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Non-Binding Resolution: EU States Should Protect Snowden

The New York Times reports that the European Parliament has voted to adopt "a nonbinding but nonetheless forceful resolution" urging the EU's member nations to recognize Edward Snowden as a whistleblower, rather than aid in prosecuting him on behalf of the United States government. From the article: Whether to grant Mr. Snowden asylum remains a decision for the individual European governments, and thus far, none have done so. Still, the resolution was the strongest statement of support seen for Mr. Snowden from the European Parliament. At the same time, the close vote — 285 to 281 — suggested the extent to which some European lawmakers are wary of alienating the United States. ... The resolution calls on European Union members to "drop any criminal charges against Edward Snowden, grant him protection and consequently prevent extradition or rendition by third parties." Also at Wired, USA Today and many others; Snowden himself has tweeted happily about the news.

210 comments

  1. Must be public pressure in Europe. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Politicians never do something because it is the right thing to do. There must be a lot of pressure from the commoners motivating this.

    1. Re:Must be public pressure in Europe. by Ravaldy · · Score: 2

      That's not true. Politicians are quick to do the right thing if they have support to do it.

    2. Re:Must be public pressure in Europe. by Rei · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It's really hard to extradite from the EU anyway even for non-politically-connected crimes. It took 8 years even to get Abu Hamza, which was about as open and shut as possible (including convictions in the UK) for about as hateable of a figure as possible for serious of crimes during a period where there was a major push to prosecute said crimes. The ECHR in particular is a major refuge for people arguing political prosecution. The right in many countries like the UK hates them, as they make it hard to prosecute many types of crime and force them to guarantee all sorts of rights for prisoners (like assisted reproductive services for sex offenders and such). In the case of Abu Hamza, they ruled that a variety of conditions in US prisons are "torture" and he couldn't be extradited until the US promised to make all sorts of restrictions on how he would be housed. They also had to agree to not seek the death penalty, and nearly required the US to not seek life in prison either. And if the US would ever break any of their promises, the ECHR would impose a general ban on extradition to the US (as they've done with many other countries), as it's against EU law to extradite to countries who do not have a track record of upholding their pledges concerning prisoners (it was imposed in the aftermath of the Agiza/Alzery case)

      Now, this shouldn't be confused with moving people between EU states under the EAW process (surrender, not extradition), which is generally rather easy. EAWs bypass the executive branch entirely, and the automatic presumption is that the warrant is valid and should be enforced rather than the other way around.

      Honestly, what would work out best for everyone would be if the US agreed to plea bargain with Snowden. He seems interested in it, the US would still send their message that "you can't run from the law forever", etc.

      --
      "Oh, goodness. Look at my wrist, I have to go." "But what about your clothes?" "I don't love these."
    3. Re:Must be public pressure in Europe. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not true. Politicians are quick to do the right thing if they have support to do it.

      Politicians are quick to do the ANY thing that will get them VOTES! FTFY

    4. Re:Must be public pressure in Europe. by jonbryce · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      It is worth pointing out that Abu Hamza was found not guilty of his alleged crimes when it eventually did go to trial.

    5. Re:Must be public pressure in Europe. by ASDFnz · · Score: 1

      It's really hard to extradite from the EU anyway even for non-politically-connected crimes.

      A big part of this is what is coincided punishment under the two jurisdictions. The EU has a very strong rule against the death penalty so when extraditing people that may face the it in the US it is very easy to argue that extradition could lead to cruel and unusual punishment under the EU rules.

      The other issue is human rights, if there is any chance someone extradited might end up in Guantanamo Bay it once again makes a very easy case for the defendant.

    6. Re:Must be public pressure in Europe. by Major+Blud · · Score: 3, Informative

      This guy? Looks like he was found VERY guilty.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      --
      If you post as Anonymous Coward, don't expect a reply.
    7. Re:Must be public pressure in Europe. by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      If they were extradited to civilian law enforcement in the US, they wouldn't go to Gitmo, ever. That would be illegal under *US* law, let alone any other law.

      People in the EU may have a problem with the place, but it is specifically for holding illegal combatants captured in the field by the military who are not POWs under the Geneva Convention. It's not a gulag or a concentration camp for political prisoners.

      No one who is charged with an actual crime in the US gets sent to Guantanamo Bay. That's actually the point of the place. It's for prisoners captured by the US military in an operational area, frequently in battle. If the person is in EU custody and can be turned over to the US to answer charges, they weren't caught by the US military in an operational zone. They'd go to the FBI or US Marshals Service for custody and off to Federal holding cells in a civilian prison just like any other criminal.

    8. Re:Must be public pressure in Europe. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Is that why people where snatched of the streets in for example Italy and sent to Guantanamo? So Italy is now "in the field"?

    9. Re:Must be public pressure in Europe. by erikkemperman · · Score: 1

      but it [Gitmo] is specifically for holding illegal combatants captured in the field by the military who are not POWs under the Geneva Convention.

      You say "illegal combatants" as if it is an old, established concept in martial history -- as opposed to a fairly transparent sleight of hand to get away with gross violations of the GC. Same reason it is on Cuba, not in the US. Pesky laws and regulations.

      It's not a gulag or a concentration camp for political prisoners.

      So anything short of that is acceptable?

      --
      Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
    10. Re:Must be public pressure in Europe. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      liar.

    11. Re:Must be public pressure in Europe. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reason they are "quick" to do the right thing is......they have support! They don't do it because it's right. They do it because their supporters favor it.

      Only the naive consider politicians to have the moral standards of ordinary people.

    12. Re:Must be public pressure in Europe. by erikkemperman · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I hit submit by accident... Meant to add that, given what happened to Chelsey Manning, the prospect of being locked up on US soil rather than Guantanamo is hardly reassuring.

      --
      Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
    13. Re:Must be public pressure in Europe. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It is worth pointing out that Abu Hamza was found not guilty of his alleged crimes when it eventually did go to trial.

      Umm no, he was found guilty on all 11 counts in the USA and sentenced to life in prison.

    14. Re:Must be public pressure in Europe. by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      You say "illegal combatants" as if it is an old, established concept in martial history -- as opposed to a fairly transparent sleight of hand to get away with gross violations of the GC. Same reason it is on Cuba, not in the US. Pesky laws and regulations.

      And you're missing the point. I'm not justifying it's existence. I'm only stating what the entry conditions are. These are going to be people taken in intelligence or military operations. They're not people who are handed over in extradition proceedings. You can verify that yourself, if you doubt it. The lists of people in the camp are more or less public.

      No one in EU jurisdiction is an illegal combatant, and more to the point, no one from the EU would be extradited if the US was known to change the status of prisoners like that. The EU will make an agreement with the US, and whether the US wants to put them in a hole like Gitmo or not, it won't happen because the US doesn't serve it's interests that way. The administration isn't going to break all it's extradition agreements with the EU just for one person, no matter how nefarious.

      It's not a gulag or a concentration camp for political prisoners.

      So anything short of that is acceptable?

      I don't recall saying anything is "acceptable". I'm only telling you why no one in Snowden or Manning or Assange's positions will ever set foot in there, even if turned over to the US via extradition.

      People in the US judicial system don't get sent to Gitmo. For all that it might be illegal and certainly not a place I'd want to end up in, it's not a secret prison. We know who is in there and presumably why.

      In this discussion, Guantanamo Bay is a bogeyman, and that's all. I understand why people feel strongly about it, but unless the existing facts and process change, no one in judicial custody is going there.

    15. Re:Must be public pressure in Europe. by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      Irrelevant. We are talking about people who would be extradited. Presumably, the people you're talking about were taken "off the streets" in some sort of intelligence operation. That isn't going to happen to Snowden or anyone else of his notoriety if they're in judicial custody of an EU state.

    16. Re:Must be public pressure in Europe. by Carewolf · · Score: 1

      Politicians never do something because it is the right thing to do. There must be a lot of pressure from the commoners motivating this.

      No, it is the parliament. They do that sort of thing (right) all the time. It is basically a polical afterlife for politicians who were burned out at home, and have gone somewhere they have much less power, but what they have they can atleast use for good.

    17. Re:Must be public pressure in Europe. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only the naive consider politicians to have the moral standards of ordinary people.

      I disagree - politicians are representative of "ordinary people" and they have the same moral standards. Do you suppose that any "ordinary" person is in a political office will have higher moral standard on average? They won't. Not if they intend to be in office. It's basic human behavior.

      If a person when put in political office (i.e. stays in power as long as they have the votes) maintains higher moral standard than average - then the person is by definition "extra-ordinary".

    18. Re:Must be public pressure in Europe. by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      I would have preferred that everyone remained professional about the Manning case in the sense of how he was treated, but Manning is now in military prison and has even had transition assistance. It's hard time, but a lot of people consider those actions treasonous, and certainly they have caused problems for the US. It could have gone a lot worse.

    19. Re:Must be public pressure in Europe. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Well, obviously the nice picture you wanted to show Guantanamo in is not so nice when even Italy is an "operational area". So I guess the whole EU is an "operational area" too. Isn't US an "operational area" too? Looks like it is more about just "taking off the streets" instead of "arresting".

    20. Re:Must be public pressure in Europe. by KGIII · · Score: 1

      How the fuck is misinformation considered worth moderating as "informative?"

      C'mon now... The OP is blatantly lying. I've no idea why, but they are.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    21. Re:Must be public pressure in Europe. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      According to the GC the persons detained by the US military on an active field of armed conflict could be summarily executed. Persons engaged in military actions are required to clearly identify themselves on the battlefield using the insignia or uniform of a recognized state or territory. None of the prisoners taken to Cuba met the criteria to be deemed a legal combatant and subject to treatment spelled out in the GC. The US needs to take those remaining in custody and strap parachutes on them and throw them out of a plane directly over the area were the were taken prisoner.

    22. Re:Must be public pressure in Europe. by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I hit submit by accident... Meant to add that, given what happened to Chelsey Manning, the prospect of being locked up on US soil rather than Guantanamo is hardly reassuring.

      In the US the Military actually has it's own Court System, with it's own law-code.

      Snowden would be in the civilian system. His conviction is pretty much a slam-dunk. Revealing Classified Info to people who don't have clearance is illegal,and he did that shit. Since Congress has not seen fit to adda public interest defense, or exception, or really anything of value to a Federal whistle-blower, you claims that he had to do it to reveal NSA misconduct are simply irrelevant legally.

    23. Re:Must be public pressure in Europe. by ASDFnz · · Score: 1

      If they were extradited to civilian law enforcement in the US, they wouldn't go to Gitmo, ever.

      I realize that, I was just commenting broadly on the subject to try to explain why these things seem to be sticky in general.

    24. Re:Must be public pressure in Europe. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Revealing Classified Info to people who don't have clearance is illegal,and he did that shit.

      And I suspect many people here on Slashdot would have no problem with Snowden facing charges for what he did ... if the system also punished those whose illegal (and treasonous) actions he revealed.

    25. Re:Must be public pressure in Europe. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, all you have to do to get off the hook is classify your own crimes, and thus it's illegal to report you?

      Isn't that how things work in North Korea and similar places?

    26. Re: Must be public pressure in Europe. by theCzechGuy · · Score: 1

      Right, its neither gulag nor concentration camp. Lots of people made it out of them alive. Note that every major power in WW II had concentration camps (US used them for people of Japanese heritage) and many of them, including some in Third Reich, had better conditions than Gitmo. Look, you made the comparison.

    27. Re:Must be public pressure in Europe. by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 5, Insightful

      People in the EU may have a problem with the place, but it is specifically for holding illegal combatants captured in the field by the military who are not POWs under the Geneva Convention. It's not a gulag or a concentration camp for political prisoners.

      Uhm, that's exactly what it is, which is why people in the EU have problems with it. Kidnapping people from the soil of sovereign countries and then holding them without due process for indefinite time without trial, oversight by third parties (e.g. Red Cross), way to appeal the imprisonment or access to a lawyer on some remote military base is the hallmark of injustice. It couldn't possibly get worse -- well, it could, if you additionally hold some of them in cages and torture them with sleep deprivation and waterboarding.

      If you can't see the atrocity of this then I feel very, very sorry for you.

    28. Re:Must be public pressure in Europe. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In other words, the European human rights court is doing their job. You make it almost sound like that is something bad.

      Honestly, what would work out best for everyone would be if the US agreed to plea bargain with Snowden. He seems interested in it, the US would still send their message that "you can't run from the law forever", etc.

      It would work out best for everyone if the US gave Snowden the highest honours and prosectuted the people who committed the crimes he pubished about instead.

    29. Re:Must be public pressure in Europe. by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      It's really hard to extradite from the EU anyway even for non-politically-connected crimes.

      For politically connected non-crimes it's very, very easy.

      Take for example that teenager who profited from running a torrent site of some sorts. It's perhaps not illegal here: the CPS stated explicitly that they don't know if it's illegal and would have to actually take it to court to find out. And yet he was all bundled off and nearly sent to the US, despite no one being sure if his acts were criminal in the UK.

      Only thing that saved him is the public backlash was so huge this time, it actually put the extradition treaty at risk.

      But yeah the rule is pretty much, be the most evil of scum and you get the full protection of the law. Upset the corporate paymaster of someone in the US and you'll be off before you know, crime or no crime.

      Well, apparently old Tony is kinda rather upset that he's not been able to move into the elder statesman role he sees himself as. I'm glad that the memory of the public is not as short as it's sometimes made out to be.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    30. Re:Must be public pressure in Europe. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not just the EU, the Council of Europe.

      Even in Russia, which is hostile to the EU but a member of the Council of Europe - the death penalty is illegal.

      Suppose you can prove Putin and Obama both had somebody killed. Putin can _spend the rest of his life in jail_ for that crime. Obama says "Never mind I'm the US President" and writes himself a piece of paper that says it's not illegal when he does it, he's a free man.

      The whole _point_ of the United States was to consolidate this level of corruption. The powerful do whatever they want, the rest of you can love your "freedom" which doesn't include freedom not to be executed by those more powerful on a whim.

    31. Re:Must be public pressure in Europe. by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      There are legalities, and moralities. Snowden broke the law in a big way. He released classified information, and that's highly illegal for people with security clearances. If extradited, he'd be tried, convicted, and imprisoned in the normal course of things. That's what the legalities are.

      Lots of people, including me, think that Snowden broke the law in a good cause, and should not be held legally responsible. This means we think that he should get a pardon, not that he didn't break the law.

      Whether or not anyone from the NSA should be charged and tried is a separate matter, legally and morally. Regardless of what happens with the revelations, I'd like to see him pardoned (not that that's going to happen any time soon).

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    32. Re:Must be public pressure in Europe. by Agripa · · Score: 1

      This is the same EU that did this?
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      They have burned any trust they may have had. They will just cooperate secretly.

  2. Sovereignty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Breaking news: EU Parliament grudgingly acknowledges the remaining limited sovereignty of member states.

    1. Re:Sovereignty by jfdavis668 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The European Parliament is a next to useless organization. They should be more concerned with the flood of refugees into Europe than the fate of one idiot.

    2. Re:Sovereignty by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      >The European Parliament is a next to useless organization.

      The primary goal of the European Parliament is to create a political union that works to prevent a repeat of the march to war that led to world wars 1 and 2. It has worked well for a long time.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    3. Re:Sovereignty by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 1

      >> a political union that works to prevent a repeat of the march to war that led to world wars 1 and 2

      No, I think that was NATO. I thought the EU was about a common currency and set of laws that would allow it to function as a united bloc against powers like the US and China.

    4. Re:Sovereignty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you are mixing up the EU and the Eurozone.

    5. Re:Sovereignty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you're thinking of the United Nations.

    6. Re:Sovereignty by Xest · · Score: 3, Informative

      No he's right, it was a political union designed to bind Europe together to make another war unthinkable. NATO was designed to stop Russia (well, the USSR at the time) marching into Europe to undo all of that which is exactly as Russia is trying to do again now with it's invasion into Ukraine and it's funding of far right europhobic political groups like France's FN, the UK's UKIP, and Greece's Golden Dawn whose main policies are to pull their respective countries out of the EU, hence weakening the EU and opening the door further for Russian intrusion.

      Both were certainly primarily created to keep Europe from war, although NATO also protects the likes of Canada's northern borders and Alaska too of course.

    7. Re:Sovereignty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Read some history before you comment. Asshole.

    8. Re:Sovereignty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, I think that was NATO. (...)

      No, Techyimmigrant is correct.

    9. Re:Sovereignty by youngone · · Score: 2, Informative

      The primary goal of the European Parliament is to create a political union that works to prevent a repeat of the march to war that led to world wars 1 and 2. It has worked well for a long time.

      Europe was at war with itself from the collapse of the Roman Empire until 1945, with very few years of peace. When the most efficient way of killing people was to hit them with a sword, and the economy was largely agrarian, wars didn't really kill lot of people.

      With the rise of the modern state, and industrial revolutions, wars killed progressively more and more people, ( the 30 years war of 1618 to 1648 killed maybe 25% of the population of Germany for instance).

      Wars also became steadily more global, with the Napoleonic Wars for example fought everywhere Britain and France had interests. The French and the Germans were very wise setting up the European Union, in my view. It has succeeded in it's original aim of preventing the tanks from rolling.

    10. Re:Sovereignty by youngone · · Score: 1

      Seriously AC there's no need for that.

    11. Re:Sovereignty by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Can't please eurosceptics. The EU isn't strong enough to deal with the refugee crisis. The EU has too much power, always dictating to member states.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    12. Re:Sovereignty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Excellent point. Congratulations..

    13. Re:Sovereignty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wouldn't worry too much of what eurosceptics say, half of it is just reiterated bullshit propaganda from Russia that wants more independent pieces to munch at.

    14. Re:Sovereignty by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 2

      >> a political union that works to prevent a repeat of the march to war that led to world wars 1 and 2

      No, I think that was NATO. I thought the EU was about a common currency and set of laws that would allow it to function as a united bloc against powers like the US and China.

      EEC (1951) -> Schengen Agreement (1985) -> EU (1993 - Maastricht Treaty) --> EMU (Economic and Monetary Union - spread over the 1990s) .

      It's about all of the above. Preventing internal wars, defining Europe as a Western power, economic improvement through freedom of goods, currency and labour.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    15. Re:Sovereignty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The EU is a failed experiment that was doomed from the start. The clowns in Brussels treat it like a dictatorship, and the member states have just about had enough of being told what to do when the directives are so visibly not in their best interests.

      But hey, just keep blaming the boogeyman. You might distract a few low-IQ readers that way.

    16. Re:Sovereignty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, just to be asinine, the refugee crisis is a trans-national problem that is affecting the entire EU. Snowden, on the other hand, did not have any affect on the EU as a whole, and should be dealt with or ignored by the member states. Therefore, the EU makes a bullshit PR stunt about Snowden and fiddles while Rome is invaded.

      yes, I'm assuming that Snowden didn't sell a whole hell of a lot more to the Russians as the leftists claim.

    17. Re:Sovereignty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NATO is nothing without the US. One of the main goals of the EU, besides creating a unified currency, was creating an integrated EU military force to end the reliance on NATO. However, once the EU calculated the cost of building a united military force they decided to continue letting the US pay the lions share of the cost. Most NATO members do little more than hold the coats of the US military when military force is required. The only exception would be England. And the US and Canada may be members of NATO but they certainly don't rely on NATO for protection. The US and Canada rely on NORAD to protect their borders.

    18. Re: Sovereignty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only thing that prevented internal war in Europe was that anyone trying to do it would have found itself squashed by either the US or the USSR, and nobody had the money to try it anyway. Now, outside Europe it's another matter: Algeria, Vietnam... But as long as fair-skinned euro-Aryans are not killed by the hundreds, nobody cares.

    19. Re: Sovereignty by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      You sound insecure.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    20. Re:Sovereignty by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      The Euroskeptics also, astonishingly, whined horribly when the EU decided to regulate oven gloves. Apparently pre-regs the oven golves were wildly unsafe and to be sold as such had to only be rated up to something like 160 or 180C (well below the 250C which is the lowest maximum temperature found in any domestic oven).

      They were arguing vociferously that essentially shops ought to be able to sell unfit, unsafe goods. I, personally had no idea that oven gloves had such a pathetically low rating. The reasoning for the complaint seemed to be based on the axiom that Europe is bad, ergo everything they do is bad.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    21. Re:Sovereignty by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      The worst one was the "straight bananas" debacle. Howls of rage at the EU forcing us to adopt draconian rules on the size and shape of our fruit, costing British business millions of pounds and forcing up prices for everyone. Front page headlines in major newspapers, hours of TV coverage in an age where there were only four channels.

      What they failed to notice is that the EU had actually just adopted the existing UK rules. Nothing at all changed for us, except that it became a little easier for UK businesses to export bananas to the EU because the UK standards they were working to were now Europe wide.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    22. Re:Sovereignty by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 1

      You're right that NATO is nothing without the US (the US made sure about that for obvious reasons), but the rest of your post is based on a common misconception. You confuse NATO with the various short-term alliances the US has formed for military interventions such as invading other countries, but the key clause of the NATO treaty, Article 5, has only been invoked once during its history, namely in response to 9/11. Perhaps you had ISAF as another larger alliance in mind, to which NATO has lent some of its C&C structure.

      The military strength of NATO has never really been tested on a large scale so far, as the one and only invocation of Article 5 was not a full-fledged mobilisation. (It was mostly about a naval mission to intercept and check ships in the Mediterranean Sea and more or less a symbolic act of the member states to support the US after 9/11.)

    23. Re:Sovereignty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That "idiot" has done more to expose corruption, and government overreach, and has helped change policy in a way you will never do in your entire life.

    24. Re: Sovereignty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You sound mongoloid. What do windows taste like?

    25. Re: Sovereignty by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      Mongolia is a long way away.

      They taste like blue screens of death.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
  3. This seems contradictory by JustNiz · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This seems entirely contradictory to their stance on Assange.
    I wonder why.

    1. Re:This seems contradictory by bfpierce · · Score: 2

      Snowden isn't accused of a sex crime as Assange is, and that ultimately is the only difference really that I can see. Assange isn't under thread of extradition from the 'espionage', it's that whole other thing.

    2. Re:This seems contradictory by Lisias · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This seems entirely contradictory to their stance on Assange.
      I wonder why.

      It's a wild guess, but perhaps Snowden being a whistle blower that helped (indirectly) the EU in their privacy concernings, in contrast with Assange, that is a whistle blower that fsckd up every single Country in the World, can be a reason.

      --
      Lisias@Earth.SolarSystem.OrionArm.MilkyWay.Local.Virgo.Universe.org
    3. Re:This seems contradictory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Actually, if i'm reading this correctly Assange is still holed up in the Ecuadorian Embassy which is South American soil so Europe would have nothing to say about that. My speculation would be that the EU does not wish to threaten its position in 5 Eyes by showing a favorable bias towards someone the United State Government wishes to gets its hands on.

    4. Re:This seems contradictory by Solandri · · Score: 3, Informative

      Snowden has narrowed down his information releases to one specific topic - secret government monitoring of civilian communications channels. In both the U.S. and EU, Snowden is probably right and this was illegal on the part of the government. Assange (and Manning) took an indiscriminate approach and just released everything they could get their hands on, legal or illegal, right or wrong. No government with secrets of their own is going to condone or encourage the latter.

      IOW, Snowden was blowing the whistle to try to stop the train to save it. Assange and Manning were trying to derail the train.

    5. Re:This seems contradictory by Voyaging_Mind · · Score: 0

      Not really contradictory. If i'm reading correctly Assange is still holed up in the Ecuadorian Embassy which is South American soil, Europe would have no say about him being there. My speculation would be that the EU does not wish to threaten its position within 5 Eyes by taking a stance favorable towards someone (Snowden) the United States Government wishes to get its hands on.

    6. Re:This seems contradictory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly, and it wouldn't actually matter in Assange's case since politicians are forbidden by law to make such decisions in Sweden.

    7. Re:This seems contradictory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      People actually believe the rape accusations which coincidentally happened right after he embarrassed the US military by publishing the truth?

    8. Re:This seems contradictory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Exactly, and it wouldn't actually matter in Assange's case since politicians are forbidden by law to make such decisions in Sweden.

      I disagree.

      It shouldn't matter since politicians aren't supposed to make decisions on individual cases.
      That didn't prevent politicians form interfering in the Pirate Bay case.

      So since the law isn't applied it is irrelevant.

    9. Re:This seems contradictory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Everyone knows the Assange sex crime accusation is bogus - even the 'victims' say so.

    10. Re:This seems contradictory by fredrated · · Score: 2

      What train, the train of surveillance? That train needs to be derailed.

    11. Re:This seems contradictory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Only those intelligence shills who come to places like slashdot to perpetuate the misinformation and stop people from listening to people like... the 'victims'.. who say this is all a setup. And the people who are information disabled...

    12. Re:This seems contradictory by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      Why not? He's well known to be an asshole on a personal level. Just because he's a "publisher of the truth" doesn't make him incapable of "rape". Especially under Sweden's rather low bar for calling things "rape".

      Did he do it? No idea. That's what him going back to have a trial would be all about.

      What I do know is that he's hiding from charges in an embassy because he's concerned that his being charged with rape means he's going to be turned over to the US, which honestly could have happened at any point when he was in Sweden, if they'd really wanted to.

      It is incredibly unlikely that Sweden would turn him over to the US.

    13. Re:This seems contradictory by SvnLyrBrto · · Score: 1

      None of that should matter for Assange though. Manning, sure... To get the intel job, she would have had to get a security clearance; which includes a secrecy oath and informed agreement to the non-disclosure paperwork. That's in addition to the oath of service that goes along with joining the armed forces in the first place. On top of all that, Manning is a US citizen and was inside the country when she leaked the docs. Whether you agree with the release or not, there's a pretty clear rationale for the criminality of that release. And if you discount the whistleblower argument, the same applies to Snowden. Personally, I think both Manning and Snowden should be protected as whistleblowers.

      Assange? Not so much. Literally NONE of the above applies to him. He's neither citizen nor resident. He was not in the US when he released the info. And he has (to my knowledge) never had a security clearance or taken a secrecy oath or signed a NDA with the US government. He owes the United States absolutely no allegiance, loyalty, or duty whatsoever. You may as well claim that I am obligated to obey the laws and keep the secrets of Cuba, Zimbabwe, or Belgium.

      If anything, the anti-Assange witch-hunt is worse than the anti Snowden one. And I think it sets a very dangerous precedent to let nations go fishing for people who annoy them from outside their borders. And while people like Assange and Kim Dotcom may, themselves, be douchebags; I think it's more important to look past that at the bigger picture. A nations's laws should end at its borders. Period. Full stop. If it's a crime in Australia for one of their citizens to release the secrets of other countries, or a crime under New Zealand law for a resident to violate a foreign copyright, fine; then Australia or New Zealand should do the arresting and prosecuting. But the US should be told to go pound sand.

      --
      Imagine all the people...
    14. Re:This seems contradictory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This seems entirely contradictory to their stance on Assange.
      I wonder why.

      Don't be obtuse. Assange is accused of having committed a crime the EU.

    15. Re: This seems contradictory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Friend, it doesn't matter if *Sweden* won't turn him over to the Americans if *the British* do so the second he leaves the embassy to leave for Sweden.

    16. Re:This seems contradictory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Embassies are NOT foreign soil.

    17. Re:This seems contradictory by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      helped (indirectly) the EU in their privacy concernings

      Oh horsepoo. The EU were a willing party in the campaign to spy on citizens of the world. They are only a bit pissed when it turned out senior government figures were being spied on too.

    18. Re:This seems contradictory by Carewolf · · Score: 1

      This seems entirely contradictory to their stance on Assange.
      I wonder why.

      It's a wild guess, but perhaps Snowden being a whistle blower that helped (indirectly) the EU in their privacy concernings, in contrast with Assange, that is a whistle blower that fsckd up every single Country in the World, can be a reason.

      Assange is offically not wanted by the US, and he already have the right to be in EU. Snowden needs an Asylum to protect him from being extradicted, and to be allowed to stay in EU in the first place.

    19. Re: This seems contradictory by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      The British will certainly arrest him for breaking his bail. The British, however, would have to get an extradition request from the US, and for that the US would have to file charges. None of that has happened.

      And then the British would have to hand him over to the US, instead of handing him over to Sweden, who asked first.

      Sure, the US government could get their hands on him if they tried hard enough. One could certainly argue that they have a case for it under law. What is very unlikely is that he will be turned over to the US unless the situation changes substantially. And I don't think an Obama administration would pull a quick move just to get him. For a liberal administration like the current one, having to try and get a conviction on someone like Assange is a no-win situation for them. Better that he stays safely in a place where they can shrug their shoulders and say that he's inaccessible to them.

      However, Assange had better think of a better idea before a new administration is in place in the US. If Clinton ends up as president, which is looking like will happen, or worse, a Republican, Assange may well have the US now camping out waiting for their chance to get him. I am almost 100% certain that the Obama administration will be happy to let him slip away, but Clinton could be maneuvered into not wanting to look weak, and some of the Republicans want to string him up.

    20. Re: This seems contradictory by easyTree · · Score: 1

      Just for discussion... why should a country's laws stop at its borders?

    21. Re:This seems contradictory by jc42 · · Score: 1

      Snowden isn't accused of a sex crime as Assange is, and that ultimately is the only difference really that I can see. ...

      Wonder why not? You'd think it'd be just as easy to find (and fund) a few women to accuse Snowden of sexual assault. It's not like US prosecutors have never used such tactics in the past.

      One conjecture is that the US government keeps thinking it can get an assassin in to take him out, but that's turning out to be a bit trickier in Russia than it was in Pakistan or a few other countries we might list. Maybe the judicious thing would be to abandon that approach, and revert to the tried-and-true sex accusations. Of course, given their history, the Russian leaders might just lol at such an approach.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    22. Re:This seems contradictory by WeeBit · · Score: 1

      Swedish officials failed to question Assange before the expiration dates, they could not formally file charges against him on three of the charges. Those charges were dropped the only crime left is the rape and that will expire in 2020. Sweden would extradite him to the United States where he could be charged over WikiLeaks' 2011 publication. I don't believe that man will ever leave the Ecuadorean Embassy in London.

    23. Re: This seems contradictory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just for discussion... why should a country's laws stop at its borders?

      Imperialism is stupid just like this question.

    24. Re: This seems contradictory by easyTree · · Score: 1

      It's just as arbitrary as the idea that the should hold sway within the borders.

    25. Re: This seems contradictory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because I am the emperor of the micro-nation of Insanistan, and I have declared a law that all non-citizens of my country are required to pay me a tribute of US$1 every month.

      More realistically, Saudi Arabia doesn't allow women to drive cars. I think you'd have a hard time convincing other countries to enforce that law, even if it only applied to Saudi citizens living abroad.

      You could argue that this would provide an incentive to renounce citizenship, but that's not practical for many reasons.

    26. Re:This seems contradictory by Spinalcold · · Score: 1

      As well they should! Whether you think any of them are doing good deeds or not, they are using a drastically different method of letting the public know about this stuff. Wikileaks will publish anything online, without redacted lines, Snowden goes through one journalist and it is that person that decides what should be published and what should be kept secret. Also, since he is going through a journalist the information is still being parsed today. Even if the government doesn't think Snowden is a whistleblower, he is doing MORE than his part in making sure he is doing this as responsibly as possible.

    27. Re:This seems contradictory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      security clearance; which includes a secrecy oath and informed agreement to the non-disclosure paperwork. That's in addition to the oath of service that goes along with joining the armed forces in the first place.

      An oath to protect WRONGDOING should never be valid.

    28. Re:This seems contradictory by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      There is at least one other difference: Snowden didn't commit his alleged crime inside a member country (Asange's alleged sex crime happened in Switzerland). Moreover Snowden's revelations didn't seriously harm or indict any member governments (except the UK though to a much lesser degree than the US) while Asange has targetted all governments and embarrassed the EU and several member countries more than once.

      I would like to believe the former aspect is the decider here, but the cynic in me suspects the latter may play a bigger role. Embarrassing the US (and gaining member countries political capital to spend in intelligence negotiations that way) is valuable to them, while embarrassing member countries in the same way is not.

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    29. Re: This seems contradictory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There isn't a minimum age for marriage in Qatar, want me to go on?

    30. Re: This seems contradictory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because a country stops at its borders.

    31. Re:This seems contradictory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That Assange charge is so obviously bullshit that I'm amazed any judge would issue a warrant. Seriously the guy is a surveillance expert. He knew he was being watched, and then from otut of nowhere he decides to go rape two women? Sounds plausible... if you're a fucking moron...

    32. Re:This seems contradictory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hi is a narcissistic moron.

    33. Re:This seems contradictory by SvnLyrBrto · · Score: 1

      I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. My point was that there is a valid rationale for Manning to be subject to US law; where that is not true in the case of Assange. The fact that US law has inadequate protections for whistleblowers who expose wrongdoing by their employers is a separate issue.

      --
      Imagine all the people...
    34. Re: This seems contradictory by matfud · · Score: 1

      Yes there is. 18 for boys, 16 for girls

    35. Re:This seems contradictory by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I've seen no evidence that Sweden would send him to the US under any circumstances. I've seen a lot of unsupported claims.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    36. Re: This seems contradictory by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      For the US to have a case under law, they'd have to find something Assange allegedly did that violated US law seriously enough. Publishing secrets is not illegal in the US, revealing them is, and Manning is already convicted.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    37. Re:This seems contradictory by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I haven't seen an anti-Assange witch-hunt yet. I've seen completely unsubstantiated claims of one. My personal read on this is that Assange doesn't want to go back to Sweden and face the rape charge, and is trying to save face by making up an international conspiracy.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    38. Re:This seems contradictory by WeeBit · · Score: 1

      True but Sweden would be under a lot of pressure from the US who knows what the US will be saying behind closed doors to Sweden. There are always deals to be made between countries. Someone in the US has it in for the man and I don't see them ever letting up. Check comments around the web. So many out there that can't stand Assange, or Snowden.

    39. Re:This seems contradictory by Lisias · · Score: 1

      Oh horsepoo.

      Lisias. Nice to meet you. :-)

      The EU were a willing party in the campaign to spy on citizens of the world. They are only a bit pissed when it turned out senior government figures were being spied on too.

      Exact. They want to spy citizens of the world, they don't want the world spying THEIR citizens.

      Being the reason I stated " *their* privacy concernings", not mine of yours. ;-)

      --
      Lisias@Earth.SolarSystem.OrionArm.MilkyWay.Local.Virgo.Universe.org
    40. Re:This seems contradictory by Lisias · · Score: 1

      Assange is offically not wanted by the US, and he already have the right to be in EU. Snowden needs an Asylum to protect him from being extradicted, and to be allowed to stay in EU in the first place.

      Humm... Do you realize that Assange is the one in confinement inside the Ecuador's Embassy IN LONDON in order to avoid extradition, don't you?

      --
      Lisias@Earth.SolarSystem.OrionArm.MilkyWay.Local.Virgo.Universe.org
    41. Re:This seems contradictory by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Who in the US, other than some grandstanding politicians, has it in for Assange? Specifically, who that would have the power or influence to try to get him here? Random comments on the web mean nothing in international relations. To repeat, I've seen no evidence that the US would try to get hands on Assange.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    42. Re: This seems contradictory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, I'm sorry; I should have said "with parental consent". That makes everything https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-ok

      http://www.youthpolicy.org/fac...

  4. Good by Avarist · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Happy to see common sense, perhaps struggling, but still win. It's long overdue for Europe to stand up to the crumbling US.

    --
    In Capitalist US, the commerce controls the Government.
  5. Meaningless Gesture by EmagGeek · · Score: 2

    Unless those member states are willing to violate their extradition treaties with the United States, the resolution is more or less meaningless.

    1. Re:Meaningless Gesture by Halo1 · · Score: 2

      Unless those member states

      This is not a resolution by the member states. The member states are represented at the EU level by the EU Council of Ministers. The European Parliament is the (only) directly elected part of the EU structure, which often is at odds with the Council of Ministers (where the ministers often think more of national interests than of EU interests) and the Commission (which tends to do the opposite, or is too much steered by bureaucrats).

      are willing to violate their extradition treaties with the United States, the resolution is more or less meaningless.

      You piqued my interest, so I looked up the extradition treaty between the US and Belgium. It provides for exclusions for "political offences". If there would be sufficient political will, Snowden's offence could definitely be argued to constitute a political offence. There's also an exception possible if the requested state determines that the request is politically motivated.

      So, while I doubt there would be sufficient political courage/will on behalf of the Belgian government to stand up to the US government in this case, there would not be any technical/legal problem as far as the extradition treaty is concerned (in my layman opinion).

      --
      Donate free food here
    2. Re:Meaningless Gesture by Xest · · Score: 4, Informative

      Not one extradition treaty in an EU member state overrules the European Convention on Human Rights which all EU member states are signatories to and members of.

      The lack of the US' ability to guarantee Snowden will be granted a fair trial, means that any extradition treaty will be irrelevant in the face of a European Court of Human Rights challenge using the European Convention on Human Rights and it's implementations.

      This is precisely why the convention and court exist - to prevent any member state treating someone unfairly in violation of their fundamental rights by acting as a higher power that can determine if a member government is treating people within it's borders fairly or not. It's a fine example of the importance of it all, it's one entity that can tell governments it doesn't give a shit how much they wish to kowtow to the US, fundamental human rights come first.

      Of course a nation state could break protocol and ignore an ECHR ruling, but then it also doesn't get to dictate to places like China, Russia, and so forth about human rights anymore, because it would then be hypocritical and meaningless to do so.

    3. Re:Meaningless Gesture by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      The lack of the US' ability to guarantee Snowden will be granted a fair trial

      What makes you think he'd not get a fair trial in the US?

      It isn't like we take US citizens, even on the past with WORSE spy cases, and don't give them a trial with counsel, etc. While I'd not advise Snowden to come back to the US (he'd get a trial, but it is pretty open and shut IMHO that he broke the law)...I would say he would get a fair trial, it isn't like he's gonna be extradited and "disappeared"....

      I'm cynical but not THAT cynical.

      The way some of you people on /. talk you'd think it was a regular occurrence that people disappear off the streets, that the govt commonly removes citizens at will never to be seen again.

      Seriously, you have more a chance dying in an auto accident than the govt ending your life or freedom (and I'm HIGHLY suspect of the govt)....but I don't think he'd not get as fair a trial as possible.

      We've had much worse spies get trials in the US in the past, no reason Snowden wouldn't get the same.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    4. Re:Meaningless Gesture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps based on all the members of congress etc that went public and argued that Snowden should be killed by a drone attack?

    5. Re:Meaningless Gesture by SvnLyrBrto · · Score: 2

      In the past, we've also given full trials and due process to criminals much worse than anyone we're holding in Guantanamo Bay. Granted Nuremberg was an international thing, not just a US procedure. But still, we had open trials, not a indefinite detention in an extraterritorial prison camp.

      Sadly, we've fallen from what we were before 9/11. And not only do we maintain that gulag in Cuba, we also have a network of black sites in eastern Europe and Asia where we shuffle people off to be tortured and murdered by the CIA; or, to put it politely, subject people to "extraordinary rendition".

      --
      Imagine all the people...
    6. Re:Meaningless Gesture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The lack of the US' ability to guarantee Snowden will be granted a fair trial

      It is impossible to "guarantee" with 100% certainty anything. Therefore, no one can ever be extradited to any nation for any reason.

      See how stupid that sounds? Instead, try this one on for size: The US has one of the best records for fair and public trials of any nation in the history of the planet. For a bunch of anti-US bigots to try to pretend that Europe has a better record than the US is utterly laughable, and ignores so much history to the contrary that anyone with even a half of an education should be shaking their head.

      If Snowden were to ever return to the US, he would face a very public trial. He would have some of the best lawyers on the planet defending him. The judge would be very scrupulous. All this is without a doubt - because with that much publicity, no one would dare risk misbehaving.

    7. Re:Meaningless Gesture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nuremburg was not "fair trials" in any sense of the word. The victors wanted their blood, but wanted to feel good about getting it, that's all.
      If you think executing people for crimes that didn't exist before the trial is "fair", then you should think the US is downright heavenly.

    8. Re:Meaningless Gesture by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 2

      > What makes you think he'd not get a fair trial in the US?

      Given the extraordinary nature and extent of the documents, the trial would not possibly be open, Judge and jury (if there was one) and defense attorneys would operate under extraordinary limitations of access to witnesses and documents that would establish justification for his whistle blowing, and various intelligence agencies would likely operate extra-legally to insure his conviction or even his early murder.

    9. Re: Meaningless Gesture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's not pretend that this is about one government's debating prowess outclassing the other's.

    10. Re: Meaningless Gesture by easyTree · · Score: 1

      So, as long as the government captures less than 92 people per day on average, that comparison holds - hardly an indicator that the US is a safe place to have views that weren't issued by the government.

    11. Re: Meaningless Gesture by easyTree · · Score: 1

      The US has one of the best records for fair and public trials of any nation in the history of the planet.

      If this statistic weren't fabricated or if it were possible to compare fairness between even a single pair of trials, let alone somehow compare fairness in aggregate - it would be a shame that ninety percent of defendants 'choose to' please guilty rather than go to trial - so afraid are they of a fair trial.

    12. Re:Meaningless Gesture by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      Not one extradition treaty in an EU member state overrules the European Convention on Human Rights which all EU member states are signatories to and members of.

      And how is the European Convention on Human Rights related to a non-binding resolution passed by a body which does not have the legal authority to make a binding resolution in the first place?

      The lack of the US' ability to guarantee Snowden will be granted a fair trial, means that any extradition treaty will be irrelevant in the face of a European Court of Human Rights challenge using the European Convention on Human Rights and it's implementations.

      He's accused of leaking classified information. He did it. He's admitted as much in several public interviews. There is no leaker's defense in the US.

      The absolute last person in the world who wants a fair trial is Ed Snowden, because a fair trial results in a conviction. The absolute last people in the world who want to unfairly try Ed Snowden are the US Government, because the only way for them to lose a case like this is unfairly try it.

      When you're on international TV saying "I leaked these classified documents for the following reasons..." there just isn't much wiggle room regarding the Questions of Fact asked at a trial: 1) did Snowden leak those documents?, and 2) were they Classified?

      If his so-called friends in the US had any brains at all they'd be calling for Louie Gohmert to introduce a bill forcing tyrant Obama to allow public interest defenses in cases like Ed Snowden's. That could actually get through Congress, and become enough of an issue that the next president would sign the damn thing.

      But that would involve going through Congress, which is apparently verbotten until they've failed every possible way they can in Court.

      This is precisely why the convention and court exist - to prevent any member state treating someone unfairly in violation of their fundamental rights by acting as a higher power that can determine if a member government is treating people within it's borders fairly or not. It's a fine example of the importance of it all, it's one entity that can tell governments it doesn't give a shit how much they wish to kowtow to the US, fundamental human rights come first.

      Of course a nation state could break protocol and ignore an ECHR ruling, but then it also doesn't get to dictate to places like China, Russia, and so forth about human rights anymore, because it would then be hypocritical and meaningless to do so.

      And again, this isn't the ECHR that's ruled. I doubt it could rule, seeing as he's not in Europe. It probably needs him to be there, and a US request for extradition,l before it can consider the issues.

    13. Re:Meaningless Gesture by NicBenjamin · · Score: 2

      And how would that be authorized by the Constitution?

      Seriously, this is a fucking simple trial. This is what happens:

      1) The Prosecutor reads the statute, which bans leaking of Classified info.
      2) The Prosecutor shows a document, any document, from the stash that Snowden leaked.
      3) The Prosecutor cues up a video of him explaining why he leaked it.
      4) The defense does something, probably involving blaming Karpeles, because it is literally illegal for them to mention to the Jury that Snowden thought the leak was in the public interest. Any Juror likely to know that the leaks were in the publci interest, exposed PRIMS, etc. would have been banned by the Judge for knowing too much about the case pre-trial.
      5) The Jury convicts because it is extremely unreasonable to conclude that Ed Snowden did not leak the documents.

      There's no need for secrecy, special assassination teams, or anything special.

    14. Re:Meaningless Gesture by Kkloe · · Score: 1

      Actually the fair trail has nothing to do with it as the EU would trust the USA the trail would be fair, the problem is as USA have death penalty, yes it is state wise and not all executions are even carried out, but that as there is a minute chance he could be sentenced to death then that will stop a extradition.

    15. Re:Meaningless Gesture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The absolute last person in the world who wants a fair trial is Ed Snowden, because a fair trial results in a conviction.

      A fair trial under US precedence would be a very favorable plea bargain for his help in convicting the NSA and the politicians who authorized the constitutional breaches.

      An unfair trial would be one that puts the "royalty" above the law, and convicts the people reporting the crimes.

    16. Re:Meaningless Gesture by Xest · · Score: 1

      There are a number of issues with the US justice system that act as barriers for extradition and that a number of requested extraditions to the US have been denied on. The two issues are:

      - The US has a terrible modern track record on justice relating to national security cases both because of Guantanamo bay, and the way other whistleblowers such as Manning were treated. Typically this sort of thing can be dealt with with legal guarantees to the extraditing nation, but I believe the US has reneged on some of these agreements in the past, especially regarding Guantanamo, and so this means such legal guarantees from the US about treatment of prisoners no longer hold much weight.

      - The US prison system is fundamentally broken, both in terms of failing to rehabilitate, general treatment in jail (i.e. high rates of assault including sexual assault) and in terms of an extraordinarily high incarceration rate.

      I agree with you though, I'm not suggesting Snowden would be disappeared, but the standards required to extradite someone like this where there is a high risk of political prejudice impacting things just aren't being well met by the US.

      If Snowden was extradited now, but one of the Republican wing nuts rather than a moderate got the presidency next year like Trump then do you really think Snowden would be completely free from the risk of not getting a fair trial? Do you believe that someone like Trump wouldn't try and get him in front of a military court when Trump has even suggested Snowden should be killed?

      Now I don't think Snowden's life would necessarily be at risk, but I could quite imagine him being given a trial in front of a kangaroo court, especially if someone like Trump were to win the presidency, and that's the sort of thing that the ECHR has to consider - not just the situation now, but what the risks are if the situation changes because of change of leader, and sadly, right now, Trump is not the most likely candidate, but certainly not completely implausible either.

    17. Re:Meaningless Gesture by Xest · · Score: 1

      "And how is the European Convention on Human Rights related to a non-binding resolution passed by a body which does not have the legal authority to make a binding resolution in the first place?"

      I'm not sure you know how such conventions work. European conventions are imposed on member states as things that must be implemented. Each member state has a legal implementation that is binding, and that can be ruled upon by the European Court of Human Rights (they can also rule whether the implementation meets the standards of the legally bound to implement convention).

      "He's accused of leaking classified information. He did it. He's admitted as much in several public interviews. There is no leaker's defense in the US."

      None of which has any relevance as to whether he'd get a fair trial. I'm not sure you really get how this whole justice thing works - hint: judgements are not decided upon what did or didn't happen in the spotlight of the media, only what happens in the court room.

      "The absolute last person in the world who wants a fair trial is Ed Snowden, because a fair trial results in a conviction. The absolute last people in the world who want to unfairly try Ed Snowden are the US Government, because the only way for them to lose a case like this is unfairly try it."

      Yep, and that's why Guantanamo detainees were treated so fairly over the yea... oh wait, no, they weren't. It's a bit of a stretch to pretend the US circa 1971 is the same as the UK circa 2015. The last 15 years has provide a plethora of evidence that the quality of the US justice system has seen a profound slide away from fairness.

      "And again, this isn't the ECHR that's ruled. I doubt it could rule, seeing as he's not in Europe. It probably needs him to be there, and a US request for extradition,l before it can consider the issues."

      I know people on Slashdot don't read the article, but you could at least read the summary and follow the thread, where we're speculating about how well protected he'd be if he moved to a European nation which was basically the entire point of my post.

    18. Re:Meaningless Gesture by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      >What makes you think he'd not get a fair trial in the US?

      The fact that there is no public-interest defense for federal whistle blowers (despite the fact that the need for one is a blatantly obvious self-evident truth) is enough to make it absolutely impossible to *give* him a fair trial no matter how good the intentions of the government or even the judge may be.

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    19. Re:Meaningless Gesture by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      The fact that it happened on an international level does rather mitigate that factor.
      There is however rather more to it than that. Firstly - the death penalty was by no means assured and several of the Nazi's charged got away with lesser punishments notably Rudolph Hess.
      Albert Speer only got 20 years (you can get that for robbing a bank) because of the remorse he showed (and probably a bit of a kickback because his testimony helped secure the cases against most of the other accused). He got to live quite a long life after prison, wrote some bestsellers and basically lived a celebrity life as "the Nazi who said sorry" until he died in 1981.

      The biggest thing worth noting though is that not a single one of the 21 accused at Nuremberg raised your complaint in their defenses. There were the occasional grumbling about jurisdiction, but nobody tried to say they couldn't be tried for what they did as these things were legal at the time they were done (and definitely legal in the country they were done in).

      Instead virtually all of them based their defense on trying to deny it ever happened. Goehring repeatedly claimed that every one of the orders, memos and laws cited as evidence that the holocaust was planned under orders from the upper echelons were plans for "emigration not extermination".

      I would agree that trying somebody for something which wasn't a crime when done, is not something a free government gets to do. Trying somebody for something he did in a country where it is legal to do it is also not something that a free government should be allowed to do.
      But trying members of a government, for their actions while in a position of authority - by a coalition of other governments is a different matter and a lot of the presumptions you raise are less applicable there.
      You must remember that free nations hugely hamstring their prosecutors in trials, all to balance the scales between a powerful state and a weak individual to ensure a fair outcome.
      When the government however is the defendant, that imbalance no longer exists to the same degree and so a fair trial doesn't require the same level of hamstringing.

      Also note that the jurisdictional issue would apply to the Hague in the same way if it was taken to apply here.
      The free world decided, as a direct consequence of the holocaust, that governments and the leaders within them are held to a higher standard than their citizens and can be tried for crimes where citizens could not.I don't think that is unfair.
      When you accept a position of power, you accept the risks that come with it. Which is one reason I am so strongly in favor of ending slap-on-the-wrist fines for corporate crimes. Punish the CEO as if he had personally done the deed. If the company dumped toxins in some town's water - charge the CEO with 5000 counts of murder and attempted murder and have him serve 5000 concurrent life sentences. "I didn't know" should not be a defense either.
      He accepted the massive remuneration and perks of CEO - he must accept responsibility for the legality of the actions of the entire company. It's his JOB to have known. If he goes to prison regardless, then suddenly he is incentivized to make damn sure he knows what's happening and stop evil things before they happen.

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    20. Re:Meaningless Gesture by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Nuremburg was a fair trial in that the offenses were laid out, the accused had legal counsel, and the results of the trial were not foregone conclusions. Some people wanted to just shoot all the defendants.

      The four counts were waging aggressive war (against Kellogg-Briand), war crimes (against various Hague and Geneva conventions), crimes against humanity (I don't know what the legal basis for this was offhand, but I think we can agree that genocide is a crime), and conspiracy to do those things.

      Three of the defendants were found not guilty on all counts. The sentences for the others varied from ten years' imprisonment to death.

      This is not what happens in a kangaroo court.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    21. Re:Meaningless Gesture by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Correction: Goering claimed that starting an aggressive war was legal, despite the Kellogg-Briand pact.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    22. Re:Meaningless Gesture by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      In other words, you are complaining about the laws, not the process. Snowden would get a fair trial, and would undoubtedly be convicted. I know of no whistle-blower protections that apply to people who reveal secrets about international relations; it's usually for people raising concerns in the system. I think he should be pardoned, myself. I don't want to see laws distorted to acquit him, just because he's an exceptional case.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    23. Re:Meaningless Gesture by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      "And how is the European Convention on Human Rights related to a non-binding resolution passed by a body which does not have the legal authority to make a binding resolution in the first place?"

      I'm not sure you know how such conventions work. European conventions are imposed on member states as things that must be implemented. Each member state has a legal implementation that is binding, and that can be ruled upon by the European Court of Human Rights (they can also rule whether the implementation meets the standards of the legally bound to implement convention).

      This thread is not about a Convention.

      It is about a non-binding resolution passed by a Legislative body which would not have the authority to pass a binding resolution.

      If you want to change the subject to the ECHR you can do that, but you'll have to explain why the ECHR would apply.

      "He's accused of leaking classified information. He did it. He's admitted as much in several public interviews. There is no leaker's defense in the US."

      None of which has any relevance as to whether he'd get a fair trial. I'm not sure you really get how this whole justice thing works - hint: judgements are not decided upon what did or didn't happen in the spotlight of the media, only what happens in the court room.

      I;'m not sure you uinderstand the meaning of the term fair trial.

      A fair trial is a trial where the defendant has the right to properly respond to the evidence. If said evidence is truly overwhelming, the tiral is basically a formality. Just ask Lars Ulbricht.

      In this case, the evidence is overwhelming. Snowden's on video saying he leaked the documents. His media partners have made numerous statements he leaked the documents. His Allies have made numerous statements that he's being persecuted because he leaked the documents. He's engaged in numerous actions that only make sense if he's on the run for leaking documents. Under US Law his defense (that it was in the public interest to expose unconstitutional behavior) is simply not allowed.

      Granted, in theory a Jury could decide that he did not leak documents, but for that to work he'd have to convince them that his televised confessions were the delusional ravings of a madman and the media went along with it to protect the real leaker.

      So in the real world, if the ECHR rules he can't be extradited they won't be ruling on whether his trial would be fair, because (as a very lady said about a similar gentleman) "a fair trial results in a hanging," they'd be ruling that European Human Rights law requires a public interest defense, and therefore no European law is allowed to be equivalent to the Espionage Act.

      "The absolute last person in the world who wants a fair trial is Ed Snowden, because a fair trial results in a conviction. The absolute last people in the world who want to unfairly try Ed Snowden are the US Government, because the only way for them to lose a case like this is unfairly try it."

      Yep, and that's why Guantanamo detainees were treated so fairly over the yea... oh wait, no, they weren't. It's a bit of a stretch to pretend the US circa 1971 is the same as the UK circa 2015. The last 15 years has provide a plethora of evidence that the quality of the US justice system has seen a profound slide away from fairness.

      Don't play stupid.

      GitMo detainees are non-citizens, non-white, and too poor to afford their own lawyers. Snowden is none of those things.

      I think if you look for examples of white males with enough resources to pay $20-30k for a defense getting wrongfully convicted in the US you'll find that number's lower then the British number, because the US System is specifically designed to be racist and classist in favor of middle-class white guys.

      "And again, this isn't the ECHR that's ruled. I doubt it could rule, seeing as he's not in Europe. It probably needs him to be there, and a US request for ext

    24. Re:Meaningless Gesture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's no need for secrecy, special assassination teams, or anything special.

      That goes without saying but that doesn't mean the government wouldn't do it.

    25. Re:Meaningless Gesture by Xest · · Score: 1

      "If you want to change the subject to the ECHR you can do that, but you'll have to explain why the ECHR would apply."

      Well that's already been done, but you seem unable to stick to the thread of discussion. I should you step right back to the beginning and start again, because you're arguing that I can't bring something up, that is relevant to the actual thread of discussion based on the summary. Believe it or not, discussions on forums can arch from the strict bounds of the original summary.

      "A fair trial is a trial where the defendant has the right to properly respond to the evidence. If said evidence is truly overwhelming, the tiral is basically a formality. Just ask Lars Ulbricht."

      No, that's not a fair trial, that's a kangaroo court. A fair trial is where no assumptions are made before hand, yet you're arguing that the trial is largely irrelevant (a formality). That by definition is not a fair trial, if the trial is a formality then it's anything but a fair trial because you're implying the decision is already made. You apparently don't even have a basic grasp of what justice is, and it's probably not surprising therefore that you're arguing that Snowden should jump into a situation where there's a fair chance he wont get it.

      I can only assume therefore that you're either astoundingly ignorant, or you're trying to justify why Snowden should get fucked because that's politically what you want - in other words you're a rabid wingnut that wants not a fair trial, but exactly the opposite. Sorry, I have no time for that kind of retardation, there's enough of that in places like North Korea, China, and Russia without making it more commonplace in the West as well.

    26. Re:Meaningless Gesture by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      > because it is literally illegal for them to mention to the Jury that Snowden thought the leak was in the public interest

      No, it's not "literally illegal". to mention that. The judge may give explicit directions against it, but intent is a critical and normal part of a legal defense, especially if Mr. Snowden cited the protections of the various "whistleblower" laws. There's also a great tendency of judges to shut down any attempt by a defense attorney to invoke "jury nullification", which is always available to a jury even when the judge explicitly says "you must only convict or acquit on *this* basis".

      > There's no need for secrecy, special assassination teams, or anything special.

      There's also "no need" for the excessive and abusive monitoring that Mr. Snowden disclosed. Except that, there is a _compelling_ need for people involved in such criminal, illegal behavior to punish whistleblowers, and for the people who've invested their professional lives in such abuse to vindicate themselves in anger, and especially for thise still involved in it to prevent any further disclosures or credible disclosures. What does Edward Snowden have left that he refused to leak before now to protect real intelligence assets? What might he feel free to reveal in a US court that might be leaked by the jury or the judge, and recorded in the court record?

      Thee's also "no need" for a prosecutor to fail to present witnesses or for witnesses from the intelligence community, called by the defense, to lie under oath about illegal activity documented by Edward Snowden. But it's extremely likely to happen.

    27. Re:Meaningless Gesture by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      > because it is literally illegal for them to mention to the Jury that Snowden thought the leak was in the public interest

      No, it's not "literally illegal". to mention that. The judge may give explicit directions against it, but intent is a critical and normal part of a legal defense, especially if Mr. Snowden cited the protections of the various "whistleblower" laws. There's also a great tendency of judges to shut down any attempt by a defense attorney to invoke "jury nullification", which is always available to a jury even when the judge explicitly says "you must only convict or acquit on *this* basis".

      > There's no need for secrecy, special assassination teams, or anything special.

      There's also "no need" for the excessive and abusive monitoring that Mr. Snowden disclosed.

      Ever heard of the Pentagon Papers?

      The government got that Judge to rule that Ellsberg could not present a public interest defense. That meant no witnesses saying "it's great he leaked this, I needed to know that," no documents saying he should have leaked it, if his attorney seems to be getting in a bunch of digs and questions that would give the Jury the impression it was a good idea he leaked it the only way to make the Trial fair for the Prosecution (remember: "Fair Trial" goes both ways) is let them present the widow of a Green Beret crying her eyes about how evil Danny Ellsberg dishonored her husband's memory, etc. Ellberg was fucked.

      Then Nixon tried to rig the trial by refusing to disclose the source of evidence, attempting to bribe the Judge, etc. So Ellsberg today is a free man.

      They're not gonna risk that agin.

      Snowden will get a perfectly fair trial. Since he leaked the documents, and the question answered at trial will be "Did Ed Snowden leak these documents?," he will be found Guilty unless there is a reasonable case that some other person leaked those documents.

      Except that, there is a _compelling_ need for people involved in such criminal, illegal behavior to punish whistleblowers, and for the people who've invested their professional lives in such abuse to vindicate themselves in anger, and especially for thise still involved in it to prevent any further disclosures or credible disclosures. What does Edward Snowden have left that he refused to leak before now to protect real intelligence assets? What might he feel free to reveal in a US court that might be leaked by the jury or the judge, and recorded in the court record?

      Thee's also "no need" for a prosecutor to fail to present witnesses or for witnesses from the intelligence community, called by the defense, to lie under oath about illegal activity documented by Edward Snowden. But it's extremely likely to happen.

      I'm not sure you understand what a "Trial" is.

      A trial is the bit the Jury hears.

      No Jury, ever, in the history of the United States, has been asked whether to let someone off on an espionage charge because the public interest outweighed the law. That's a Question of Law, and it is decided pre-trial, or (if a conviction happens) post-trial during the Appeals process. The entire basis of the Jury system is that Juries decide Questions of Fact (in this case: has the prosecution proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Ed Snowden leaked the documents in question?), rather then Questions of Law (everything you're arguing, which is basically that his actions did enough good that he should not be Prosecuted). Therefore precedent is that the "public interest" is not a valid defense. Snowden's lawyers will try to make that case pre-trial, the Judge will shoot their asses down because his job is to enforce the law as it has been enforced for years.

      This means the defense cannot legally call a witness who will testify that PRISM was evil. If he (and his lawyers) threaten additional leaks then there will be additional charges of Obstruction of Justice, and the

    28. Re:Meaningless Gesture by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      "If you want to change the subject to the ECHR you can do that, but you'll have to explain why the ECHR would apply."

      Well that's already been done, but you seem unable to stick to the thread of discussion. I should you step right back to the beginning and start again, because you're arguing that I can't bring something up, that is relevant to the actual thread of discussion based on the summary. Believe it or not, discussions on forums can arch from the strict bounds of the original summary.

      Here's my problem with that:
      Nobody (except me) has presented any reason why the ECHR should intervene that actually uses legal terms correctly.

      In particular you tech geek types seem so fixated on the "fair" bit of "fair trial" that you literally cannot comprehend that, legally speaking, a Fair Trial for Ed Snowden always results in a conviction; and therefore the ECHR is not able to keep him in Europe due to the likelihood of an unfair trial.

      I have explained, several times, why a Fair Trial would always convict Snowden, and that the typical tech geek's strong belief that a trial that does not allow you to tell the Jury the Law is Evil is not unfair, it's fucking Tuesday. That does not happen at trial. It cannot happen at trial. If it happens at trial the trial is, by definition, unfair. That can happen pre-trial, or in appeals. But "Trial" is a very specific legal term, that is used for extremely limited legal purposes, and you do not, absolutely do not, ever, have the right to tell a Jury that you should not be convicted of leaking information because said information needed to be leaked.

      What you guys are doing is analogous to what happens when one of your non-geek family members latches on to one word in a multi-word technical term and then takes hours of convincing before they realize that "Universal Serial Bus" products are not universal, and no their Amiga is not supposed to have a port for their iPhone.

      For the record, yes I know I'm being fucking pedantic. Even for the internet. But we're not talking about the Chicago Bears here, we're talking about the law, and the law is the most pedantic subject ever created by the mind of man, so it's pretty important that you actually understand the terminology you're using.

      Roughly 99% of the anguish caused by the EFF's failure to get the Courts to stop PRISM is caused by people not understanding how difficult it is to win a case like this, which is directly related to their difficulties parsing legal terminology.

      "A fair trial is a trial where the defendant has the right to properly respond to the evidence. If said evidence is truly overwhelming, the tiral is basically a formality. Just ask Lars Ulbricht."

      No, that's not a fair trial, that's a kangaroo court. A fair trial is where no assumptions are made before hand, yet you're arguing that the trial is largely irrelevant (a formality).

      There's normal legal pedantic, and then there's dumb legal pedantic.

      The Jury is not allowed to make assumptions. Which is actually one of Snowden's problems, because if the Defense can't call a witness who says the NSA programs were illegal, and the Judge is required to throw out anyone on the Jury who seems to know the difference between PRISM and Klingons (they already know about the case) then it's highly unlikely anyone in the Jury room is going to try for Jury nullification and let Ed free.

      But the entire cases of both Prosecution and Defense are assumptions about a) the evidence that will be presented, and b) how that evidence will play in the Jury room. Both sides have their own ideas about how the case should bed, and it's the Jury's job to decide whether the Prosecution's idea has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. The Judge sees the evidence before the Jury does, and is told the lines of argumentation the two sides will use (Ulbricht's lawyers, for example, got their asses handed to them by the Judge because they waited until mid-trial to tell him what

    29. Re:Meaningless Gesture by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      I actually remember the Pentagon Papers, though not well from reading about them: it was roughly 50 years ago. But if you're referring to the charges filed against Ellsberg, please actually review the case, and then please try to claim that an accused whistleblower can get a fair trial as a matter of course. Even that one ruling by Judge Byrne that Ellsberg could not discuss his _intent_ for revealing the documents was grounds for appeal, and as best I could tell from the time part of a campaign to publicly discredit Ellsberg as a criminal. That ruling was, as best I could tell, not based on law or any publicly admitted US judicial standard. Fortunately for Danial Ellsberg, and unfortunately for the judge who clearly favored the prosecution, prosecutorial and other federal agency misconduct became to outrageous that even Judge Burne had to declare a mistrial. And from the time, the mistrial was to avoid an acquittal or an appeal, which would have been even _more_ embarrassing for the prosecution.

      Since the Pentagon Papers, there have been specific laws to _protect_ whistleblowers, especially the Whistleblower Protection Act of 1989. So please: do not cite a horrible ruling from a case declared a mistrial as establishing some sort of legal precedent, I would cite that ruling of exactly what Mr. Snowden could and should be frightened of: a horrible, hostile court and prosecutors willing to bend or even break the law to punish a whistleblower.

      The idea that "the point of the trial is always to determine whether the defendant actually did the crime, not whether the crime should be illegal" is fundamentally incorrect. "The crime" usually includes intent as part of the definition of a criminal act. And there is a constitutionally protected court behavior called "jury nullification", in which the law itself is judged to be illegal. And last, there are _constantly_ cases involving the constitutionality of specific laws, filed by defendants trying to get the law itself overturned as unconstituional. Judging the laws, themselves, is a critical power of the judiciary.

    30. Re:Meaningless Gesture by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      Dude,

      They don't challenge the legality of a law at trial. The Jury's role in deciding whether a law should be enforced is restricted solely to Jury Nullification, a practice that every Judge ever appointed has done his damndest to minimize because of it's unsavory use in the past. That means that if you're talking about the legality of a law, and you're using any legal phrase that includes the word "trial" you're being unforgivably imprecise. Trial is a completely different stage of the process, a challenge to the NSA's practices would happen pre-trial.l If the Judge ruled in favor of the defense there's no trial because (as a matter of law) the Judge has ruled Snowden's behavior was not illegal. Since there's no trial, the Prosecution can appeal. OTOH if the Judge rules against the defense, the Espionage Act allows no public interest defense, so Snowden's only hopes would be to prove he didn't leak any documents. But the Defense could also appeal that ruling post-trial, which could be very complicated if they won.

      And, as I said, The Ellsberg debacle is why his trial will be perfectly fair. The reason you think that Judge was biased isn't that he was applying the law improperly, it's that you think the law is already written the way you want when that is clearly not the case. I don't blame you for that. The English Majors who dominate the media aren't any better at actually comprehending technical legal documents then they are at comprehending any other sort of technical document; and most of them are so busy cheering for the cub reporters who beat Nixon on getting those Pentagon Papers published they literally haven't looked into what the law says about Ellsberg.They thought Nixon sucked, so they thought that when Blume ruled for Nixon Blume sucked, and it never occurred to them that if Blume was half as bad as they say nobody would ever have heard of Nixon's offer to make him FBI Director.

      They really truly are clueless about the rules.

      For example, have you read the Whistleblower Protection Act? It's pretty dense, but It says Snowden can't be fired for reporting misconduct through proper channels. Which would mean if he'd done what the Founders intended, and snitched to Congress, while staying in Hawaii, it would be more difficult to fire him (altho since he was a contractor they could probably fuck with his contract). But he left his job (which makes a bill that stops his boss in Hawaii from penalizing him at work somewhat superflous), he went through a ex-lawyer journalist who lives abroad (and thus is not a proper channel), etc.

      In short, it simply does not apply to this case, or any other that uses the 1917 Espionage Act.

      But since the media don't know that, they'll continue to go along in their belief that their sources are absolutely protected, they'll continue to tell you said sources are protected, they'll continue to imply that Obama's leaker conviction-spree is so bad the Courts will have to stop it soon, people like Snowden will continue leaking through them, which makes their ratings go up, makes future leakers likely to use them, and also (incidentally) makes said leakers go to prison; and people like you will continue to contribute to the process.

      Seriously. A voice-mail to your Congressman asking him to call you back with his position on a) whether Snowden broke the law as it is currently enforced, and b) if so what changes to the law could fix that problem so the poor fucker could come home; would probably have taken you a lot less time then researching when that Whistleblower Act got passed. But you won't do it because you're in total denial about how the law works, and the media will continue to tell you you;re right about how the law works because if they didn't they'd feel incredibly guilty about grabbing eyeballs via leaks that will get Ed Snowden sent to prison.

    31. Re:Meaningless Gesture by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      To your last point: a call to a senator or representative is far, far less effectie than a letter, on paper. They're so rare today, and usually only for matters that require real attention, that they have a much stronger effect. And yes, I did write to my senator and representative, that he should be offerred prosecutorial immunity or a pardon in order to safely testify before Congress. And the letter to the president included a suggestion for a Medal of Honor.

      > They don't challenge the legality of a law at trial.

      It happens: not constantly, but still as a matter of course. The ability of judges, and in the longer term of juries, to modify the law itself is one of the critical checks and balances embedded in the constitution. Do look at the docket of the Supreme Court for many instances of just such cases. Also note that very few of these cases _started_ at the Supreme Court: most arose from much lower courts, going through a series of courts until landing on the docket of the Supreme Court for final decisions.

      > In short, it simply does not apply to this case, or any other that uses the 1917 Espionage Act.

      You've a point about the Whistleblower Protection Act, that one is more for wrongful termination than for criminal accusations of espionage. However, the very "Panama Papers" incidents that you referred to should also include the case against the New York Times, described at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.... It's fascinating material, and the Supreme Court decisions provided good grounds for defense against the Espionage Act.

      Also, please note that Snowden did report misconduct "through proper channels". He was ignored by his own superiors as a matter of course and the criminal activity continued. There is little reason to believe the NSA's claims of "we can't find them", because they _have_ found at least one set of such emails, but only after saying no such email existed for many months. The NSA lies as a matter of course, to Congress and to FOIA requests. Their testimony in court cannot be trusted.

      Please also note that the NSA policy of lying to Congress made Mr. Snowden going direclty to Congress likely ineffective and potentially quite unsafe. I admit to not dealing at this criminal level with security agencies, but have seen it regularly in bureaucracies and in handling security incidents. Whistleblowers are _destroyed_ as quickly as possible, partly to stop the leaks, partly to discredit their claims, and partly as a warning to others.

    32. Re:Meaningless Gesture by Xest · · Score: 1

      "Nobody (except me) has presented any reason why the ECHR should intervene that actually uses legal terms correctly."

      The ECourtHR is not something that intervenes unless it receives a case. If Snowden moved to a European country, that country decided to extradite him, and he filed an appeal to the ECHR then the ECHR is duty bound to consider hearing that appeal, which it would do if it genuinely thought there was a chance of maltreatment. Something it has determined in a number of US extradition cases FWIW - in large part because the US prison system is deemed to be a fucking joke with no effort whatsoever put into rehabilitation or support given for vulnerable prisoners to sort them the fuck out rather than for them to face a high risk of suicide and being killed - the ECHR recognises that sending people to their death is just fucking wrong. That for what it's worth, is in itself grounds to deny US extradition - no one can be extradited from Europe to the US if there's a substantial risk of the death penalty being imposed. Should the ECHR determine trumps threat to kill Snowden coupled with Snowden's presidential bid to be a subsequent possibility, then that in itself would be enough to deny extradition to the US.

      "a Fair Trial for Ed Snowden always results in a conviction"

      You still completely lack any comprehension of what a fair trial is. A fair trial pre-supposes absolutely nothing. It doesn't matter what he has said out of court - it could just as well be that he's being pressured by the Russians and the Chinese for all you know, and court would be the place for him to open up about that. Maybe his wife leaked the fucking documents and is taking the rap. You don't know. I'm not claiming for one moment that that's the case, but precisely because that sort of thing can be the case is why court cases are started with no presupposition of guilt, yet that's exactly what you're saying they should do, they should be unfair trials, based on hearsay. That's not a court, that's a fucking witch hunt.

      The fact you don't understand that shows an insane lack of comprehension about the legal process by you, and so I don't even know why you'd feel remotely qualified to make a post on such a topic. You don't even understand how courts work at the most basic level.

      "Who said anything about want?"

      I said want because I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt - there's two possibilities here, the first is that you're a flagrant retard, hence why you don't even have a primary school level understanding of justice, the second is that you're just an anti-Snowden zealot who is trying to justify somehow why he should go straight to punishment.

      If you want I can play your game, and accept that yes, you've not openly admitted that's your view, I can pretend you're a flagrant retard instead if that's preferable, but most mature people have the courage of their convictions to admit what they actually want. I don't know, maybe you are just as clueless about justice and Western courts as you're pretending? Maybe you do have a pre-school level of knowledge on the subject? I'd like to think that's not the case and you're just playing dumb for politics though and you're too cowardly to say what you really mean - that you want to see Snowden punished.

    33. Re:Meaningless Gesture by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Nuremburg was not "fair trials" in any sense of the word. The victors wanted their blood, but wanted to feel good about getting it, that's all.

      That wasn't the problem with Nuremberg. The problems were:

      1) Only a small sampling of German war criminals were put on trial

      2) Only Axis powers were charged with car crimes, when the Allies had plenty under their belt

    34. Re:Meaningless Gesture by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Now I don't think Snowden's life would necessarily be at risk, but I could quite imagine him being given a trial in front of a kangaroo court

      That's a given, with a prosecution under the Espionage Act. Snowden wont be allowed to argue that his actions were justified, so it's only a question of how many decades will be on his sentence.

    35. Re:Meaningless Gesture by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      Dude,

      You really don't know what the phrase means.

      I mean really. You are so stuck in this. Dredd Scott got a fair trial. Since the law of the day was inherently unfair, he lost his fair trial and died a slave. The same thing will happen to Ed Snowden, because he actually did the shit he will be tried for. Yes, the Jury will presume him innocent. Yes, the Judge will treat him as innocent. But we know the evidence they will present. We know the defenses available to both sides. And Snowden's case is nonexistant.

      And you've actually confirmed this. We have a saying in the US Legal Community: if you have the facts, pound on the fact, if you don't have the facts, pound on the law, if you don't have the law, pound on the table. You know the case, you know what the trial would be about, and yet instead of talking about the facts that would make Snowden Not Guilty, or the Legal nuance he could use to avoid sentencing; you're pounding on the table.

      As for the ECHR, the Death Penalty is not on the table. Complex arguments about the nature of US Punishment are not likely to work, because the US can simply agree not to put him in whatever ridiculous scenario his lawyers dream up. In fact, to my knowledge, the only time the ECHR has stopped a case because of those punishments it was one of those interesting "you're a sex offender whose sentence is up, but you pissed off the psychologist so he says you're a threat, and you'll stay locked up" cases. the more general case you;re making would result in all extraditions to the US stopping, because everyone sent to prison in the US would face the same conditions as Snowden.

      If Snowden ends up in Europe, his case will focus on the nature of the Espionage statute. He simply doesn't have a case otherwise.

      BTW, I wouldn't be pounding on this particular point if it wouldn't be trivial for Snowden's friends on the internet to solve most of his problems simply by getting Congress to change the fucking law to allow the fucking defense that has them convinced any trial without that defense is inherently unfair.

      Seriously, a Public Interest defense to the Espionage statute is a good idea. Obama like goo-goo good government stuff, and this would eliminate a pain in his ass. The House GOP likes calling Obama a tyrant. This could happen. It would actually help Ed Snowden a whole lot.

      But if his internet buddies are too legally illiterate to acknowledge that under current fucked-up rules, he'd be convicted in a fair trial; then it won't. Because the use is a small-c-conservative political system and somebody really needs to push for any-damn-thing to happen.

    36. Re:Meaningless Gesture by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      Your letter is not quite what I meant. You're talking pardon. I'm talking amend the law so that what he did is no longer illegal.

      Seriously, Snowden is fucked under current law because he can;t tell a Jury "let me off if you think me leaking this was a good idea." That's an illegal defense. That could be fairly easily changed by Congress, but it doesn't happen because everyone is focused on shit that would be much harder to get (ie: a pardon). I recommend a second letter.

      As for "fair trial," you're misunderstanding my objection to your use of the term. A "Fair Trial" is necessarily a "Trial." That is a very specific phase in the legal process that determines whether a suspect goes to prison, and during the actual trial process no law is ever challenged on Constitutional grounds. That happens at Pre-Trial Hearings, or after the Trial and Sentencing are over on Appeal. "Fair Trial," in particular has a very specific meaning, and a fair trial can be completely un-fair if Congress has written the law to fuck you over and the Founders neglected to include a clause protecting your ass. Snowden's fucked because Congress fucked him over in the law, and the Founders didn't have the foresight to bail him out. So, regardless of whether his conviction is fair in principle, his trial will be a "Fair Trial" by definition.

      The media love to trumpet the results of the Pentagon papers trial. But it's ridiculous to claim they have any help for Snowden. They show Greenwald and Poitras can't be charged for disseminating the info, but they only relate to Snowden if you squint real hard.

      Chelsea Manning and roughly a half-dozen others have been charged under this law by Obama, and only one has gotten off. The Supremes didn't even bother hearing any Constitutional arguments they made.

      As for going straight to Congress, how could that have been less safe then fleeing to Cuba via Russia? Particularly since the worst his job could do to him was fire him, and he clearly didn't want to keep said job. Hell, send a flash drive to Wyden. It'd be mighty tricky to track down the guy who sent that.

    37. Re:Meaningless Gesture by Xest · · Score: 1

      Please don't ever try and be a lawyer, your understanding of the law, and your insistence that you know it when you simply have no idea what path Snowden's lawyers would take is painful to watch.

      You still don't even grasp the basic concepts of trials, let alone have any idea whatsoever what legal routes Snowden's lawyers could take.

      You're just an internet commentator commenting way above your knowledge and intelligence level on the topic. It's embarrassing.

    38. Re:Meaningless Gesture by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      > Your letter is not quite what I meant. You're talking pardon. I'm talking amend the law so that what he did is no longer illegal.

      This is the same Congress which has failed to defund Guantanamo Bay, and failed to defund the broad scale monitoring of American citizens in which the NSA still engages as a matter of course, which has failed to take the NSA to talk for lying outright to them, and which has failed to repeal the Patriot Act. There are _already_ legal protections for revealing classified information, cited by the Supreme Court concerning the New York Times publication of the Pentagon Papers, but I don't see this Congress as willing to improve or clarify those protections. It's much too easy to be painted as "unAmerican" for attempting to do so, much as many conservatives have continued to paint Edward Snowden as a traitor.

      > during the actual trial process no law is ever challenged on Constitutional grounds.

      Only if you "squint real hard" as you describe it. Jury nullification is part of the "the trial process". Lawsuits against federal officials for unconstitutional laws, such as http://cnsnews.com/news/articl... are also constitutional challenges against the law itself. So are the constitutional challenges to 3 strikes laws, which admittedly have been more successfully challenged on appeal after sentencing. So are challenges to gun laws, filed by plaintiffs who've been charged with violating those laws. I'll accept that many of these challenges are not part of the conviction or acquittal phase of a trial, but they're certainly part of the overall court procedures leading to a conviction or acquittal on the grounds of a law, itself being illegal.

      It's not common, but it's certainly part of the court proceedings. As you're pointing out, it may not be part of the trial proper, and it may not be technically correct to call the pre-trial proceedings part of the trial. But the Supreme Court docket always has _plenty_ of cases where the law, itself, is being challenged by a defendant and their legal team.

      > As for going straight to Congress, how could that have been less safe then fleeing to Cuba via Russia

      As distasteful as it may be, _Hong Kong_ and the Russians had strong motivation to protect him to embarrass the US, and were willing to work with his requests for Asylum. I don't see how the current Congress would do anything other than deny requests for immunity and turn him directly over to federal prosecutors, so he'd be facing immediate arrest, incarceration, or simple assassination. He'd certainly be denied any opportunity to testify publicly, and he'd lose most of his ability to control which documents to newly release to counter the blatant lies the NSA has told about its practices. I actively applaud his attempts to _control_ what he released, to not imperil active agents in the field, but he'd certainly lose that if he is ever held in the USA.

    39. Re:Meaningless Gesture by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      Please don't ever try and be a lawyer, your understanding of the law, and your insistence that you know it when you simply have no idea what path Snowden's lawyers would take is painful to watch.

      You still don't even grasp the basic concepts of trials, let alone have any idea whatsoever what legal routes Snowden's lawyers could take.

      You got a precedent to back that up?

      Because, as I said, multiple people have been convicted in just the past few years of violating the same law Snowden's violating.

      Either you're arguing their trials were inherently unfair, you're arguing those trials did not meet European standards of fairness; or you're using the term "fair trial" wrong.

      To go to the dictionary definition of fair trial it's "the term given to a trial in the presence of an impartial judge and jury." The part of the legal algorithm that determines whether the law says what the government needs it to say to get a conviction is pre-trial, "Fair trial" only means that you have a right to challenge the facts under the rules set forth pre-trial.

      For example, in this case if Snowden could prove that there was a reasonable case to be made someone not named Ed Snowden leaked those documents he could win. But that's really hard to make, because the only person with access to the documents, who flew to Hong Kong to meet with Poitras and Greenwald, and then admitted that he leaked the documents in numerous interviews, all of which are admissible because the US Government wasn't coercing him, is Ed Snowden. So he'd have to convince a Jury that, while he was in Honolulu, the Chinese forced him to flee to hong Kong and then either a) Poitras and Greenwald conspired to make him look like the leaker, or b) the Chinese forced him to pretend he was the leaker.

      To be fair the Judge has to give him the right to make that case. But the fact that he has the right to make that case, does not mean his chance of getting off under that scenario is 10%, or even rounds up to 10%. I suspect his chance is roughly equivalent to the chance of Jury Nullification.

      You're just an internet commentator commenting way above your knowledge and intelligence level on the topic. It's embarrassing.

      Pot meet kettle.

    40. Re:Meaningless Gesture by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      1) So you haven't told your Congressman that you want him to do these things, none of your neighbors have told him, and you're surprised he has not gotten off his ass to do those things?

      That kinda sums up the problem with both the geek community, and the American people on these issues. We have a government that is designed to be highly user unfriendly. It is designed to be a whole lot of fucking work. It is the command-line of governments. We have two houses that matter, an independent executive, hundreds of powerful and totally autonomous Congressman (Canadian MPs, for example, boast of their defiance of leadership if they vote against it 1% of the time), of course it's fucking complicated, complex, and stupidly inefficient.

      Yet we want to sit on our asses, eating popcorn, throw some money at lawyers, and assume that there's some evil conspiracy when nothing we want to happen happens.

      Hell let me put it to you this way:
      Obama is the President we will have until January of '17. He started the investigation of Snowden. What strategy is more likely to work: getting Obama to pardon Snowden, or getting Congress to change the law?

      Neither would be easy short-term, but if somebody had spent $50k on an organizer to lobby for a change to the Espionage Act, instead of several times that on a lawyer to parse the Constitution before being thrown out due to a lack of standing, you;d probably have gotten a bill through committee by now.

      At this point we're almost best off firing all the lawyers, and just showing up aty every Presidential candidates events and asking Snowden pardon questions until they're all on fucking record.

      But, of course, to make sure everybody got hit you'd need an organization, which means you'd need an organizer. And Americans hate paying organizers.

      2) I didn't say you couldn't use the Courts to fight bad laws, I said that isn't part of the trial process. And it isn't. It's allowed several places, but they are completely different steps in the process. Why? because the trial is what happens in front of the Jury, and the Jury is there to decide the Facts, Questions of Law are left to the Judge and not addressed at trial lest they influence the Jury.

      This is the law. It is pedantic even by internet commentator standards. In this case the problem with your use of the term is that it's virtually impossible for him to not get convicted at a fair trial. Documents he seems to be the only person who could access leaked, he flew to honk Kong on very short notice, the media started talking about a leaker in Hong Kong, they later publicly identified Snowden as said leaker, etc. Fair trial means he can offer a bunch of alternative explanations, not that he can ask the Jury to nullify the law.

      BTW, if the Judge thinks that his lawyer is offering a case that would encourage nullification, "Fair trial" actually means he has to fuck Snowden over. The Jury is not supposed to decide whether the law is good, so the Judge is supposed to order a mistrial due to defense misconduct if he thinks the Jury is getting a "this law is evil and you should let Ed off" message. Why? Because both sides have to be able to present their case to the Jury, and if the Defense's case is "this law is shit," then the Prosecution either has to be allowed to defend the law (which would probably mean a lot of witnesses saying "if only Ed hadn;t broken the law my buddy wouldn't be dead," which biases the Jury against Ed, so the mistrial is by far the more likely option), or the entire case has to be thrown out.

      There's always a non-zero chance of nullification, but since nullification is indistinguishable from the Jury simply not believing the Prosecutions's case it's both virtually impossible to measure, and considered much more important by pop culture then it is in real life.

      3) He coulda snitched to Wyden. then Wyden can ask questions about program

    41. Re:Meaningless Gesture by Xest · · Score: 1

      "You got a precedent to back that up?"

      I don't need a precedent, because it's not something that's affected by precedent - another legal misunderstanding on your part.

      The fact is you simply don't know what argument Snowden will make in court, you don't know what fumbles the prosecution might make that could nullify their case, you don't know what instruments Snowden's lawyer maybe able to use including appeals to conflicting or higher law (i.e. perhaps a clause in the constitution) and you don't know what loopholes a great lawyer maybe able to find. You don't know these things because the trial hasn't happened, and because you're blatantly not a lawyer.

      Yet despite this, you're still claiming the outcome is predetermined, and the only way to ever be sure of that is if there was no opportunity for a fair trial in the first place. Again, I'll make it abundantly clear - in a fair trial there can be absolutely no pre-supposition about the outcome.

      The case against Oscar Pistorius for murder was pretty cut and dried too, but it turns out that if you fire a gun through a door at someone you couldn't possibly know that you might kill them. The fact is that judicial systems can throw up some pretty nonsensical claims that create conditions for outcomes that we would never expect and to hence pre-judge the outcome of a trial and suggest it's just a formality is incredibly naive and stupid. It's that idiocy you're displaying that highlights how little you know, and how naive you are when it comes to legal matters, and it's for that reason that you should probably just stop digging.

      "Pot meet kettle."

      Well at least you admit you've no idea what you're talking about if nothing else, even if you falsely imply I have no idea to. The difference is I'm not the one pretending to know things that I don't, whereas you're making claims about things you couldn't possibly know. You're allowing your political bias to interfere with your attempt at arguing that facts, and it's causing you to fail hard at achieving anything - you're not achieving your political aims of getting people to agree that we should just fuck justice and lynch Snowden because you're using an argument that's intellectually bankrupt and trivial for anyone with even the most basic understanding of law and justice to see right through.

    42. Re:Meaningless Gesture by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      You remember that episode of the Colbert Report where he had his brother on? The guy who drawn that famous Obama poster was being sued for copyright infringement, and Stephan's brother is a copyright lawyer. When asked flat-out which side is legally correct the brother went through a list of arguments both sides could use. Twice. He justified this by saying "Depends on which side's paying me," so Stephen said "Well I'm paying you, and I want to know which side is right."

      You are doing precisely what Colbert's brother did. If you;re a lawyer you've seen weird cases that ended in ways that could not be predicted, and your job is actually to make those weird endings happen, so you simply refuse to comment on any cased until it has been played in front of a Judge. But the reality is that those of us who are not lawyers cannot base our lives on "well nobody knows until they see the arguments," we have to base them on the idea that generally following what the law says is statistically less likely to result in getting our asses handed to us in Court.

      I'm not making the case that it is impossible to conceive of some miraculous claim that he could theoretically have that would save him. I'm not saying he couldn't get Jury Nullification. OJ got off, after all.

      I'm saying that, if there's a fair trial, and the facts and arguments presented are the facts and arguments we can reasonably infer from what we know about the case, then Snowden is fucked in the sense that his odds of being convicted are extremely high.

      And I'm concluding that this means that a) fears of Snowden's trial being unfair are inherently ridiculous (the government can't increase it's odds of winning by unfairness, but it can increase it's odds of having the case dismissed, it would be extremely stupid for them to do anything that isn't squarely within the legal norm), and b) Europe's ability to keep him from being deported (should he end in Europe) are much more restricted then his allies think.

      There's no political agenda there. It's the law, as applied to real world behavior.

      OTOH, most of the rest of the people on this thread have a very strong political agenda to keep him from being prosecuted, and have therefore convinced themselves that a) no fair trial could convict him, and b) Europe/Putin/flavoroftheweek will be so impressed by his inherent righteousness that it swoops in from on high and makes everything all better. One guy actually cited the whistleblower protection act (which has absolutely no use for a former employee, or a whistleblower whose gone through the media) as a potential hurdle for the government.

    43. Re:Meaningless Gesture by Xest · · Score: 1

      And on you go trying to pretend you know the future, justifying it by arguing that there's no point living live not pretending we know the future. What an odd set of logic, what possible need is there to insist you know the future of a Snowden trial other than political zealotry? You're only making the case that your argument is wholly about personal hatred of Snowden stronger by making such logically bankrupt arguments. I'd have so much more respect if you just came out and said what you mean - "I think Snowden needs to be found guilty and punished". I mean come on, are you really so insecure in your own political views that you have to try and weasel them in with a persistent misrepresentation of the law, misrepresentation of the definition of a fair trial and so forth? Grow some balls and say what you mean, or accept that you can't say what you mean because you know full fucking well that you're being blatantly irrational and can't admit it.

      You then claim no political agenda and say it's the law, but that's the problem, it's not the law, the law (yes, even in the US) makes it clear that no trials should have pre-judged outcomes, yet you're still trying to justify that that's exactly what this trial should have based on your broken, arrogant "I know the future and am always right" nonsense.

      And no, I don't know that episode of the Colbert Report because I've never ever watched it, nor do I believe it has ever even been shown here in the UK.

      The fact that you still claim you know the unknowable because you have a political agenda is comical at this point, could you really be any more arrogant and ignorant?

    44. Re:Meaningless Gesture by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      So you acknowledge that my argument is that barring unknowable shit he would be punished by a perfectly fair trial, and yet you're claiming anyone who says that is politically biased because unknowable shit is theoretically possible.

      As for my politics, has it ever occurred to your all-American Patriotic brain-washed mind that it is possible to think that the normal course of American Law would result in evil shit? I don;t know about you, but I live here. So I don't buy the hype.

      Moreover, are you sure you like Snowden? You admit that it would take some totally unlikely, completely unknowable, and fairly ridiculous scenario for him to get off under current law. Yet rather then say "Gee, maybe we should fucking change current law so he's got a shot at not being convicted," you're all "but he's got a chance!"

  6. EU Should Mind Their Own Business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    They have better things they should be focusing on, like keeping the migrant hordes away from the borders.

    Snowden is a fugitive from US justice, he must answer for the crimes he committed against the US government. This is none of the EU's business, this resolution is just a masturbatory exercise.

    Snowden needs to be brought back to the US and punished.

    1. Re:EU Should Mind Their Own Business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, he needs to come back and stand trial, and only punished if that is what the court decides.

      (which it shouldn't, but that's not my decision)

    2. Re:EU Should Mind Their Own Business by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 2

      They have better things they should be focusing on, like keeping the migrant hordes away from the borders.

      Snowden is a fugitive from US justice, he must answer for the crimes he committed against the US government. This is none of the EU's business, this resolution is just a masturbatory exercise.

      Snowden needs to be brought back to the US and punished.

      It seems that he worked around that problem. Maybe the NSA should have behaved instead.

      The EU is a fine example of why keeping the migrant hoards away from the borders is counterproductive. The sky did not fall in. The restaurants got better because they could get more native talent for their cuisine type.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    3. Re:EU Should Mind Their Own Business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      There's no end to the punishment I would deliver to Ed.

      First, I'd sentence him to a ticker tape parade.

      Then he'd be made to suffer the receipt of one million ounces of gold.

      Finally, I would inflict a lifetime exemption from all taxation - federal, state, county, and local - upon him and his descendants to the tenth generation.

      I would be absolutely merciless.

    4. Re:EU Should Mind Their Own Business by bsolar · · Score: 1

      The US justice would likely not provide a fair trial in Snowden's case. Until the US justice can provide that, Snowden has all the justifications to remain a fugitive to avoid his fundamental rights being infringed.

    5. Re:EU Should Mind Their Own Business by Bugler412 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      given the pre-judgment, the media coverage, the classified data involved and the associated "national security" options to block the use of that data as evidence for or against him, do you think there is even the slightest chance that Snowden could receive anything close to a "fair trial" in the US?! Nope, not possible....

    6. Re:EU Should Mind Their Own Business by blue9steel · · Score: 1

      Legally he's guilty as sin, he definitely broke the law. The right course of action would be a presidential pardon and a medal of freedom, not that that will actually happen.

    7. Re:EU Should Mind Their Own Business by ScentCone · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Of course it would be a fair trial. And the trial would fairly convict him of exactly the crimes he committed. The reason he's elsewhere is that he knows a fair trial would result in a long prison sentence - exactly in keeping with the consequences to which he agreed when he decided to get into the sensitive work he betrayed.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    8. Re:EU Should Mind Their Own Business by Frank+Burly · · Score: 2

      A fair trial is certainly possible, assuming that he is charged with releasing classified data or something like that the actual content of the classified data is irrelevant. But few of his supporters even argue that he did not release classified data, or that there is no law against releasing classified data. Rather, they argue, that Snowden was serving a higher purpose in breaking the law, therefore he should be found innocent. Necessity is a defense, even to murder, but under the most generous terms these circumstances would not make it necessary to release everything that he did (I am thinking specifically of the revelations of our eavesdropping on foreign governments--which is exactly what the NSA should be doing). Snowden supporters argue that he stole the equivalent of a loaf of bread to feed his family, but a lot of the stuff looks like stolen cigarettes which he sold at a price that was almost giving them away.

    9. Re:EU Should Mind Their Own Business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There are plenty of cases when two laws goes against each other.
      Say for example that you sign an NDA when you start a job, you then find out that your employers source of cheap meat for their burgers is murder victims.
      At that point you are no longer bound by the NDA, it is never illegal to report a crime.

      Here we have a case where a government organization is breaking the law and an IT worker is bound by an NDA. Why should it be illegal for him to report it in this case but not the other?

    10. Re:EU Should Mind Their Own Business by nehumanuscrede · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There is no such thing as a fair trial when the prosecution can use any number of trump cards to ensure things go their way.

      The big one being the State Secrets Privilege. Since all of the evidence is classified ( and the majority of it at Secret / TS level ) there is no way on the planet the intelligence community is going to allow that material to be presented in a courtroom. If you're unable to use any of the smoking gun evidence you've collected in your defense, I'm curious how you would consider the trial to be a fair one ?

      To wit:

      The state secrets privilege is an evidentiary rule created by United States legal precedent. Application of the privilege results in exclusion of evidence from a legal case based solely on affidavits submitted by the government stating that court proceedings might disclose sensitive information which might endanger national security.

    11. Re:EU Should Mind Their Own Business by ScentCone · · Score: 2

      There is no such thing as a fair trial when the prosecution can use any number of trump cards to ensure things go their way.

      You mean, like the truth? The fact that person on trial not only admits what he did, but is on record crowing about it? What else there to even discuss?

      He doesn't need to present the content of stuff he stole to defend himself, because he's on the record as explaining that he did it, when he did it, how it did it, and why he did it. Case closed. Unless you're going to suggest that he'll deny everything he's said?

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    12. Re:EU Should Mind Their Own Business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He should be safe under the whistleblower act: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistleblower_Protection_Act

      But the fact that he disclosed that the powers that be were illegally and traitorously breaking the law means that they will not allow the evidence to be presented in court.

      Though I expect they might just kill him instead. (heart attack or such)

      He is a hero to the constitution, and a traitor only to the traitors that are breaking the law with government blessing.

    13. Re:EU Should Mind Their Own Business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Not being allowed to explain your motivations in open court – that is, to argue that you committed the act but did not have mens rea – is the very definition of an unfair trial.

    14. Re:EU Should Mind Their Own Business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Revealing secrets about your nations legal operations against foreign states is NEVER whistleblowing. He did billions of dollars worth of damage to the US intelligence operations in Asia, Russia, and the Middle East with what he told the Chinese and Russians.

      What he said about the US domestic operations might have won him whistleblower status. Hurting the US to help China and Russia? That's treason.

    15. Re:EU Should Mind Their Own Business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're a statist shill piece of shit. No one is fooled by your fucking oral bowel movements.

    16. Re:EU Should Mind Their Own Business by ScentCone · · Score: 2

      He should be safe under the whistleblower act

      He had no interest in availing himself of the act's protections. He was showboating. Your cartoon fantasies about him dying by fake heart attack, etc., suggest you have exactly as immature and grandstanding-oriented as Snowden (who is clearly realizing what a mistake he made in thinking that treachery was going to count as "cool" for long enough to set him up for life in a place less crappy than Russia, where things are actually more like the cartoon fantasy evil empire crap he pretended to believe about the US).

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    17. Re:EU Should Mind Their Own Business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since it's never a crime to report crimes it seems a bit odd to claim that he would be fairly convicted of anything.

      He did nothing criminal, it's just bullshit accusation made up by worse criminals that wants to cover their asses.

      Also, obvious shill is obvious. You could at least try to post outside of office hours.

    18. Re: EU Should Mind Their Own Business by easyTree · · Score: 1

      Let's play a game.

      It's my game. I set the rules but am not obligated to abide by them. I am free to change the rules whenever I like. I have thousands of advisors to assist my tactics although you are limited to those you can afford to hire. I am able to take all your money at a whim. The game is to the death.

      OK; would you like a cup of tea before we begin?

      Come back! You are required to play by the rules of the game!

    19. Re: EU Should Mind Their Own Business by easyTree · · Score: 1

      Yes. Such an error of judgement that is almost universally-supported by the world's population.

    20. Re: EU Should Mind Their Own Business by easyTree · · Score: 1

      The right course of action would be that the adminisration holds its hands up and speaks truth about its corruption then redirects the defence budget into a time-limited study to find a permanent solution to corruption - as it steps down from office - the office to be held on a temporary basis by honest amateurs until a more permanent solution is found by the study.

    21. Re: EU Should Mind Their Own Business by easyTree · · Score: 1

      The EU is a fine example of why keeping the migrant hoards away from the borders is counterproductive. The sky did not fall in. The restaurants got better because they could get more native talent for their cuisine type.

      The situation is different in the US so the outcome would differ.

      However, once a sufficient number of migrants from planet-mc-fast-'food' are queuing at the border, the strategy may have merit.

    22. Re:EU Should Mind Their Own Business by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Don't you Americans have a Constitution containing a Bill of Rights that includes a clause that allows the people Freedom of Speech? IIRC it basically says that Congress will not pass a law abridging speech and yet you get 5 insightful for thinking that someone exercising his 1st Amendment rights should got to jail, for a long time yet, for simply breaking a non-disclosure agreement.
      Or perhaps you think that your government should not have to obey the Constitution.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    23. Re:EU Should Mind Their Own Business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They have better things they should be focusing on, like keeping the migrant hordes away from the borders.

      Snowden is a fugitive from US justice, he must answer for the crimes he committed against the US government. This is none of the EU's business, this resolution is just a masturbatory exercise.

      Snowden needs to be brought back to the US and punished.

      Donald Trump, that's you isn't it? Take off that roadkill on your head, because it isn't fooling anyone!

    24. Re:EU Should Mind Their Own Business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're a statist shill piece of shit. No one is fooled by your fucking oral bowel movements.

      STFU Troll

    25. Re:EU Should Mind Their Own Business by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      So you are saying that none of the endless speechifying, blogging, interviews and other occasions he's used to explain EXACTLY that on the public record would be magically removed from history?

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    26. Re: EU Should Mind Their Own Business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Might makes right, news at 11. Look, those in power will do exactly whatever they want to do, whenever they want to and to whomever they want to. And there is nothing you or a million other chumps like you and me can do about it. What we can do is keep away from trouble and hope nobody that matters takes an interest in us. That's how it is. That's how it has ALWAYS been. That is how it's going to be, forever and ever. If you have half a brain and half a heart, you will teach your kids to behave, step in line, and learn to carve their own niche in the world and live within it. One can still be content.

    27. Re:EU Should Mind Their Own Business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Of course it would be a fair trial. And the trial would fairly convict him of exactly the crimes he committed.

      Daniel Ellsberg disagrees. He *strongly* disagrees: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/daniel-ellsberg-nsa-leaker-snowden-made-the-right-call/2013/07/07/0b46d96c-e5b7-11e2-aef3-339619eab080_story.html

    28. Re:EU Should Mind Their Own Business by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      He had no interest in availing himself of the act's protections.

      Would you be willing to literally stake your life on the claim that he would have actually received the proper protections and not be mistreated but the famously moderate and careful US law enforcement? What about someone else's life? Would you stake the life of your partner or a child (if you have one) on that?

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    29. Re:EU Should Mind Their Own Business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, cold_fjord is now called ScentCone? What's your next pseudo: StinkCloud?

    30. Re: EU Should Mind Their Own Business by blue9steel · · Score: 1

      That's both unlikely to happen and unlikely to work. Corruption is eternal, it's part of human nature, all we can do is try and build systems that assume it will happen and attempt to mitigate it.

    31. Re:EU Should Mind Their Own Business by david_thornley · · Score: 0

      Snowden would get a fair trial, and would be convicted. It's an open-and-shut case. There would be no reason not to give him a fair trial.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    32. Re:EU Should Mind Their Own Business by Agripa · · Score: 1

      He should be safe under the whistleblower act: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      Even if the protections offered by the Whistle-blower Protection Act were not dubious and routinely ineffective, at the time it did not apply to contractors including Snowden. It operates more as a trap to encourage whistle-blowers to reveal themselves so they can be properly persecuted.

    33. Re:EU Should Mind Their Own Business by Agripa · · Score: 1

      He had no interest in availing himself of the act's protections.

      The act's protections did not apply to him as a contractor.

  7. There are alternative explanations by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 3, Interesting

    At the same time, the close vote — 285 to 281 — suggested the extent to which some European lawmakers are wary of alienating the United States.

    Or, maybe European politicians are just sharply divided over the issue. That would be easy to believe, even if it doesn't fit the narrative of the poor little EU always cowering whenever the US clears its throat.

    --
    #DeleteChrome
    1. Re:There are alternative explanations by Flavianoep · · Score: 1

      At the same time, the close vote — 285 to 281 — suggested the extent to which some European lawmakers are wary of alienating the United States.

      Or, maybe European politicians are just sharply divided over the issue. That would be easy to believe, even if it doesn't fit the narrative of the poor little EU always cowering whenever the US clears its throat.

      Perhaps they are considering that supporting Snowden will encourage whistle-blowing in their own countries, while those who voted not to prosecute Snowden are just for the photo ops, counting on the ineffectiveness of the resolution.

      --
      Linux is for people who don't mind RTFM.
    2. Re:There are alternative explanations by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      It's common for politicians to vote for something knowing it won't pass, because it gets them points without gaining rage from those against it. If it had a real chance of passing, they woulf quickly turn against it.

      Every now and then a bill comes up in the US where many of the co-sponsors of it vote against it because, holy shit, they didn't think it had an actual chance of passing! This is very embarrassing.

      Well, not really. They are politic8ans with no shame.

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      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    3. Re:There are alternative explanations by tomhath · · Score: 1

      Or, maybe European politicians are just sharply divided over the issue.

      That seems far more likely to me. They aren't shy about criticizing the US for pretty much everything else.

    4. Re:There are alternative explanations by poetmatt · · Score: 0

      Maybe they weren't.

      The real vote wasn't 285 to 281. It was 342 to 274. Not "Close".

      see: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/...

    5. Re:There are alternative explanations by madbrain · · Score: 1

      There are 2 different votes referenced on that page. The one about Snowden is the second one.

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      -- Julien Pierre http://www.madbrain.com/blog
    6. Re: There are alternative explanations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They can keep criticizing as long as they keep obeying. Which is what is happening right now.

  8. We strenuously object by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 1

    The EU continues to be short for "bedwetting pansies" (French translation).

    1. Re:We strenuously object by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought eu in french just meant "them".

  9. Contradictory? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually, if i'm reading it correctly, Assange is still currently holed up in the Ecuadorian embassy, which is South American soil. Europe has no say in it. My speculation would be that the EU does not wish to threaten their own position in 5eyes by granting asylum to Edward, thereby showing bias for someone the United States Government wants to get its hands on.

  10. Lol by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm old enough to remember how the EU proponents fantasized about antagonizing the US, anticipating the role of Europe as the new superpower. Those times are now long gone and the EU's role is now cemented as a vassal entity of the US. How the self-proclaimed mighty have fallen! :)

  11. Still a fugitive and a traitor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    He is still a fugitive from US law, and a traitor, and subject to extradition treaties. We have them for a reason. To prevent criminals from finding shelter abroad.

    1. Re:Still a fugitive and a traitor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So he has already been found guilty. FUCK YOU AC!!

    2. Re:Still a fugitive and a traitor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, you are agreeable to the idea that the US can spy on your for any or no reason?

      Snowden is a hero.

      If you were alive in the 1770's, you would brand Washington, Jefferson, et. al. traitors also, because they were traitors to the crown.

    3. Re:Still a fugitive and a traitor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're a fucking moron.

  12. Nonbinding But Forceful by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just like a strongly worded letter from the U.N.

  13. Well, consider where he is now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And does the EU feel all cosy with Russia? No it does not.

    Europe's been around longer than the US, and knows that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

    Better to grant this guy asylum and let him live among you as a peaceful friend, AND to give yourself a huge bargaining chip next time the US intelligence trolls ask for "co-operation", than to let him mould himself into a popular hero who successfully challenged The Man thanks to the protection of Comrade Putin.

    Of course America would also be stupid to think it can persuade Putin to extradite him, but the mood of Europe is easier to change. Almost a tie, you say? Let's push the pendulum the other way a little. Maybe US-friendly elements in the EU have pushed for the vote to set this chain of events in motion.

  14. What ever happened to the "Execute Snowden" posts? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's interesting to contrast the tone of the Snowden online discussion today, with when the story first came out in 2013. There was a seeming great hue and cry from millions of anonymous, red-blooded 'Mericans: "He's a traitor, execute him! Have the CIA kidnap him! He's a Russian spy!" Strangely the posts seemed to die down on government holidays.

    Now they are completely silent. I assume their funding was cancelled?

  15. Or, those lawmakers might disagree by XXeR · · Score: 1

    the close vote — 285 to 281 — suggested the extent to which some European lawmakers are wary of alienating the United States.

    This could be the case, but it also could be that they simply don't agree with the proposed resolution. I know Snowden is quite popular on Slashdot (and thus this possibility isn't), but the fact is that not everyone on the planet supports Snowden's decisions.

    1. Re: Or, those lawmakers might disagree by easyTree · · Score: 1

      No matter who agrees, he clearly did the right thing.
      Remember, democracy isn't real and even if it were, there is no need to appeal to the idea of popularity to determine an idea's merit.

  16. Admiral Akbar says... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's a trap!

    1. Re:Admiral Akbar says... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a trap!

      More like "It's a Crap!"

  17. If EU States why not U States? by tanstaaf1 · · Score: 1

    It would make me feel better about my country if various states here would take it upon themselves and independently vote for an equivalent resolution. I'm not aware of any state - not even any city - which has demonstrated the independence and moral leadership to speak up for Mr Snowden. Why not? SF and various other cities have declared themselves sanctuary cities. Why has no US state or city stepped forward and declared sanctuary for a much more deserving cause?

  18. What about Julian Assange, EU? by Max_W · · Score: 1

    Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

  19. FTFY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Snowden herself has tweeted happily about the news.

    FTFY.

  20. You misspelled "Douchebag" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If he had really intended to be a whistleblower, he would have collected relevant data that showed actual abuses and given it to an American journalist anonymously. Instead, he gave a huge data dump of national secrets to a foreigner, fled the country, and started shouting, "Look at me! Look at me!" He isn't a whistleblower, he's a self-aggrandizing douchebag, and anyone who supports him is an absolute moron.