as they are automatically taken on their pilgrimage. Yes it means they might get fat but remember these are psychos who believe in religion -- fat is the least of their problems.
Double jeopardy. by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 20:18 · Score: 0

So many of the visitors at Mecca are black african sub-saharan region negros, thus any kind of intelligent solution for the stampede problem is out of question per se. Combine this inherent problem with the utter laziness and carelessness of the wahhabite extremist sunni saudis and disaster is unavoidable.
Opposable thumbs by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 20:48 · Score: 0

How do you tell a monkey to slow down or speed up?
Purpose of society by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-27 21:36 · Score: 0

This religion and people are unbelievable:
- they were able to build clocks ... to follow the mandatory 5 prayers
- they were able to use compass ... to know the direction to Mecca
- now they are organizing state-of-the-art crowd technology international design competition to ...
handle crowd during the hajj.
We definitly do not have the same meaning for innovation and what's its purpose.
limits by umghhh · 2015-09-27 21:59 · Score: 1

As we know real world has limits. Politicians and religious and business leaders often ignore this reality - how about limits to the pilgrimage too - There is limited place in front of certain holy objects and you need certain time to do what you want to do. This means you have only this many people that can visit the place assuming smooth flow.
Are Saudis anywhere near this limit yet?
Assuming we have maxed on safe numbers of people per unit of time we still assume smooth flow. Humans not being fluids, having their own ideas distorting the flow make accidents inevitable even with best design.
Re: More will be trampled to death in future stamp by johnsnails · 2015-09-27 22:07 · Score: 1

Doesn't work... Ironically even if u do believe in raising from the dead, more people die at these crusades because of the crowds than supposedly raise from the dead... Evangelism in Nigeria - Reinhard Bonnke https://youtu.be/MBtBHZtdU78
Money making scam by DrXym · 2015-09-27 22:25 · Score: 0

If Islam gave a damn about people's lives, they would allow people to perform the Hajj all year around, or over a longer time window, or by proxy, or not at all. But all that would cut into the profits and we can't have that.
Re:More will be trampled to death in future stampe by tburkhol · 2015-09-27 22:30 · Score: 1

That's why you shouldn't fence them in. The problem starts when you block the path. Just put the whole damn thing out in the open where people can move
Even without fences or corrals, a throng of 1e9 people is dangerous. Those guys in back, 7km from the 'stage,' want, at least, to be able to see the venue, and they push, just a little. The guys only 3km from 'stage,' they're also pushing, just a little. What do you think happens when a line of people four or five kilometers long all pushes on the guy in front?
This is what makes lemmings go over cliff faces, and it's why people died at Mecca.
How about praying? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-28 00:15 · Score: 0

So, they need software to fix something that Allah could prevent if only they had enough faith?
Being in crowds - Full of Cultists. by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-28 01:17 · Score: 0

Add to it an irrational demeanour brought on as a result of, in most cases, decades of cultist brainwashing in Islamic dogma and the cult of personality of Muhammad.
Just about all of them want to do it at noon, because Muhammad did it. It's actually very strictly required, because Muhammad's Sunna (example) is EVERYTHING. The Quran tells Muslims to do it word for word and the hadiths describe Muhammad's actions as his example. So, off they go, starting after noon and before dusk chucknig rocks at stone columns.
The Hadiths (along with the Quran of course) are why ISIS murder, rape and pillage. After all it's exactly what Muhammad did, in spite of what an occasional "moderate" Muslim might tell you.
So, Islamic dogma facilitates converting 100000's into mass murderers and rapists and you are asking for the control of millions bunched up together and all literally thinking that chucking 7 pebbles at stone columns is a vital step to getting 72 houris (they're houris, not virgins per say!) and lots of little boys in the afterlife brothel Muhammad promised his faithful followers.
Unless your crowd control software is able to deprogram decades of relentless brainwashing, I don't see much hope.
Re: Fuck Islam. Muslims are SATANIC by mnemotronic · 2015-09-28 01:34 · Score: 1

...one of 7 levels/arrows for successfully embedding into geometry of space (7 axes of symmetry through tetra-cube which is the physics of the origins of @lph@b3ts)
I could almost follow some of that. Part of me wants to ask WTF you been smokin but another part of me wants more info. I just hope this doesnt have anything to do with scientology.

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The Russians have won. They have made the world a cesspool of distrust, greed, fear and hate.
Re:More will be trampled to death in future stampe by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-28 03:59 · Score: 0

>
This is what makes lemmings go over cliff faces, and it's why people died at Mecca.
Lemmings don't jump or get pushed off of cliff faces.
Re:More will be trampled to death in future stampe by Coren22 · 2015-09-28 04:43 · Score: 2

They did in the simulator I used to play around with.

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APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
fraction Muslims who go on Hajj by peter303 · 2015-09-28 06:11 · Score: 1

If there are 1.0 to 1.5 billion Muslims, but the hajj logistics maxes out at about 2.5M a year, I was wondering what fraction of Muslims are able to practice this essential tenant of their religion. Forbes tried to compile statistics in this figure http://blogs-images.forbes.com... One out of six at best. Distance, finances, and quotas limit those who are able to attend.
Re: More will be trampled to death in future stamp by Areyoukiddingme · 2015-09-28 11:12 · Score: 1

Seriously, Mecha would be a great place...
I agree, a pilgrimage site devoted to giant robots is a really great idea. Where should we build it though?
Coren22 completely CRUSHED & dominated (by fac by Anonymous Coward · 2015-09-30 06:12 · Score: 0

Aryeh Goretsky NOD32/ESET agrees hosts = good security -> http://it.slashdot.org/comment...
Oliver Day (Symantec) does the same -> http://www.securityfocus.com/c...
MalwareBytes' hpHosts BOTH hosts & recommends my APK Hosts File Engine 9.0++ SR-2 32/64-bit -> http://hosts-file.net/?s=Downl...
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* HOW MANY REAL SECURITY PROS (not menial wannabe rookie like you) DO I NEED TO KNOCK THE CHOCOLATE OUT OF YOU SOME MORE?
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Those security pros?
They INCLUDE ME too you noobie rookie obvious dimwit as I work with those guys from malwarebytes' hpHosts on a fairly regular basis!
I've worked professionally for decades as a combined domain-wide network admin & software engineer professionally since 1994 (with ME showing you HOW to migrate a hosts file across an enterprise -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... )
(I've also been securing computers + WRITING GUIDES (which you told me you learned from guides) + WARES TO DO IT 1,000's to MILLIONS USED, probably LONGER THAN YOU HAVE BEEN ALIVE possibly BEING PAID FOR IT -> http://pcpitstop.com/news/winn... )
You're all TALK & can't back it -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...
APK
P.S.=> YOU say "hosts=bad" (yet they add security, speed, & reliability) & bitch about using admin privelege (first) to UPDATE them vs. threats online:

"So, have you figured out why privilege escalation is a bad thing yet?" - by Coren22 on Tuesday September 22, 2015 @05:15PM (#50577809)
Hypocrite - You admit using admin priv yourself & how else could I programmatically update hosts minus it inside Windows?

"Of course it requires elevation to write to the hosts file" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday September 23, 2015 @05:35PM (#50585879)
Since you're MENIAL ASS limited in skills self doesn't code (& didn't even KNOW that) & CLUE/FACT:
Even MalwareBytes AntiMalware (best there is) DEMANDS you use admin privelege (you saying it's "bad" too?) it can't do its job fully otherwise, like many security tools... apk
Re: More will be trampled to death in future stamp by cwsumner · 2015-10-01 07:59 · Score: 1

Some people deserve death by fire. Let's start with the Republicans.
Don't mess with republicans, they have guns! 8-)