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New Algorithm Provides Huge Speedups For Optimization Problems (mit.edu)

An anonymous reader writes: MIT graduate students have developed a new "cutting-plane" algorithm, a general-purpose algorithm for solving optimization problems. They've also developed a new way to apply their algorithm to specific problems, yielding orders-of-magnitude efficiency gains. Optimization problems look to find the best set of values for a group of disparate parameters. For example, the cost function around designing a new smartphone would reward battery life, speed, and durability while penalizing thickness, cost, and overheating. Finding the optimal arrangement of values is a difficult problem, but the new algorithm shaves a significant amount of operations (PDF) off those calculations. Satoru Iwata, professor of mathematical informatics at the University of Tokyo, said, "This is indeed an astonishing paper. For this problem, the running time bounds derived with the aid of discrete geometry and combinatorial techniques are by far better than what I could imagine."

129 comments

  1. Whoah.. by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 2

    Satoru Iwata, professor of mathematical informatics at the University of Tokyo, said, "This is indeed an astonishing paper.

    I'm assuming this isn't the same Satoru Iwata of Nintendo fame... who sadly passed away earlier this year. :/

    --

    "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    1. Re:Whoah.. by pushing-robot · · Score: 4, Funny

      You never know; I'm sure he had plenty of 1UPs.

      --
      How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
  2. Oh... by pushing-robot · · Score: 2

    And as it turns out, P=NP. Stay tuned for more exciting developments!

    --
    How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
    1. Re:Oh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This gets mentioned a lot around here and I've never understood. What difference does that equation make either way?

    2. Re:Oh... by davester666 · · Score: 1

      Math is hard.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    3. Re:Oh... by Pseudonym · · Score: 4, Funny

      Math is hard.

      Or, more accurately, math is believed to be hard.

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    4. Re:Oh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What difference does that equation make either way?

      It depends upon whether it's proven true or false. Experience demonstrates that it's almost certainly false (i.e. not equal), but nobody has yet produced a definitive proof of that. If it were true (i.e. equal) then the world would become a much more interesting place. For starters, the basis of modern cryptography would be significantly weakened or even completely undermined. Although, as I've said already, it's almost certainly false. In fact most people are working on the P != NP angle for the proof which incidentally is one of the Millennium Prize Problems and worth $1 million US dollars. However, the money pales in comparison to having one's name forever enshrined with the greats of Computer Science past, to be mentioned in the same breath as Babbage, Turing or Knuth. That's the real prize and probably what keeps some people going on it.

    5. Re:Oh... by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      This gets mentioned a lot around here and I've never understood. What difference does that equation make either way?

      If they are equal, then it means an entire class of problems can be solved more efficiently.*


      *(In theory.......in practice, since we don't even know what the solution is, it may be the solution is "efficient" only for extremely large datasets, say, with quintillion elements. Believe it or not, there are algorithms like this).

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    6. Re:Oh... by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      That can be proven for some definitions of hard.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    7. Re:Oh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      To give a brief and hopefully laymen-friendly explanation:

      It isn't an equation per se; P and NP are classes of computational problems. Roughly speaking, P is the set of problems that can be solved deterministically in polynomial time with respect to some input parameter, and NP is the set of problems that can be solved non-deterministically in polynomial time with respect to some input parameter (hence the "N"). A more approachable definition of NP for laymen is that it comprises problems for which a solution can be verified (or rejected) in polynomial time. For instance, prime factorization of an integer is in NP because, given an input integer and a list of prime factors, you can verify that the list is actually the prime factorization of the integer in polynomial time (by multiplying them together).

      The significance, aside from pure theoretical interest, is that a lot of very interesting practical problems are known to be in NP, and knowing that those problems could be solved in polynomial time would be very useful.

    8. Re:Oh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So at this point its all theory and still nobody knows. Got it.

    9. Re:Oh... by KGIII · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Why, I oughtta!

      Anyhow, I'm checking out the paper. Well, I will be after snuggle-time. Yay! A use-case for a tablet. I've a bit of work in this area though, specifically, modeling traffic - traffic optimization *is* hard. Throughput, where humans are concerned, is nearing an attempt at modeling chaos (and for those who think perfection is possible, I welcome their insights).

      I've yet to read it but I suspect it's not a huge advance so much as it is working on prior modal work. (Not all work gets published, for better or worse, and some remains a trade-secret.) My guess is that (and this is just from a quick look, absolutely not to be taken as an authoritative statement) this is just further optimization, refinement, and it appears like it may be a good step forward.

      I'm not sure that I agree with the phone analogy but, well, okay... We're not children.

      It looks like, if you've got highway traffic going to A, B, and C and you have exit/merge nodes 1, 2, and 3 then you can take the current values and include the street traffic - as well as time of day data, up to and including the myriad traffic uses, that you can then more accurately predict if new merge 1.5 will increase traffic for traffic going from A to B while decreasing overall traffic (of increasing it) from B to C and if it will actually reduce surface street traffic. It also looks like you can use this to predict if an exit at 1.5 will decrease overall time for, example, delivery vehicles that need to reach surface streets or if they're better shoveled off to a new exit at 2.5 or left to exit on 3. You can also deduce predictions (never certainties) for throughput from A to C, A to B, and which exits or mergers are more likely to congest or reduce traffic on the highway as well as optimize for certain functions such as the aforementioned delivery trucks.

      Basically, in programmer terms, the more subroutines you can have the more accurately you can refine your answers and the better the results *can* be. Of course this adds complexity and computational difficulty. This algorithm optimizes existing work by allowing you to use more subroutines more efficiently - perhaps think of it like calling a library or OOP (I guess?). As you were a teacher, it's akin to being able to (more easily) tailor an individualized lesson plan for each student who may, or may not, excel and then, at the end, they'd all be able to pass their test which may, or may not, be also tailored for them. Basically, you'd be able to blab a whole bunch of data at them and they'd then get the appropriate information, tailored to their needs, and may output the correct answers on the test.

      This doesn't do anything (from what I see so far) to actually ensure you're inserting good data (of course). I am obviously stretching the analogies quite a bit but math is hard. Well, no... It's not hard so much but, rather, it is that most people learned via rote and not conceptually. Some idiot decided to make word problems, not a bad idea. Some idiot came along after them and told them to take the word problems apart and to ignore the words. Nobody actually showed them the concepts of the maths themselves and why the answers are the way they are. I could type a novella on the subject... Complete with examples! Nobody would listen/read it and I don't blame them.

      In short, this is "just" improving on existing models and appears to be doing so by making various inputs more accessible or, more accurately, more streamlined. Again, a very cursory scan was done and I could be way off. Another quick look makes me think I'm correct. I really need to read it to be certain.

      'Snot hard. *nods* Looks like good work from a quick glimpse. It'd be a shame to see it wasted on optimizing phones. ;-) Another quick peek does, indeed, note that they're claiming improvements on current models. Note: This was written in a few sporadic posts and the paragraphs are probably horrifically out of order. If they don't make sense then swap 'em around a bit until they

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    10. Re:Oh... by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Who are you who is so wise in the way of maths? That's a great description and you should publish it somewhere more meaningful than /. - maybe the maths StackExchange site.

      For the moderators - that's a pretty good description. Albeit not as detailed as it could be but it needn't be so it seems like it suits the purpose fine. That's one of the best descriptions of nondeterministic polynominal time problems that I've seen. People have issues with the P vs NP. Truth be told, it's not that easy to grasp at first.

      Bleh, I'm tired but the above poster did a pretty good job methinks. I'm seeing nary a problem with it. It could probably be fluffed out but should suffice. Good work, I say.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    11. Re:Oh... by pushing-robot · · Score: 4, Informative

      Think of a huge jigsaw puzzle. You might have thousands of pieces that could each go in thousands of possible places, and while you may know tricks to speed up the process, solving it would surely take a lot of trial and error and time. When you did finally solve the puzzle, though, it would only take you a moment to check the picture against the box and prove your solution was correct. That makes it a NP problem.

      Another jigsaw puzzle has every piece labeled with column and row, so you can put the whole thing together in one sweep—no trial and error needed. Both solving the puzzle and verifying the solution would be simple. That makes it a P problem.

      If P=NP, it would indicate the first jigsaw puzzle has labels on its pieces too, just harder to see. If you can find them, solving the puzzle becomes trivial.

      There are a great number of NP problems in the world; if P=NP we could find the solutions to many intractable math problems within our grasp.
      .
      Unfortunately, one of those is encryption. Many encryption methods use a NP math problem as a lock and its solution as a key. We assume it would take an impractical amount of time to solve the math problem, so the only way in is by knowing the solution. But if P = NP, breaking that lock (by solving the math) could become as fast as using the key. Oops!

      --
      How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
    12. Re:Oh... by sexconker · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Why, I oughtta!

      Anyhow, I'm checking out the paper. Well, I will be after snuggle-time. Yay! A use-case for a tablet. I've a bit of work in this area though, specifically, modeling traffic - traffic optimization *is* hard. Throughput, where humans are concerned, is nearing an attempt at modeling chaos (and for those who think perfection is possible, I welcome their insights).

      For controlled intersections, ACTUALLY control them.
      Stop signs, traffic signals, etc. are all suggestions in the eyes of your typical driver.
      If a yellow light meant "we're raising the fucking spiked pylon barrier" there would be a lot fewer issues.
      It won't be perfect (we still have people who try to beat trains and drive round/through the arms as they're lowering) but it would be a lot better, especially after weeding out the retards.

      Once you control behavior you can then look to optimizing flows of traffic, and you'll have much more success.

    13. Re:Oh... by KGIII · · Score: 3, Informative

      Great, in theory. Then you end up with some drunk guy, driving backwards, on a one way street. As someone who made a career of modeling traffic, well, if we had intelligent drivers then I'd not have been able to retire at 50 after selling my company. Some dumb ass will ram the pylons and actually increase the overall time needed because emergency crews will be on-scene and the vehicle will be disabled. YOU might obey the rules but, well, you know how far that gets you.

      Also, in an ideal world? We'd not need one single signal light nor stop sign. Yup. It could be done with ease. The only flaw in my world-overthrowing-plan is that humans are inherently stupid and more so when they're behind the wheel of an automobile. Trust me on this - I dare say that this is the one subject where I can speak authoritatively. Coming up with, and believing in, an ideal system that relies on the intelligence of the operators is as doomed as any political ideology that follows the same principles - meaning you're gonna need to be really draconian and authoritarian.

      In short, we could just take the cars away. That'd make about as much sense as any other solution. Which, by the way, is me agreeing with you. It won't be perfect. No, it won't. However, your idea may actually mean that the overall throughput slows down and doesn't return to normal or result in an increased rate. It takes, on average, as long as THREE YEARS for them to acclimate to a new traffic pattern. Some, like the 'Magic Roundabouts' in the UK are just skipped by the locals who simply avoid them rather than adapt.

      For every model of improvements you make, we'll invent a newer and dumber human. So, no... It won't be perfect. The pylons might be a stretch too far. Some places have actually opted to remove the tire puncture strips for those who go the wrong way on a one way route. Why? Idiots ended up holding up traffic. Sure, it had the desired result but there are more idiots. See the UK where they put in the pylons that rise up from the street, for example, and then lower only for certain vehicles with an attached sensor. People do exactly what you think they'll do - on a *very* regular basis, some of them even picking up speed to try to beat it. They don't. They do it again. And again... And again... And again...

      Pylons probably aren't the solution - drivers education and mandatory re-licensing with strict adherence to testing standards might go somewhere but that's politically infeasible in my country.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    14. Re:Oh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      a lot of very interesting practical problems are known to be in NP, and knowing that those problems could be solved in polynomial time would be very useful.

      It get's even more interesting when one considers the already proven fact that any problem in NP can be converted or restated in terms of another problem in NP. So for example, the Subset Sum Problem can be converted into the Boolean Satisfiability Problem or vice-versa. What this means is that if one NP complete problem can be solved in polynomial time with respect to the input, they all can be since any one can be converted into the one that's supposedly solvable in polynomial time. In layman's terms, a solution to one is a solution to all. Of course, all experimental evidence suggests that P != NP, so this is largely of theoretical interest, at least for now.

    15. Re:Oh... by KGIII · · Score: 1

      This is another well worded description. I am impressed with /. tonight. Usually, where mathematics is concerned, I only chuckle at the replies. As a group, we do well with comp sci and physics and even chemistry. Not so much for maths. Not long after I retired, I was invited to and took up the chance to give instruction at the University of Maine at Farmington. While difficult, it's not impossible to give applicable descriptions for difficult mathematics concepts. They're much easier to grasp when put into GOOD examples, such as the above.

      Anyhow, I'd rather be bored than teach college students at a university geared towards creating good teachers. I'm sorry but your children are being educated by people who are as dumb as a box of rocks. They show no sign of improving. I suspect that some of the students, given the above example, would have asked (three weeks later and just prior to an exam) what a jigsaw puzzle was.

      Either way, I don't actually use my mod points but I do appreciate your post. Coupled with the AC's post, above, I have to say I'm impressed. I dare say that both are better than I could have worded it myself. My instruction was by way of LEGO blocks. Yes, yes I had awesome professors. And yes, yes we did have LEGOs back then.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    16. Re: Oh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shut up you inconsiderate clod!

    17. Re: Oh... by KGIII · · Score: 3, Funny

      I am an inconsiderate clod you... Oh, wait...

      In Soviet Russia inconsiderate clods you?

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    18. Re: Oh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are certain classes of problems that are easy to verify a given answer, but very difficult to find a solution. It is not known whether a "simple" algorithm exists (the case where P=NP) that can easily solve these types of problem. Simple in this context means polynomial time. If such an algorithm can be found, it will apply to all such problems and be a huge breakthrough with far reaching applications. However, current information leans towards P!=NP meaning no easy shortcut probably exists. But no one has been able to provide a proof proving either case. If you can solve this problem either way, there is a nice $1 million prize waiting for you and people will sing songs about you.

    19. Re:Oh... by Aereus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The biggest problem with that IMHO, at least around where I live, is people cannot for the life of them zipper merge properly. The average person is a stupid shitty driver is the biggest modeling issue... They wait until the last moment to merge in, they don't equalize speed to traffic flow so they force the people on the highway to break heavily as they enter, the people on the highway don't watch the ramp and try to alleviate issues by maintaining or altering speed slightly, etc. But I'm sure you already knew that. :)

    20. Re:Oh... by KGIII · · Score: 1

      You are, in fact, preaching to the choir, yes. Some days, I hope we do go extinct before we ruin it for the truly enlightened beings that follow us. I could go on, oh, I could... As tempting as it is, well, you're already aware of this. We could have nice things but humans are idiots. I'm glad I'm not a human.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    21. Re:Oh... by mitkey · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A nice explanation, but I can't resist a nitpick: Typical jigsaw puzzles are in P, because for every pair of pieces you can decide whether they fit together or not without having to consider other pieces; therefore solving this amounts to traversing an unoriented graph. An NP jigsaw must have the possibility of multiple pieces fitting one piece in general.

    22. Re:Oh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK, but how do we know that the NP problems actually are a homogenous class? Isn't it more likely that someone finds a smart solution that would reclassify a single NP problem as a P problem without having an impact on other NP problems?

    23. Re:Oh... by Parafilmus · · Score: 1

      This gets mentioned a lot around here and I've never understood. What difference does that equation make either way?

      Here's my crack at a simple explanation:

      P is a class of easy problems that computers can solve quickly.

      NP is a class including hard problems that computers can't seem to solve quickly.

      People are searching for a fast way to solve the hard problems. It's like a holy grail of computer science.

      If someone finds this holy grail, there would be huge consequences. We could quickly solve hard problems like protein folding, which would help us unlock the mysteries of life. Lots of shit would be turned upside down.

      If the grail does exist, that means P and NP are the same set of problems. (P equals NP)

      Many computer scientists suspect the grail does not actually exist. But it hasn't been proven either way.

    24. Re:Oh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      never give layman explanations of stuff. you're not good at it.

    25. Re:Oh... by knightghost · · Score: 1

      Canadians can zipper just fine.

      USA... biggest problem (besides irrational competition when it doesn't matter) is that the current "war on police" means no more traffic enforcement. Drivers have gone from thoughtful to senseless to hazardous.

    26. Re:Oh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, we know that NP problems are a homogeneous class, because there are sufficiently efficient algorithms to transform one NP problems into another NP problem.

      In practice, the transformation might still be somewhat complicated (some are easy, others not so easy), but that's just ordinary CS problem solving.

    27. Re:Oh... by yes-but-no · · Score: 1

      Whether it impacts other NP problems or not depends on the NP problem (p1) that just got a smart solution. p1 no long is NP but goes into P. There is a subset of NP problems called NP-complete (NPC). These are kind of the most tough ones in NP; if one of these got solved in P, all NP are P [ie P == NP]. So if p1 belongs in NPC, it will impact all NP problems else no. [The reason NPC is special is because any NP problem can be transformed to some NPC problem in polynomial time]

    28. Re:Oh... by packrat0x · · Score: 1

      Canadians can zipper just fine.

      USA... biggest problem (besides irrational competition when it doesn't matter) is that the current "war on police" means no more traffic enforcement. Drivers have gone from thoughtful to senseless to hazardous.

      Traffic enforcement in the USA means flashing blue and/or red lights. This causes "on-looker delays".

      --
      227-3517
    29. Re:Oh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A little more commentary.

      NP means non-polynomial, and includes the set of problems that cannot be solved in polynomial time (but rather require exponential time big-O algorithms).

      The computational complexity of a problem is the number of internal iterations required to complete the problem for every item of input. So a polynomial time problem may have a complexity of e.g. x^4, meaning that for 5 inputs there is an internal iteration of 5^5 (3125). Non-polynomial would be e.g. 2^x – so 2^5 = 32.

      With low numbers of iterations it is hard to see how this affects performance, but when one ramps up the iterations to 1000, x^4 becomes 1e12 and 2^x becomes 1e301.

      The travelling salesman is an accessible problem from a layman's perspective. It belongs to a special subset called NP-complete: problems that can be converted in polynomial time to any other NP-complete problem. Therefore solving any NP-complete problem in polynomial time solves them all in polynomial time.

      NP problems can be solved in polynomial time in cases where, with e.g. Monte Carlo algorithms, a.) the outcome is not guaranteed to be correct, and b.) an outcome may not be found.

      The verification time of NP problems is not part of the definition; e.g. prime factorization can be determined in constant-time complexity.

      NP problems are used everywhere. Fourier transforms are used to convert analog signals to digital, and the fast Fourier transform algorithm requires prime factorization.

    30. Re:Oh... by Ummite · · Score: 1

      One of the best analogy for P=NP I've heard about, thanks for sharing.

    31. Re:Oh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Canadians can zipper just fine.

      I would agree from every time I've visited Canada. However, one side of my family is Canadian, and every single one of almost a dozen Canadian relatives that have come to visit me in the US over the years make a comment, "Wow, Americans actually know how to merge, I wish Canadians could do that." I've also bumped into people in Canada saying similar things, that Canadians can't merge, and they are envious of US roads where Americans are polite enough to let people merge properly. Regardless of actual relative skills, for some reason many Canadians don't think people in their country merge while it works just fine in the US.

    32. Re: Oh... by hackwrench · · Score: 1

      You sound like a person who might not have heard the notion that yellow means "clear the intersection" but even if you aren't, I'm posting this here on the off-chance it might help someone who encounters this later.

    33. Re:Oh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If someone finds this holy grail, there would be huge consequences. We could quickly solve hard problems like protein folding, which would help us unlock the mysteries of life. Lots of shit would be turned upside down

      Proving P=NP doesn't guarantee you a method of finding a polynomial solution for any given problem. It would depend on exactly how the proof was done, but the expected outcome is that it would be rather abstract. It might just give you hope that faster solutions exist. But those solutions might be too hard to find, or if found might not be very practical (polynomial computations scale nicer, but they might be slower for the scale of relevance to human work). Plus there are computations harder than NP.

    34. Re:Oh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NP means non-polynomial, and includes the set of problems that cannot be solved in polynomial time (but rather require exponential time big-O algorithms).

      No it does not. NP means non-deterministic polynomial, not non-polynomial. This is pretty damn important and missed on a lot of people. NP covers problems that if you had a perfect guessing machine, that could guess the right answer every time, you could verify that it got the right answer in polynomial time. There are other computation classes that cover things that cannot even verified in polynomial time. NP is a specific, and limited computational category, not a catch-all for everything that doesn't fit in P. There are computations too slow for P and NP, and even if NP=P there would be problems for which no polynomial time solution exists.

      Unfortunately the rest of your post continues to miss things. If you are really interested in the subject, please read up on it more from a reasonable source.

    35. Re: Oh... by hackwrench · · Score: 1

      You mention people who wait til the last moment to merge, but what about the people who don't give enough space to merge.

    36. Re:Oh... by die+standing · · Score: 1

      Traffic flow would be analogous to fluid flow, but fluid isn't stupid.

    37. Re:Oh... by Cederic · · Score: 1

      In Texas they're strobe lights too.

      I was pretty much in tears after driving through Dallas. After I calmed down and thought it through, it wasn't the 800 miles I'd already driven that day or the pain of dealing with roadworks in Dallas, it was the sensory overload caused by strobe lights on police cars.

      I could migrate to Texas - friends and jobs already there - but it's not worth the mental pain involved in driving at night.

    38. Re:Oh... by Cederic · · Score: 1

      I went hunting for a source that could tell me what polynomials and polynomial time are too.

      All these 'great description' comments are from people that have the CS/maths education to understand them.

      The rest of us have other skills.

    39. Re:Oh... by pushing-robot · · Score: 1

      Indeed, though large boards often use the same cut many times. Sudoku would have been a better comparison but went with the physicality of the jigsaw metaphor.

      Thanks for the correction!

      --
      How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
    40. Re:Oh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The second result from searching Google for polynomial time: Time Complexity on Wikipedia. You might not be able to understand everything in the whole article, but it does use plain English for introductions to most of the sections including what polynomial time is. That should also give you plenty of keywords to look up, so you can find even gentler introductions by just searching for time complexity or big-o notation if you still don't know what those mean.

      And if you don't know what a polynomial is, even with a refresher by just looking that up on Wikipedia... then unfortunately without basic algebra you're not going to be able to follow along with most programming or abstract math talk to any amount of detail. There is kind of a minimum amount of background need for some topics short of making such a description that is so superficial, it won't teach anything.

      There is nothing wrong with having other skills. There is a problem when a person tries to speak from authority on skills they don't have (some other posts on this subject), or if a person has expectations of everything catering to them without spending some time catching up on a few topics or looking to learn themselves.

    41. Re:Oh... by the+gnat · · Score: 1

      traffic optimization *is* hard

      Veering off on a tangent here - is there a good introduction to this subject suitable for an advanced newcomer? I've been curious about this ever since I started driving on California freeways regularly in the last few years, and realized how poorly optimized many of the interchanges are for actual humans. (Anyone who has ever driven past Emeryville will know what I'm talking about.) I always pictured it as some kind of particle dynamics problem, except the particles are irrational, rage-filled morons.

    42. Re:Oh... by the+gnat · · Score: 1

      the current "war on police" means no more traffic enforcement

      Pulling over all of the black drivers does not count as "traffic enforcement".

    43. Re:Oh... by FrozenGeek · · Score: 1

      Math is hard.

      Or, more accurately, math is believed to be hard.

      Or, more completely, math is believed to be hard by humans, a species known to be shy on intelligence.

      --
      linquendum tondere
    44. Re:Oh... by locofungus · · Score: 1

      I think it's because if two lanes go down to one and the one lane has a speed of 60 then the only two ways to get maximum flow is to either:

      a. double the gap between the cars prior to merging so that the merge can happen at 60.

      b. merge ahead of the single lane so that the merging speed is around 30 but there's time to accelerate again before the single lane.

      a. feels smoothest and can be done with minimal speed changes but, once it goes wrong causes a merge speed of zero at the pinch point until it sorts itself out again.

      b. works provided there aren't too many arseholes who zoom past the point the lanes are merging. Often this can be controlled by drivers merging into one lane over a much longer distance than necessary.

      It's frustrating when you get to the pinch point at a low speed and then accelerate because that pretty much proves it lack of planning and anticipation by other drivers has held you up. (unless you're that arsehole who braked hard at the last minute to merge and then had to accelerate again forcing others to do the same)

      --
      God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = -@B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.
    45. Re:Oh... by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Yes, there are some now. I was at the cusp which is why I'm where I am today. I am a mathematician - I modeled traffic 'on a computer.' Which, to be fair, meant dealing with TB sized data sets in the late 90s. It's still a fairly young industry. I'd expected to remain in academia but was offered a no-bid contract for the State of Massachusetts via way of my advisor while still doing my thesis - well, preparing to defend it. Needless to say, it was *very* lucrative and expansion started almost as soon as I accepted the contract.

      I literally had business before I'd even really gotten started on collecting real world data. Eventually, I was offered a sizable chunk of money and sold my business. The new parent company does nothing, pretty much, but fill government contracts in a variety of areas such as logistics, security, information technology, and even food stuffs. That might narrow them down a little. They're almost a household name. Me? I won the lottery, so to speak. No great skills, I guess, just a person at the right place, at the right time, and able to take the risks associated.

      I mention that because I've seen some of your other posts. It may be something you can get into - it's not easy but it is lucrative.

      Start here:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      This might be a little below you but maybe not - it's a good grounding:
      http://ashley-transport-modell...
      Note: I may be biased, a little, by the author of the above - they do good work. They also excel in being able to describe things without being overly verbose.

      Disclosure: I had personal involvement in this project. This is not an answer. This is a good descriptor which you can use to find other answers or, if you want, to learn which questions need asking:
      http://web.mit.edu/professiona...

      Working our way up a little, this is an easy to read and information-filled paper, I know the authors by reputation and may be tangentially cited IIRC but I'm too lazy to double check:
      http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/v...

      I'm not sure how much I can disclose, I'm pretty much forever covered by an NDA and a non-compete. Let's just say that I'm intimately familiar with this program:
      http://www.dot.state.fl.us/pla...
      That is not an answer or anything but might give you an idea of some of what we did beyond just vehicular traffic models.

      We also did pedestrian traffic (think malls, grocery stores, a museum or two, hazard plans for large in-planning-stage buildings, and even outdoor events where traffic might be constricted or at stadiums). That's a whole other bowl of wax. As I was entering, it was just starting to maybe reach a bit of maturity - it still hasn't. It has only really been an idea since the 50s, I guess. It has been done, to some extent, since the 70s. However, I jumped in in the late 1980s and early 90s. The times were changing and compute power, specifically storage and compute cycles as well as RAM, were getting to be more accessible.

      My email address works and is real. Once you've digested those, feel free to ping me. If you've a penchant then you may only need cross-training to work as a Traffic Engineer. Traffic Engineers are not the same as modelers but they may also do modeling. In the end, I employed about 200 people in three offices and two skeleton offices. Many of which were considered traffic engineers but were also programmers or the likes. We split into two teams with lots of cross-over. I'm not sure why companies don't train so often today. It's actually a good idea and we had an absurdly low turn-over rate. (Low enough to where I'd expect you to call me a liar if I told

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    46. Re:Oh... by locofungus · · Score: 1

      No. Every problem in NP cannot be converted to every other problem. (unless P=NP)

      There are 'hardest' problems in NP that every problem in NP can be converted into.

      But there is an infinite number of 'difficulty' levels and problems cannot be converted to an easier problem.

      (you do mention NP complete in your second sentence so I suspect you 'miswrote' rather than misunderstand.)

      --
      God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = -@B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.
    47. Re:Oh... by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but math *is* hard. Of course, it's also easy. It depends on exactly what problem you're looking at.

      Consider Goldbach's Conjecture...something easy to understand, and probably true, but so far unproven. Or the distance between adjacent primes. Given all the primes up to some point, predict the next one. Sometimes you can, but most of the time there's no known way.

      But the number of sides on square is easy. So it can be either. And simple statements can be enourmously complex to prove, but you often don't know until after you've tried. Consider the four-color theorum. Even the new simplified proof is still quite complex.

      P.S.: I'm only a mathematician in so far as I'm a programmer. Which counts, but it's a specialization that's so useful people generally don't think of programmers as mathematicians.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    48. Re:Oh... by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Well, it depends. If the proof isn't a constructive proof then it wouldn't weaken current cryptography any more than the possibility of quantum computers does. But it would imply that if you found the right approach it would be a lot weaker, without giving much clue as to what the right approach was. But quantum computers are already being built. (Possibly not useful ones, and perhaps useful ones are impossible, but...)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    49. Re:Oh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Self-driving cars.

      Enough said.

    50. Re:Oh... by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Self-driving cars.

      Not a viable solution at this time.

      Enough said.

      No, you could just as well have said "magic fairy dust" and been almost as accurate. They'll be here, eventually. It won't be like you're expecting nor will it be in the time frame you're expecting. If you disagree, find an escrow service and put up some numbers and I'll be willing to make a large bet with you. Let's play a game, shall we?

      I'll give you 5:1 odds for 10 years, following today's date, that the percentage of fully autonomous private transport vehicles on the highways, world wide, will be no higher than 10%. If you're willing to put the money into escrow then I'll take the bet. Minimal input, from you, is $5000 USD - I'll put up $25000 no later than Tuesday afternoon, say 1400 hrs EDT. Reliable escrow only - I'll need to vet their history and reputation, full total of monies must be paid at time of accepting the bet. Withdrawal from the bet prior to the date, ten years hence, will result in a 50% forfeiture - applicable to both parties. Any applicable escrow fees to be paid by the winner, of course. If you want to make it more interesting. then I'll take the wager and you can opt to raise the wager amount to $20000 USD.

      There's the chance for you to win a year's salary. It'll happen but it's going to be a long time in the coming. I'm so positive of this that I'm willing to stake this. You have approximately 48 hours to decide. For those who think that autonomous vehicles are a viable solution, again I say, "The math is hard." There are lots of places where autonomy will (and should) work - even in the short term. However, they're not a solution and won't be for a while.

      Ah well... LOL Sorry, wandered a bit off topic there but I'm gonna post it anyhow. I've offered and nobody's taken me up on it yet. The human brain is still faster than a computer. We're gonna have people driving for a while to come. So, no, it's not really a viable solution - not yet at any rate. I do expect to see more autonomy but not complete autonomy and we're looking for theoretical perfection not partial improvements.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    51. Re:Oh... by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Hang on, what is the current vehicle replacement rate? If you start right now and every new vehicle is fully autonomous, what fraction of the total national vehicle fleet could you expect to have converted in only 10 years?

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    52. Re:Oh... by Pseudonym · · Score: 1

      At least the moderators got the joke.

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    53. Re:Oh... by jewens · · Score: 1

      You mean like a Shmuzzle (tm).

      --
      That group of bovine standing over there appears quite portentous. That's right it's an ominous cow herd.
    54. Re:Oh... by tigersha · · Score: 1

      Oh Hi Barbie! Long time no see!

      --
      The dangers of excessive individualism are nothing compared to the oppressiveness of excessive collectivism
    55. Re:Oh... by cwsumner · · Score: 1

      ... It's frustrating when you get to the pinch point at a low speed and then accelerate because that pretty much proves it lack of planning and anticipation...

      The act of accellerating should be what opens the gap behind you for the car in the next lane to merge into. And vice-versa.
      That means that the accelleration should be moderate and even, so the gaps open as needed.

      Unfortunatly, many local authoraties -lower- the speed limit at the merge instead of increasing it, thinking that they are for "safety". What it actually does is, lowering the spead limit as the cars merge causes accidents and reduces safety!

      In that case drivers have to reduce speed -before- the merge so that they can open gaps -at- the merge. So there is a traffic backup.

    56. Re:Oh... by cwsumner · · Score: 1

      Math is hard.

      Or, more accurately, math is believed to be hard.

      Or, more completely, math is believed to be hard by humans, a species known to be shy on intelligence.

      The Universe is hard! Things only seem easy when we are accustomed to them, and have forgotten how hard it was when we started... 8-)

    57. Re:Oh... by kmoser · · Score: 1

      Quantum mechanics is hard...but also easy.

    58. Re:Oh... by locofungus · · Score: 1

      The act of accellerating should be what opens the gap behind you for the car in the next lane to merge into.

      Yes but it needs to happen so that by the time you've actually reached the pinch point you're doing the correct speed.

      Two lanes of traffic doing 30mph. They merge as they accelerate to 60 which opens up the gap. If they don't start accelerating before they merge then they enter the pinch at 30 - which means that the two lines of traffic behind are doing 15 etc.

      (Ignoring increasing gap size between cars as the speed increases so it's not quite as simple as divide the speed by two but it's a good rule of thumb provided the traffic volume isn't too high.)

      --
      God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = -@B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.
    59. Re:Oh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm trying to imagine the problem of making it all work perfectly with a bunch of perfectly behaving drones that mostly get their own cars. I don't know if we're really doing all that bad considering, but the real problem IMO, is everybody getting their own car. I wish I could ditch mine and rent as-needed but lack of reasonable alternatives forces my wife to use ours.

      Roundabouts are horrifying. It's like a series of lane merges which always results in high-stress decision-making as most road decisions are made about what's in front of you. Once you have to pay attention to the sides simultaneously several times in a row, that's outside of more familiar territory and people get spooked. You might not, but people do.

      It actually blows my mind that most people can actually drive successfully most of the time given the sorts of skill and decision-making they exhibit in an office environment.

    60. Re: Oh... by Plumpaquatsch · · Score: 1

      You sound like a person who might not have heard the notion that yellow means "clear the intersection" but even if you aren't, I'm posting this here on the off-chance it might help someone who encounters this later.

      Okay, sorry to tell you, but that makes no sense. Anyone who would be able (or rather need) to "clear the intersection" shouldn't be able to see the yellow light (well, there may be some intersections with the lights on the exit side), and if you can see the yellow light, it shouldn't be uses as an excuse to enter the intersection just so you can then clear it.

      --
      Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
    61. Re:Oh... by Plumpaquatsch · · Score: 1

      Traffic flow would be analogous to fluid flow, but fluid isn't stupid.

      Sure, if you define "not stupid" as being satisfied with the right amount of cars arriving at a destination, instead of bringing specific cars from source to destination.

      --
      Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
    62. Re:Oh... by iisan7 · · Score: 1

      Just curious -- do you believe that more rigorous driver training can reduce this problem? Or requiring driver re-certifications? In general, tackling the driver education side of the problem rather than the design/engineering side.

    63. Re:Oh... by KGIII · · Score: 1

      This is one thing that engineering can not, currently, completely resolve. It is my opinion that we need more educated drivers. With educated drivers, for instance, we'd never need a single stop sign.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  3. They developed a "cutting plane?" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I believe someone already invented a knife, guys.

  4. Bad news for them by goombah99 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I guess they never heard of the "No Free Lunch" theorem for optimization, which believe it or not is the name of a proven theorem by David Wolpert that says the following is rigrorously true.
    Averaged over all optimization problems every possible algorithm (that does not repeat a previous move) takes exactly the same amount of time to find the global minimum.

    The collorary for this is that: If you show your algorithm outperforms other algorithms on a test set, then you have just proven it performs slower on all other problems.

    That is the better it works on a finite class of problem, the worse it is on most problems.

    it is even true that a hill climbing algorithm blunders into the minimum in the same average time as a hill descending algorithm. (yes that is true!).

    Look it up. It's the bane of people who don't understand optimization.

    The only things that distinguishes one optimization algorithm from another is:
    1) if your problems are restricted to a subspace with special properties that your algorithm takes advantage of
    2) your performance metric is different then the average time it takes to find the global minimum. for example, something that limits the worst case time to get within epsilon of the minimum.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    1. Re:Bad news for them by goombah99 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      To be fair, the actual article doesn't claim to violate the no free lunch theorem because it only applies to "some" problems. It's the headline that violates the no free lunch theorem. But one aspect of the no-free-lunch theorem that usually proves to be insanely diabolical is that it turns out that it's usually VERY hard to define which problems an alogorithm will do best on in general. Often you can see a specific set for which it is obvious. But as you complicate things the obviousness part goes out the window. FOr example, if you know your surface is convex and has a very simple shape like a multidimensional parabola, then it's trivial to hill descend to the bottom. But once you start putting in multiple minima and arbitrary discontinuities it becomes hard. Interestingly in high dimensional spaces know something is smooth isn't very useful as smoothness only removes a low number of degrees of freedom--leaving behind a smaller but still high dimensional space.

      Thus if there is a breakthrough here it's not the algorithm, it would be the ability to specify what kinds of problems this will work well on!

      --
      Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    2. Re:Bad news for them by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      Wow. I've solved optimization problems, both at school and at work, but your comment shows me how much I don't know about the topic. Fascinating.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    3. Re:Bad news for them by Pseudonym · · Score: 1

      Averaged over all optimization problems [...]

      ...most of which have optimisation functions which are incompressible and hence do not fit on current computers...

      [...] every possible algorithm (that does not repeat a previous move) takes exactly the same amount of time to find the global minimum.

      The NFL theorem relies on all problems being equally likely. In practice, there are many known classes of problem where known algorithms do close-enough-to-optimal on problems which turn up in practice, and also can tell if they were given a problem which they can't do well on.

      Incidentally, the proviso that it "does not repeat a previous move" is an interesting one. The proof of correctness of the Metropolis-Hastings algorithm (to pick one example) relies on the fact that the transition probability for its proposals is symmetric (that is, Q(x|y) = Q(y|x)).

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    4. Re:Bad news for them by gumbi+west · · Score: 1

      The proof of correctness of the Metropolis-Hastings algorithm (to pick one example) relies on the fact that the transition probability for its proposals is symmetric (that is, Q(x|y) = Q(y|x)).

      That's the Metropolis-Hastings algorithm in chapter 1. The one in the rest of the book doesn't assume that. However, it does assume that the probability is non-zero.

    5. Re:Bad news for them by Twinbee · · Score: 1

      Well then why have optimization algs at all? Why not just use brute force and be done with?

      As you know, patterns in the real world have structure to them and have dips and valleys, characteristic shapes, and repeating fractal elements. I think what you don't appreciate enough is that there are classes of optimization algorithms (e.g: genetic algorithms or neural networks) which have a very GENERIC way of working with MANY kinds of search spaces, some of which one can't even imagine.

      What you say about all algs being equally bad/bad would only apply to search spaces that are completely random. In this case, then any algorithm is about as good as brute force.

      Kinda like the relativistic view on maths instead of aesthetics, but no less distasteful :P There's a lot we can still learn and improve on contrary to your view.

      --
      Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
    6. Re:Bad news for them by goombah99 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I totally agree with you. I indeed left out the issue of incompressible optimization functions and their infeasibility in memory. More generally, I also believe that the NFL threorem does not imply despair but rather that the problems that interest humans are a tiny subspace of all possible problems. On this subspace better average performance is entirely plausible. The rub, is that to make that claim you have to be able to specify what the subspace of interest to humans in. I think you might be able to define that in terms of algorithmic complexity. But that alone doesn't tell you if your algorithm must be better than another one on all problems of a specified maximum complexity. Thus any time someone says their algorithms outperform without telling us in what subspace they achieve this there is no proof of superior performance. Since the paper actually does make this claim it's confusing to sort out how they are limiting the problem. Likely this is my own failing at understanding their mathermatical definitions.

      to be more complete. the NFL theorem ignores the computational cost of deciding the next move in the search as well. so really the NFL is counting the average number of guesses required not the time.

      Your statement that NFL relies on all problems being equally likely is very close to equvalent to my statement that the subspace of problems of interest to humans is smaller than the subspace of all problems. So I think were in agreement.

      The NFL does not imply optimization is hopeless. It just says a claim of improved speed is dubious till you tell us what subspace of problem you improved it on. This is what I stated to begin with. If an algorithm is faster on some problems then it's slower on most other problems.

      --
      Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    7. Re:Bad news for them by goombah99 · · Score: 2

      This "non-repeat" issue is a red herring. The proviso on "not repeat" is not meant to exclude reversable trajectories. It simply means that going back to an earlier state will be a free-pass in terms of counting moves. We won't add that to your count. So this has nothing to do with the applicability of the no-free-lunch theorem

      --
      Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    8. Re:Bad news for them by goombah99 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Right. I don't disagree. The sublty of the NFL theorem is not in its crass conclusion that brute force is just as good as anyhting else. it's in the realization first that algorithms only work on subspaces well. And that the real trick is not in creating the algorithm but being able to say what subspace it works well on.

      TO see that consider the following thought experiment. imagine we divide the space of all problems into many subspaces and on each of these subspaces we have a very fast algorithm. Surely then this defeats the NFL theorem? No. The time it takes to decide what subspace solver to use, plus the time it takes to use it would be the same as brute force.

      Thus anytime one says an algorithm is better, if you can't say when it's better, one hasn't quite solved the issue.

      The escape clause is that it's very likely the class of problems humans care about is a very small subspace of all problems. But defining what that meansis hard.

      --
      Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    9. Re:Bad news for them by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Marshal and HInton did some work on this. It's a good read. I'll find it for you.

      http://arxiv.org/pdf/0907.1597...

      An interesting quote in 1.1 would be:

      Subsequently it was shown that the No Free Lunch theorem only holds if the set of objective functions under consideration is closed under permutation (c.u.p.).

      It's worth a read. IIRC, it was cited later by Hinkley and further work has been done since then but, well, I'm kind of lazy at the moment. Either way, it's worth looking at if you're curious and have been out of academia for a while.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    10. Re:Bad news for them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The collorary for this is that: If you show your algorithm outperforms other algorithms on a test set, then you have just proven it performs slower on all other problems.

      No

    11. Re:Bad news for them by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Indeed. I've given it a bit of a scan at this point (posted up-thread) and it appears that, with first glance, the best way to describe it (to this crowd) is optimized sub-routines in a program. It looks like optimization done where the additional data is being inserted, calculated, and run. It's sort of like, I guess, object oriented programming (for lack of a more accurate description). I can see this coming in handy in traffic modeling and will give it a good, more thorough, read later to see what I can glean from it. It "just" looks more like an efficient method of inserting data and a more efficient way to insert more data than before. The word 'just' is used lightly in this case.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    12. Re:Bad news for them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But you still haven't explained why you guess that MIT graduate students working in the field of algorithms have never heard of the no free lunch theorem.

    13. Re:Bad news for them by goombah99 · · Score: 1

      Yes I did explain in the follow up post to my original post. I said that the paper made no such claim. Instead it was the headlines that made the claim.

      --
      Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    14. Re:Bad news for them by goombah99 · · Score: 1

      THanks. I've read that. I think if you look at some of my other responses above that you will see that I agree that C.U.P problems are not of interest to humans. The real issue is not that. The issue is defining which algorithms are useful for which kinds of subsets of problems (each of which is non C.U.P. but in a different way. That is, unless you can say what your algorithm is good for (clearly) then all you are doing us fracturing the subspace of all problems into subsets but you still don't know when to use that algorithm. There can't be a universal algorithm that is best for all cases.
       

      --
      Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    15. Re:Bad news for them by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Oh, I agree entirely. I just thought you might find it interesting if you'd never read it. I was kind of fascinated by their process but their outcome was as anticipated - they didn't conclude anything "new" or "revolutionary" really. Also, to be fair, I'm a human (sort of) and this is of interest to me, albeit reflectively. My company modeled traffic - vehicular and then increased model pedestrian, as well. (To give a small hint - I sold in 2007 and, obviously, retired. If you know the market then you can probably make some assumptions from there.)

      Either way, assuming you meant the typical human, you're entirely correct. They have no interest at all. It may well impact their lives, however. I did some initial scanning of the paper and did some speculation as to how it might be used further up the thread and specifically with my area of interest. I lacked the time and willpower to go into depth but I think I summed up what it looks like they're improving on.

      I'm forced to wonder, do people actually understand the complexity? Even when you've the finest algorithm in the theoretical world - as soon as you take it out to mash it up with real world data, you find it's crap. No, there will be no universal optimization (no free lunch, indeed). If anything, the increased complexity and increased compute power mean we're going to end up with something akin to a fractal. How long, exactly, is the coast of the United Kingdom, anyhow?

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    16. Re:Bad news for them by Beck_Neard · · Score: 1

      Look at the big brain on Brad.

      Anyway, this has nothing to do with no free lunch... read the goddamn article if you want to know what the authors are actually saying. http://arxiv.org/abs/1508.0487...

      It's an asymptotic speedup for certain classes of problems.

      --
      A fool and his hard drive are soon parted.
    17. Re: Bad news for them by robi5 · · Score: 1

      The fact that people obviously versed in the art are commenting on Slashdot, rather than excitedly hunching over the algorithm, putting it in whatever they work on, is telltale sign that it's not as revolutionary as the gushing summary states.

    18. Re:Bad news for them by Sqr(twg) · · Score: 1

      By the title of the paper -- A Faster Cutting Plane Method and its Implications for Combinatorial and Convex Optimization -- I would say that they are not trying to provide a truly general optimization algorithm, but one that is specific to combinatorial and convex optimization. Hence, the NFL theorem is not violated.

      TFA headline gives the impression that they would be talking about a truly general algorithm, but this is actually a manifestation of the "No Competent Editor" theorem.
       

    19. Re:Bad news for them by ledow · · Score: 2

      It's naive to believe that such a thing is universal to an entire problem set, and is as solid as colloquially suggested.

      But, more than that, optimisations like this often work by transforming one type of problem into a related, but different, equivalent problem. In doing that you are indeed shifting problems between problem spaces and, thus, between algorithms of different optimisation. Though there is some conversion involved, it is by no means guaranteed that such conversion is just as hard as solving the original problem.

      If even 10% of your problems can be reduced simply to an equivalent problem with a solution that can be 11% faster, then you've made a step forward.

      Mistaking NFL for a universal theorem of mathematics, or even optimisation, is a critical error in thinking.

    20. Re:Bad news for them by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      I guess they never heard of the "No Free Lunch" theorem for optimization

      What makes you say that?

      Averaged over all optimization problems every possible algorithm (that does not repeat a previous move) takes exactly the same amount of time to find the global minimum. The collorary for this is that: If you show your algorithm outperforms other algorithms on a test set, then you have just proven it performs slower on all other problems.

      The only things that distinguishes one optimization algorithm from another is:
      1) if your problems are restricted to a subspace with special properties that your algorithm takes advantage of

      So? This insight you offer is not interesting.

      There are many, many, many cases where we perform optimizations in some sort of subspace. A very common one being for example, convex optimization.

      The thing is, non convex optimizations are not generally solvable in finite time anyway, so frankly who cares if the algorithm just got a whole lot slower on problems for which you could never find a solution. Actually, I'd go as far as to claim all useful optimizations are on a rather restricted subspace. Here's a problem, find the global optimum of: truncated_gaussian(sigma) * delta(x), where * is convolution. And sigma tends towards 0. And x is some transcendental number I'm thinking of. Basically, the problem is equivalent to saying: I'm thinking of a number. I'll give you no clues but you need to guess it. That's not a useful optimization problem to solve.

      I don't really care if a convex optimization just went from taking infinity time to solve that problem to 1000 infinity time, and frankly, neither does anyone else.

      it is even true that a hill climbing algorithm blunders into the minimum in the same average time as a hill descending algorithm. (yes that is true!).

      Also, no, hill descending and hill climbing won't both take the same time to find a global maximum on average. Both of them will stop taking steps, or if you prefer, taking the same non step over and over and over. Algorithms that do that are not guaranteed to ever converge, so they will take infinite time on average. The NFL theorem is *specifically* about algorithms which never repeat steps. In the case of hill climbing, it will converge to the maximum on some problems, but hill descending never will.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    21. Re:Bad news for them by Pseudonym · · Score: 1

      That makes more sense. I figured it couldn't be that simple...

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    22. Re:Bad news for them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This paper is about convex optimization, so your comment doesn't apply.

    23. Re: Bad news for them by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      The title of their paper says it's a complex optimization algorithm.

    24. Re:Bad news for them by goombah99 · · Score: 1

      The coast of the united kingdom is exactly 43 long, but I'm still working out what undiscovered units that is in. :-)

      --
      Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    25. Re:Bad news for them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a student in graduate classes in the late 90's I posited that one could isolate non-polynomial time elements by converting the problem to SAT Horne-clauses (at most one positive literal), which takes polynomial time, and then it becomes apparent which parts are solvable in polynomial time, and which part requires exponential time.

      We saw some excellent results, but never had time to publish. We called it MARMOSET (Marmoset Automated Reasoner Mostly Only Solves Easy Theorems).

      I wonder how it compares to what they MIT team has done here.

    26. Re:Bad news for them by cwsumner · · Score: 1

      ... 1) if your problems are restricted to a subspace with special properties that your algorithm takes advantage of ....

      Any Engineer knows that -all- problems are of form 1. Solving things for all possible cases is a Mathematician's fantasy! 8-)

    27. Re:Bad news for them by mesterha · · Score: 1

      This article is the real deal as they do address what types of optimization problems and give bounds on the speedups over previous techniques. In addition, cutting plane techniques have proven to be very successful at solving integer programming problems and have yielded good/optimal solutions to large NP-hard problems such as traveling salesman.

      As for the NFL theorem, it's not very surprising. By looking over all optimization problems you are considering an enormous set of functions. The "average" function in this set is going to look like noise. In the discrete case, NFL just amounts to finding the minimum value in an array. As we all know, you have to look at all the values to guarantee you found the minimum.

      --

      Chris Mesterharm
    28. Re:Bad news for them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most problems are meaningless anyways via Hilbert's 10th, so the No Free Lunch theorem does not really say anything. In other words, most of the functions we want to find meaning in are already meaningful. The end effect of the No Free Lunch theorem is simply to discourage people from finding efficient solutions to problems.

      It's like saying, given ten numbers in random order, selected from a uniform distribution over all possible orders, if an algorithm does better on some inputs it will do worse on others. Clearly. But is it really helpful? How often are we trying to find random number in randomly ordered sets of numbers?

      The opposite of the No Free Lunch theorem would be the Free Lunch theorem: Given a list with some property P, we can exploit that property P to make a more efficient algorithm.

      I prefer the Free Lunch theorem, as it sees the glass as half full, rather than half empty.

    29. Re:Bad news for them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Once they encapsulate it in C++, we ll know better how good it is solve specific problems, in general. (!). As long as the time gains announced are not based on computing tricks opcode style. (Isnt the included pic a representation of an octree?)

  5. Smartphone thickness by Dracos · · Score: 2

    Is not an attribute to penalize. Thicker phones are sturdier (less prone to bending, among other things), easier to grip (more surface area on the edges, where you grip it while talking, and feel more substantial. Phone cases offer protection for the device and mitigate all these shortcomings.

    Looking back, Zoolander only got one dimension right when it comes to phone size. The joke now would be a phone that is the size of a sheet of paper (and the 13.9" screen has 6204ppi).

    1. Re:Smartphone thickness by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

      My understanding is that there's a certain optimal thickness for a phone and any design element that forces the phone to be thicker makes it less desirable.

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    2. Re:Smartphone thickness by fredgiblet · · Score: 1

      To a degree. No one wants to be carrying around a brick that they need to use a fanny pack to hold when it's not in use. Similarly a credit card sized phone would also be less than useful. But if you have a thickness you feel is appropriate then anything thicker would be undesirable.

    3. Re: Smartphone thickness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny enough, we used to do this. Old cell phones had to stay in the car because they came with a big box hooked up to the cigarette lighter.

  6. Citations of the No Free Lunch theorems by goombah99 · · Score: 1
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  7. No it's not a special case by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is not a special case for a given data set, its a basic improvement in cutting-plane performance, and a derivation of special cases which can gain up to n^6 in speed. So given a problem, you would decide which class it falls into and write your optimization code to gain the smaller speedup, or the larger speedup.

    This is NOT an engineering tweak to a gradient solver!

    1. Re:No it's not a special case by goombah99 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Averaged over all problems, the time it takes to figure out which special case one has plus the time to solve that special case has to be the same as any other algorithm. The escape clause is if when you say "cutting plane" you are intrisically restricting the problem to a special case. In that case alrgorithmic speedups are plausible. Likewise is cutting plane is a class of algorithm and you are comparing variations on that particular class of algorithm then speed ups are again plausible. But if all possible problems are addressed as cutting plane problems then No it is not possible for there to be any average speed up.

      But please realize that all is not lost. It is very likely that all problems of interest to humans is a tiny set of the space of all possible problems. It may well be that we are only interested in a very special subspace. I'd even bet on it. But defining what that subspace is will be hard.

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  8. I don't understand. by Art3x · · Score: 3, Funny

    I read the summary. I didn't understand it. Then I read the article. I didn't understand it either.

    1. Re:I don't understand. by Kwyj1b0 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Consider minimizing x^2 when x can take values in -10 to 10 (we know the answer is 0, since we only consider real valued numbers). If we wanted to solve this problem, there are several approaches; some example approaches are: randomly try a lot of different values, set the derivative to zero, or try a cutting plane algorithm. In general, we might not know the analytical expression for the function we are trying to minimize (or it might be too complex) so we can't really find the derivative efficiently. Derivatives can also be computationally expensive to compute, so let's ignore that approach.

      What we can do is to say let me find a solution for which the function is less than some threshold t, and then keep reducing t till I can't find any more solutions; this is what the article meant by finding a smaller circle inside a larger one (for each value of t, I try to find solutions that are smaller than t).

      What cutting planes do is chop up the original function in to pieces - in some pieces, I know the value will be much larger than my threshold (so I don't have to search in those pieces), and in others it might be smaller - I focus on searching these pieces to find a value that is smaller than my threshold (after which I can reduce the threshold and try again). This is what (in a simplistic sense) cutting plane algorithms do; they chop up my search space.

      How we select the points for chopping is crucial - bad choices (say choosing one point after another at random, or trying points very close to each other), I spend a lot of time chopping unnecessarily (or not benefiting from chopping by much). We also want to make sure our cuts really do divide the problem in to pieces which I can discard searching, and those pieces I discard should (ideally) be quite large. Until this work, the time taken to decide where to chop was n^3.373; they brought down the time to n^3 (where n is the number of variables that the function I am trying to minimize takes as inputs).

      They also said that for special classes of functions, they can really improve the total computation time significantly (from n^6 to n^2).

      I'm glossing over (and am certain I've got some details wrong) many issues to give a taste of the big picture idea of cutting plane approaches in general; there has been decades of work on these problems that you can read (I recommend anything written by Prof. Stephen Boyd as an introduction to some of this research).

    2. Re: I don't understand. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great explanation. Glossed over the paper myself and reached about the same conclusion. Except I didn't catch the part where they apparently quantify their contribution.

    3. Re:I don't understand. by Art3x · · Score: 1

      Thank you for trying to explain it to me. I guess I should say I don't understand how the theoretical meets the practical here. Then again, I'm just a web programmer.

      The theoretical. Sure, I read the article about a circle and trying to find the better, smaller circle within it, and I can imagine slicing into the circle to find it. No problem there.

      The practical. Also, I noticed how they started off with real-world problems like designing the thinnest, most durable smartphone with the longest battery life.

      But I don't see how designing a smartphone has anything to do with a circle, or a circle within a circle, or slicing the larger circle to find the smaller one. If I want to design a smartphone that's thin, then I will seek the thinnest of each of: battery, processor, etc....

      Oh, I get it. The thinner I make the phone, the smaller the battery. The larger the battery, the thicker the smartphone. Likewise, thickness and durability are related. I guess I forgot that they have very complex formulae figured out to tell them ahead of time exactly how durable a material will be at a given thickness and a given shape, exactly how much charge a battery of a given size holds, exactly how much charge a given component will consume, etc. So they have all these number floating around, and normally they try different combinations to arrive at the best compromise. Or they have some formulae for doing some of the recombinations for them, but they're slow. And these researchers say that they have found a way to speed that last part up.

      I guess industrial designers are a lot further along than I normally imagine them. Normally I imagine them just trying different stuff, sketching it out until looks nice (first on paper napkins, then in 3-D computer programs); then trying different materials; then trying the materials at different thicknesses (or going by past experience, learning that, say, 3mm of magnesium is ideal at this particular point).

  9. They should optimize their algorithm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If their algorithm is any good then they should run it on their algorithm.

    Imagine the results. Mind blown.

    1. Re:They should optimize their algorithm by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 1

      What's simpler than a P problem?

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  10. The two key contributions by Kwyj1b0 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Some very interesting results, but the two key contributions are (almost verbatim from the article):
    1) With the best general-purpose cutting-plane method, the time required to select each new point to test was proportional to the number of elements raised to the power 3.373. Sidford, Lee, and Wong get that down to 3.
    2) And in many of those cases (submodular minimization, submodular flow, matroid intersection, and semidefinite programming), they report dramatic improvements in efficiency, from running times that scale with the fifth or sixth power of the number of variables down to the second or third power.

    So this seems to be a better cutting plane approach that improves the cutting process by reducing the time to find the next test point (in general), and for certain structured problems (like SDPs) this approach reduces the computation time significantly.

    This does raise some interesting questions, such as: is there a limit to how fast you can (in a general problem, not using a specific problem's structure) find the next test point? Even if we don't know what algorithm gets us there, it would be useful to have a bound for future research.

    1. Re: The two key contributions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These guys have worked on these for a long time and developed nice results. By the results I already knew which Lee it is, specifically. Though with few exceptions the work is still mostly theoretical and are infeasible in practice.

    2. Re:The two key contributions by IceAgeComing · · Score: 1

      From my reading of the English sections of their paper (someone had fun with LaTeX equations in that one), I see worst-case running times for problems where it is assumed an Oracle (a subroutine) can provide the answer to a certain question in constant time, or at least a low-complexity amount of time. The running times are given *with respect to an Oracle*, meaning that the running time of the Oracle is not considered in the worst-case running time.

      It is known that for certain specific kinds of problems, the best-known Oracle runs in exponential time (or space, but this is equivalent to time). But that doesn't mean there aren't other, interesting problems where an Oracle could be more efficient.

      This Wikipedia article on a certain kind of Oracle mentioned in the paper provides some information:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    3. Re:The two key contributions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This algorithm was actually not developed by these guys. It was originally developed by a professor at my university. It appears all they did was tweak the algorithm slightly.

  11. Are you Jeremy Clarkson? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "Averaged over all problems, the time it takes to figure out which special case one has plus the time to solve that special case has to be the same as any other algorithm."

    In practice you know what type of problem you're solving, and use the appropriate approach.

    So for example a Neural Network 'fast solve' is currently derived as a back propagation gradient solver. The math is resolved like that and then coded like that. My stock predictor algo is a cutting plane solver because I can exclude large amounts of suboptimal results very quickly.

    Your thinking seems to be that you are given a black box, about which you know nothing, but with inputs and outputs and your solver needs to be the fasted way to solve this black box.

    So it would be like taking a hammer to every problem and saying that "hitting it with a hammer only works sometimes".

  12. Does it apply to congress? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Congress is really slow and converging to the optimal law. Maybe this could help?

    1. Re:Does it apply to congress? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seems more like a random-walk, with every possible solution manifesting at one point of time or another. And getting stuck for a long time, preventing the optimum solution.

  13. Memory vs. speed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Algorithms can be fast, or use low amount of memory. Doesn't the bucketing used here require additional memory over other methods? In the end, just an optimization of speed, while requiring more memory?
    What use are the tables comparing different algorithms when only the computational complexity is given, but not the memory requirements?

  14. Nothing to do with smartphones... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This paper is about convex optimization, and says nothing about designing smartphones -- and smartphones are not designed by solving a convex optimization problem with variables representing battery life, speed, etc. So wtf is the summary talking about smartphones for? It's completely wrong.

    Smartphone design is not an application of this paper, at least not at all in the way the summary suggests. It's true that some aspects of circuit design are achieved using convex optimization, and this paper could potentially be useful there, but that is completely different.

  15. Re:Eliminating traffic problems by hackwrench · · Score: 1

    Replace all intersections with roundabouts. Problem solved. No, not really, somebody will still find a way to mess things up.

  16. in P by mcswell · · Score: 1

    If you read the press release from MIT, this discovery was about problems squarely inside P. Namely, they were (for a certain class of problems in P) able to reduce the complexity from N^^5 or N^^6 down to N^^2 or N^^3. So there would seem to be no implications for the P=NP problem.

  17. Not backing up their claims with real runtimes!! by Theovon · · Score: 0

    One of the tricks that people play when they claim to have parallelized something or improved computational complexity is that they don't back up their claims with any real runtimes. They provide a theoretical evaluation, but they haven't actually shown that anything is actually FASTER in a practical way. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. They haven't made a proper case for it. Maybe I missed it. I'm also not sure they actually coded it up and tried it. As a researcher who puts time and effort into actually implementing the ideas I develop, it really angers me when people get crap published where they are lazy or play with the statistics or use the wrong metrics.

  18. Re:Eliminating traffic problems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    intersections and roundabouts are solutions to multi-way traffic junctions. roundabouts work well up to certain criteria, usually demands as a factor of road capacity. After that, they can completely starve traffic due to imbalances in traffic direction, unlike intersections, which will provide forward progress.

    for those nitpickers, if the exit from a roundabout and an intersection are full, neither provides meaningful progress.

  19. Re:Eliminating traffic problems by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

    You know what actually works well? Cloverleafs. Expensive, though.

    Me I want to redesign *everything*.

    I'd like to build a town where dwellings and stores are up on pylons like mushroom heads; that allows a huge amount of ground to be devoted to nature as compared to dwellings on the ground. I want them separated from neighboring dwellings by at least 50 feet of open space.

    I want transport between/along the dwellings to be a dual purpose line where one half is a monorail with community cars, and one half is a walkway, and I want that up in the air with the dwellings, also on pylons. Nothing on the ground. No streetlights. Just daylight/IR cameras that send sidewalk activity to a central, secure, automated recording location in order to prevent hooligans from becoming a problem. The related records would be freed up for law enforcement only in the case of robbery or assault.

    The entire town would be a park. You want transport, you signal for a car, it'll come get you and switch as required to get where you want to go, including the garage outside the town limits where you store your vehicle(s), assuming you even need one (for travel elsewhere, you might want one.)

    No vehicles would be allowed on the ground. You can walk there any time. No hunting.

    As soon as I make my first billion...

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  20. Not of practical relevance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Assistant professor, computational mathematician and optimizer here. The paper is of theoretical significance because it reduced provable bounds on the runtime complexity of a certain class of algorithms for convex optimization.
    The catch is, no-one uses the algorithms in question in practice. There are significantly more powerful methods that are vastly more performant when applied in practice, but for which said bounds have not been (or even cannot be) proved.
    So the impact on computational practice will be very limited. No new codes, solvers, and no relevant problems will be solved any faster than before.
    tl;dr: Nothing to see here, move along.

  21. Wrong aim by gweihir · · Score: 1

    All these algorithms are exponential for optimal solutions. (Well, unless P=NP, but that looks more and more unlike all the time. And even if it was true, high-exponent polynomial is not really better in practice anyways.) Hence _nobody_ uses the algorithms for optimal solutions in practice. What is used are approximation algorithms that provide a good solution, and there the quality measure is not "speed", but speed vs. result quality.

    This may be nice theoretical research, but the practical impact is rather non-existent.

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  22. Re:Eliminating traffic problems by davester666 · · Score: 1

    You have it upside down. If all the 'stuff' is elevated, the ground winds up being dead because it doesn't get enough sun.

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