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IBM Scientists Find New Way To Shrink Transistors

MarcAuslander writes that IBM scientists have discovered a way to replace silicon semiconductors with carbon nanotube transistors, an innovation the company hopes will dramatically improve chip performance and get the industry past the limits of Moore's law. According to the Times: In the semiconductor business, it is called the 'red brick wall' — the limit of the industry's ability to shrink transistors beyond a certain size. On Thursday, however, IBM scientists reported that they now believe they see a path around the wall. Writing in the journal Science, a team at the company's Thomas J. Watson Research Center said it has found a new way to make transistors from parallel rows of carbon nanotubes.

25 of 100 comments (clear)

  1. Two things that IBM can shrink w/o limit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Transistors, and their own US-based workforce.

  2. Limits of Moor's law?? by trollingaround · · Score: 4, Informative

    The Moore law that I know says that the number of transistor in a IC, double approximately every two years. Is there another one that specifies some limits?

    1. Re: Limits of Moor's law?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      It's the Law. Why do you question it?

      Oh, because you can think critically.

      The next person that quotes Moore's Law to me like it's anything other than an observation of one man that happened to be true for a decent period of time is getting a Lawgiver to the face.

    2. Re:Limits of Moor's law?? by Alwin+Henseler · · Score: 2, Informative

      Physics? Or more specific in this case: how close atoms are arranged in typical semiconductor materials, and how few of them you need at a minimum to construct useful devices. That is: without practical issues like current leakage, isolation voltages, parasitic capacitance, etc, etc, making things not-so-useful (at best). Pro tip: try integer numbers first (or just very large numbers without counting exactly how many atoms go into your device).

      But please, if you know of a way to build IC's using 1/10-atom wide structures, I'm sure the engineers at IBM, Intel etc will be interested. After all, why let physics get in the way of human-invented 'laws'.

    3. Re:Limits of Moor's law?? by GrahamCox · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's a badly and lazily written summary. Moore's "law" doesn't specify any limits, but for a while Moore's law hasn't held true because of some unforeseen physical limits of the current silicon technology we use.

      This new technology may or may not deliver what it promises, but if it does, it will be a resumption of Moore's law, not breaking it. If anything, Moore's "law" was broken several years ago by the existing technology not living up to it.

      I put "law" in quotes because it's not actually a law, just a prediction, and a rather wishful one at that.

    4. Re: Limits of Moor's law?? by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Believe me, as a libertarian I love questioning the wisdom of all laws, but every time I do some social justice activist calls the PC Principal on me, and he's not nice.

    5. Re:Limits of Moor's law?? by rtb61 · · Score: 2

      Shrinking will always have limits when you are looking at very narrowly defined conditions. More logical would be how to get transistors to be in more than two states, on or off, by say storing a frequency instead so that many states are possible in the same space. So instead of two states, say ten states in the same space with branches being frequency specific.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    6. Re: Limits of Moor's law?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You guys are so boring, find a new routine or something.

    7. Re:Limits of Moor's law?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      There is a good reason why that buys you nothing, and costs you much: Basically, the thermal dissipation of a device of a given geometry is what gives it state, by thermalising the state change, it prevents quantum annealing from returning it to the previous or indeterminate state. To increase the number of states you have to increase the voltage proportionally to the number of states, so to add one extra bit (remember a bit is just log2(possible states)), you have to double the number of states, and therefore the voltage; all well and good? No, because the dissipation of a device is proportional to the square of voltage, so you have doubled the bit density by quadrupling the energy consumption of the device.

      And this is not even taking into account the added complexity (more gates) required to at some point discriminate these levels to implement logic. This also roughly scales to the square of the number of states. So you take the square of the square of the number of states, or raise the activation energy to the fourth power of what it was, at least making the device 8x more energy dense or less efficient for a 2x gain (this is the hard limit of information theory, real numbers are worse).

      Now there of course is still room at the bottom to make these quantum annealing devices we call switches more efficient, but the way you are proposing is working in the opposite direction.

      If you want a computer to be reliable, that is compute things much more often than uncompute things, you have to have a thermal bias, so that P(compute) >> P(uncompute), which we do by setting up an entropy gradient and periodically saving the result of some combinatorial equation to a register where it's value is constantly reinforced by that entropy gradient (current flowing through the latch), or else held in that state by lifting it over an activation barrier (as in memristors and Flash). Either way energy is consumed in the process, as you lift it into a indeterminate state and allow it to relax into the desired determinable state. The clock and Vdd provide together provide this energy to allow this to function.

      -puddingpimp

    8. Re: Limits of Moor's law?? by MyAlternateID · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Believe me, as a libertarian I love questioning the wisdom of all laws, but every time I do some social justice activist calls the PC Principal on me, and he's not nice.

      My own experience is that the Political Correctness types know how off-topic they are with regard to anything I tend to discuss (I mean, my stance that consenting adults should be able to do what they want whether or not I personally agree naturally includes lots of under-represented non-mainstream cultures). What I get instead is the morons who, despite knowing little or nothing about libertarian thought, feel an irresistable urge to form an opinion on it. Thus simple and easy-to-understand concepts like "minimal government" are conflated with anarcho-capitalism, even after I kindly explain to them that a government which cannot maintain rule of law and cannot enforce necessary regulations is less than minimal (that is, insufficient, too far in the opposite direction) and therefore not at all what I am talking about.

      In such discussions said morons tend to respond to what they imagine I must have meant, as though they know this better than I, rather than responding to what I actually said (see the arrogance?). I think a lot of people confuse terms accidentally. When they realize they have done this, they realize it after some discussion has already occurred. Then they continue to do it intentionally, because for them, this is somehow easier than admitting they made a mistake. After all, they already made up their mind what "libertarian" means and aren't interested in honestly examining how accurate their mental representation (stereotype) actually is.

      The world is filled with people who don't care about truth but do care very much about their own image and whether they can appear to be "right" in the eyes of others. Admitting fault is not compatible with this worldview, however noble and constructive it may be. Libertarian thought is especially problematic because if it caught on and became popular and well-represented in media, it would cause some drastic societal changes that would amount to a lot of powerful people losing their power. Thus, no one with any funding, power, or representation has any incentive to do anything other than demonize it. The method of demonization is simple: portray only its most extreme, least rational formations and ignore any reasonable method of applying its principles. Thus we are all anarcho-capitalists who don't want rule of law, publically funded police protection and firefighters, reasonable regulations, etc. No, it is "every man for himself", and if you aren't rich enough to hire private guards then you just get fucked.

      That's the way you discredit a credible idea: misrepresent it like hell, being careful never to portray its merits. Make no mistake, poltiics is a great big PR game and PR is so effective because most people are lemmings who will not conduct their own research before deciding what they think of a given position. If the average person took a skeptical attitude towards every political stance, never believing anything other than what they can validate with facts and non-fallacious reasoning, then we would not have the situation we experience now, in which the politician with the most funding who buys the most advertising tends to win the election.

    9. Re: Limits of Moor's law?? by MyAlternateID · · Score: 3, Funny

      You guys are so boring, find a new routine or something.

      I salute your substantive and intellectually stimulating contribution to this discussion, sir or madam.

    10. Re:Limits of Moor's law?? by viperidaenz · · Score: 2

      Yeah, I'm sure it was IP laws stopping the production of 6nm processors in 1970.

    11. Re:Limits of Moor's law?? by funwithBSD · · Score: 3, Informative

      Except that Moore's law has nothing to do with the size of transistors, but the number of transistors on a single chip.

      You can keep up by expanding the chip size, but then the yields tend to go down. If we could make perfect chips, the size could double every 2 years, although that would make for some very big chips indeed. Connections to the pinouts also become a problem as surface area expands faster than the perimeter.

      You could also go about it by making a true 3-d chip, instead of stacking individual chips on top of each other as they do today. That would make the external pinout problem even worse, as interior volume grows much faster than external surface area or edges.

      Shrinking the transistors is just the most effective way to do it, until you hit the red brick wall.

      --
      Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
    12. Re:Limits of Moor's law?? by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 2

      > The Heisenberg uncertainty principle is one profoundly limiting factor for all digital processing, but we're a few "Moore's law" generations away from that one.

      >> Except that Moore's law has nothing to do with the size of transistors, but the number of transistors on a single chip.

      Only if you ignore the last 50 years of computing history and _how_ more transistors have been placed on a single chip. It's like saying that computing has nothing to do with binary logic: there are other available logics, such as trinary, but they haven't proven very useful yet. So let's be aware for planning purposes that we're approaching that limitation. You do mention the problem, but it seems confusing to me that you first mention how much they aren't related, then go on to mention the history of workarounds for just that problem.

      Another fascinating physics limitation is Landauer's Principle: that's a deduction of how much minimum _energy_ or power is involved in computation. As components shrink, the density of heat production is increased, which creates a whole second set of limitations involving circuit cooling. It's all fascinating material, and definitely worth keeping in mind when people simply extend their charts of Moore's law forever, or extend their charts of other exponential growth curves.

    13. Re: Limits of Moor's law?? by KGIII · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Absolutely but that's very fluid and I'll be the very first to admit that any pure political ideology will not work - no form, not even democracy, will ever work. A reasonable and blended choice is ideal. Most (from what I've witnessed over the many years) Libertarians don't actually have much in common with the people who purport to speak for the party and, frankly, this is a bad thing and is our fault entirely for not having maintained control and been welcoming of anyone and everyone. It's sort of how the Republicans let the Fundamentalists into the tent.

      Seriously, read the first few paragraphs on Wikipedia. it's actually written better than I expected. I just discovered it the other day - I'd never bothered looking before as I'd assumed it was going to be trash. I'm pretty far left, as an example, and generally believe the rights of the individual come before all else except where the commons need protections. Businesses, for example, have rights but they are really far down on the list of importance. I want a strong, functional, government without waste and over-reaching antics. I want everyone to have the same chances I have had and I want people to be able to move upward. I want a strong social safety net. I am a Libertarian. I guess, to be frank, it's probably time to start calling myself a Classic Libertarian.

      Ayn Rand was a moron and Rand Paul needs to be cracked in the jaw.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    14. Re: Limits of Moor's law?? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 3, Insightful

      An you sound fairly similar to my philisophy. I'm far in the direction of letting people do whatever the hell they want if they're not harming anyone else. I also support a rather stronger right to self defence and related things than many people do: while there's a line somewhere between self defense and manslaughter, I don't thing that one should have to rationally exercise measured restraint against someone who's just thrown you into a potentially life or death situation against your will.

      I support socialistic things like a decent welfare state, and therefore the taxes required to run it. I also support the government stepping in when the free market is doing a poor job. Anything that's too big to fail should be run by the government because the government has to take the risk of propping it up anyway. That includes things like infrastructure.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    15. Re: Limits of Moor's law?? by KGIII · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I got damned lucky. I got into a business, specifically traffic modeling (vehicular and then pedestrian), at a time when it was really immature "on a computer." I'm actually an Applied Mathematics doctorate but that was my work. I sold my business and retired about eight years ago. It was pretty lucrative though I don't want to go into details for fairly obvious reasons.

      These days, well, honestly? I don't think I could spend the money I have unless I really worked at it or whatnot. I actually invest and make more from investing than I've ever made before and I don't even know what I'm doing. Really, not a clue. I take investment advice from Slashdot comments (bought 2000 shares of Tesla at $245, thank you).

      I pay more in taxes than you, almost certainly. However, I pay a much lower percentage than you do. I'd not mind paying higher taxes so long as they were spent wisely. I don't mind helping the poor or disabled. I consider my OBLIGATIONS to include helping those people. They, the citizens, helped to pay me to be where I am today via their taxes. Additionally, I really don't want roving bands of disenfranchised poor people stealing my stuff - I like my stuff, that's why I bought it.

      I'm actually your fairly typical Libertarian though this has changed and I may be a minority now thus I think I'll stop arguing and call myself a Classic Libertarian. Damn it, damn it all to hell...

      I'm on the left because I like accumulating wealth and acquiring toys. I want you to make a metric ton of cash because your doing so means that I do too. I want you healthy, fed, and educated. I want to carry those who can not because it's cheaper than dealing with the troubles down the road. I support single-payer health care, for example. I love the idea.

      I don't care who you sleep with. I don't care about marriage. Marriage is a ceremony. Leave it to the churches. Make civil unions and be done with it. The rights belong to the people and we're ruled by consent. Let's not let those in power forget where the true power lies.

      You might be closer to being a Libertarian than you might think. ;)

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    16. Re: Limits of Moor's law?? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 2

      Nice job on selling the business and making a huge pile of cash.

      However, I pay a much lower percentage than you do.

      Haha not likely! Normally you'd be right for any random poster. However, you see I invested(?) almost all of my saving in a house to live in in London (so the growth isn't taxable) and I started a company this year. Since we don't yet have significant income, I'm earning little enough that I'm in the 0% tax bracket... But trust me when I say that situation can't persist much longer.

      They, the citizens, helped to pay me to be where I am today via their taxes.

      I get increasingly annoyed at the "self made man" idea. Yeah sure, self made, in a country with excellent infrastructure, education and legal system all supported by other people's taxes. I know I like to gripe about all 3 of those, but being realistic, there's much worse places in the world.

      I want to carry those who can not because it's cheaper than dealing with the troubles down the road.

      That is what a lot of people don't seem to get. Solving social problems before they happen is cheaper than policing them after they have happened. Even as a rampant anarcho capitalist it makes no sense to put yourself in a situation where you have to spend more for a less efficient outcome due to short sighted thinking.

      I don't care who you sleep with. I don't care about marriage. Marriage is a ceremony. Leave it to the churches. Make civil unions and be done with it.

      I agree with this too. Sadly it's unlikely to fly. It's also tricky to explain to some people as they instantly seem to get the wrong end of the stick and assume you're against gay marriage. Probably because that's the UKIP excuse: they can't re-ban gay marriage but they are at their hearts a party of bigots so they come out against all marriage. So I happen to agree with them, but for other reasons. Stopped clock etc...

      You might be closer to being a Libertarian than you might think. ;)

      Apparently so. I'd never encountered the idea of socialist libertarians before. Ever other self-professed libertarian has been the "smallest government possible then a good deal smaller" type with overlays of "get yer hands off my guns" and "taxes are theft".

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
  3. size by phantomfive · · Score: 2

    The summary doesn't say what size, and the article merely says "40 atoms in width" (presumable carbon atoms? Who knows?)
    Apparently it's a technology that will coincide with the 7nm node.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    1. Re: size by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      So, it'll be the same size as your johnson.

      You're making a lot of assumptions about my anatomy and gender there, you know......

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    2. Re:size by viperidaenz · · Score: 2

      14nm is the size of the smallest part of a transistor, the width of the gate.
      Not the entire transistor.
      It's also known as "minimum feature size"

  4. Show Me Something Made with C Nanotubes! by Irate+Engineer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I've seen tons of articles like this over the last decade, touting carbon nanotubes as being the enabling technology for all sorts of improved applications.

    Can anyone actually point me to something that has made it to production utilizing carbon nanotubes? I'm not being snarky here - I'm really curious to know if any of this is actually getting off the workbench into mainstream use anywhere.

    Carbon nanotubes hit me as being a wonder invention like nuclear fusion; if we can build it it will be awesome, but we probably won't be able to build it for at least $DATE + 20 years.

    --

    Left MS Windows for Linux Mint and never looked back!

    Vote for Bernie in 2016!

    1. Re:Show Me Something Made with C Nanotubes! by ClickOnThis · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Can anyone actually point me to something that has made it to production utilizing carbon nanotubes?

      The following looks like a good reference.

      http://www.researchgate.net/pu...

      --
      If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
  5. Crappy reporting is crappy by smaddox · · Score: 3, Informative

    The channel lengths were 60 nm. This is massive compared to the latest generation of CMOS (~14 nm).

    The confusion seems to come down to the fact that the SWCNT diameter is ~1 nm. However, 14 nm CMOS already uses FinFET's with channel widths of ~8 nm which is ~60 atoms.

    Regardless, the science article is actually about improved contact resistance, which is one of the major challenges associated with continued scaling of CMOS. However, they have only been able to show this improvement for p-channel devices, and they state clearly that n-channel devices present a much larger problem. If you want to replace CMOS, you need both n-channel and p-channel devices (not to mention fabrication yield needs to be as close to perfect as Si CMOS is). Thus my subject line (see above).

  6. Re:Moore Law has Limits? by smaddox · · Score: 2

    I think they meant "limits to Moore's law". Remember that Moore's law is not a law at all, it's just an observation. Furthermore, the observed doubling time has been steadily increasing for a number of years. Note that Intel missed their last targeted doubling.

    The driving factor behind Moore's law has always been economics. Once scaling becomes too expensive, it won't happen (at least not at an exponential rate). We're getting close to that point. 3D transistors have delayed the end of Moore's law for NAND flash, but it's not clear if the same can be done for logic. Unlike NAND flash, the performance of logic circuits is usually limited by heat dissipation. If you go 3D, you might be able to pack in more transistors per unit area, but you can't operate all of those transistors at the same time or they will burn up.