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Prison Debate Team Beats Harvard's National Title Winners
HughPickens.com writes: Lauren Gambino reports at The Guardian that months after winning this year's national debate championship, Harvard's debate team has fallen to a debate team of three inmates with violent criminal records. The showdown took place at the Eastern correctional facility in New York, a maximum-security prison where convicts can take courses taught by faculty from nearby Bard College, and where inmates have formed a popular debate club. The Bard prison initiative has expanded since 2001 to six New York correctional facilities, and aims to provide inmates with a liberal arts education so that when the students leave prison they are able to find meaningful work. A three-judge panel concluded that the Bard team had raised strong arguments that the Harvard team had failed to consider and declared the team of inmates victorious. "Debate helps students master arguments that they don't necessarily agree with," says Max Kenner. "It also pushes people to learn to be not just better litigators but to become more empathetic people, and that's what really speaks to us as an institution about the debate union."
The prison team has proven formidable in the past, beating teams from the US military academy at West Point and the University of Vermont. They lost a rematch against West Point in April, setting up a friendly rivalry between the teams. The competition against West Point has become an annual event, and the prison team is preparing for the next debate in spring. In the morning before the debate, team members talked of nerves and their hope that competing against Harvard—even if they lost—would inspire other inmates to pursue educations. "If we win, it's going to make a lot of people question what goes on in here," says Alex Hall, a 31-year-old from Manhattan convicted of manslaughter. "We might not be as naturally rhetorically gifted, but we work really hard."
The prison team has proven formidable in the past, beating teams from the US military academy at West Point and the University of Vermont. They lost a rematch against West Point in April, setting up a friendly rivalry between the teams. The competition against West Point has become an annual event, and the prison team is preparing for the next debate in spring. In the morning before the debate, team members talked of nerves and their hope that competing against Harvard—even if they lost—would inspire other inmates to pursue educations. "If we win, it's going to make a lot of people question what goes on in here," says Alex Hall, a 31-year-old from Manhattan convicted of manslaughter. "We might not be as naturally rhetorically gifted, but we work really hard."
From the article:
"Among formerly incarcerated Bard students who earned degrees while in custody, fewer than 2% have returned to prison within three years, a standard measurement period for assessing recidivism. This is exceptionally low, when contrasted with the statewide recidivism rate, which has hovered for decades at about 40%."
Sounds like a wonderful program.
Released inmates from Eastern Correctional Facility quickly work their way up the chain of command in their respective gangs.
The inmates in Bellevue's psych ward.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
I guess it's better than teaching metal shop or lock picking,
I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
2. Look at the position that the good left-wing indoctrinated Harvardites were asked to take: That forcing public schools to educate any and all children of illegal aliens is not necessarily a good thing.
RTFA. That is the position the inmates were asked to argue for.
I live ze unknown. I love ze unknown. I am ze unknown.
is full of "master debaters" Ha Ha!
I got to the chocolate box before you, that's why the hard ones have teeth marks.
After all, they heartily approve of forcing taxpayers to pay for free schooling that teaches illegal alien kids that America is evil & racist while failing to teach them English, because English literacy == racism. After all, they go to private prep schools and don't have to see any of those kids, so it's all well and good if the the lower classes have to put up with them.
Plus, by losing to the prison debate team, they demonstrated that a reformatory rather than punitive agenda in incarceration can work. Win-win!
A three-judge panel concluded that the Bard team had raised strong arguments that the Harvard team had failed to consider and declared the team of inmates victorious.
They're Bards.
How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
1. Harvard doesn't necessarily mean genuinely smart, believe me I have first-hand experience.
Well the title of the article refers to the Harvard team as "National Title Winners". In fact the article's first sentence says "Months after winning a national title, Harvard’s debate team has fallen to a group of New York prison inmates." While you could say that about random people from Harvard, you'd expect a team that won a national title in debate to be somewhat good.
Additionally, a bunch of cocky elitists from an Ivy League school probably didn't prepare in for this little shindig to the same extent as their opponents.
I'm curious to know how you think being in prison that gives a person an advantage that an elitist college student doesn't have
In fact, you might say their opponents were captivated with their training...
Er what does that mean? If anything the prison inmates were at a disadvantage in debate preparation as their access to the resources such as books and the Internet is severely limited.
Inmates face any number of challenges preparing for debate, including a lack of access to the Internet and a requirement for prison administration approval of necessary written materials, which can delay access to information.
Look at the position that the good left-wing indoctrinated Harvardites were asked to take: That forcing public schools to educate any and all children of illegal aliens is not necessarily a good thing.
Um, no. That was the position the inmates had to argue. The skill of debater is not whether the debater believes in the position personally but what arguments they can make for the position they took. In some formats, the positions are not decided until the debate so the teams have to prepare for both sides.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
I'm just wondering. Is one of these guys named "Lex Luthor" or "Padraic Ratigan"?
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
1. Harvard doesn't necessarily mean genuinely smart, believe me I have first-hand experience. Additionally, a bunch of cocky elitists from an Ivy League school probably didn't prepare in for this little shindig to the same extent as their opponents. In fact, you might say their opponents were captivated with their training....
Or it could be that the prisoners had a lot more time to dedicate to preparation, the advantage of experience since the Harvard team has probably just assembled, and even did a legitimately good job.
2. Look at the position that the good left-wing indoctrinated Harvardites were asked to take: That forcing public schools to educate any and all children of illegal aliens is not necessarily a good thing.
They can use all of their technical debate skills all day long, but you know that they secretly wanted to lose. After all, they heartily approve of forcing taxpayers to pay for free schooling that teaches illegal alien kids that America is evil & racist while failing to teach them English, because English literacy == racism. After all, they go to private prep schools and don't have to see any of those kids, so it's all well and good if the the lower classes have to put up with them.
Yeah, I'm certain the "bunch of cocky elitists" secretly wanted to lose to a bunch of prisoners.
I stole this Sig
Do they also teach them how to cook? That seems like it will be useful when they apply their degree to their McDonalds' job.
They cook at McDonald's?
1. Harvard doesn't necessarily mean genuinely smart, believe me I have first-hand experience. Additionally, a bunch of cocky elitists from an Ivy League school probably didn't prepare in for this little shindig to the same extent as their opponents. In fact, you might say their opponents were captivated with their training....
So how do you rationalize the prisoners beating West Point as well?
I stole this Sig
you'd expect a team that won a national title in debate to be somewhat good.
It is unlikely that it was the same people. After winning the national title, it is likely that the seniors left the team, and were replaced by incoming freshmen.
Liberal arts majors on the outside never have to deal with nuanced and subtle issues like that.
Either the customer wants fries with that, or he doesn't.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
It acknowledges and legitimizes humanity and worth of those in prison. I wonder if the inmates have an advantage in that they may be a decade or more older than their college competitors, and thus have more experiences and maturity over them...
(My subject was originally titled "This is awesome", not "koick", but got wiped somehow when submitting.)
1. Harvard doesn't necessarily mean genuinely smart, believe me I have first-hand experience.
Maybe. Nobody has ever managed to work out what they are actually saying: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
Was referring to the education program as amazing, not them beating some Harvard weenies.
Harvard's a *legacy* school!
You don't go there for an education, you go to make "contacts".
It's basically just a papermill for rich kids to buy degrees, and you expect them to be educated? LOL - the whole reason they're buying a degree from a legacy school in the first place is so they don't have to do any work.
That's funny, I've always heard Harvard is just full of Master Debaters.
Pretending this is my office full of bitter coworkers..
I couldn't help but think, while reading this story, that it'd be perfect for a "based on real life" movie script. Has all the ingredients to be a "feel good, downtrodden guys make good" film.
I think most people are unaware of what constitutes debate.
How To Speak Gibberish & Win A National Debate Title
http://www.theamericanconserva...
Hell I'd let them win too, no way I'm running afoul of dudes in maximum security prison!
You're really trying to portray Harvard as a place where the average undergrad simply bought their degree outright, and presumably has no business attending a world-class institution? Really? The legacy rule may be stupid, but speaking as if it dominates their entire undergraduate program sounds positively moronic. Plenty of rather brilliant people with no legacy have exited Harvard, including very recently.
Not to mention the admissions department doesn't simply tell the entire school what to do and who to accept for *everything*. Speaking as if not just the university at large but each and every club or intercollegiate team are beholden to legacies is doubly moronic. You truly believe the faculty who spend their time with the debate team care so little about their job they'll just accept every damn kid named Kennedy or Rockefeller with no regard to talent and waste their time chaperoning rich morons about the country losing debates right and left?
Legacy lets some idiots through, yes. Harvard gets ***WAY*** too much money, literally more than they know what to do with, while good state schools and smaller private schools get less than 1/10th as much endowment for far more students, yes. But they're not just a pile of cash-crazed morons who worship at an altar of solid gold and let the rich kids do *anything* they want. They're still a fantastic school.
Please note that counting Wal-Mart as a prison is not as ridiculous as it might sound--they have been known to lock workers inside the store:
Pretty sure Wal-Mart sells bolt cutters. Just sayin'
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
"..... and that concludes my opening statement. You got a problem with that, punk?"
Have gnu, will travel.
Citizenship has little to do with it since Plyler v. Doe, and I would imagine that ones legality in the country would not come into play with regards to qualifying for such a program while serving a sentence in prison... however the illegal alien may find themselves deported along with their degree after completion, while the citizen would be forced to go look for work with their degree and a local criminal record.
Help Brendan pay off his student loans
Illegal means forbidden by law. Are you implying that illegality is determined by race? That sounds racist to me.
Alien means from another country, and does not specify race. Most aliens in the United States are Mexican or other Latin Americans, which means a Spanish (Caucasian) and/or Amerind ancestry. Racism usually means anti-negro in the U.S.
In short, your claim is nonsensical and borderline incoherent.
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" liberal arts education so that when the students leave prison they are able to find meaningful work."
A liberal arts degree is infinitely better than no degree at all.
I'm glad to see prisoners getting a chance at education. One theoretical intent of prison is reform; our society hasn't done very well with that.
Sure, some prisoners are hopeless and would be a danger if ever released ... leave them inside. But give others a chance.
Have you always been psychotic? If so, clearly you've forgotten your meds. Otherwise, I suggest you see a healthcare professional specializing in the profoundly disturbed immediately.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
It sure doesn't. In fact, it may signal that you're dealing with an utter dolt:
George W. Bush. I rest my case.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
You've pretty much got to do something about that first. It's a central tenant of Puritanism. Not sure how you deal with that. From a purely mechanical standpoint our economic right wing (e.g. the rich) noticed our religious right wing (e.g. blue collars) would throw their economic concerns to the wind for social issues. Stuff like Gun Rights, Abortion, Gay Marriage, etc, etc. We've pretty much defused Gun Rights (the left dropped it) and Gay Marriage (somehow or another they won that battle) but I'll be damned if I can figure out Abortion. There's a sizable portion of the population that strongly feels that you should be punished for any action that has negative consequences. That mistakes should hurt. That's pretty much Puritanism in a nutshell. And I don't know how to cure them of that feeling.
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The entrance standards and IQ bell curve for prisons aren't impressive. Harvard has very high standards (possibly the highest in the US, certainly in the top 4), particularly if daddy isn't an alumnus or a large $ contributor. At least on the surface, if my child were a losing Harvard debater I would question whether he was trying and whether his teachers were any good. A child not trying might not deserve the $70k investment. Incompetent professors certainly don't deserve my money, and I'd be looking for a better school.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
I took an algorithms course at Harvard. It was just as hard as anything I took at MIT, and I took 18.313 back when G.C. Rota was still alive (greatest math teacher ever, by the way).
Of course there are people who are there because they're "legacies", and I suppose they take different courses, but the kids who get in because they're smart are pretty damned smart.
As for left-wing indoctrination, Harvard is a bastion of the establishment. The prep school crowd in particular has been thoroughly indoctrinated in the perfection of capitalism and the moral entitlement of the ruling classes. It doesn't mean that some of them aren't apostates, of course.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
And leaving could also jeopardize the jobs of their coworkers:
I don't know if Walmart still does this:
This type of employee abuse should have been nipped in the bud by federal, state, or local labor authorities, but apparently it wasn't.
Apparently these are people who fear losing their jobs. Probably they have themselves and family members to support and don't think that they can easily get another job if they lose the one they have.
Oh, that is certain. Which is why the "locking them in" is pointless (I've certainly had deeply stupid managers in my life as well, but still: pointless). Telling someone he can't leave will keep anyone who cares about his job, chaining a door adds nothing at all to that.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Yeah, and if they used the bolt cutters to get out, they'd end up in a real prison.
Learn to love Alaska
Free doctor is the real deal with going to prison and before the ACA some broke the law just to get into the system.
TFA says it's inmates with violent criminal records in a maximum security facility.
I suppose Harvard students on their debate team are good academic performers and are out of the school in five years.
You have a lot more time for honing your skills on a prison debate team.
Lifelong learning FTW!
and have a lot of time on our hands.
We need a "+1 -- nice sig" moderation.
Protip: If you need to go back 187 years to prove a point about today, your point just might be abject bullshit.
Yeah, we really need a "-1, Stupid" option.
"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
a liberal arts education? bwahahaha
you lost me with:
"aims to provide inmates with a liberal arts education so that when the students leave prison they are able to find meaningful work"
Among people with college degrees in the first place, that might be true if we consider places like Wal-Mart to be private run prisons.
Please note that counting Wal-Mart as a prison is not as ridiculous as it might sound--they have been known to lock workers inside the store:
I used to work in a place that was surprisingly prison-like. We all had to wear orange, could basically only do things when told to do it, conditions were dangerous, the entire facility was fenced in, had controlled access, people coming in were constantly searched for forbidden items, and it was constantly patrolled by armed guards. I used to work at an airport.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
Granted I don't know who Harvard sent but you've already postulated they didn't send in their most experienced debaters. That's a lot of assumptions there.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Cell phones, anyone? And I'd be quite surprised if the store land line didn't allow you to call 911. I mean, a guy with a broken ankle shouldn't be dragging himself to the ER anyway.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
Now instead of beating people to death, they just talk them to death! Hmmm sounds like perfect training for a high up Govt. job....
Life is in a state of dynamic equilibrium, it both blows and sucks
No, that's not how that works - false imprisonment is an actual crime, escaping it is not. Anyway, turns out here were fire doors the employees were told not to use. It's the fear of losing the job that keeps them there, not locking the doors. Locking the doors is just a braindead manager doing what they do best - making an ass of himself.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
I only have experience in one prison and teaching only classes in statistics but a good many of the guys I come across have little or no education but are enormously intelligent.
A prison acquaintance committed a truly heinous crime when young, spent 30+ years in prison and earned batchelor's and master's degrees while incarcerated. All this without access to the internet or much in the way of books for resources.
The really painful part about teaching there is dealing with human capital that is going to waste.