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Prison Debate Team Beats Harvard's National Title Winners
HughPickens.com writes: Lauren Gambino reports at The Guardian that months after winning this year's national debate championship, Harvard's debate team has fallen to a debate team of three inmates with violent criminal records. The showdown took place at the Eastern correctional facility in New York, a maximum-security prison where convicts can take courses taught by faculty from nearby Bard College, and where inmates have formed a popular debate club. The Bard prison initiative has expanded since 2001 to six New York correctional facilities, and aims to provide inmates with a liberal arts education so that when the students leave prison they are able to find meaningful work. A three-judge panel concluded that the Bard team had raised strong arguments that the Harvard team had failed to consider and declared the team of inmates victorious. "Debate helps students master arguments that they don't necessarily agree with," says Max Kenner. "It also pushes people to learn to be not just better litigators but to become more empathetic people, and that's what really speaks to us as an institution about the debate union."
The prison team has proven formidable in the past, beating teams from the US military academy at West Point and the University of Vermont. They lost a rematch against West Point in April, setting up a friendly rivalry between the teams. The competition against West Point has become an annual event, and the prison team is preparing for the next debate in spring. In the morning before the debate, team members talked of nerves and their hope that competing against Harvard—even if they lost—would inspire other inmates to pursue educations. "If we win, it's going to make a lot of people question what goes on in here," says Alex Hall, a 31-year-old from Manhattan convicted of manslaughter. "We might not be as naturally rhetorically gifted, but we work really hard."
The prison team has proven formidable in the past, beating teams from the US military academy at West Point and the University of Vermont. They lost a rematch against West Point in April, setting up a friendly rivalry between the teams. The competition against West Point has become an annual event, and the prison team is preparing for the next debate in spring. In the morning before the debate, team members talked of nerves and their hope that competing against Harvard—even if they lost—would inspire other inmates to pursue educations. "If we win, it's going to make a lot of people question what goes on in here," says Alex Hall, a 31-year-old from Manhattan convicted of manslaughter. "We might not be as naturally rhetorically gifted, but we work really hard."
From the article:
"Among formerly incarcerated Bard students who earned degrees while in custody, fewer than 2% have returned to prison within three years, a standard measurement period for assessing recidivism. This is exceptionally low, when contrasted with the statewide recidivism rate, which has hovered for decades at about 40%."
Sounds like a wonderful program.
Released inmates from Eastern Correctional Facility quickly work their way up the chain of command in their respective gangs.
is full of "master debaters" Ha Ha!
I got to the chocolate box before you, that's why the hard ones have teeth marks.
1. Harvard doesn't necessarily mean genuinely smart, believe me I have first-hand experience.
Well the title of the article refers to the Harvard team as "National Title Winners". In fact the article's first sentence says "Months after winning a national title, Harvard’s debate team has fallen to a group of New York prison inmates." While you could say that about random people from Harvard, you'd expect a team that won a national title in debate to be somewhat good.
Additionally, a bunch of cocky elitists from an Ivy League school probably didn't prepare in for this little shindig to the same extent as their opponents.
I'm curious to know how you think being in prison that gives a person an advantage that an elitist college student doesn't have
In fact, you might say their opponents were captivated with their training...
Er what does that mean? If anything the prison inmates were at a disadvantage in debate preparation as their access to the resources such as books and the Internet is severely limited.
Inmates face any number of challenges preparing for debate, including a lack of access to the Internet and a requirement for prison administration approval of necessary written materials, which can delay access to information.
Look at the position that the good left-wing indoctrinated Harvardites were asked to take: That forcing public schools to educate any and all children of illegal aliens is not necessarily a good thing.
Um, no. That was the position the inmates had to argue. The skill of debater is not whether the debater believes in the position personally but what arguments they can make for the position they took. In some formats, the positions are not decided until the debate so the teams have to prepare for both sides.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
I'm just wondering. Is one of these guys named "Lex Luthor" or "Padraic Ratigan"?
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
1. Harvard doesn't necessarily mean genuinely smart, believe me I have first-hand experience. Additionally, a bunch of cocky elitists from an Ivy League school probably didn't prepare in for this little shindig to the same extent as their opponents. In fact, you might say their opponents were captivated with their training....
So how do you rationalize the prisoners beating West Point as well?
I stole this Sig
It acknowledges and legitimizes humanity and worth of those in prison. I wonder if the inmates have an advantage in that they may be a decade or more older than their college competitors, and thus have more experiences and maturity over them...
1. Harvard doesn't necessarily mean genuinely smart, believe me I have first-hand experience.
Maybe. Nobody has ever managed to work out what they are actually saying: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
Harvard's a *legacy* school!
You don't go there for an education, you go to make "contacts".
It's basically just a papermill for rich kids to buy degrees, and you expect them to be educated? LOL - the whole reason they're buying a degree from a legacy school in the first place is so they don't have to do any work.
That's funny, I've always heard Harvard is just full of Master Debaters.
Pretending this is my office full of bitter coworkers..
I couldn't help but think, while reading this story, that it'd be perfect for a "based on real life" movie script. Has all the ingredients to be a "feel good, downtrodden guys make good" film.
"..... and that concludes my opening statement. You got a problem with that, punk?"
Have gnu, will travel.
You've pretty much got to do something about that first. It's a central tenant of Puritanism. Not sure how you deal with that. From a purely mechanical standpoint our economic right wing (e.g. the rich) noticed our religious right wing (e.g. blue collars) would throw their economic concerns to the wind for social issues. Stuff like Gun Rights, Abortion, Gay Marriage, etc, etc. We've pretty much defused Gun Rights (the left dropped it) and Gay Marriage (somehow or another they won that battle) but I'll be damned if I can figure out Abortion. There's a sizable portion of the population that strongly feels that you should be punished for any action that has negative consequences. That mistakes should hurt. That's pretty much Puritanism in a nutshell. And I don't know how to cure them of that feeling.
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I took an algorithms course at Harvard. It was just as hard as anything I took at MIT, and I took 18.313 back when G.C. Rota was still alive (greatest math teacher ever, by the way).
Of course there are people who are there because they're "legacies", and I suppose they take different courses, but the kids who get in because they're smart are pretty damned smart.
As for left-wing indoctrination, Harvard is a bastion of the establishment. The prep school crowd in particular has been thoroughly indoctrinated in the perfection of capitalism and the moral entitlement of the ruling classes. It doesn't mean that some of them aren't apostates, of course.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Protip: If you need to go back 187 years to prove a point about today, your point just might be abject bullshit.
Yeah, we really need a "-1, Stupid" option.
"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?