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Full Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement Intellectual Property Chapter Analyzed (freezenet.ca)

Dangerous_Minds writes: Freezenet seems to be the first website to publish a full run-down of the final draft of the Intellectual Property chapter in the Trans-Pacific Partnership. The leak was published on Wikileaks earlier. The analysis seems to confirm what the EFF has said, saying that the chapter "confirms our worst fears about the agreement, and dashes the few hopes that we held out that its most onerous provisions wouldn't survive to the end of the negotiations." The analysis focuses mainly on copyright enforcement on the Internet and the impact the chapter would have on personal devices, VPN services, and ISPs. One noteworthy find by Freezenet is the inclusion of a "TPP Commission" which would decide when different countries are supposed to meet outside of the 10-year cycle, discussing "market circumstances" of "the development of new pharmaceutical products." What other roles the TPP Commission takes on is unclear given that it is not mentioned anywhere else in the chapter.

109 comments

  1. So to summarize... by tkrotchko · · Score: 2

    So to summarize the effect of TPP in one semi-sentence....

    "....and the horse you rode in on..."

    --
    You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
    1. Re:So to summarize... by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, more like by the horse they rode in on.

      This is yet another example of idiot governments rolling over and giving corporations everything they want, and utterly failing to serve the people who voted for them.

      This shit needs to stop. Because governments should be looking out for our interests, instead of lying to us and telling us what is good for corporations benefits us.

      Welcome to the oligarchy kids. We're all pretty much fucked now.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    2. Re:So to summarize... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Government's don't strike such deals out of idiocy so much as greed.

    3. Re:So to summarize... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "This is yet another example of idiot governments rolling over and giving corporations everything they want, and utterly failing to serve the people who voted for them."

      You're under the dangerous idea that they ever worked for you.

      First, our brains are much worse at reality and thinking than thought. Science on reasoning:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYmi0DLzBdQ

      Protectionism for the rich and big business by state intervention, radical market interference.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHj2GaPuEhY#t=349

      Why you can't have capitalist democracy

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mxp_wgFWQo&feature=youtu.be&list=PLKR2GeygdHomOZeVKx3P0fqH58T3VghOj&t=724

      From war is a racket:

      "I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil intersts in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested."[p. 10]

      "War is a racket. ...It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives." [p. 23]
      "The general public shoulders the bill [for war]. This bill renders a horrible accounting. Newly placed gravestones. Mangled bodies. Shattered minds. Broken hearts and homes. Economic instability. Depression and all its attendant miseries. Back-breaking taxation for generations and generations." [p. 24]

      General Butler is especially trenchant when he looks at post-war casualties. He writes with great emotion about the thousands of tramautized soldiers, many of who lose their minds and are penned like animals until they die, and he notes that in his time, returning veterans are three times more likely to die prematurely than those who stayed home.

      http://www.amazon.com/War-Racket-Antiwar-Americas-Decorated/dp/0922915865/

      Some history on US imperialism by us corporations.

      https://kurukshetra1.wordpress.com/2015/09/27/a-brief-history-of-imperialism-and-state-violence-in-colombia/

      What happens when government tries to help its people - greece

      http://williamblum.org/

      US distribution of wealth

      https://imgur.com/a/FShfb/

      http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

    4. Re:So to summarize... by davester666 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yes, we have the best gov't money can buy.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    5. Re:So to summarize... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They're idiots because their greed has blinded them to the destructive outcomes that may befall them when they push on the public too hard.

    6. Re:So to summarize... by Mitreya · · Score: 1

      ...utterly failing to serve the people who voted for them.

      People don't vote for someone, at least not recently.
      People either vote against the person/party they hate most or they vote for [R or D]-affiliated candidate.

    7. Re:So to summarize... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The TPP overwhelmingly benefits rich people ie stockholders. Politicians are rich people and so are most of the people they know, certainly the ones they know personally anyway. Thus the TPP is a great deal for politicians and everyone they 'know' and supports them

    8. Re:So to summarize... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're only fucked if you can't get guns and use them.

    9. Re:So to summarize... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. you are announcing everybody's defeat in advance. nice anti-rally you got goin.

      Also this... from the summary

      One noteworthy find by Freezenet is the inclusion of a "TPP Commission"

      Who in the fuck thinks the world asked for this? Appoint yourselves to global commissions much dickheads? A vote would be what to what? (yea/nay) there are not billions of people for this. there are billions of people against this.

      There is a lot of lip service guidance on the internet... but people take vows worldwide to not let this shit happen. foreign OR domestic.

      Meet international Jewry. Yes, they are Jews no matter what *-ism you subscribe to.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Froman

      18 trillion in debt.
      http://www.usdebtclock.org/

      Tell me they aren't Jews
      http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/156146/yellen-at-the-fed

      I forget if this link came from you? But it's a good layman's breakdown of the TPP.
      http://economixcomix.com/home/tpp/

      Here's the problem... you can't easily rally public support when the Jews own basically all the media conduits. Hollywood, news, TV programs, Facebook, etc. Your picket signs are literally not a threat either. If you don't like it I suggest you prevent it.

      I'll take [What was not an accident] for $500 Alex.

    10. Re:So to summarize... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As usual, the USA will unilaterally ignore anything in the TPP, while expecting everyone else to abide by it, so in practise it won't have much effect on anything.

    11. Re:So to summarize... by fatwilbur · · Score: 0

      instead of lying to us and telling us what is good for corporations benefits us.

      See, this sounds great and all, but really doesn't make any sense.

      Corporations (or businesses) and the vehicle through which private money can get products to consumers in the US. You wouldn't have widespread professional employment options without corporations, which drives your middle class. And the consumerism of that middle class drives over 70% of the massive economy. You would be fucked, and a third world country without that.

      No, pretty much your entire comfy, Starbucks sippin' existence is because the government serves the interests of corporations. Always fun to bite the hand that feeds, though.

    12. Re:So to summarize... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And this is WHY they shouldn't have been the ONLY people allowed at the secret negotiations.

    13. Re:So to summarize... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I believe it's mostly 'idiocy' in the form of basic psychology. The secret of lobbying is to meet personally. When you know someone personally and have met him many times, it becomes difficult to act directly against this person's demands, no matter how unreasonable or selfish they may be. That and a few gifts will do the trick. Politicians do not regularly have lunch with their voters and consumers have almost no lobby, at least not a powerful one with good personal contacts.

    14. Re:So to summarize... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Only as long as they still have a head on their neck.

      But I dare say we still have a lot of time 'til we're at that point again.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    15. Re:So to summarize... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      People are only able to vote for or against what their masters let them vote for or against. It's not like there has been a really independent (and I don't even mean "not affiliated with either side of The Party" but rather "not in the pocket of some business that pretty much propped up the puppet") candidate available in any election where the outcome actually had any kind of meaning. At least none that had a nonzero chance of winning.

      Essentially, you may vote what corporation(s) get to rip you off. Not whether or not they get to.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    16. Re:So to summarize... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Please do. I won't hold you back.

      Don't expect me to do it, though. Not that I'd value the life of a politician, but what good does whacking the sock puppet do if you can't hit the hand inside?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    17. Re:So to summarize... by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      No, what we have is a broken form of Capitalism in which the corporations get to skew the rules, change them as they wish, have governments entrench things in law which fuck up the system and tilt the playing field in their favor.

      They get to have H1B visas, a government who keeps extending copyright so multi-billion dollar corporations can continue to profit, and actually be the agency to enforce those copyrights.

      What we have now is an oligarchy, in which the multi-national, multi-billion dollar corporations are being represented in this treat, at the expense of everybody.

      We have an inherently corrupt and broken version of Capitalism, which pretty much demonstrates that Capitalism will always be broken, and there is no possibility of there ever being a "free" market; because markets are never free. They're always manipulated, controlled, distorted, or subject to trade groups who ensure nobody else can come in and play.

      It gives us a trend in which the top few percent of the world population own well over half the wealth.

      It is not a healthy system, it is not a sustainable system, it is not a fair system.

      What we have now is a demonstration that, with bullshit treaties like this, societies are being raped and pillaged for maximizing shareholder value.

      What we have now is destroying what we had, and putting us all in a race to the bottom to compete for the lowest possible wages, undoing decades of progress on working conditions and wages.

      I used to believe the bullshit you say, and I have the shelf full of books sitting behind me,

      It's all fucking lies. In its current incarnation, Capitalism is a fucking death spiral for all but the wealthy and the corporations.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    18. Re: So to summarize... by macsimcon · · Score: 1

      The last I checked, Jews weren't the majority of the CEOs, nor are they the majority of the leaders of the OECD countries.

      American business has long hated Jews (well before World War II) so I'd love to hear your explanation for how Jews are running everything.

      Perhaps your ire should be directed at the greedy sociopaths who want ever more power and money, rather than channeling Henry Ford with your anti-semitism.

    19. Re:So to summarize... by knightghost · · Score: 1

      Except that it's no longer the USA. No megacorp really has a home country any more. They play countries against each other for the best profit.

    20. Re:So to summarize... by DuckDodgers · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure if your message was an appeal to libertarianism or not. I'll address the libertarian case.

      If the libertarians had their way and dismantled the government, Microsoft, Google, Comcast, GE, GM, IBM, Disney, Walmart, etc... would just buy it back on even more favorable terms. The only way to dismantle most of the government and keep it dismantled is if you have a highly educated majority of voters that keep blocking moves to restore it. But once you take most of the government, any majority of highly educated voters you had is going to fade away.

    21. Re:So to summarize... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only way it is ever going to stop is if we stop voting for politicians that support it and start supporting ones that will fight against it. No more of this voting for the lesser of two evils...that just boils the water a bit more slowly.

      This upcoming election cycle is going to be a very important one. With Bernie Sanders we have one of those rare opportunities where someone who has made their career opposing the oligarchies and corporate control of government has an actual chance at the white house.

      Now is not the time to give up, now is the time to fight harder.

    22. Re:So to summarize... by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      And this is why members of Congress should be required by law to spend at least 48 weeks per year in the districts that they serve. Meet physically in D.C. three times per year—for the opening session, for the State of the Union address, and for the closing session. Use a multi-way video conferencing system for everything else. Make the lobbyists work for it by flying to 535 different places instead of being able to talk to everybody in one place.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    23. Re:So to summarize... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because governments should be looking out for our interests

      Since when? Since they told you that in grade school right? Alongside with "it's okay to eat McDonald's", "Trust that Police man with the taser" and "Here's a little plastic piggy bank from your trusted good old bank, who when you're old enough will enslave you with debt".

      Oh feeling low on this news? let me help you with some anti depressants. Oh wait you're also overdue for a flu vaccine. BTW did you hear? they just upped the fluoride levels in your water in your local area and have been constantly spraying toxins on your genetically modified food for the past X amount of years.

      Meanwhile live your life based on morals and ethics set down by a legal system that gets constantly circumvented by the rich. Mandated by corrupt politicians. Who have one focus and one focus alone and that's molest the last fibers of our civilization by endorsing wars which kill millions of innocents on behalf of the military industrial complex and big oil.

      But that's right, you only seem to take notice when they threaten to regulate your bittorrent usage. Who's the real asshole of the story? Let me start by giving you a mirror asswipe.

    24. Re:So to summarize... by KGIII · · Score: 1

      You don't actually know any Libertarians or understand the ideology, do you?

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    25. Re:So to summarize... by dryeo · · Score: 1

      A couple of weeks with no food in the stores and no gas at the gas stations would do it.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    26. Re:So to summarize... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      That's basically why you'll see anything and everything else happen before something like this happens.

      Freedom? Pffft, who gives a shit? We have food, we have TV, we have cheap gas.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    27. Re: So to summarize... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a) The last I checked, Jews weren't the majority of the CEOs, nor are they the majority of the leaders of the OECD countries.

      b) American business has long hated Jews (well before World War II) so I'd love to hear your explanation for how Jews are running everything.

      c) Perhaps your ire should be directed at the greedy sociopaths who want ever more power and money, rather than channeling Henry Ford with your anti-semitism.

      Ok so here we have the typical bullshit response I expected. Relate one at a time, use notepad if you are too stupid to comprehend.

      a) Directly refute nothing I said, but change the subject.

      b) Toss in some hate (appeal to emotion) and how you would love (appeal to emotion) in an actual statement that is absolutely congruent with what I said.

      b) [they hate] but [you would love] OK GOT IT. I guess I'm all subliminally hypnotized now.

      b) You stated American business has long hated Jews, but ask me why. Ask yourself why.

      American business has long hated Jews ... explanation for how Jews are running everything.

      c) more appeal to emotion inbound with: [my ire]
      c) more emotion [greedy sociopaths] needlessly redundant: [want more power and money]
      c) Then compare me to Henry Ford and imply I give a flying fuck about who is Semitic.

      You think like a total cunt. There's your emotion from me. I am correct, again.

      If they weren't Jewish... let's say hypothetically they were Chinese. Would it be anti-asianism? Do you even realize how stupid you sound though? The cries of anti-Semitism fall on deaf ears. The only people who actually give a shit about who is Semite or not are in Israel. Semite pride can fuck right off too. The world literally does not give a flying fuck about their Semitic heritage. What matters is what the actual fuck they do, even if they were some miscellaneous tribe from the Amazon rainforest or Britain's top models. And even further debunking your retarded ass appeal-to-emotion cunt shit... Palestinians are more Semitic than Israelis. Google at your fingertips, find out for the fuck of it. You will find out that nobody actually gives a fuck either.

      Jews are not some protected dickheads that just get to run the world reserve currency (USD) 18 trillion into the red everybody says fuck it.. hey guys.. stop the hate.. you are just mad and jealous because they are Semites. You fucking douche. Fuck yourself. All Semite/not-Semite concerns I categorically dismiss as nobody gives a fuck, including me.

      Now addressing the actual cunning stunt you attempted... is Henry Ford Hitler and so am I? Are we all just the fucking anti-Semite trio of Earth... on a mission to remove the Semites? FUCKING MORON NOBODY GIVES A FUCK ABOUT SEMITE. IT IS A JEW RUSE. A SIDESHOW. A LIE. Mother fuckers are playing the financial markets like gypsies at 3 card monte. And not every anti-Christian is a Jew. There are lots of just wandering booger eaters meandering through industries buying and selling and managing paperwork all that shit. Even building shit. In Hollywood they pay even non-Jews, non-Semites to act. They are paid to perform whatever monkey shit script they are handed and they take the shekels. Fuck all if it's socially destructive, they do it anyway. Just a little? No. To the fucking max.

      If the Jews had even a fraction of a clue they would not be stealing from the global public on a frenzied scale with a mother fucking force field over their shithole. They wouldn't be getting stabbed on a daily. People would not be ramming their cars into bus stops in Israel. Israeli's wouldn't have to walk around with sub machine guns if they weren't fucking dickheads.

      https://encrypted.google.com/#q=urban+dictionary+jewed

      Did Henry Ford stop by everybody's house on Earth and take a poll on who is Semite and who isn't Semite? Or did he just see what the fuck Jews do? Did Henry Ford coin the word "goy"

    28. Re:So to summarize... by DuckDodgers · · Score: 1

      Actually, I do understand it. My point is that regardless of their vision of a free market competition that respects individual rights and allows competition to cure all ills, the reality is that libertarian law leads to oligarchy.

    29. Re:So to summarize... by KGIII · · Score: 1

      You're confusing Libertarianism with an economic model. It is not. Libertarianism is a political ideology. Laissez faire capitalism is entirely different and is only subscribed to by a (actually) small group of noisy Libertarians. I'm a dyed in the wool Libertarian and am more often mistaken for a Socialist which is just plain silly but much of what I believe does end up mirroring Socialism in results, but the routes and reasonings are different.

      So, no... You don't understand - as is evidenced by your confusing it with an economic model. You just think you do. That's okay and I don't blame you - the fault is not really your own. We allow a whole bunch of people into the tent and we can't really stop the vocal few but they do not actually represent the majority. Also, silencing them would kind of be antithetical for us to do.

      I don't really like Wikipedia but the first four paragraphs (that's all you'd really need) of the article on Libertarianism is pretty accurate, I guess. The whole article is not bad, not bad at all. I know some of the authors and have been involved in the party since the late 70s or early 80s. I'd be more than happy to help you clear up any misconceptions you have, if you're honestly interested.

      Ayn Rand was an idiot and Rand Paul is not a Libertarian. Libertarians are actually (more often then not) quite far to the left - further left than any elected Democrat except maybe Bernie. I already have all the freedoms I need and most of the rights I want - I can buy the rest or just get away with breaking the law. What I want is you to have the freedoms you deserve and the rights to act on those freedoms.

      I want you safe, healthy, fed, and able to risk making bad decisions. I want a strong social safety net. It's cheaper to avoid problems than it is to fix them. You being productive means I can be more financially comfortable. However, that's rather low on the list of priorities. The important thing is that I want you to be in a position to enjoy and make use of your rights. I want single payer health care (and will happily pay the taxes needed) to ensure that you have the chance to do with your body what you want. Businesses have rights but they're pretty damned low as a priority. The you, the commons, and then what's left we can allow for corporations. The individual and the commons must be first.

      I am a Libertarian. There's no such thing as a free market. There can never be such. Zealots are stupid, no single pure system will ever work on a large scale. I, I am a Libertarian. You have now met one. You might actually be one and not even know it. The "liberty" is kind of in the word. It's about you - not businesses and not markets.

      Also, to clear up a bit that might be confusing. Freedoms vs Rights ala Liberties. I have the freedom to kill you. I do not have the right to do so. I am not at liberty to take your life. Those should suit for the definitions, well enough. I'm free to help with anything else you might wish to know. The email is also valid and is occasionally checked.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    30. Re:So to summarize... by DuckDodgers · · Score: 1

      I linked political libertarianism with economic laissez-faire policy because my understanding of libertarianism as a political system is that primary focus on individual autonomy leads inevitabley to minarchy. The most likely - arguably, inevitable - economic system under minarchy is laissez-faire capitalism.

      Your idea of safety nets leads me to believe most people would call you a Civil Libertarian, which is far different from a plain Libertarian.

      If you want to give me links to more discussions, articles, etc... to explain how you can hold your positions but still call yourself Libertarian, I'm interested.

      I apologize for being hostile with my opening comments a few posts earlier. But I still believe minarchism leads to oligarchy. When you dismantle the government institutions to protect people from business corruption, sooner or later a set of wealthy people with low scruples will buy enough lawmakers to recreate those same institutions under more corrupt terms. We the voters have to watch our elected watchers endlessly and root out corruption, but dismantling our oversight institutions will ultimately only make our problems worse.

    31. Re:So to summarize... by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Libertarianism (Latin: liber, "free") is a political philosophy that upholds liberty as its principal objective. Libertarians seek to maximize autonomy and freedom of choice, emphasizing political freedom, voluntary association, and the primacy of individual judgment.[1][2]

      Libertarians generally share a skepticism of authority; however, they diverge on the scope of their opposition to existing political and economic systems. Various schools of libertarian thought offer a range of views regarding the legitimate functions of state and private power, often calling to restrict or even to wholly dissolve coercive social institutions. Rather than embodying a singular, rigid systematic theory or ideology, libertarianism has been applied as an umbrella term to a wide range of sometimes discordant political ideas through modern history.

      Some libertarians advocate laissez-faire capitalism and strong private property rights,[3] such as in land, infrastructure, and natural resources. Others, notably libertarian socialists,[4] seek to abolish capitalism and private ownership of the means of production in favor of their common or cooperative ownership and management.[5][6] An additional line of division is between minarchists and anarchists. While minarchists think that a minimal centralized government is necessary, anarchists propose to completely eliminate the state.[7][8]

      The term libertarianism originally referred to a philosophical belief in free will but later became associated with anti-state socialism and Enlightenment-influenced[9][10] political movements critical of institutional authority believed to serve forms of social domination and injustice. While it has generally retained its earlier political usage as a synonym for either social or individualist anarchism through much of the world, in the United States it has since come to describe pro-capitalist economic liberalism more so than radical, anti-capitalist egalitarianism. In the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, libertarianism is defined as the moral view that agents initially fully own themselves and have certain moral powers to acquire property rights in external things.[11] As individualist opponents of social liberalism embraced the label and distanced themselves from the word liberal, American writers, political parties, and think tanks adopted the word libertarian to describe advocacy of capitalist free market economics and a night-watchman state.

      That's just Wikipedia, they do a fairly good job with it.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      I would fall, I suppose, somewhere between your run of the mill Libertarian and a Libertarian Socialist - leaning heavily towards the socialism side because reality trumps ideals. It is, for example, cheaper for me to feed you than it is for me to hire goons to keep you from taking my stuff. It's cheaper to keep you healthy than to deal with the plague. It's better to have you educated than to have to deal with your mistakes - and your increased worth is my greater potential. There's no much altruism there, truth be told.

      This is, for the most part, what the Libertarian Party was about way back when. I've been involved for something like forty years. Thus I've actually decided that it's pretty much time for me to elaborate and nominally refer to myself as a Classic Libertarian.

      As you can see from here:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      The umbrella is kind of large. There's not much I can do about it but there are a lot more than just the morons that get to the microphone first. I do blame myself for having been less vocal in the past. I'm working to change that now. I do thank you for being honest, open, and wiling to listen. We needn't agree but we can have this debate.

      From the second link:

      Libertarianism has many overlapping schools of thought, all focused on smaller government

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    32. Re:So to summarize... by DuckDodgers · · Score: 1

      I think my political philosophy might overlap 100% with yours, then, I just never used the same label. My introduction to libertarianism was reading Atlas Shrugged, and I admit I was in love with the book and some of the ideas it had for a while before it sank in that out of all the wildly successful capitalists of the 19th and 20th century United States, none had the ethics of Rearden, Dagny Taggert, d'Anconia or Galt; plus her supposedly heroic pirate Ragnar was nothing more than a thief and a murderer; and all of her socialist, religious, and state-sponsored villains were cowardly, lazy, stupid, lying cheaters. But really, my first criticism is the important one - if her philosophy of reality and her depiction of capitalism as the highest ethical lifestyle possible bears no resemblance to real capitalism, then it's got a fundamental flaw.

      At this point, even though I find myself aligned with you I am reluctant to use the libertarian label. Just like "hacker" no longer has any positive connotations in 90% of American society, I doubt "libertarian" will ever again move away from an association with minimal government and a (ludicrous) priority on property rights in 90% of the public's conscious. I suppose "socialist libertarian" might work, because that fundamentally breaks that other association.

    33. Re:So to summarize... by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Ayn Rand was an idiot. (I don't know how many times I've felt compelled to state the obvious over the years.) I no longer waste the time declaring why she was an idiot, I figure it should be obvious. Well, obvious to anyone that I'm making an effort to communicate with. If they don't understand that and why then, frankly, I'm not sure that they're a good place to invest my time and effort. I have better things to do.

      It is tough to use the nomenclature. It is hard to self-identify as a Libertarian. The connotations, wrong or right, are difficult to overcome. The way to explain it is long and complex and needs variance. Over the years, I've had this conversation, in one form or another, and there doesn't appear to be a simple of efficient way to do so.

      I think it is because I've been in the party for so long that I still used the moniker. We were all, at one point, much like I. Well, not all, but the vast majority of us had very similar beliefs - where we often differed is the methods we'd use to work towards our goals. I've even known some who advocated violence and a temporary totalitarian state (benevolent dictatorship) across the globe. There are extremists and idiots in all parties and, of course, those are the ones who get the media attention, speak the loudest, and generate the stereotypes.

      I'm saddened because I often feel forced to call myself a Classic Libertarian. I am not a Socialist, though I believe in similar results, because I didn't emote my way to a conclusion and, instead, reached my conclusions because of reason and logic. The distinction seems important to me but the name "Socialist Libertarian" does sound appealing. It might mean that I type out fewer replies such as this but, then again, I actually enjoy this sort of thing and the great discussions we can have here.

      I'd stop using the association but, to me, that would be cowardice. I have some, albeit passion, and empathy but it could easily be interpreted as stubbornness. I've had many conversations with many smart people and have refined my beliefs over the years. (I'm not one of those people who refuses to admit they're wrong or is unwilling to learn new things - such has actually 'shocked' folks here. I'll even happily admit that there's something I don't know or am unqualified to opine on.) But, as of yet, I can't give up this fight. Fight, for lack of a better word, is really what it has become. Like-minded people, in the party, are also claiming to be working on it but, honestly, we're not the most organized.

      People forget that it was the Libertarians who started the whole legalization of pot movement, we murmured about that decades ago. Of course, we usually want to legalize all drugs but that's a whole other point. The tent is large and, to a fault, welcomes almost anyone. Anyone can say, "I'm a Libertarian." They can then spout all the nonsense they want. We're not about to do some 'purity test' ala The Republican Party.

      I guess, to close with two more things. Businesses have rights but they exist by grace of the individual - not the other way around. I do not want a weak government that does nothing to curtail bad business practices - I want strong consumer protections because those afford the greatest amounts of personal liberties. I want a strong, central, government and individual State governments and local governments with varied degrees of power. I want freedom of movement within the populace to choose to live in like-minded communities. I want a small but strong government that does its job and nothing more. I want the power to reside in the hands of the people. I want equal opportunities - not equal outcomes (let the chips fall where they may). I have ideas as to how to help us reach those goals but I'm open to suggestions, as well.

      However, you're right... Maybe it's time to just give up the fight (it may not be something that I can win or even make a dent in) and go with "Socialist Libertarian." I think that may cause more confusion but, frankly, it may result in fewer questions in the long-run. Either way, thanks for the great conversation, so far. As always, I'm quite likely to reply if you post. I'm open to suggestions, criticism, etc... Yes, yes I am running for office. State Senate, Maine, 2016.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    34. Re:So to summarize... by DuckDodgers · · Score: 1

      I find it a little funny that you say you are not a socialist "because I didn't emote my way to a conclusion and, instead, reached my conclusions because of reason and logic". I think the idea of socialism as based on emotions is a grave mis-representation of the original ideas. So apparently we have two mainstream terms used in politics and economics that have drifted far in the public consciousness from their original meanings.

      I'm a big fan of the original ideas in socialism from Marx. But from what I've read so far it seems that Marx and later Trotsky had the insight to view runaway bureaucracy as a grave danger to a socialist society - yet still didn't grasp how incredibly difficult that problem is to solve properly. As far as I can tell, no practical solution has been devised. Laissez-faire capitalism trends towards an unequal distribution of power because the people with the most wealth influence government to accumulate power. Socialism trends towards an unequal distribution of power because they people in charge of planning the economy and managing the distribution of production influence government to accumulate power. Two different faces on the same crowd of demons.

      But that's a digression. Do you have any websites or mailing lists or other means of connecting with people of similar views? I spend too much time surfing the web instead of working as it is, but you definitely have my interest.

    35. Re:So to summarize... by KGIII · · Score: 1

      To be honest, yes, yes I was poking fun at the modern American socialist. I'm allowed some humor... It really has become a matter of emotion, at least that's what it appears like.

      I like Marxism but I don't think it will ever work without totalitarianism and it needs to be absolute. There's no room for there to be a comparison. It also needs to eliminate the "more equal than others" that seems likely to be inevitable. Like all ideologies, nothing can be done in its pure form effectively. That's one of the reasons that I dislike zealots and extremists - even those who don't believe they are.

      In short, we need a blended solution that is open to refinement as time passes. I think, I'm not certain, that the original ideas of the founders might have been along those lines and that's one of the reasons we've the ability to amend the Constitution.

      I do not have any mailing lists or sites that I use on a regular basis. There used to be a few that were worth attention but, shall we say, their message has been changing over the past ten years or so. We do communicate in person, on the phone, and via email. You will find like minded people by making contacts through events and whatnot - see: www.lp.org but they're not the most vocal.

      These guys are not too extreme... Comparatively speaking, of course.
      http://www.libertariansforum.c...
      As I recall, there's a few there but not a majority. They're mostly Randians with the associated baggage.

      I've never visited but I've heard some good things about:
      https://www.reddit.com/r/liber...

      I'm pretty sure you can find some of us here:
      http://forum.objectivismonline...
      However, that's not really a Libertarian site.

      If I knew where you lived then I might be able to help a bit more. We're not the best at organizing. We're not even going to clean house - it's not like we're going to do the whole purity test thing that the Tea Party/GOP wanted to do (or did?). If anything, I'd expect a few of us will tire of it and split off and make yet another redundant third party that doesn't get more than 2% of the votes due to a variety of reasons and a platform more complex than will fit on a bumper sticker.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  2. Re:Happy Happy Joy Joy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hope and Change you can believe in!!

  3. Re:Obama Hatred Of USA In Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    fuck off you racist idiot

  4. TTP commission by manu0601 · · Score: 2

    The name "TTP commission" strongly echoes the EU commission's name. The later is an unelected, unaccountable body that takes over nation state sovereignty, and it is interesting they chose a look alike name.

    1. Re:TTP commission by EthanDemurs · · Score: 1

      Since they conducted all of this in secrecy, it comes as no surprise that the future "leaders" of this illegitimate commission will be unelected. The last thing that they want is the very people in which they tried so hard to hide it from to have some accountability in its process.

    2. Re:TTP commission by manu0601 · · Score: 1

      Well, one can try to stamp on educated people sovereignty, but sooner or later, they revolt.

      If the leader acts wisely, it is able to just step down. Otherwise it turns into a bloody hell like french revolution of 1792.

  5. Governments = Evil. by roman_mir · · Score: 1, Insightful

    For those who are still very thick in the head and cannot comprehend the simplest thing since for the first time in history of this planet a rock was used to bash somebody on the head, I would like to repeat this axiom: governments = evil.

    Government is an evil structure by its very definition, as it is set up to provide the collective with violent means of dominating an individual. Whatever system that is fundamentally based on violence can not and will not avoid using violence to increase its own power, and a government is seen as legitimate by its very definition, doesn't it? It's the *government* after all, it is there to serve and protect...

    Here is your problem: you are not the ones it will be serving and protecting once it manages to grow its power enough with its legitimate use of violence. It will dominate and subjugate you and it will imprison you.

    I will also repeat something I said for nearly two decades now: abolish government protected copyrights and patents.

    Government exists to use power and it ends up using its power against you, understand it and work against it. Copyrights and patents are a manner used to create monopoly power for specific individuals. Many of you believe that monopolies are the property of free market capitalism, however in a free market capitalism monopolies are temporary and their existence depends on them providing a good enough product / service in the most cost effective way possible.

    With government there is no such requirement, government simply sets up monopolies and uses its violent power to maintain them. Utility companies, copyright holders, patent holders, military, education, name whatever government does and there is violence there, used to protect somebody's monopoly.

    My position is that TPP is inevitable once government with violent powers exists.

    1. Re: Governments = Evil. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Except with healthcare. More government control has been proven to be a good thing.

    2. Re: Governments = Evil. by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Funny

      Except with healthcare. More government control has been proven to be a good thing.

      ... and roads. Also public health and sanitation. And peace and public order. And the aqueduct. But apart from the aqueduct, roads, public health, sanitation, peace, public order, education, and healthcare, what have the Romans ... uh, government, what has the government done for us?

    3. Re: Governments = Evil. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except with healthcare. More government control has been proven to be a good thing.

      ... and roads. Also public health and sanitation. And peace and public order. And the aqueduct. But apart from the aqueduct, roads, public health, sanitation, peace, public order, education, and healthcare, what have the Romans ... uh, government, what has the government done for us?

      You left out the wine.

      Wine is really screwed up by governments. It is mostly treated as yet another cash cow.

    4. Re: Governments = Evil. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Things are good until they aren't. This is probably the tipping point. Fortunatelly such things as TOR and Freenet exist.

    5. Re:Governments = Evil. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Governments aren't evil. Governments you don't control are evil. TPP is solely a deal between the US government, staffed through the revolving door, and a few multinationals. Part of the deal is forcing other governments via means legal and illegal (remember Hillary saying 'collect all compromising information on foreign leaders that you can' to their ambassador?) to accept it. So, if you're in the US, you are the problem, because you had at least nominal control over your government, and you let it lapse.

    6. Re:Governments = Evil. by blue+trane · · Score: 2

      Corporations = evil. Wall street regulates Congress. Solution: public money creation, distributed directly to individuals in the form of a basic income.

    7. Re: Governments = Evil. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Attribution: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso

    8. Re: Governments = Evil. by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 2, Informative

      But apart from the aqueduct, roads, public health, sanitation, peace, public order, education, and healthcare

      Yes, those are things that nobody would demand in a market situation. Clearly we need human sacrifice on the order of hundreds of millions of people to provide water transportation systems.

      "But if we don't sacrifice the virgins, the sun won't come up, and then everybody will die!"

      I'm not sure which is the most repulsive: the Stockholm syndrome, the lack of reason and creativity, or the sociopathic disregard for the lives of millions in deference to the propaganda of a seventh-grade government-school civics teacher.

      "You can ignore reality, but you can't ignore the consequences of reality."

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    9. Re: Governments = Evil. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Except with healthcare. More government control has been proven to be a good thing.

      For Big Pharma. If not for government control excluding competitors from the market, how could one get a monopoly on a _generic_ medicine and just jack up the price 500x?
      For insurance industry. Nothing better than government acting as their private tax enforcer, to keep the gravy train going.
      For the ailing patients, not so much; google "medical tourism" for your edification.
      Sapienti sat.

      CAPTCHA: abusing

    10. Re:Governments = Evil. by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Govenments CAN be beneficial for those who lack power if, and only if, the government itself does not ally itself with those in power. Then it is at best useless. At worst compounding the problem.

      An absence of government creates a power vacuum that will instantly be filled by whoever has the most power. In our world this essentially means that the entity with the most money will rule. And of course abuse its power to suppress anyone wanting to either rise to power himself or to force those lacking the ability to defend themselves against it to bend to his interests. In short, that "rich" entity will force the "poor" ones to work against their own interest and for his.

      Any government that supports such a system can as well be considered failed because it serves no purpose. This is the state a society would assume anyway without government.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    11. Re:Governments = Evil. by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's just another run-off-the-mill anarchist position. You sound like anarchism had never been proposed as a political view before and as if there had never been any serious debate about this. This has already been discussed and rejected by most thinkers more than a hundred years ago.

      Despite the fact that probably everyone wants a lean government and it is surprisingly hard to get one, you position has the fatal flaw that you need a government apparatus to control corporations via anti-cartel laws and regulations for worker protection, social security, and basic customer protection. An unrestricted market invariably leads to cartels and extreme unequal wealth distributions. Your abolishing of the government would lead to extreme corporate fascism and totalitarian oligarchy, possibly even dictatorship, and you'd end up as a slave worker in no time.

    12. Re:Governments = Evil. by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 1

      Of course copyrights and patents are used to create a monopoly power for specific individuals. That was what they were designed to do. Why would you spend a couple of years to write a book if the moment you showed it to a bunch of publishers they could copy it and sell it as their own? Or why would you send in a demo "tape" to music label if they could just take the song and have an established group release it? What incentive would you have to create the next great mouse trap if as soon as it hit shelves a large corporation could copy you, sell at a loss until you went out of business, and then raise their price?

      There is nothing inherently wrong with the idea of copyrights and patents. They are good. What is wrong is in the past hundred or so years large corporations have influenced governments to twist the terms of the system to their favour. The TPP is just a continuation of that and I'm against it. I would like to see a return to some sane values restored to copyright. Something like 20 years would be more than appropriate. The patent process needs to be reformed so that you can't patent stupid things like 1-click buying or rounded corners. I'd actually like to see it so that you actually have to have a working prototype in order to get a patent.

    13. Re: Governments = Evil. by MrL0G1C · · Score: 2

      But apart from the aqueduct, roads, public health, sanitation, peace, public order, education, and healthcare
      Yes, those are things that nobody would demand in a market situation.

      They can demand gold bricks but they won't get them, without government only wealthy people get these things, poor people wouldn't be allowed to drive on private roads, just look at third world countries for a lack of sanitation, clean water, health care etc.

      --
      Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
    14. Re:Governments = Evil. by tomthepom · · Score: 4, Insightful

      however in a free market capitalism monopolies are temporary and their existence depends on them providing a good enough product / service in the most cost effective way possible.

      ...or product dumping, price fixing, dividing markets, buying up competitors etc. etc.

      In the real world businesses hate competition, and will do anything legal to prevent it.

    15. Re: Governments = Evil. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Poor people aren't allowed to drive on public roads. You are required to be licenced and have current insurance that's not free here in the states where do you live that it's free?

    16. Re: Governments = Evil. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So more government would be better. if the government pays for a single payer option, or ignores the patents and produces the drugs themselves only for use in public healthcare, then your medicare and medicaid bills would shrink fast.

    17. Re: Governments = Evil. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      New Hampshire. You don't need auto insurance unless you get in an accident and then you're required to have it for next time. Dumb not to have it, but it's not required.

      Not having a government means I'll kill you and take all your stuff when you're asleep. Though before that happens another country would invade.

    18. Re:Governments = Evil. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      People forget that modern Government is based on power structures that today we otherwise look upon as being uncivilized and/or brutal. But we have to ask ourselves. When did it all change? The answer is, it didn't, its all in our heads. Our preconditioning is that a) everything is supposed to be this way b) we are now part of a civilized and otherwise fair society.

      Saying this I feel that I could can be taken grossly out of context. By no means do I not want to live in a fair and civilized society or more importantly believe that many of us don't hold such individual beliefs to heart. What I'm saying is that you're either born into prominence, prestige or aristocracy or you're not. The very few that break the barrier have always been _The Very Few_. And more and more of us "average folk" need to rationalize with this as being the true "playing field".

      Because I fear 90% of aren't even in the game at this point. Many of us a still trapped in the mundane preconditioned model of a life that is preset out for us.

      I think the last time we saw someone stand up to this type of draconian behavior was Aaron Swartz, and who wants to be the next Aaron Swartz right? And after this battle has waged and we claw back some glimmer of a victory. The moment we turn our backs thinking its all good again. Bam! It's XYZ ver3.0 of the same thing.

      Obama went for the "Fast track" and tried to seal these documents from the public. So what's next? A new imaginary law that just was written in without any press, without any meetings. It was simply passed through and enforced? Democracy left a long time ago guys. A loooooong time ago and its as if our politicians are playing Doom with "God Mode*" on and think they are "leet gamerz". It's sickening.

      * That's IDDQD for those who are uninformed.

    19. Re:Governments = Evil. by rhodium_mir · · Score: 2

      For those who are still very thick in the head and cannot comprehend the simplest thing since for the first time in history of this planet a rock was used to bash somebody on the head, I would like to repeat this axiom: markets = evil.

      Markets is an evil structure by its very definition, as it is set up to provide the collective with violent means of dominating an individual. Whatever system that is fundamentally based on violence can not and will not avoid using violence to increase its own power, and a markets is seen as legitimate by its very definition, doesn't it? It's the *markets* after all, it is there to serve and protect...

      Here is your problem: you are not the ones it will be serving and protecting once it manages to grow its power enough with its legitimate use of violence. It will dominate and subjugate you and it will imprison you.

      I will also repeat something I said for nearly two decades now: abolish markets protected copyrights and patents.

      Markets exists to use power and it ends up using its power against you, understand it and work against it. Copyrights and patents are a manner used to create monopoly power for specific individuals. Many of you believe that monopolies are the property of free market capitalism, however in a free market capitalism monopolies are temporary and their existence depends on them providing a good enough product / service in the most cost effective way possible.

      With markets there is no such requirement, markets simply sets up monopolies and uses its violent power to maintain them. Utility companies, copyright holders, patent holders, military, education, name whatever markets does and there is violence there, used to protect somebody's monopoly.

      My position is that TPP is inevitable once markets with violent powers exists.

      --
      You can't spell "oneiromancy" without "roman".
    20. Re:Governments = Evil. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Baahh said the sheep. The only stupid quotes are coming from you. Allow me illustrate.

      Does the government establish an agreed upon set of laws that we all are supposed to follow. You know, kind of like threatening highway bandits with punishment or putting people in jail for fraud.

      TPP was not agreed upon within any reasonable forum, format or political debate. It was done in secret and leaked online by Wikileaks.

      See your idealism instantly destroyed. You made a fool of. When will you people get it? In an ideal world you maybe right. But when the world is no longer ideal, you're not only wrong. You're being made a fool of!

    21. Re: Governments = Evil. by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      These things do not require innovation. Medicine does, and that costs money.

      That's before governments ladle on well over a billion dollars of testing requirements on average for a new drug.

      Government-supplied medicine is based off the idea of providing a static product, when in fact you actually want a changing, improving one, and rent control doesn't work with that.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    22. Re: Governments = Evil. by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      Again, if you want to behave like an apelike hunter and gatherer, you can go out and seize all the medicine that is currently invented.

      If you want more, though, no, government funding of it is just a small fraction of the total invention. I don't want 1970-level medicine in 2015. Nor do I want 2015 level medicine in 2050 because some busybodies seized out all the profit making from it.

      Please keep your literally mass murderous political theories to yourself and let the rest of us be free.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    23. Re:Governments = Evil. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      For those who are still very thick in the head and cannot comprehend the simplest thing since for the first time in history of this planet a rock was used to bash somebody on the head, I would like to repeat this axiom: markets = evil.

      Tee hee hee. Putting insults on the front of it doesn't make it true.

      Among other things, a "market" is a body of existing or potential buyers for specific goods or services. What you're saying, know it or not, is that people are evil. Well, that's true in its own way, but it's only a small part of the story.

      Markets is an evil structure by its very definition, as it is set up to provide the collective with violent means of dominating an individual.

      You don't even know what a market is, do you? A market is when people want to buy stuff. 1100-1150; Middle English, late Old English < Vulgar Latin *marcÄtus, Latin mercÄtus trading, traffic, market. Are you trying to say that capitalism is evil? It's not evil, it's amoral, and easily seized by evil men. That's why capitalism leads naturally to corporatism. When you permit capital to control the means of production (the meaning of capitalism) it tends to accrete ever more power to itself.

      With markets there is no such requirement, markets simply sets up monopolies and uses its violent power to maintain them.

      Uh no. That's corporations. Not markets. Hope this helps! Sure it won't.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    24. Re: Governments = Evil. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      If you want more, though, no, government funding of it is just a small fraction of the total invention. I don't want 1970-level medicine in 2015. Nor do I want 2015 level medicine in 2050 because some busybodies seized out all the profit making from it.

      Your failure is lack of imagination. Why can't you imagine that people would still want to solve the problem of illness if they couldn't get rich by doing it? The actual research of drug production occurs primarily at public universities, underwritten by drug company grants. The drug companies spend over half of their money on advertising. Then there's all the drugs they create specifically to game the system, which are often actually inferior to the drug they replace. Capitalism and Big Pharma actually hold back progress in medicine.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    25. Re:Governments = Evil. by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Your abolishing of the government would lead to extreme corporate fascism and totalitarian oligarchy, possibly even dictatorship, and you'd end up as a slave worker in no time.

      I think the parent poster is planning to be part of the oligarchy rather then a slave worker. He's probably in for a rude surprise but who knows, maybe he'll end up as dictator for life.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    26. Re:Governments = Evil. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Among other things, a "market" is a body of existing or potential buyers for specific goods or services.

      A market is an area, tangible or intangible (in present day) where commodities are traded. Today's market is predominately focused around a consumer base using what is called fiat (not actual money) to purchase goods.

      One should be able to distinguish between the concept of two or more people simply trading items, one thing for another. Buyer to seller. This is the traditional free market based on actual need as it has been since the dawn of time.

      The first definition relies on central banking and paper backed (fake) fiat currency (not money). Along with speculative (superficial) markets which are sometimes driven by demand but in many cases are not. A perfect example is oil (remember it dropping by 50%). Another is diamonds (a perfect bs market). Remember the housing crisis? the oh little bubble that burst back in 09? do you remember that? How about FB shares? you stupid enough to invest in them?

      Tee hee hee, me so fucking stupid pretending to be SMRT! Oh wait, thats you :)

    27. Re: Governments = Evil. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. Once you go down the 'government is evil' rabbit hole, that's a political position and a value judgment. It's not a statement of fact.

      Government is great for certain purposes. For others it is the best available answer. And for some purposes it is poor to 'the worst possible choice'. Using government effectively is the right choice, not 'government is evil'.

      If you really believed in the 'government is evil' trope, you'd ban them and hunt down the survivors like we hunted the Nazis. Which is to say, enthusiastically at first, then with ever greater lethargy and boredom until we essentially stopped. And the Nazi rocket scientists were useful so we gave them a free pass. But the rhetoric never stopped!

    28. Re:Governments = Evil. by HiThere · · Score: 1

      I hope you aren't so foolish as to also assert that lack of government == good.

      To an extent I agree with you. Centralized positions of power tend to be attractive to those psychotically attracted to power. And the proper solution, when possible, is to decentralize the power. When that cannot be done, the only reasonable answer is to so design things that striving to attain power does not increase your probability of getting it. It is for this reason that I propose replacing elections by a lottery along the lines of The Draft.

      Please note, however, that I'm not so foolish as to presume that all goals can be accomplished without centralized power. Anarchy is an inherently unstable system. At best it is metastable.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    29. Re:Governments = Evil. by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Yes, I think that absence of government is good and that government is evil by very definition. I think that all and any ills of the world do not warrant reduction of individual freedoms at all under any circumstances. Yes, governments tend to form in the power vacuum that exists when there is no centralized authority. No, that does not mean that the power vacuum being filled with a government is a good thing, it is a horrible thing, the real question is what to do to actively prevent that from happening.

      How to prevent governments from forming and from stealing from individuals, stealing their freedoms, stealing their lives away from them in every possible manner resulting from the violence that government inherently is?

      So for the lack of better choices today, I think MAD doctrine is the necessary response, where everybody can destroy everybody at any moment in time. I am not looking for 'stable', I am looking for freedom. I think at some point the destructive power in the hands of any individual will be of such greatness, that MAD doctrine will actually become reality. When anybody can destroy the planet, nobody can force anybody to do anything and that's a great thing.

      Until the time that everybody can have their own doomsday device only very few will enjoy such power. AFAIC technological progress will lead to individual power increasing enough to the point where the collective attempting to control an individual will become nearly impossible without a large part of the collective going down in flames with the individual.

      It is very unlikely that we will witness it during our lifetimes, but that should be the goal.

    30. Re:Governments = Evil. by rhodium_mir · · Score: 1

      We should limit voting to only those who possess doomsday devices in order to incentivize freedom.

      --
      You can't spell "oneiromancy" without "roman".
    31. Re:Governments = Evil. by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Govenments CAN be beneficial for those who lack power if, and only if, the government itself does not ally itself with those in power. Then it is at best useless. At worst compounding the problem.

      An absence of government creates a power vacuum that will instantly be filled by whoever has the most power. In our world this essentially means that the entity with the most money will rule. And of course abuse its power to suppress anyone wanting to either rise to power himself or to force those lacking the ability to defend themselves against it to bend to his interests. In short, that "rich" entity will force the "poor" ones to work against their own interest and for his.

      Any government that supports such a system can as well be considered failed because it serves no purpose. This is the state a society would assume anyway without government.

      Basically governments are not evil. They're inanimate and natively without anthropomorphic characteristics. Its the people in government that determines if it is good or evil.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    32. Re:Governments = Evil. by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      I am sure that you believe that you are 'insightful' like the fools that marked you up.

      Here is another reason that the government is evil, listen to the speech of the man who tried to educate the American public and died in prison in USA, a political prisoner put there for fighting against the oppression and trying to educate people.

    33. Re:Governments = Evil. by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      > Why would you spend a couple of years to write a book if the moment you showed it to a bunch of publishers they could copy it and sell it as their own?

      2 Counter Examples that blow this "argument" right out of the water:

      * Fashion Industry thrives inspite of complete lack of copyright proves your premise entirely wrong

      * /sarcasm Someone should Mathematics / Mathematicians that for the last few thousand years they have been doing it wrong!

      Not everything has to be viewed through myopic capitalism and the greed of artificial monopolies.

  6. Shape of things to come by jmd · · Score: 2

    In the future the global legal framework will be created and enforced by corporations. The nation-state will lose its sovereignty.

    From the governments become more corrupted from representing their people to the privatization of military forces to Google and other corporations owning, paying for research that they can 'sell back' to consumers, your world will be controlled by corporations. Democracy, socialism and communism will no longer exist thanks to capitalism.

    This is a good time to read "When Google Met Wikileaks" by Julian Assange

    1. Re:Shape of things to come by fredgiblet · · Score: 1

      Shadowrun when? Come on now I want my wired reflexes and datajack!

    2. Re:Shape of things to come by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Awakening hasn't even happened yet, so probably still a ways off...

  7. sounds very much like Agenda 21 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Another treaty that was negotiated by the leaders of world governments without concern about the state of the citizens they represent and kept as much in secret as possible.

  8. Re:Obama Hatred Of USA In Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    The Savior Of America, the half-breed kid, Barak Hussain Obama, is laid on the table.

    Disgusting.

    Ha ha

    Thank you for illustrating perfectly why the people in power get away with this kind of stuff. Instead of looking at reality people are mostly swayed by emotionally driven, partisan nonsense. This isn't unique to the right either, Democrats are 100% guilty of this trash.

    I sure hope while you're digesting your talking points from the same 'lamestream media' that you so pretend to hate that you take a moment to realize that the companies that control the news have the opposite of your best interests in mind.

    I really don't know why I wasted my time, the 'communist muslims leftie gay agenda freedom haters' have already taken over America in your mind, and as the Rambo of your own fantasies it's your job to defend it. "How fortunate leaders that men do not think" - Adolph Hitler

  9. This video explains this law very well by Iamthecheese · · Score: 2

    This video explains the evidence in a recent study. It shows why what Americans want has practically no effect on what American politicians do.

    --
    If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
  10. 5 stars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But after careful consideration, I must take away a star. If they send me more free stuff, I'll update this and give it 5 stars. Hint-hint.

  11. it can't be that bad by liquid_schwartz · · Score: 0

    We were clearly told by the appointed future president that it was the "gold standard" of agreements. Although for show she suddenly has reservations about it I'm sure once elected it will be fully supported. When it comes to stopping the freight train of "free trade" vote Trump or Sanders.

    1. Re: it can't be that bad by macsimcon · · Score: 1

      Do you really believe that Trump or Sanders would be seated by the Electoral College? Those elites will put Clinton or some establishment Republican in the White House.

      We need to get Americans involved in their government as they are in most of Europe and Australia, and as selfish as Americans are, this will only happen after the next global economic crash.

      To paraphrase Churchill: America can always be counted on to do the right thing...after having exhausted all other available options.

  12. Re:Obama Hatred Of USA In Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Judging from across the pond, I'd say that both parties are experts in making political debates irrational in order to distract from the real issues. One of them is the gap between 1% of the richest and the rest of the population. If you look at the statistics, this gap has become ridiculously huge during the past 60 years. Whether you like it or not, this is going to be Americas biggest problem in the long run.

    ------ free analysis of Republican meeting following
    However, I watched part of a replay of the last debate of Republican candidates last evening and realized with some relief that not all of them are totally irrational. If you disregard misogynic egomaniacs like Trump, fanatics like Huckabee and this moron who was talking about Iran all the time (who the fuck is this guy?--Ah, looked him up, John Dummett, what a dumbass), the rest was not necessarily worse than Clinton, if you know what I mean. Bush, Carson, Paul, and Fiorina weren't that bad, the most reasonable of them was Paul (within Rep. limits), but even Bush appeared to be far more reasonable than any other Bush I've heard before. (Bush can't make it, though, because he has the wry smile of a loser and it's all about showbiz.)

  13. Doesn't matter Intellectual Monopoly is finished by trout007 · · Score: 1

    These are just the last gasps. Intellectual Monopoly is on the way out. It cannot be enforced. The economy is too fast for the bureaucrats to control now. Sure the laws will be there but they will be ignored and only used occasionally for political revenge. it will just be a cost of doing business.

    --
    I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
  14. Holy smoke! TPP Commission. by MrL0G1C · · Score: 1

    "The new Commission would be a self-governing, continuing body authorized to issue policies and regulations affecting our economy, our manufacturers, our workers, our immigration procedures, as well currency, labor and environmental practices," Hunter wrote. "It is one thing to enhance executive authority with respect to a narrow set of trade policies, it is another to fast-track the creation of a new international structure before a single detail about that structure has been made available to the public."

    100% dismantling democracy and directly handing power over to the biggest corporations. 100% treason, it's nothing short of a corporate coup.

    --
    Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
    1. Re:Holy smoke! TPP Commission. by HiThere · · Score: 1

      It doesn't fit the constitutional definition of treason. Malfeasance, yes. In fact I would suggest that one could find a hundred counts of malfeasance, so that if the sentences were served sequentially those involved would never get out of prison. And I believe this could be done for most members of Congress, as well as for the President. Certainly anyone who votes for this atrocity should be arrested for malfeasance. But no prosecutor would even file charges.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    2. Re:Holy smoke! TPP Commission. by MrL0G1C · · Score: 1

      Legally it's more like sedition perhaps, literally it is still treasonous. I don't care much for law, it's an ass.

      --
      Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
    3. Re:Holy smoke! TPP Commission. by LessThanObvious · · Score: 1

      Why is Obama so hell bent on passing this? I can understand how this would be popular with corporations and some legislators, but why in his second and final term is Obama bent on passing this seriously flawed bunch of shit?

    4. Re:Holy smoke! TPP Commission. by MrL0G1C · · Score: 1

      Good question, I can only assume he wants to line his pockets with cash from the companies who will benefit from the changes. Ex-presidents should receive a large stipend/pension but not be allowed to take money from anyone after their presidency.

      --
      Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
  15. No Government = No Market by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 2

    Yes, those are things that nobody would demand in a market situation.

    If you don't have a government you don't have a market. Markets can only operate where there are some basic rules which the participants can be trusted to follow. This requires someone with the best/most pointy sticks to enforce the rules which will be the de facto government.

    Your link goes on about freedom but the only reason many of us have some guaranteed freedoms is because there is a government which is willing to enforce them with the use of pointy sticks. That's why we created them and why we still have them despite their many flaws.

    If you want an idea about what life without government is like look back at history, not the 250 years that the US has been around but several thoused years ago and more. Life in the stone age was free but would you prefer living then rather than now? The big difference is of course technology but look at history: technology is closely tied to the development of governments and the better the government the more rapid the technological progress. It's unlikely Newton would have come up with his laws of motion if he had to spend most of his time worrying about how to protect himself and his property.

  16. They have bigger guns by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    And when you use them, you become a murderer.

    Protest without guns. They can't shoot you without looking like the bad guys.

    And a million people who decide to just walk up to them will crush them to death.

  17. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  18. Do Not Ratify by CanEHdian · · Score: 1

    Every effort should be made to stop ratification. Unfortunately in Canada, Trudeau refused to really say anything claiming the text wasn't available (strangely enough the mainstream media all bought the excuse that he didn't know anything about the TPP, which strikes me as odd) so with the majority that can go any way. The top contenders in the US for president that are openly anti-TPP get attacked on all fronts. One of the minor parties pulling out won't stop the TPP, but two or three might.

    --
    When the copyright term is "forever minus a day", live every day like it's the last.
    1. Re:Do Not Ratify by dryeo · · Score: 1

      We (Canada) are kinda stuck with having to go along with America as we're too dependent on trade to refuse to sign. And of course Trudeau will find himself surrounded by advisers reminding him of this as well as all the benefits to the country (actually the rich).
      Basically as long as America signs, we (Canada, Australia and NZ) are screwed.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
  19. Why aren't people organizing violent protests? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We should be up in arms and even potentially taking organized violent measures to defend our rights and liberties against these actions. The government has long overstepped its bounds and we the people are sitting idly by doing nothing. Have many here have even spent time and money to fight these laws? As a (non-violent) organizer in some of these efforts I can tell you not many.

    I'm afraid that if we're going to have any success there needs to be more people participating in mass-migrations from around the country and around the world. The problem right now is freedom-loving individuals are terribly spread out and not in a good position to organize serious fights. We can't protect ourselves let alone the rest of the population. Right now there is only one serious effort to change that: The Free State Project.

    On the other hand there is hope. As an example thanks in big part to Free State Project participants protests were organized against the Department of Homeland Security's efforts to stifle a New Hampshire libraries participation in the Tor network (https://www.newamerica.org/new-america/how-a-small-new-hampshire-library-fought-government-fearmongering/). The protests succeeded in convincing the library to ignore DHS fearmongering.

    Now we just need focus on making more people aware of such migration projects, and encouraging participation, and keep fighting until a real state can be formed.For those who are interested there are two yearly events to check out: PorcFest (a camping event) and New Hampshire Liberty Forum.

    1. Re:Why aren't people organizing violent protests? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People aren't reacting to this because, for the most part, people don't look past the nose on their face and as long as that nose is buried in their favourite book, movie or game they're quite happy.

  20. This was done to Europe (EU) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Watch "End Of Nations: EU Takeover And The Lisbon Treaty" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWWsWxjl71Q)

    The US constitution affords the government no power to give away its powers, especially those not enumerated to it in the first place. IT'S TREASON

  21. Randian Dumbfuckery by Uberbah · · Score: 2

    Government is an evil structure by its very definition, as it is set up to provide the collective with violent means of dominating an individual. Whatever system that is fundamentally based on violence can not and will not avoid using violence to increase its own power, and blah blah blah blah

    As much as starting your own business means you will sexually harass your female employees, defraud your investors, dump toxic waste in the river, and join the international slave trade. For what some businesses have done, all businesses will do.

    That's either equally brilliant as your assertion that government = evil, or equally asinine.

    Another problem left out of your Randian storyline: look back at the worst Soviet agency, program or institution you could name, and its bureaucrats wouldn't have a direct, personal incentive to cut corners the way capitalists do. Because, as you Randians constantly tell us, socialism/communism leads to lazy, unproductive workers that have guaranteed jobs and salaries no matter how little they work. As opposed to capitalists, who choose to leave people with cancer, disembowelment or death to save a buck (or less) on products that cost thousands of dollars.

  22. I suspect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    That governments had a two-fold purpose to refusing to discuss the TPP during negotiations:

    1). A legitimate wish to keep the trade negotiations in an open-ended state, with the fewest possible restriction on the trade negotiators;
    2). An illegitimate wish to stifle public discussion of the ramifications of global trade agreements, focus on winners and losers, and the implicit freedom we give capital even as we withhold the same freedoms, rights and practical considerations that restrict workers, employment, and the flow of citizens. If we were serious about treating capital and labour the same, we'd grant free flow of citizens throughout the TPP zone. No border restrictions, no green cards, no visas, no working permits, nothing.

    Once the TPP exists but has not been ratified, we are bombarded with statements that "we have to", "ratification is necessary to keep us competitive", "the TPP will leave us behind, the train is leaving the station", and "all the cool countries are doing it".

    I'm not saying the TPP is wrong per se. I'm saying that we aren't having the necessary structure and policy discussions. These agreements change our economy, flows of money and wealth, and business opportunities. This is equivalent to signing a complicated insurance agreement without having a good understanding what is in it and why.

    1. Re:I suspect by HiThere · · Score: 1

      OK. I *WILL* say the TPP is wrong per se. That some kind of trade treaty would be desirable doesn't make this, or anything closely similar to this, acceptable. I even assert that voting for this treaty should be taken as positive proof of malfeasance. (I'll agree that it doesn't say anything about the reason for the malfeasance.)

      Also, please note the distinction between misfeasance and malfeasance. http://dictionary.reference.co...
      Usually malfeasance is a felony, as opposed to misfeasance or nonfeasance.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  23. Re:Obama Hatred Of USA In Writing by Undead+Waffle · · Score: 1

    Judging from across the pond, I'd say that both parties are experts in making political debates irrational in order to distract from the real issues. One of them is the gap between 1% of the richest and the rest of the population. If you look at the statistics, this gap has become ridiculously huge during the past 60 years. Whether you like it or not, this is going to be Americas biggest problem in the long run.

    ------ free analysis of Republican meeting following However, I watched part of a replay of the last debate of Republican candidates last evening and realized with some relief that not all of them are totally irrational. If you disregard misogynic egomaniacs like Trump, fanatics like Huckabee and this moron who was talking about Iran all the time (who the fuck is this guy?--Ah, looked him up, John Dummett, what a dumbass), the rest was not necessarily worse than Clinton, if you know what I mean. Bush, Carson, Paul, and Fiorina weren't that bad, the most reasonable of them was Paul (within Rep. limits), but even Bush appeared to be far more reasonable than any other Bush I've heard before. (Bush can't make it, though, because he has the wry smile of a loser and it's all about showbiz.)

    Unfortunately they are all bad. Most of them have come out saying they would end net neutrality. Paul is a libertarian like his father and their philosophy is basically in line with Ayn Rand (who was a sociopath). Fiorina is best known for laying off thousands from HP and destroying the company. She is also a big fan of H1B visas. The only candidate that isn't completely awful is Bernie Sanders. Some of his ideas are out there but Congress will restrict what he can accomplish anyway. He's the only candidate I know of that's opposed to the TPP and given the Trade Promotion Authority that was granted to negotiate these treaties in the first place is for 6 years it would be good to have him in the white house to stop the next one from happening.

  24. Secret Laws by DanielRavenNest · · Score: 1

    Negotiated in secret, without even elected representatives able to review it? I will break it in secret - seems fair to me.

  25. Re:Obama Hatred Of USA In Writing by HiThere · · Score: 1

    While true, please remember that the Republican party has been solidly in control of Congress for quite awhile now. BOTH parties have conspired to foist this off on us.

    --

    I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.