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Makers Compete To Produce US Army's Next Official Handgun (military.com)
HughPickens.com writes: After 30 years in use, the U.S. Army's official handgun, the Beretta M9 pistol, is being retired. The AP reports that firearms manufacturers are competing for a rare chance to sell the U.S. Army a new handgun that would replace the current Cold War-era model. Critics say the M9 is too bulky for small-handed shooters. Troops who fought in Iraq and Afghanistan complain it's not as hard-hitting as they would like, and it can't easily accommodate the accessories now common in the civilian firearms market, such as swappable gun-sights or gun-mounted lights. "It's a little one size-fits-most" says Rodney Briggs.. "It's been around for a really, really long time, and it's just old and outdated." Read more, below.
Hugh Pickens continues: Army has a lengthy list of requirements. Among them, it wants a handgun with an adjustable grip that can easily fit large or small hands. That way, shooters don't have to adjust their grip mid-fight to operate hard-to-reach buttons or levers. The gun should accommodate sights that make it easier to shoot in low light. It should have a rail on which soldiers can easily attach additional equipment, like infrared pointers. The military also wants a gun that can be equipped with a suppressor, which muffles the sound of gunshots. Beretta intends to enter a new pistol called the APX into the competition. The new gun is a major engineering departure from the M9. It has a polymer frame like more recent handguns and can meet the Army's other requirements. Beretta has publicly complained that the government never formally requested efforts to improve its M9, which the company said is a standard procedure for upgrading platforms. "If you look at the history for a variety of weapons, you'll find all along we'll have used spiral development, product improvement. Where was the requirement they notify prime contractor with an opportunity to fix the problem?" says Howard Yellen, a military adviser for Beretta.
Hugh Pickens continues: Army has a lengthy list of requirements. Among them, it wants a handgun with an adjustable grip that can easily fit large or small hands. That way, shooters don't have to adjust their grip mid-fight to operate hard-to-reach buttons or levers. The gun should accommodate sights that make it easier to shoot in low light. It should have a rail on which soldiers can easily attach additional equipment, like infrared pointers. The military also wants a gun that can be equipped with a suppressor, which muffles the sound of gunshots. Beretta intends to enter a new pistol called the APX into the competition. The new gun is a major engineering departure from the M9. It has a polymer frame like more recent handguns and can meet the Army's other requirements. Beretta has publicly complained that the government never formally requested efforts to improve its M9, which the company said is a standard procedure for upgrading platforms. "If you look at the history for a variety of weapons, you'll find all along we'll have used spiral development, product improvement. Where was the requirement they notify prime contractor with an opportunity to fix the problem?" says Howard Yellen, a military adviser for Beretta.
law enforcement is down-sizing their handguns as well. the .40SW is being replaced by the 9MM.
Given that US police seem to hit ten innocent bystanders for every bad guy they shoot, I'd recommend they downsize to Nerf Guns.
I was in the USMC right at the switch from the 1911 to the M9.
Problems with the M9:
- Fragile.
- Trigger return spring easily lost when grips removed for cleaning (this renders the weapon useless).
- 9mm, not exactly a hard-hitting round.
- Locking block fractures and cracks. Not a Browning link/linkless tilt barrel design, so unnecessarily complicated.
- Magazines too fragile compared to 1911 magazines.
Good things:
- Accurate
- Easily controlled during rapid fire
"Critics say the M9 is too bulky for small-handed shooters"
Read: women.
Seriously, people: infantry combat is STILL one of those old-fashioned things where size and strength are really fucking important. You're not going to be able to design a smaller, lighter gun for petite little hands that ALSO has (as the rest of the article explains is needed badly) an increased stopping-power (which is primarily about the kinetic energy striking the target).
"Finesse" all the Ranger tests you want, but "average woman A" will not perform as well in combat as "average man B".* This is just another example of how/why.
* that said, there are a crapton of wastrels, layabouts, and good-for-nothings in the lower bracket of the male bell curve that will be outperformed by exceptional women because the women have the mental attitude necessary to be successful, which can get you a long way.
-Styopa
Aren't reliability and weight big concerns with the M9?
I'm not sure why they don't just switch to a Glock in .45. Cheap, durable, repairable, cost-effective, and very reliable.
The importance of the sidearm is decreasing in warfare, so if you're at the point where you need to use one, you'd probably rather have .45. Being able to carry more ammunition for a pistol doesn't seem like it would be the concern it once was.
What was the joke in WW2?
The German and American officer meet on the field. The German officer pulls out his Walther P38 and shoots the American. The American pulls out his 1911, kills the German, picks up the P38 as a souvenir, and limps off to the field hospital.
law enforcement is down-sizing their handguns as well. the .40SW is being replaced by the 9MM.
Given that US police seem to hit ten innocent bystanders for every bad guy they shoot, I'd recommend they downsize to Nerf Guns.
Indeed. There is a lot written about the militarisation of the police. But, they've only been militarised with respect to the hardware, not with respect to actually knowing what they are doing.
Similar to the upcoming US election results
Short of innovations like those Glock brought to the table over three decades ago, the semi automatic pistol has not changed much in the last century, and the previous standard service pistol of the US military served for almost three quarters of a century (and STILL is the preferred sidearm of those who kill people and break things for a living). The standard issue rifle has been so for more than half a century.
30 years does not seem especially long for something like this.
What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?
Aren't reliability and weight big concerns with the M9?
They're big concerns with the 1911, too. Even a commander-style pistol is still plenty heavy. And the 1911 has extra stuff to go wrong, especially if you load it up with an extra safety as Kimber does (along with many others.)
I'm not sure why they don't just switch to a Glock in .45. Cheap, durable, repairable, cost-effective, and very reliable.
Well, they cited the issue of fitting the hands of smaller shooters, so in the modern day none of these firearms are really applicable. They should probably be looking at a SIG.
The importance of the sidearm is decreasing in warfare, so if you're at the point where you need to use one, you'd probably rather have .45.
H&K M&P .45, then. The trigger is considered to be not that great, but there are mods that improve it, so perhaps with a little revision it would make a nice piece. Three grip sizes, external extractor. However, they're going to want to stick with 9mm because of the cost consideration, and the modern style of never using one bullet when five will do.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
A gen 4 Glock comes with multiple backstraps --- I can pick the one I want and get the hand size I want. My hands are too small for a gen 3 Glock 20 or 21 but can grip a gen 4 21 with ease.
Finding God in a Dog
Stopping power is all too often overrated (I say this as a .45 1911 pistol owner).
You'll never get someone to fall backwards (let alone fly backwards across the room), even if you used a .50 Desert Eagle to do it... that's Hollywood crap.
Fact is, even a well-placed 9mm round can kill instantly if you hit the attacker in the right spot... but most shootings don;t really involve accuracy.
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
all urban legend.
Look it up with experts who keep real stats on actual shootings, military 9mm vs 45 .ACP the 115 gr. 9mm is slightly MORE effective than 230 gr, 45 hardball.
And neither one very good compared to hollow point.
While my .45 makes a very convincing argument, my Super Blackhawk ends the argument once and for all. :-)
Yes, it may be penis envy, but it's fun as hell, expensive to shoot, and looks great.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
I once talked with a law enforcement officer who was deeply involved in choosing the next sidearm that a major city's police department would be carrying, and he said it really came down to two choices for them:
If you want durable and reliable, you go with a Sig Sauer.
If you want durable, reliable, and light, you go with a Glock.
Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
Reading the summary, it sounds like the army has looked at a Glock brochure and just listed everything there as their requirements.
Of course this is a military procurement so the requirements will change at the behest of vested interests until the gun is unsuitable for the dozens of new roles it's required to fill and many times the original estimated cost. Then it will be put into production and the soldiers will be forced to use them -- then the smart soldiers will just bring their own Glocks to work.
"Grab them by the pussy" -- President of the United States of America
I also don't like the extreme variability in weight between the gun fully loaded and when it gets near empty
Yeah, I hate having 17 chances to hit my target instead of 7. What a pain in the ass, eh?
Seriously though, in a defensive encounter the last thing on my mind is "Oh no, my gun is getting lighter."
Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
Off-topic, but hopefully interesting. .40 S&W was invented because .45 ACP already existed.
Basically, the FBI standardized on 9mm instead of .45 ACP for various reasons. They then got into a shootout with armored criminals and "learned" what everyone already knew: 9mm doesn't have enough energy for serious work.
They should have picked the 45 in the first place, but rather than admit that they chose wrong, they invented a shitty new cartridge for political reasons. Many police departments followed their lead because they didn't know any better and assumed that the FBI had developed a better round.
Because of this, most law enforcement agencies were, for decades, stuck with a low energy 10mm-short round with excessive pressure that wears guns out prematurely and is needlessly painful to train with.
Today, it is almost random. Lots of departments around here aren't even standardized, but let the officer choose 9mm, 40 or 45. This isn't as crazy as it sounds. Each squad car has an M-4 between the front seats that, in most situations, would make an appearance long before the inability to share pistol magazines became a problem.
See that "Preview" button?
20 round standard mag and modern as all hell. The small caliber/high velocity ammo (same principle as the 5.56 AR rifles) hits just as hard if not harder than .45 ACP/9mm/whatever if you take into account that the military cannot use hollowpoints.
S&W M&P .45, that is. Has the added benefit of being a US company.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"