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Crime Lab Scandals Just Keep Getting Worse (slate.com)

Many people are convicted in American courts on the basis of drug lab analysis. Just how accurate or accountable are the people and labs? schwit1 writes with an excerpt that gives a good reminder of how people can land in jail based on fake data, with the example (an outlier, surely) of Annie Dookhan, a chemist who worked at a Massachusetts state lab drug. Dookhan was sentenced in 2013 to at least three years in prison, after pleading guilty in 2012 to having falsified thousands of drug tests. Among her extracurricular crime lab activities, Dookhan failed to properly test drug samples before declaring them positive, mixed up samples to create positive tests, forged signatures, and lied about her own credentials. Over her nine-year career, Dookhan tested about 60,000 samples involved in roughly 34,000 criminal cases. Three years later, the state of Massachusetts still can't figure out how to repair the damage she wrought almost single-handedly.

245 comments

  1. Witness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    "still can't figure out how to repair the damage she wrought almost single-handedly."
    Its up the jury or the judge to rule whom is the most trustworthy. I sure there are many cases that people lie as a witness... there are no repair for that.

    1. Re:Witness by Black+Parrot · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Eye-witness testimony is nigh useless even when people aren't deliberately fabricating. The human brain is just too "flexible" for that kind of thing.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    2. Re:Witness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      fiigure out how to repair the damage she wrought almost single-handedly." ? just put a colt 45 on her temple and shirly temple the trigger so that there is no tampering of evidence when it comes to "whose brains are these"

    3. Re: Witness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is a big difference in scale. If a witness lies in testimony only one case is affected. She has potentially jailed 60,000 innocent people

    4. Re:Witness by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      fiigure out how to repair the damage she wrought almost single-handedly." ? just put a colt 45 on her temple and shirly temple the trigger so that there is no tampering of evidence when it comes to "whose brains are these"

      There's a big difference between revenge/punishment for the responsible person and making things right for all of the people that may have been convicted who were innocent. It's not like you can give them their time back. Nor can you repair the emotional and psychological damage done. Prison isn't summer camp. Spending any significant time there is going to change most people, and not for the best. Most convicted criminals come out as better criminals. I can't imagine what being in that environment would do to someone who knows they shouldn't be there to begin with.

    5. Re:Witness by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Due to CSI and similar shows, forensic evidence is sacrosanct. If you want to go to court today, you better have some DNA test available (even if it makes no sense at all) or the jury will simply not believe you. But having something out of a lab seals the deal.

      Don't get me wrong, it's a GOOD thing that people now give more credibility to material evidence than witnesses, but as usual we're overdoing it.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    6. Re:Witness by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 5, Informative

      To be fair, witnesses should have zero credibility.

      Start here: Intro to Eyewitness Identification, still ongoing. Then go back to the beginning, it's a good read.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
    7. Re:Witness by durrr · · Score: 2

      Thanks to CSI I was found not guilty of a murdering ten people in a public place because an enhanced eye reflection showed I was having vacation in Europe at the time.

    8. Re:Witness by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      That can't be! I was in Europe the whole time and I can't remember seeing you!

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    9. Re:Witness by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      Some of the finest legal minds come from prison.

    10. Re:Witness by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      I guess your passport wasn't admissible? Why?

    11. Re:Witness by BitZtream · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Wrong, you turn every single person free.

      When the evidence is tainted, the case gets thrown out.

      Thats how we ensure the innocent are not put in jail, and we do so at the cost of letting some criminals free when we would have preferred not to.

      But then we consider every person involved in those cases as having failed, specifically the prosecution. And we turn the arrest into a bad arrest and count that against the police.

      When this shit happens, you punish the ever living shit out of everyone involved in the chain that fucked up because they put innocent people behind bars and ruined other peoples lives in their overzealousness to get a collar and conviction.

      Make false convictions essentially a career ender for everyone in the chain and watch how quick things shape up. Make the population so pissed off at any lawyer or cop who allows this shit to happen that they are afraid of being lynched when they fuck up in the future.

      They have no reason to fear mistakes they make, someone else suffers, it has no bearing on their life. Change that and you'll fix the problem.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    12. Re:Witness by trout007 · · Score: 1

      I was in the jury on an assault case. The incident happened about 6 months prior. Not only didn't the witnessss agree with each other but they disagreed with the police reports about what they said.

      --
      I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
    13. Re: Witness by Sique · · Score: 5, Insightful
      As the person who did the drug testing, she (and the other person mentioned in the second article) was a witness. So Annie Dookhan has given false testimony in at least 34,000 cases, and Sonja Farak in another 29,000 cases. And the former Attorney General is alleged to have known beforehand, that Sonja Farak's tests could be tainted and didn't inform the defense attorneys.

      But that's what you get if you measure the success of a state attorney by the numbers of convictions and guilty pleas he gets from the defendants. And that's what you get when ignoring the rights of defendants during the investigation and before court is hailed as "being tough on crime". Somewhere, people are getting sloppy and start cheating just to get higher scores. And instead of justice, you just get high costs for running an extensive prison system to keep all those people, whose convictions and guilty pleas are mostly about their prosecuter's career and not so much about crimes they really committed (if any).

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    14. Re:Witness by AK+Marc · · Score: 2

      And the rest should be there.

    15. Re:Witness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Police reports about what witnesses said are generally written up, by the police officers, from memory, filtered through the officer's biases and perceptions, hours or days after the incident. Why this stuff isn't being recorded, nearly 50 years after portable tape recorders became available, I have no idea.

    16. Re:Witness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wanna run for office? I'd vote for you.

    17. Re: Witness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And therein lies the problem. "she wrought almost single-handedly". How in the hell can you trust a system when there is nothing in place TO trust??

    18. Re:Witness by liquid_schwartz · · Score: 1

      Wrong, you turn every single person free.

      When the evidence is tainted, the case gets thrown out.

      I think that's throwing the baby out with the bath water. Perhaps a more reasonable approach would be to see if the conviction would stand without the fake evidence. For a sample group as large as this there are bound to be many *seriously bad* criminals that it would be a very bad idea to release. Of course, if you're willing to put your money where your mouth is how about we release these people but make you liable for crimes they commit. Kind of like co-signing. Mayhem is all fun and games until it happens in your own neighborhood ;-)

    19. Re: Witness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That she gave false testimony is bad for her, but quite orthogonal to any of her cases.

      Lots of people purger themselves... Including plenty on the defence side.

      It is up to the judge and jury to "judge" the accusors and the accused.

    20. Re:Witness by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but while the first step you propose is correct (and allow them to sue the individuals involved in railroading them for false imprisonment), the rest doesn't work.

      The system as designed is basically flawed. Probably by intent. Punishment, while a necessary component, becomes destructive of rehabilitation when overdone, as it is in every prison I've ever heard described.

      But the right approach wouldn't be cheap. First you need a thorough physical examination to deal with any problems.
      Then there should be a period of complete isolation. And complete means both that you can't talk to anyone, nobody can hear you, and the guards don't come in and beat you up (i.e., this is NOT solitary confinement as currently implemented). This needs to be broken after a couple of weeks by visits from a trained clinician...trained in, probably, Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy. Then small group workshops in an appropriate trade. Appropriate here means appropriate for their personality, not for earning a living. Auto mechanics will probably often be a good choice, or wood working, or home economics. Then develop along any "major" that they are willing to commit themselves to. During this time they need to be continually protected both from injuring someone else and from someone injuring them. Consider that they are "as if" young children living in the bodies of adults. And children can be vicious until they have learned better. Eventually they should be trained for release. I'd like to say trained for a job, and placed by a placement agency, but with unemployment as high as it is, and projected to increase substantially, I see no way that this is plausible. And I don't know what release training is plausible.

      The course I propose is, of course, totally illegal. It involves cutting off all communications with their past for a period of time in a way that is only legal for the military, and in other ways it is similar to basic training. OTOH, it's quite different in other ways...and I hope that the parts I've left out aren't crucial, but they may be. One of the things left out is believable threat of death, but many traditions find this to be an essential component. Perhaps it's necessary to cut the ties to the prior life, and bind them to the new one.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    21. Re:Witness by Tony+Isaac · · Score: 1

      Just because one piece of evidence was tainted, does not mean that all of the evidence in a case was tainted. Most court cases hinge on many pieces of evidence, some of which is DNA evidence. If the DNA evidence is thrown out, the rest of the evidence still might prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Each case would need to be reviewed to determine the strength of the non-DNA evidence before being thrown out entirely.

    22. Re:Witness by Boronx · · Score: 1

      Because they found it with an illegal search.

    23. Re: Witness by Sique · · Score: 1
      You are operating under the false premise that people being accused of something are already guilty, and all a court case is for is enumerating the evidence.

      What she has done is false accusation and giving false testimony. And that's not orthogonal to the case, that is tantamount to it. She was presenting the evidence that actually got the cases to court. And there was no chance for the jury or the judge to question her evidence, It had to be taken at face value as she was the expert witness.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    24. Re:Witness by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      That's an aggressive defense. The Defendant doesn't allow a piece of evidence that would exonerate the Defendant?

    25. Re: Witness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just remember though, the US prison system is mostly privatized, expensive is better!

    26. Re:Witness by Agripa · · Score: 1

      It is not recorded for the same reason that the FBI does not (or did not until recently) record interviews. The officer's report and testimony is assumed to be trustworthy by the court and this presents an avenue to fabricate testimony and discredit inconvenient witnesses. The delay also allows officers to decide together on what to write so they do not contradict each other; they can make up reasons for reasonable suspicion and probable cause after the fact.

    27. Re:Witness by beastofburdon · · Score: 1

      All these people should be released without bail to await a new trial, period. There should be no exceptions since it is clear that all these trials were tainted. If they cannot be convicted again without the evidence that was tainted then they should not be in jail. If the local prosecution cannot handle all the extra cases, well, tough shit, they made their bed and it is time to lay in it. There should also be investigations into all the prosecutors, police, and judges involved, because I highly doubt they were not in on this.

  2. three years? by Black+Parrot · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How about adding up all the time served by the people who got false convictions, then doubling it.

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    1. Re:three years? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You don't seem to understand for whom the system is here to protect.

    2. Re:three years? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I suspect that she'd never get out alive. Even if you just straight added it together

    3. Re:three years? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      System.OverflowException

    4. Re:three years? by interval1066 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Here's a thing that would appear to point to a (another) big flaw in the system; prosecutors are apparently immune from their flawed actions. They're slow to remedy wrongful convictions in these cases this Annie Dookhan tainted, and they don't appear to be accountable. Many of the news articles (and there are a lot about this lab, not only was this Dookhan character tainting evidence, but a co-worker routinely dipped into the drug bin and was high during her processing) remark on the fact that the prosecutors involved refuse to do anything about the thousands sitting in jail based on these faulty tests citing they followed procedure. I can't think of a bigger flaw in a system wherein the ones in power refuse to correct the situation. The criminal justice system in this country is in dire straits. Thanks mainly to the war on drugs.

      --
      Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
    5. Re:three years? by JRV31 · · Score: 1

      The wealthy and the government.

    6. Re:three years? by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 1

      I'm not seeing the problem with this. How many lives did she ruin? It's not just the time people spent in jail. They then have a lot more trouble finding work because of a criminal conviction. There's their family who has to suffer. Plus there are probably some guilty people who weren't convicted.

    7. Re:three years? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      But righting a wrong after it happens is called "reparations" and isn't allowed in the US. Or is it only hated so strongly because we end up owing them primarily to non-white people?

    8. Re:three years? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. Most people in the US have zero problem with paying "reparations" or damages more rightly called to those such as in the case who were wronged. What is reparations is opposed is to people who were harmed 150 years ago + who cannot receive said monies.

    9. Re:three years? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Oh, because I've seen some complaints (here and elsewhere) about the reparations for concentration camps in WWII for funny looking US citizens, at least some of whom are still alive. http://allegiancemusical.com/ one of which is currently starring in an autobiographical story about it.

    10. Re:three years? by sjames · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is a huge part of the problem and is very revealing. Prosecutors and judges decide there is no particular hurry to get the many innocent people convicted by the worst kind of false evidence out of jail, then go home to their nicer than average homes and have a better than average dinner with their families while the innocent eat the cheapest crap that can legally be called food while locked away from their friends and family.

      Once the wheels of justice grind away, more slowly than usual, they will act as if they are doing the falsely convicted the worlds biggest favor simply by not further wrongly punishing them.

      As for compensation, start by looking at how much you have to pay someone to willingly live under poor conditions away from their family for an extended period of time. So you're looking at paying them what you would pay a North Atlantic oil platform worker at a minimum. Then double it because there was no furlough on offer and double it again because they didn't willingly accept the arrangement.

    11. Re:three years? by macs4all · · Score: 1

      How about adding up all the time served by the people who got false convictions, then doubling it.

      That is EXACTLY what I logged in to Post (minus the Doubling; but that's great idea!)

    12. Re:three years? by macs4all · · Score: 1

      Plus there are probably some guilty people who weren't convicted.

      Oh, I doubt that. Not with her attitude.

    13. Re:three years? by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      The problem is far more underlying than that. Basically the core problem is idiot right wing performance based knee jerk from the gut metrics with cost as the primary consideration, even over performance. The problem is core socio-political systems that create the environment for corrupt methods to dominate (more claimed success at a lower cost) and for proper methods to be punished (less claimed success at a higher cost). Basically the whole socio-political environment behind these developments is corrupt and as a result produces corrupt outcomes, on purpose. Then it all goes boom and everyone has to run around picking up the pieces, not sometimes but every single bloody time. Saved pennies to spend pounds and the idiots that saved pennies wander off like it was never their fault, now that everyone has to spend pounds to fix their stupid bloody knee jerk from the gut thinking.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    14. Re:three years? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is really because it's not the prosecutor's job to get innocent people out of prison. It's the defense attorney's. The real problem is that, in an adversarial justice system, we fund the prosecution with orders of magnitude more money than the defense. That's the real travesty that underlies a lot of the problems.

    15. Re:three years? by interval1066 · · Score: 1

      I certainly agree on that. Which reverses the constitutional mandate that the accusers (the prosecutors) are supposed have the burden of proof; they must prove the accused is guilty. The money in the system shifts that burden to the accused in very real terms. Making the judicial system completely broken. This MUST be addressed. Not needs, MUST.

      --
      Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
    16. Re:three years? by HiThere · · Score: 1

      It's not just due to the "war on drugs", though that's a big part. Prisons run for profit is another part of the problem. And the system was in major trouble before the "war on drugs" was officially proclaimed. (If you want to go back to the start in the 1920's or 30's, perhaps you have a point, but I don't know enough to either agree *or* disagree.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    17. Re:three years? by HiThere · · Score: 1

      She's a scapegoat. Not that she didn't do what was said...

      If you want to deal properly with this figure the amount of time served by the prisoners (at 24 hours/day) times the median wage/hour in the country and fine the company that amount. Then divvy that up among the prisoners based on the amount of time served.

      DON'T give the money to the govt. That a malign reinforcement. Perhaps you should take some of it from the prosecutors where there is evidence that they knew or had reason to know that the evidence was tainted.

      That would align results with proper action, but it still wouldn't fix what is a basically broken system.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    18. Re:three years? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is true.
      I mean, she had to be doing this for a reason. You don't go through all the trouble and danger of mixing samples and falsifying paperwork just "for the lulz".

      Whom, exactly, was padding their job performance with her help?

    19. Re:three years? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you assume everything is based on race, you will find racism everywhere.

      Instead, look at the desire for people with power over others to maintain it.

    20. Re:three years? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      So the rounding up of people of the Japanese race and throwing them in concentration camps during WWII wasn't based on race? Good to know. And the "No Blacks" signs weren't based on race either.

      I'm not assuming anything. I'm stating reality. That you hate reality doesn't change it.

    21. Re:three years? by RockDoctor · · Score: 1
      With the tests being dubious, how do you know who got a false conviction (was convicted when actually innocent), who got a correct conviction (guilty when guilty, for the evidence presented), and who got an unfair conviction (guilty when guilty, but not on the evidence presented in court)?

      and, don't the lab procedures, supervision and paperwork checking stand some dispute here too?

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    22. Re:three years? by beastofburdon · · Score: 1

      I think you missed the point here. Innocent people went to jail instead of the guilty.

    23. Re:three years? by macs4all · · Score: 1

      I think you missed the point here. Innocent people went to jail instead of the guilty.

      Oh, I understood PERFECTLY. I just didn't word what I meant clearly, trying to be clever...

      What I didn't do, was use the Sarcasm Tag. What I meant was that she probably said that EVERY sample that she touched was "Positive"; so, if the sample just HAPPENED to be from a truly "Guilty" person, I am SURE those people got Convicted, ***TOO***.

      And that was CERTAINLY not INTENDED to SUPPORT this piece of human excrement; I am truly sorry if it came out sounding that way...

      Personally, I'm in the "Add up the time for all the innocents convicted, TRIPLE it (the usual punishment for doing something willfully, wantonly, and/or with reckless disregard to another), and let that be her sentence" crowd.

  3. Systematic Failure by Hasaf · · Score: 5, Interesting

    People will look at this person as a bd person, and I do not question that; but the system that allowed this to happen is the real culprit. A system that rewards people, formally or subtly, for producing the desired results, is not a system that is engineered for finding truth.

    The reality is that Lae Enforcement and investigation procedures need independent oversight built directly into the system. Otherwise these issues can never be resolved.

    1. Re:Systematic Failure by pubwvj · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, she was a bad person. Just because a system allows you to cheat does not mean you should cheat and if you do cheat you are the bad person, not the system. She should have had to serve the time of all of her victims x 3. She got off way too easily.

    2. Re:Systematic Failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The OP actually agrees with you that she was a bad person, but the system is bad as well if it allows the misdeeds to go unchecked or undetected for so long. In a better system, a blind comparison could be made of the results produced by several different labs. This would of course slow down the court cases, which is probably one argument against decriminalizing most drug-related offenses.

      Captcha: clouded

    3. Re:Systematic Failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't like the idea of the citizens being forced to foot the bill for her incarceration for the rest of her life. I'd say just give each of her victims 5 minutes alone with her. Much cheaper, and it'd be over and done with before lunch time.

      Now how to deal with the issue that there are tens of thousands of people who were wrongly jailed? That's a much tougher problem, and I don't think there's any way to completely right that wrong.

    4. Re:Systematic Failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If you read TFA, you'll note that part of the problem was inadequate separation between her (the crime lab) and the prosecutors. Some of those prosecutors have resigned as a result, which I take to mean that they (her and the prosecutors) were not following the rules of the system regarding her supposed impartiality. In fact, I think that the prosecutors who were contacting her regarding both her personal life and her work and thereby subverting it should be brought up on charges, rather than just allowed to resign. And likewise those who are allowing the prosecutor to resign should be brought up as well, as this is an extremely serious matter that subverts the entire justice system there.

    5. Re:Systematic Failure by nanoflower · · Score: 2

      I'm not sure why you would want to punish the people allowing the prosecutors to resign. They should resign. That won't release them from being punished if they should be found to have tampered with or asked the lab to tamper with evidence.

    6. Re:Systematic Failure by gweihir · · Score: 1

      And it needs somebody that is responsible if this oversight fails and that goes to jail. In the US system that would be the task and responsibility of the prosecutor as it is his/her evidence.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    7. Re:Systematic Failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about we start by letting them out, immediately. The State can get a mistrial declared and retry if they've enough evidence without the tainted evidence. Yes, some guilty people may go free. I'm okay with that. We can worry about reparations later. For now, just let them out - all of them.

    8. Re:Systematic Failure by umghhh · · Score: 2

      If you took views of most of the people innocently convicted with views of the judges Dredds administering justice from comfort of their cellars here you would notice a strange thing - people that served the sentence without committing a crime are maybe not relaxed about it but they tend to forgive the mistakes - they would not survive the stress otherwise. Take Rubin Carter for instance - his life was ruined and he did not go after the public prosecutors or false witness. I guess he could and probably would get suspended sentence for that. Still he did not. Instead he worked for the cause of the wrongly convicted.

    9. Re:Systematic Failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now how to deal with the issue that there are tens of thousands of people who were wrongly jailed? That's a much tougher problem, and I don't think there's any way to completely right that wrong.

      Release anyone convicted based on her reports and expunge their criminal records immediately. Better that 100 guilty go free than 1 innocent person be convicted.

    10. Re:Systematic Failure by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 1

      No system can account for every case and trying will result in a totalitarian government long before it will have anything remotely symbolizing "fair." By the time everything is "fair" the inhabitants of such a system wouldn't even resemble Humans today, they would be more like farmed animals in their ability to think - just look at the British lower class.

    11. Re:Systematic Failure by AK+Marc · · Score: 3, Interesting
      When you can cheat for so long with nobody finding out that you can ruin hundreds of thousands of lives, then the system is also broken.

      She should have had to serve the time of all of her victims x 3. She got off way too easily.

      And what "punishment" for a system that has allowed a single person to screw up 50,000 or so cases? The system is fine. It fucks the poor. It fucks the minorities. It fucks the people we don't like. So keep the system the way it is, and replace the broken cog in the broken machine, and let the broken machine still pump out bad results.

      And 3x the time of the victims is a silly sentence. Let's say every conviction (some wrongly, some rightly) were 1 year (some shorter, some longer), that's 34,000 (current estimate, could be more) years in prison. That's purely symbolic and does nothing to prevent this from happening again, nor make any of the tainted convictions right.

      What would you do with the victims of her crimes?

    12. Re:Systematic Failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wish I had mod points to give for the line "A system that rewards people, formally or subtly, for producing the desired results, is not a system that is engineered for finding truth." struck a nerve because it also applies to the gaming industry, journalism, and critics. It's why I got out when studios started offering freebies for favorable reviews.

    13. Re:Systematic Failure by careysub · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure why you would want to punish the people allowing the prosecutors to resign. They should resign. That won't release them from being punished if they should be found to have tampered with or asked the lab to tamper with evidence.

      I think the objection to "resignation" is that is appears voluntary. They should not be allowed to resign, they should be fired. Yes prosecution should follow also.

      --
      Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    14. Re:Systematic Failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... a system allows you to cheat ...

      She cheated for 9 years: She didn't get away with that because of a lack of review and accountability. She got away with it because the rest of the system didn't want to know what she was really doing. It's just like when the police officers or prison guards protect a criminal colleague. The judicial system is full of this Marxist window-dressing: "Punishing one cop/prosecutor/single mother really punishes all cops/prosecutors/single mothers."

      The judicial system used to be driven by other maxims too:

      "Innocent until proven guilty."
          A reminder to ignore the presumption of guilt. Have a look at how many television cop shows instruct suspects and witnesses to prove their innocence.

      "Justice is blind." and "Everyone is equal before the law."
          The law can imprison everyone so the jury functions as independent review by using community standards to judge the wrongness of the accused's actions.

      It's better to free the guilty than punish the innocent.
          Any miscarriage of justice should result in instant pardons, not 'the prosecution did its job, the facts don't matter' excuse that American jurisprudence now delivers.

    15. Re:Systematic Failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, she was a bad person. Just because a system allows you to cheat does not mean you should cheat and if you do cheat you are the bad person, not the system.

      That solves precisely nothing.

      If the next chemist hired is also a cheat, the system has failed again.
      You need known samples to be sent through the system to test if the entire system is defect free.

    16. Re:Systematic Failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not so much a bad person as just a typical Indian. You don't hire an Indian and expect their qualifications to be legit, or their work to be competent. You hire them because they're cheap.

    17. Re:Systematic Failure by Talderas · · Score: 1

      I'd say just give each of her victims 5 minutes alone with her. Much cheaper, and it'd be over and done with before lunch time.

      I call bullshit, unless you're suggesting that one of these victims would commit murder. 34,000 victims at 5 minutes apiece would take just over 118 days.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
  4. Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by cellocgw · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Just pass some retroactive laws legalizing drug use. Problem solved. No need for new trials. No new costs, and dramatically reduced law enforcement budget going forward. Plus revenue from tax stamps on recreational substances.

    --
    https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
    1. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by EzInKy · · Score: 2

      I like your idea. If there were no penalties for using drugs then there would be no reason for drug users to hide the fact that they use drugs. By their use being illegal, the whole dataset that could provide important information as to both the positive and detrimental effects of drug use is totally skewed. The way it is now, only those stupid enough to be caught using drugs contribute to the data which causes the results to suggest that using drugs makes you stupid. The only way to ensure there is no bias in drug studies is to not have penalties for drug use.

      --
      Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
    2. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Or more simply, every single conviction that used evidence from this lab gets expunged.

      Using this as a push for general legalization is a disservice to those what were falsely convicted. If MA has to clear a bunch who were guilty to clear those that were not, so be it.

    3. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by ScentCone · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The way it is now, only those stupid enough to be caught using drugs contribute to the data which causes the results to suggest that using drugs makes you stupid.

      I totally agree. This whole notion that people who use meth or heroine all day are in any way impacted by those drugs is just The Man trying to keep us down. Substantial studies showing that young people who smoke dope end up dumber, more paranoid, and otherwise developmentally down the scale - that's all just BS (never mind that such studies line up perfectly with the observations any honest person will tell you they've made through their own experience). Yes, it's just like alcohol, I know. Which is a good argument for young people not being drunk all the time, too.

      You know what? Use 'em. But cut off ALL health care paid for in any way by other people, and ALL public assistance when they can no longer hold a job because they're such mental train wrecks. Can't have it both ways. If you want the public to embrace the use of, say, crack or crystal meth, then the public also gets to be off the hook for buying those users a comfortable life at the expense of the people who don't do it, and keep producing. Yes, the same applies for drinking all day, or eating too much fried chicken or schnitzel.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    4. Re: Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That won't work, as as a literal reading of your words implies nobody could be at fault for harming drug users.

      It is one thing to say they are at fault for their own choices, but what about some drunk sleeping on a park bench that is hit by a car driven at a reckless speed?

    5. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Using this as a push for general legalization is a disservice to those what were falsely convicted.

      In what way? Since most of these people weren't harming anyone anyway, it was wrong to convict them on any basis.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      Are you nuts? We have a whole private industry hanging on this!

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    7. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed. Even though most of the convicted probably got away with identical crimes in the past without being caught, their guilt in the specific cases that sent them to jail is so subject to reasonable doubt that the cases should be dismissed, and likely they will need to be compensated for their time.

    8. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by StillAnonymous · · Score: 1

      At the same time, the corrupt, conflict-of-interest-filled prisons-for-profit system needs to be dismantled. The government should pay the prison owners a fair value, and then seize the prisons for state ownership.

      With both of these actions, you'll see incarcerations drop and many of these prisons can be closed or reused for other purposes, like maybe jailing some bankers and politicians!

    9. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrong. Just because it is retroactively legal does not equate to admitting those people did not use drugs. And that is probably what many of them want because society imposes a stigma over drug use. That stigma has real world consequences.

      Very simple, there is no clean, one-size-fits-all solution for the problem. The damage to countless people has been done.
      I find it amazing that she got off with only 3 years for willfully and knowingly ruining the lives of possibly thousands of people.

    10. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by StillAnonymous · · Score: 1

      But cut off ALL health care paid for in any way by other people, and ALL public assistance when they can no longer hold a job because they're such mental train wrecks.

      And what do you expect these people to do then? Magically stop using drugs and go back to being productive individuals? More likely they will resort to crime and the reason for legalizing drugs in the first place will be pointless as you'll have people in jail not for victimless crimes, but now for potentially violent crimes against other people. B&E, assault, armed robbery, to get what they need to survive and get their next fix.

    11. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But cut off ALL health care paid for in any way by other people, and ALL public assistance when they can no longer hold a job because they're such mental train wrecks.

      Ignoring their health completely and paying for their physical health, while not addressing the drug problem, both end up costing society a lot in terms of potential crime and lost productivity. Instead you should take some fraction of that money and use it to run rehab centres and dealing with the social stigma insomuch as it prevents some people from getting help. This has already been done in some places, and as a society you more than make your money back in terms of reduced problems and increased productivity, even if you don't have 100% success rate.

    12. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by reub2000 · · Score: 1

      Bad forensics effects cases other than drug cases. So no, that does not solve the problem.

    13. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More likely they will resort to crime and the reason for legalizing drugs in the first place will be pointless as you'll have people in jail not for victimless crimes, but now for potentially violent crimes against other people. B&E, assault, armed robbery, to get what they need to survive and get their next fix.

      Well, crimes-with-victims are still to be prosecuted. Irrespective of whether it happened out of the perpetrator's free will, under the influence of some substance (including ethanol), due to withdrawal, or even due to "need".

      I personally am in favor of society/government providing some facilities/programs where drug users may voluntarily enroll to help them overcome the addiction and be "re-integrated into society as productive members" before the law catches up with them. Doing that only once a crime has been committed seems a bit ... less optimal. (I live across the street from just such an institution, completely privately funded of course. I believe they do very good work, but have to turn away many applicants due to lack of capacity.)

    14. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by DarkTempes · · Score: 4, Insightful

      While drugs are bad there is also evidence that shitty environmental situations, not just addiction, drive people to drugs in the first place.

      Your "honest person observation" smells an awful lot like what prejudice people say when they want to persecute minorities.
      "Any honest person will tell you that, in their experience, [group] are [lazy/dumb/useless/not REAL people so it's ok that we treat them like shit]"

      Giving drug abusers an even shittier environment to live in by demonizing them isn't going to lead to better outcomes for society.
      Watch this but with a grain of salt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      The point is not that the public should embrace the use of drugs but that the war on drugs is a complete failure and actually doing harm.
      It only makes sense that you should try something else when what you're doing isn't working.

      For example, we could legalize marijuana and decriminalize other drugs and use the income from taxes on marijuana to fund education to prevent abuse and social programs to help abusers get back on their feet and be proud of themselves and break their addiction (and, possibly more importantly, their need for their addiction.)
      Ideally we'd try lots of different methods of helping people and use studies to see which methods are actually effective and worth continued funding.

      So, we wouldn't be wasting taxes on law enforcement and prison sentences for abusers, we'd hopefully undercut the black market and cut down on drug related crime, it would potential be self-funding (the best kind of taxation), and people might actually get help instead of being treated like scum.

      I don't have any ideas for what to do about drug dealers who can no longer make a profit selling drugs, though. It'd suck to collapse that economy and drive them to a worse crime.

      And honestly, we already tax alcohol and tobacco and I have to wonder where all of that money is going. It seems to me if 100% of that were going to education and social programs for drug abusers (including alcohol and tobacco) then we'd probably be in a lot better place.

    15. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by umghhh · · Score: 1

      That is what justice system is there for - to prevent crime against others. If you harm yourself only it is only your problem.
      What is there that you do not understand?

    16. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by umghhh · · Score: 1

      I like your thinking yet I seriously doubt that politicians and bankers that pay them would agree to change the current practice to their disadvantage.

    17. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are 30000+ people waiting for a remedy because a lab randomized evidence. Do they wait the decades it would take to overturn the laws or is their problem fixed now?

      Absolutely keep fighting the long battle to remove the laws but don't force these people to wait.

    18. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      The problem isn't solved.

      There are still thousands of people that have criminal records associated with them as a direct result of bullshit this person lied about.

      Even if you get that 'removed' from their record, its still there, it doesn't actually go away and it will follow them for the rest of their lives. Legalizing drugs doesn't help them in any way shape or form.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    19. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the United States, the Congress is prohibited from passing ex post facto laws by clause 3 of Article I, Section 9 of the United States Constitution. The states are prohibited from passing ex post facto laws by clause 1 of Article I, Section 10.

    20. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by ClickOnThis · · Score: 1

      In the United States, the Congress is prohibited from passing ex post facto laws by clause 3 of Article I, Section 9 of the United States Constitution. The states are prohibited from passing ex post facto laws by clause 1 of Article I, Section 10.

      Correct. However, I think the OP misspoke. S/he was really proposing that we repeal laws, not pass them. IANAL, but I think that can be done ex post facto.

      --
      If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
    21. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 1

      Just pass some retroactive laws legalizing drug use. Problem solved.

      Except that would mean showing the world terrorism works to achieve desired ends.

    22. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by spauldo · · Score: 1

      The point is not that the public should embrace the use of drugs but that the war on drugs is a complete failure and actually doing harm.
      It only makes sense that you should try something else when what you're doing isn't working.

      Yep. Unfortunately, there's a lot more to it.

      First off, there are of course the people who benefit from the current system. The criminal justice system is huge, and there are a lot of people and companies that suck on that teat.

      Second, decriminalization is "soft on crime." That's political suicide in many parts of the country.

      Third, a lot of conservative types support the war on drugs and long prison sentences. Those play well with the Republican base.

      Also:

      For example, we could legalize marijuana and decriminalize other drugs and use the income from taxes on marijuana to fund education to prevent abuse and social programs to help abusers get back on their feet and be proud of themselves and break their addiction (and, possibly more importantly, their need for their addiction.)

      Ideally we'd try lots of different methods of helping people and use studies to see which methods are actually effective and worth continued funding.

      You used the words "social programs." It doesn't matter how it's funded, it'll be classified as "socialism." Most Americans have a dim idea of what socialism actually is, but they know they hate it. Once the s-bomb is dropped, you've lost a lot of support.

      I don't have any ideas for what to do about drug dealers who can no longer make a profit selling drugs, though. It'd suck to collapse that economy and drive them to a worse crime.

      I don't know much about the larger drug network, but I do know a few small time dealers. The ones that don't already have regular jobs would probably just join the regular workforce. That's completely anecdotal, though.

      And honestly, we already tax alcohol and tobacco and I have to wonder where all of that money is going.

      I'm willing to bet it goes in the general fund.

      --
      Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach either, do tech support.
    23. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by DarkTempes · · Score: 1

      It really is bizarre that our society is completely fine with criminalizing minor activities and then taking away someone's rights and freedoms while paying to house and feed them.

      But any government program that tries to help house or feed or improve the life of a non-criminal is considered a waste of money and some sort of "Nanny State" attack on society and will lead to a totalitarian communist government and the complete erosion of our rights and freedoms.

      Or how people can be against gun licenses when most Americans require a car to work and survive and have no issue with passing a driving test, renewing their license, and dealing with car titles/inspections/license plates. Guns are weapons and we regulate transportation more than them.

      I really wonder how a psychiatrist would diagnose the two major political parties. They seem quite insane to me.

    24. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are 30000+ people waiting for a remedy because a lab randomized evidence. Do they wait the decades it would take to overturn the laws or is their problem fixed now?

      Absolutely keep fighting the long battle to remove the laws but don't force these people to wait.

      Good point, but we should consider that drug use is common.
      Most, but obviously not all, of the 60,000 samples and 34,000 cases would have actually been illegal drugs.
      I doubt that those people who were actually guilty would be outraged at their justified arrest or would seek redress for being convicted while guilty.

      Also from the linked article:
      "Over her nine year career at the William A Hinton State Lab in Jamaica Plain the defendant, Annie Dookhan, tested about 60,000 samples involved in roughly 34,000 criminal cases. More than 1140 defendants have been incarcerated as a result of Dookhan’s work and those cases are now in doubt, says Terrel Harris, spokesperson for the Massachusetts Executive Office of Public Safety and Security."

      I doubt that the 1140 number is accurate. Is that only cases that went to trial? Almost everyone plea-bargains because they actually are guilty, and some plea-bargain to get a minimum sentence or a time-served sentence just so they can go home.
      I find it unlikely that out of 34,000 cases they only got 1140 total convictions, so I suspect the actual number of influenced cases would be much higher.

      One thing missing from the linked articles that I'm curious about is what was the positive vs the negative test results. How far from the norm was her positive/negative ratio? Had she found that ALL samples tested positive for drugs, that should have been an instant red flag.
      If not 100% positive, how many guilty walked from false negatives? That does impact the rest of us.

    25. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the United States, the Congress is prohibited from passing ex post facto laws by clause 3 of Article I, Section 9 of the United States Constitution. The states are prohibited from passing ex post facto laws by clause 1 of Article I, Section 10.

      the courts have generally held that retroactive amnesty is OK, such as when death sentences were wholesale changed to life imprisonment.

    26. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ahh shut the fuck up you philistine

    27. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... try something else when what you're doing isn't working.

      The first war on drugs, the prohibition, didn't work but the government didn't lose the 'war footing' mentality. They channeled their war into a subset of the population. For a long time that looked good. But as society fractured into disadvantaged groups, undoing the social reforms of the 1960s, and pro-drug groups (celebrities and the nouveau riche), the number of people using drugs increased rapidly. The US government is escalating the war to fight the whole population, thereby causing massive collateral damage.

      ... who can no longer make a profit selling drugs ...

      If there's no profit there will be no drug supply. No businessman is going to work for free so the profit will always exist, it just won't be protected by the monopoly created by the war on drugs.

      ... to collapse that economy ...

      Police departments, bail bondsmen and jails also depend on the insane spending provided by the war on drugs.

      ... drive them to a worse crime.

      We don't say legalizing prostitution causes worse crimes. Drug dealers commit crimes as an expense of owning a monopoly. When their monopolistic power is gone, so is the motivation to commit crimes.

      At the basic level, drug dealers aren't forcing people to take their drugs. They're are responding to the money offered by addicts for feeding their addiction. Yes, drug consumption and addiction is a vicious circle: Which is what needs to be addressed. Past experience suggests putting an addict through a detox program isn't enough. There's plenty of anecdotal evidence that ex-addicts returning to a neighbourhood and friends involved in the drug culture causes further addiction. This is why city planners try to break-up slum neighbourhoods. But re-location doesn't allow or encourage ex-addicts participation in the community. Nor does it stop high unemployment, mental illness, illiteracy, or single-parent families. The real result is enlarging a drug dealer's monopoly. Social engineering will not work while the basic motivations for drug use and drug dealers remain.

    28. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 0
      Go fuck yourself you self-righteous, and yet - phenomenally enough, equally clueless - douchebag.

      "Yes, it's just like alcohol"

      Just admit that you are ignorant, with no actual experience with the matters you purport to understand well enough to judge those who actually do have experience, and then go FOAD. Seriuosly.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    29. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      "And what do you expect these people to do then? Magically stop using drugs and go back to being productive individuals? "

      Your highly ignorant premise, that people who use drugs aren't productive, has been proved wrong empirically 1000 times over.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    30. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      Well, ladies and gentleman, I submit for your consideration my new chemical free online drug test. This idiot is clearly fucked up on some kind of drug.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    31. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      So what's your problem, exactly, with what I said? You obviously can't string a coherent thought together well enough to address the substance of the matter, only to hurl invective. That's usually a sign that the person bitching knows the person they're lamely countering with low-brow ad hominem is actually correct. As you know I am. Otherwise you'd be telling me that people who are hooked on crystal meth or on major opiates aren't in any way impacted, and don't ever reach the point where other people get to pay to keep them alive and fix their wreckage, right? Please, do illuminate the subject with your examples of fine hardworking meth heads who are and remain completely self-sufficient, including pulling their own weight on food, housing, and health care. I'd love to hear all about it.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    32. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      And what do you expect these people to do then?

      We're talking about the GP's absurd contention that there's no real evidence that spending your life on things like, say, crystal meth, does anything to your cognitive abilities. The implication is that if we just left those people alone, everything would work out just fine. It doesn't work out just fine. Those people spend a short period of what's left of their life swirling the cognitive toilet while being kept alive and fed through crime or through money taken from other people by the government to fee and house them. All so that people like the GP can give the would-be meth addict some cover, and set them up for giving that drug a little test drive because, you know, it's all just a myth that it's a life destroying misery. And that people who say it's destructive are just cherry picking the dumb people when they point that out. You know, and I know, that that's complete BS.

      But if someone who is NOT currently using meth, and thus not hooked on it, is sitting there thinking about whether their best friend (whose teeth are falling out) is really on to something about how cool it is, maybe if there wasn't a safety net for deciding to recreationally kill yourself over a period of months, and a way to have other people put a roof over your head and food in your mouth even after you've completely lost the ability to think straight and work, the casual culture surrounding the adoption of such drugs would begin to reverse. How many meth users do you personally feel you should feed and house? Or how many do you think I should? If you were sitting there right next to the kid thinking of trying it, and he looked at you and said, "If I can't make it through the next 24 hours after I first try this stuff without becoming addicted, you'll feed me and pay my rent from now on, right?" ... what would you say to that kid?

      This isn't about current addicts "magically" getting off because we suddenly change the rules. It's about countering people like the GP who - for inexplicable reasons - would like to diminish the impact of stupid personal decisions like picking meth as your new hobby, and who are implying that there's nothing really all that bad about it. There is, and you get to pay for it.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    33. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      That is what justice system is there for - to prevent crime against others.

      No, that's what parents are for. The justice system exists to make people who decide to commit crimes pay for that decision. Crime prevention requires a complete police state, with a cop attending to every single action of every person.

      If you harm yourself only it is only your problem.

      Because the people who harm themselves by doing things like taking up crystal meth as their new hobby ... they don't cost you a thing once they turn to the government for food, for a place to live, and for medicare for those few short years they're still functioning? Because when they have no more money or possessions to sell to buy their hobby chemical, the government will use some of your money to buy them more of it? Really?

      What is there that you do not understand?

      You've got that exactly backwards.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    34. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It would also help transforming the current prison system
      We know how negative the prisoner-guard dynamics are
      There is no chance under the current system of the prisoners leaving "reformed" after the sentence is served
      The only time that society truly benefit is when someone that is clearly incapable of living without causing harm to society is locked for life, and even that is debatable because if there is such individual, it looks to me more like a mental patient that a common criminal

      I imagine prisons more like self sustained pastoral communities like convents
      Run like the old monasteries by monks with an strict ethical bias and Buddhist teaching the prisoners the code of conduct respect for life self restrain and non violence (leaving religion out of the system and up to each prisoner preference and focusing in the ethics)
      Some psychologists to monitor the prisoners and the prison dynamics
      Plenty of meditation and mental exercises and no physical exercise whatsoever other than the physical labour needed to run the community
      The length of the sentence should be based as much or maybe more on the ability of the prisoners showing their ability to live with others and to promote harmony in the community than on whatever number of years a judge thinks they deserve and because of this it will be in the prisoners interest to self reinforce the code of conduct
      security forces only those necessary and would keep them mostly away from communing with the prisoners to avoid prisoner-guard kind of dynamics developing
      Because a large part of the prison population come from low income broken homes, low education and social problems, whatever the outcome, this type of institution would greatly benefit them

      Because the model is based on a self sustained low maintenance type of monastery it should be cheaper to run than the current dreadfully administrative monster making machines that we call prisons today

      (hell even cheaper if we did actually propose this to friars and Buddhist monks they probably do it for free)

    35. Re:Simple way to 'repair' 'damage' by houghi · · Score: 1

      While drugs are bad

      Hold it right there. This is not the case. Basicaly they are bad because they are illegal. If they were not ilegal, the consequences of using them would not be as bad.

      Yes; there are cases of drug abuse. That is bad. It is also clear that that is bad because of the word 'abuse'.

      And those drug dealers can become legal sales people. OK, not all of them, but still.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
  5. Diversity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is a problem with cultural insensitivity. East Aisan culture highly values a set of business ethics that almost mandates behavior like Dookhan has shown. We need to be more sensitive and show understanding for these people who do things that appear to the rest of us (who are from a different culture) to be lying and cheating. It's just business.

    1. Re:Diversity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stow the PC crap, it's killing our society. Enough is enough, the rot needs to be excised, and it is irrelevant if people feel offended.

    2. Re:Diversity by moosehooey · · Score: 1

      Obviously you're one of those people who doesn't recognize sarcasm...

    3. Re:Diversity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stow the PC crap, it's killing our society. Enough is enough, the rot needs to be excised, and it is irrelevant if people feel offended.

      Weird.
      How can you be so stupid that you could so completely misunderstand the post, and yet be able to type at all?
      Do I need to explain it to you?

    4. Re:Diversity by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      At first I thought I detected it, but a second test showed that there were less than 50 PPM in the sample.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  6. Lazy defense lawyers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    A decent defense lawyer would have had an independent lab retest the samples.

    1. Re:Lazy defense lawyers by Streetlight · · Score: 1

      If I read the original post correctly, samples were mixed up, not tested, etc. Who knows what other problems there are with stored samples if they even exist any more. I wouldn't be surprised if they're not mislabeled and contaminated with who knows what. Any retesting of the samples would likely be totally unreliable.

      --
      In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
    2. Re:Lazy defense lawyers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some of those mixed samples might have been used to cover her lab partner's drug use.

    3. Re:Lazy defense lawyers by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Who pays? Most people have to struggle to afford even a basic defense lawyer. If you don't see that as a problem, then you are a part of the problem.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  7. Up The Ladder by magusxxx · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And where was her boss during all of this? Did he give her raises by checking her performance or her conviction rate?

    --
    Care killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back.
    1. Re:Up The Ladder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Read TFA, He resigned because he knew he should have been accountable for her actions.

    2. Re:Up The Ladder by cbhacking · · Score: 1

      He got fired... for letting her carry on, "testing" thousands more samples than her colleagues each year, for nine years.

      So, on the one hand, at least he (and several other people above her) got the axe.
      On the other hand, NINE YEARS?!? What the HELL, people?

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
    3. Re:Up The Ladder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course it went on for nine years.
      There's a lot of money to be made in a successful conviction.

      An entire private industry hinges on getting as many people 'into the system' as possible.

      Do you honestly for a second believe there were no 'incentives' to let her carry on?

  8. meme.jpg by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why not both?

    Yeah, she should be nailed to a raft by her ears and set adrift on the ocean.

    But we should have a system of justice that isn't so prone to corruption by way of weak oversight.

  9. Re: Witness make an example by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sometimes an example needs to be made. Solitary for life. Civil forfeiture of all assets and all assets of her boss! An example to be the first page of the lab manual.

  10. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  11. Re:Beyond reasonable doubt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And then you will have a huge number of cases counter-suing for the prison time served.

  12. Like financial systems, audit labs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Take random samples from one lab and have them retested at another lab. Mistakes will be borne out.

    1. Re:Like financial systems, audit labs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Like financial systems"? Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but have you seen the prosecution track record for crimes the bankers have committed over the past decade or two? It's effectively 0. They don't even see the inside of a court room except for Iceland, which is the only country that handled things properly.

    2. Re:Like financial systems, audit labs by tmosley · · Score: 2

      That would be good to root out random error, but this isn't random, it's biased. The state is paying for these tests, and the state wants a conviction, so, surprise surprise, they get the conviction.

    3. Re:Like financial systems, audit labs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      sure. thats the root problem. what confuses me as what motivates the state to incarcerate people for
      dubious reasons.

      is it just because they dont want to be perceived as being weak on crime? is that really where
      most elections lie?

      because as a body they ascribe to the police culture of binning people into citizens and perpetrators?

      because somehow the success of the state attorney's office is tied to its conviction rate?

          - legitimately confused

    4. Re:Like financial systems, audit labs by tmosley · · Score: 1

      "is it just because they dont want to be perceived as being weak on crime?"

      That is exactly it. Politics is a game of one upsmanship. If you EVER say that we should go easier on criminals, you lose the election to the political version of the internet tough guy. Then you serve 30 years in prison for having a fucking joint.

  13. Re:Beyond reasonable doubt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And then you will have a huge number of cases counter-suing for the prison time served.

    And what sort of problem do you have with that?

    Also, the Law Enforcement bureaux should have to return any confiscated property with a suitable rental fee for the time it was used. If they can't return the actual property (maybe they sold a house/car/boat/whatever), then reasonable compensation should be paid. By "reasonable" I mean enough to replace said item with one of similar quality to the item at the time it was confiscated. For currency (which they possibly spent on "toys"), it would mean return of the currency confiscated with suitable inflation, such that it represents the same proportion of GDP per person as it did when it was confiscated.

  14. What is this story about? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The article directives only one individual at one lab.

    What are the others labs, and in what way are things worse?

    The reason we have courts is because law enforcement can be incompetent, misguided, corrupt, or just plain evil.

    It's been that way for eternity. The founding fathers debated this at great length, to give us the system we have today.

    If you can think up a better system, then let's hear it.

  15. SOO much crime lab fraud... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  16. Re:Beyond reasonable doubt by tmosley · · Score: 2

    Not pardoned, but their conviction should be thrown out.

    And the entire legal system of Massachusetts should be dismantled and rebuilt from the ground up, firing EVERYONE who was anything higher than a mid-level manager.

    Although honestly, this travesty of justice makes me think that even more drastic action is needed. I'm thinking we release all non-violent prisoners and hold a constitutional convention. The system is fucked up in a fundamental way, and we need to rebuild it so that it isn't.

  17. Re:Beyond reasonable doubt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In 24 states the amount you'll be able to sue for is $0. In many other states the amount is limited (e.g.: California - $100/day) and reduced further or eliminated if you did anything contributing towards your imprisonment (e.g.: Accepted that plea because even though you were innocent you didn't want that lethal injection).

  18. There should be redundancy in these tests by JoeyRox · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Seems to me that something as important as evidence testing should be carried out by at least two separate, independent labs. The extra costs are significant but less so than the ramifications of false results being introduced into the process (intentional or not)

    1. Re:There should be redundancy in these tests by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This would have to be set up very carefully. Even with two labs there is a lot of room in the process for cheating. And even if there isn't any cheating, there is the possibility that the two labs would come to different conclusions honestly, due to the inherent messiness of most criminal matters.

    2. Re:There should be redundancy in these tests by brxndxn · · Score: 1

      How about.. 'guilty' tests need to be verified by an independent lab..

      --
      --- We need more Ron Paul!
    3. Re:There should be redundancy in these tests by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      Who is going to pay for that? The police, who will stop sending samples and money to the lab that tells them "You're wrong" too often?

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    4. Re:There should be redundancy in these tests by Cassini2 · · Score: 2

      Have the crime lab test a series of random samples periodically. Get random objects from the police department or the prosecutor's office. If any come back positive, something is going on. Better quality control techniques would vary the amount of drugs (or DNA) on the object and this would show how accurate and reproducible the lab's technique is at detecting it.

      A big problem in these cases is that no quality control is being done whatsoever!

    5. Re:There should be redundancy in these tests by careysub · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ...And even if there isn't any cheating, there is the possibility that the two labs would come to different conclusions honestly, due to the inherent messiness of most criminal matters.

      You cite that like it is a problem with double checking results. No, that is the very feature we wish to implement. It two labs come to different conclusions, that throws them both into doubt - and then additional checking must be initiated to resolve the discrepancies. If a repeatable result is not possible, then it is not evidence. Period.

      --
      Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    6. Re:There should be redundancy in these tests by careysub · · Score: 1

      Who is going to pay for that? The police, who will stop sending samples and money to the lab that tells them "You're wrong" too often?

      Who is paying to lock people up for years? Compared to that cost lab tests are trivial.

      The police should have no say about the labs. These should be certified and run by professionals, with quality control procedures in place (blind test samples in the test stream, etc.), with regular reviews. You know, like real labs. "Police labs" are not real labs.

      --
      Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    7. Re:There should be redundancy in these tests by sjames · · Score: 1

      In an ideal world, the DA if he wants the evidence to hold any water.

  19. Re: Witness make an example by laurencetux · · Score: 2

    no Gen Pop and make sure EVERYBODY knows who she is.

    oh and use the assets forfeiture to pay the lost income of the persons jailed in error

  20. It's not just the criminal justice system. by aussersterne · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The civil justice system is just as big a mess, and for the same reason as TFA implies. Strangely absent from both systems are the victims and the accused, the petitioners and the respondents, the actual citizens that the system purportedly serves.

    Instead, both parties touch the system only at its very edge. Their actual cases happen more or less without them, winding their way through an impossibly large-scale system full of paid actors whose jobs, practically speaking, at the level of everyday experience, are not to think about the parties in the case, but to perform the same particularistic tasks day after day in massive volumes before handing things off to other paid actors in a massive division of labor.

    It's a kind of assembly line or factory for legal activity and paperwork production. The complete details of any single case, civil or criminal, are not known by anyone within the system—even the judges, commissioners, and magistrates that hear them—even though the actual parties to the case know their own stories inside and out. There is no facility or room within the system for its paid actors to actually get to know a case, through either party's eyes. Instead, each professional focuses only on the tiny fragment of each case that they are responsible for before handing it off to the next professional.

    There is essentially no oversight for any part of the system, and even if there was, plausible deniability is huge, since each professional knows and interacts with only the tiniest part of each case, yet most legal statues offer recourse only if poor or unprofessional practice are more likely than not to have actually altered the final outcomes of this division of labor involving many months, dozens or hundreds of specialists, and a significant degree of uncertainty due to the vagaries of interaction and logistics.

    It is a forest-for-trees problem to the Nth power, but it's difficult to see any way to address it; to be just, the law needs to be well-documented, clear and explicit, and to have nuance and detail. This necessarily makes it large and complex. That implies the need for professionals that have been trained in it. But a professional that dedicates their life to law must be able to make a living. Most individuals cannot afford to pay an entire salary to a legal professional, much less the many that must work on a given case due to the complexity of the law, and thus, they cannot expect these professionals to dedicate themselves to a single case. Instead, the costs of the professionals' salaries must be shared amongst literally many thousands of victims, accused, petitioners, and respondents, meaning that the professionals must limit their consumption of case details to just those in which they specialize, or face mountains of information with which they can't possibly cope and the consumption of which would impact their ability to do the job in which they specialize.

    As a result, for the average citizen, bringing a case or participating in a case is like playing a giant, almost comically huge game of Plinko. The case enters at one end of the machine and knocks about between pegs endlessly and seemingly at random, well out of their reach, for what seems like ages, while they stand by, breathless and helpless. At the end, the case exits somewhere, with some sort of decision, but the relationship between its final disposition and its initial circumstances are completely unpredictable and due to the nature of the machine, and it's difficult to argue that any part of the game machine is "broken" most of the time—a peg in the machine has to be severely affected (i.e. missing, malformed, completely bent) for such a claim to be viable. Minor variances throughout may influence outcomes for a very long time without being detectable, even under scrutiny. And for the most part, there is no budget, much less any avenue even for the funding and organization of a program of scrutiny.

    --
    STOP . AMERICA . NOW
    1. Re: It's not just the criminal justice system. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree with your argument. One additional point to add. Money. Your perspective is correct for the average person, but if you realize that the name of the game is to harass, delay, and cost the system money then you can alter the results. This is true for everything from a traffic infraction to a murder charge. In the end there is always a financial calculation by the judge and or prosecutor. The law does not apply equally to all, and in that case we should consider the law invalid as a method of punishment. Law can only be a pillar of society and worthy of respect by citizens if it's enforced impartially.

    2. Re:It's not just the criminal justice system. by Comen · · Score: 2

      The first time I got drug tested by a job I was trying to get it was in a small doctors office, years later when I had to do the same thing again for another job it was in a drug testing facility that tests hundreds of people all the time like herding cattle.
      Testing companies have convinced employers that you can not afford to NOT test your employees, it could make you look bad in the press and cause bigger issues later.
      It is all a bunch a bullshit and they need to leave people allot, stop wasting money on testing everyone, that even goes for people on well fair as far as I am concerned it is a waste of money and a invasion of privacy.

    3. Re:It's not just the criminal justice system. by CrashNBrn · · Score: 1

      Nothing about "The Law" should be privatized. If laywers were just another facet of the overall court system - perhaps businesses might retain lawyers for corporate|business law --- the rest would be for the people, by the people. I think you would even do away with "Ambulance chasers" in that type of system.

      Of course, I don't believe anything in the current US Justice system can be fixed until the prisons are no longer run by for-profit organizations.

    4. Re:It's not just the criminal justice system. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is all a bunch a bullshit and they need to leave people allot

      I would agree, except for the fact that your company will go belly-up if they end up getting sued for a wrongful death associated with an employee that had issues that would have been caught by a background check or drug test. In civil courts, it's assumed that companies *need* to do such things as "due diligence". When they don't do such things, they get their asses handed to them. It's also why it's becoming the norm for companies to longer support employees handling contact for work references. People have been able to successfully sue the previous company for liabilities when the previous company released details about their employment they would have rather kept secret.

      Ain't nobody got time for that. Thus, your complete nonsense of a work environment.

  21. Why blame her. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The post said that " the state of Massachusetts still can't figure out how to repair the damage SHE wrought almost single-handedly."

    How about blaming the state of Massachusetts for assigning a level of confidence and faith to her judgments that were in no way justified. The state wanted to get convictions to increase the profits for the political class.That is what she gave them. Now the state is saying they had no idea. I call bullshit. I mean If I give a monkey a gun and tell it to fight terrorists and it latter turns out that the monkey not only didn't do a good job of defending the country against terrorists, but it actually killed so called innocents. Is the monkey ultimately to blame or should I blame myself for giving a gun to a monkey and telling it to fight terrorists. Of coarse I am referring to George Bush and the war we went along with to get us out of our collective boredom. but the point remains. The blame always falls to the lowest ranking individuals and those at top say. Gosh we had no idea. We should write some more laws to keep this thing from happening again.

    A fish rots from it's head not from the tail.

  22. What does Mass. Mean... by Streetlight · · Score: 1

    What do they mean, "can't figure out how to repair the damage." This is total nonsense. It's pretty easy to figure out what to do but likly complicated in execution. Everyone that was convicted on the basis of any test performed by the crime lab should have their record cleared and if still incarcerated, released. Next, compensation for any lost income, with interest, should be paid, including legal fees. For those who lost a job or could not get a job because of a phony criminal record should likewise be compensated. Folks who were brought to trial or otherwise inconvenienced but not convicted should also be compensated. It's going to be hard to figure compensation for other kinds of damage to people such as psychological damage, broken marriages, etc. Now, some truly guilty who may or may not have been convicted will benefit from this process, but that's better than not being fair to those unfairly treated. Note, I wrote that persons convicted on the basis of a lab test should be cleared but for some cases other evidence may have been more important for prosecution.

    --
    In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
    1. Re:What does Mass. Mean... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Note, I wrote that persons convicted on the basis of a lab test should be cleared but for some cases other evidence may have been more important for prosecution.

      Juries and judges don't always say, "because of lab test #351 we found them guilty"... so you want a re-trial for all cases?

    2. Re:What does Mass. Mean... by umghhh · · Score: 1

      What about people that accepted the p. bargain which legally means that admitted that they committed the crime they were charged with which I turn means that the screwed evidence is of no value for the actual conviction. Nicely fucked up system of justice. European one is not all that faultless either but so much of a fuckup that it qualifies to be called royal one, is a rare situation and this is systemic so we are not talking about mistakes but regularly biased activity.This whole bargain shit is screwed on so many levels that I actually doubt that any justice system allowing it can be considered just and this before we even consider how fucked up certain areas of justice in US are (war on drugs).
      12 angry men - my arse.

    3. Re:What does Mass. Mean... by Streetlight · · Score: 1

      In the case of a plea bargain there's the option of executive pardon, i.e., the governor can grant the pardon and have the record cleared. Often the plea bargain is accepted by the accused to reduce sentence and or fine for all kinds of reasons and not because they did the deed, including legal costs. If there's a cost-benefit advantage to the accused for the plea as opposed to the disadvantage of conviction folks may take the plea bargain even though they really know they're not guilty. I mean, like, in a capital crime, getting out of the possibility of a death sentence vs. life, well, it depends on your point of view.

      --
      In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
    4. Re:What does Mass. Mean... by Fnord666 · · Score: 1

      Everyone that was convicted on the basis of any test performed by the crime lab should have their record cleared and if still incarcerated, released.

      The first thing that you do is redo the lab work and only worry about the cases where the results differ.

      --
      'The tyrant will always find pretext for his tyranny.' - Aesop's Fables
    5. Re:What does Mass. Mean... by Streetlight · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure the samples are reliably labeled or even exist. According to the original post, the samples were mixed up. One probably can't be sure the samples represent reliably what they're alleged to represent.

      --
      In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
  23. "costs are significant but..." by aussersterne · · Score: 1

    This is not an easy "but." Most cases generate aggregate billing across all facets of the case at a rate of five or six figures monthly, and it is already easy to make the claim that the finance limits in every case are the most direct limits on just outcomes.

    Who is going to pay the significant costs? And at the expense of what other part of the case that might have had them instead? There are many victims and defendants that would argue that the first thing that ought to be paid for is increased time for the prosecutor or defense attorney in a case to pay attention to the case, since in most instances the parties feel as though the attention of their legal representatives is being catastrophically rationed.

    And what about other tests or forms of forensic expertise? Is it better to pay for two tests or, if funds exist, to pay for one of the other forms of corroborating expertise and testing that are otherwise unavailable due to cost constraints?

    Access to truth and law are significantly cost-constrained on both sides. Adding one additional confirming test does little to change this, and just as importantly, it's not clear—given this constraint—just how even this one more test will be paid for without drawing resources from some other dimension of a given case that could be equally important in a system in which it's impossible to predict just which dimensions of a case will be definitive until case post-mortems and debriefings are being carried out.

    --
    STOP . AMERICA . NOW
    1. Re:"costs are significant but..." by Solandri · · Score: 1

      You don't need to double-test everything. When a manufacturer produces 1 million units of a product, they don't test every single one. They pull out about one unit per thousand or one per ten thousand and test the sample. Yes that means some bad units get through. But the sampling will give you a statistical idea what percentage of the units are bad. That gives you a basis for improving the system if the flaw rate is higher than you deem acceptable. And perhaps most relevant to this case, it'll let you see if the flaw rate suddenly spikes. Then you can go hunt down the part or person responsible for the new flaws and fix or replace them.

      "But these are court cases. We need to be 100% sure if the person is guilty, so everything should be double or triple tested!" Nothing in life is 100% sure. We only try criminal cases based on guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. All this would do is change the predominant probability bound from "there is only a 1 in 40 million chance that the accused's DNA would've matched that found at the crime scene by random chance" to "there is only a 1 in 10,000 chance the DNA testing lab made an error."

      Actually, I suspect that's the reason police and prosecutors haven't widely implemented random redundancy testing to detect lab error rates. The statistics behind DNA matches (usually 1 per million to several hundred million) has created a popular belief that DNA tests are infallible, which makes the prosecutor's job a lot easier if they can get a DNA match. The error rate for anything involving people tends to be around 1 in a thousand. If the public learned about that, it would destroy juries' faith in DNA tests and take away one of the prosecutors' best modern tools.

    2. Re:"costs are significant but..." by rl117 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      For QC based on individual items, you might test a small percentage, for batch-based products you might also do tests on every batch as a whole at every stage of its production, plus randomised testing of individual packaged units. I used to work in a QC laboratory, doing testing of both. For some tests, we would also run known standards every time we tested an unknown sample, or set of samples to ensure that the results were always accurate, and always ran both multiple replicates of the standard and multiple replicates of each sample to ensure they were consistent within a certain standard deviation. This guards against calibration errors on the machines and errors on the part of the sample prep or operator. We would occasionally also send samples to external independent laboratories to verify the accuracy of our processes. In this case it wasn't forensics, and there was no need for anonymising the samples. For forensics, I would have hoped that they would also be running anonymous control samples through the pipeline as well (both negative and varying degrees of positive) to validate their process. The technicians don't even need to be aware of it--you simply introduce them as incoming test samples and then validate that the results matched the expectations after testing is done and logged.

  24. End the drug war by fyngyrz · · Score: 5, Insightful

    End the drug war. Free its non-violent victims. That'd be a great start.

    As for anyone convicted due to the person's work, or convicted where this person could have been involved, they should be set free immediately and their records cleared of said convictions.

    The fact that they didn't go right after this simply tells us just how corrupt the system is. "Justice", my aching ass.

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    1. Re:End the drug war by JRV31 · · Score: 2

      If I were on a jury now I could not convict anyone. The actions of the cops and everyone involved in law enforcement amount to reasonable doubt. The legal system in this country (USA) has no creditability.

    2. Re:End the drug war by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      And you'd have to commit perjury to get on a jury, with beliefs like that.

    3. Re:End the drug war by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 1

      End the drug war. Free its non-violent victims. That'd be a great start.

      Yeah...because when someone does something horrendously fucked up ruining the lives of tens of thousands of people in the process the best thing to do is what they wanted you to do to begin with. I'm sure adopting that strategy will really make us "progress" in the future.

    4. Re:End the drug war by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not really. The ask a lot of could ?s not would. Pay very close attention to language in questioning.

      Can you apply the law to the facts? Yes.

      Will I? Depends on the law and the facts.
      Problem is people don't answer the questions asked, rather they volunteer things.

    5. Re:End the drug war by wwalker · · Score: 0

      Also, vote Bernie Sanders: http://feelthebern.org/bernie-...

    6. Re:End the drug war by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Not really. You'd be amazed how low the bar is for jury duty anymore. So few people think it's worth bothering with that they're begging people to just put up with it. They don't bother to ask controversial questions anymore because so many people will jump on it and say crazy stuff just to get kicked out of the jury pool so they can go home.

      I got selected to serve on a jury back in July. I thought the lawyers were idiots for selecting the 13 (12+alternate) least talkative people during the selection process. It took me a while to realize they were just tiptoeing around trying to not ask the meaty questions about juror beliefs. If they had asked whether I believed jury nullification should be a "thing", they would've heard from me, but they didn't ask because they would've heard from everyone. If they had asked whether I could believe the testimony of a sworn officer of the law and take it as factual evidence, they would've heard from me, but they didn't ask because, just a few miles away from Ferguson, Missouri, they would've heard the same lack of faith in the system from everyone.

      As it turns out, it was a civil trial and, on top of that, the officer's testimony was useless anyway (it was about an incident 4 years prior to the trial, and he didn't remember anything because he sees a bajillion of these incidents every week). And when the defendant admits fault in a civil trial, your role as juror is reduced to deciding how much money the defendant should pay the plaintiff.

      A criminal trial would be a bit touchier, but still prone to the same dance-around-the-jury-pool selection process. The judge can give you instructions about what to consider and how the law should be interpreted, but a jury's decision is still pretty much beyond question. How the jury reached that verdict is not something that can be challenged without a lot of trouble. It has to be insanely egregious to be overturned, and then the whole jury is in trouble anyway, even if some individual jurors didn't agree with the final verdict.

      Basically, if a jury wants to decide something a certain way, they are the final arbiter of that decision and nobody can challenge it without a damned good reason.

    7. Re:End the drug war by davester666 · · Score: 1

      yes, you have to be hit with the stupid stick to get on a jury

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    8. Re:End the drug war by AK+Marc · · Score: 3, Informative

      "Do you have any bias against testimony by police officers?" was one of the explicit questions asked when I last served.

    9. Re:End the drug war by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I were on a jury now I could not convict anyone. The actions of the cops and everyone involved in law enforcement amount to reasonable doubt. The legal system in this country (USA) has no creditability.

      And also no one ever commits a crime. The police make it all up, so no one should ever be convicted of anything.

    10. Re:End the drug war by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      "Do you have any bias against testimony by police officers?" was one of the explicit questions asked when I last served. It was one of the few they asked everyone in the court room, before the indicidual selection started. But each area does their selection differently

    11. Re:End the drug war by fyngyrz · · Score: 5, Insightful

      yes, you have to be hit with the stupid stick to get on a jury

      You have to be hit with the asshole stick to not serve. The jury is the very last line of defense from bad law, bad cops, bad lawyers, and bad judges. Not to mention a corrupt and evil prison system, relegation to permanent bottom economic and social classes, loss of family, friends, possessions, job, credit rating, employability...

      The jury is all that's left to us now. The last remaining semblance of justice within the actions of the system has been ashes for years.

      When you refuse to serve, you are abandoning your fellow citizens. Both the ones that are victims of criminals, and the ones that are victims of the governement machine.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    12. Re:End the drug war by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      Okay, and what "horrendously fucked-up" thing is it that "ruined the lives of tens of thousands" the non-violent incarcerated victims of drug charges have done?

      Please elaborate. I'm sure we'd all love to learn WTF you are talking about.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    13. Re: End the drug war by jxander · · Score: 1

      Lab techs aren't police officers. I can distrust the former and still answer your question however I like.

      --
      This signature is false.
    14. Re: End the drug war by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed. For not being a citizen but a permanent resident for the past 35 years, the ability to serve on a jury is the only "citizen right" that I actually would like to have.

    15. Re:End the drug war by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      I don't have any bias against testimony by police officers. I patiently and comfortably sit through any testimony offered, listening carefully. I just don't necessarily believe the police officer. Or anyone else, for that matter. Which is exactly my duty as a juror.

      Many times, the problem isn't police officers (sometimes, of course, it is); sometimes it is the systemic violation of personal freedoms strictly according to law. Sometimes it is the violation of fundamental constitutional rights. Sometimes it is a blanket attempt to bias with character assassination. Sometimes it is ex post facto increase in punishment. Sometimes it is warrantless search and/or seizure. Etc. None of which can you trust the system to catch and correct.

      What it almost never is, is a process of just and fair treatment for the defendant.

      This -- of course -- only applies to the defendants that get into court. Many more are railroaded by the coercive and evil plea-bargain mechanism. There's no helping those people, sad to say.

      Judy duty is probably one of the most important things we can do to correct the system. It's the last bulwark of defense against the system's many improper acts.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    16. Re:End the drug war by fyngyrz · · Score: 2

      When they ask you about jury nullification, I suggest this response:

      "Jury nullification? Would you please define what that is?"

      Either they define it -- and so inform the entire panel of what it is -- or they will move along, in which case all is good -- or they will ask you, one way or another, if you know / don't know what it is, to which an honest answer something along the lines of:

      "I am not certain what you're asking me here."

      That should take care of it, without you getting tossed for cause.

      As for the ethics of it -- jury nullification is a fundamental duty. Anyone who tries to cast you out for your willingness to undertake it is already acting well outside the bounds of the legal system, and you have absolutely no obligation to participate in that activity for them.

      Worst case, you might, not likely but you might, get dragged into chambers to answer the question or hear the explanation. In which case, you know nothing until or unless they tell you.

      The legal system is manifestly corrupt. No need for you to help it along.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    17. Re:End the drug war by kevmeister · · Score: 1

      yes, you have to be hit with the stupid stick to get on a jury

      Or maybe a lawyer does.

      I was selected for a jury when my employer of 35 years was one of the defendants. I just assumed I'd be kicked by the plaintiff at once, but the lawyer in the lung cancer case (asbestos) said I was fine. I'd like to think I'd be unbiased, but...

      The judge had more sense and met in chambers with the attorneys after which another juror and I were sent home. (The other juror had a close business relationship with a different defendant.)

      --
      Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer, Retired
    18. Re: End the drug war by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think he meant the lady that botched the samples. I had to read it 3 times myself. Not well said at all.

    19. Re: End the drug war by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      I hope so. Perhaps the poster will let us know.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    20. Re:End the drug war by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The fact that they didn't go right after this simply tells us just how corrupt the system is. "Justice", my aching ass."

      Indeed. Also, I'd like to know why they're saying she caused this damage "almost singlehandedly". I find it difficult to believe a person would fake THOUSANDS of drug tests on their own. I'd wonder how many people were telling her to do what she did. "We really need to convict this person. Make sure the tests show what we want." All of THOSE people should be in jail next to her.

    21. Re:End the drug war by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Due to n-stage kidney failure, I have to take a pill twice every day to help eliminate fluid build-up in my tissues. This makes me have to urinate every hour to hour and a half. Think the judge would mind stopping the trial 4 or 5 times during an 8 hour period so I could go to the rest room?

      Besides, after the horror stories people see on TV about juries being sequestered for weeks on end, who wants to chance not only losing several weeks pay, but being cut off from the world for weeks? I know that juries being sequestered is a fairly rare thing. To the average person jury duty is not only a huge pain in the ass, but a financial burden, as jury members are not paid nearly as much a day as they would make working for minimum wage.

      BTW I was almost on a jury once, but was dismissed by one of the lawyers. I was disappointed.

    22. Re:End the drug war by Myria · · Score: 2

      You have to be hit with the asshole stick to not serve. The jury is the very last line of defense from bad law, bad cops, bad lawyers, and bad judges.

      People who think rationally, and who have a healthy distrust of the system, get kicked off the jury during voir dire. I would know =/

      --
      "Screw Sun, cross-platform will never work. Let's move on and steal the Java language." - Visual J++ Product Manager
    23. Re:End the drug war by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      That meeting isn't just about the judge. The lawyers can have you dismissed for cause in there, quietly and without fanfare.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    24. Re:End the drug war by Cederic · · Score: 1

      No. I apply the same filter of credibility and context to determine the reliability of police testimony that I would apply to anybody.

      In context I may or may not be able to believe the police.

    25. Re:End the drug war by Whorhay · · Score: 1

      I'm 1 for 2, so it's not 100% that you won't get to serve unless you go out of your way.

    26. Re:End the drug war by HiThere · · Score: 2

      You could have stopped after "People who think rationally". The rest isn't needed. I never expect to actually serve on a jury (though I did once, to my surprise), because as soon as the lawyers notice that you're paying attention to what they say they find some cause to exclude you.

      P.S.: Don't assume it's for your political beliefs. The cases I've observed don't confirm that. The conservatives were as readily kicked off the jury as the liberals if they showed any awareness of rationality rather than emotional reactions. I *guess* that emotional reactions are more predictably manipulable. Cicero certainly thought so.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    27. Re: End the drug war by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      > Lab techs aren't police officers

      Some are. Have you never seen Dexter?

    28. Re:End the drug war by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You want to know the sad part? Having worked for many labs, including UL, this stuff is seriously prevalent all over. Testing and certifications have become a huge joke in this country. You have no idea how often I would see flawed procedures and lies going on, on a constant basis. It's not just killing the justice system, it's killing our industry and it's actually KILLING people! This place is starting to be as corrupt as the Philippines.

    29. Re:End the drug war by JRV31 · · Score: 2

      Did they ask if you have any bias against suspected drug dealers?

    30. Re:End the drug war by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That must why they inform you of jury nullification before every trial. What do you mean they don't ? They reject you if you mention you know about it ? That can't be true.

    31. Re:End the drug war by beastofburdon · · Score: 1

      You raise a very valid point. This is showing a clear bias from the judge against the defendants and for the police.

    32. Re:End the drug war by beastofburdon · · Score: 1

      Yes, and the sentence should be proportional to the damage done. So, in this case it looks like they should all be executed multiple times. Looks like we need to find a necromancer to carry out the punishment.

  25. They won't do it. Feminist police state. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They won't do it.
    They do not care how many men's lives they destroy. They revel in it.
    Otherwise they would not have been passing laws to degrade men's lives since the late 1800s.

    >In the United States, as late as the 1880s most States set the minimum age at 10-12, (in Delaware it was 7 in 1895).[8] Inspired by the "Maiden Tribute" female reformers in the US initiated their own campaign[9] which petitioned legislators to raise the legal minimum age to at least 16, with the ultimate goal to raise the age to 18. The campaign was successful, with almost all states raising the minimum age to 16-18 years by 1920.

    What will be needed is a violent overthrow.
    Remeber: for ever representative on election, 52 percent of the voters are women: they decide every election. Men have no power (It's not like there's one rep position who is elected by men, and a second rep position that is elected by women: the votes are mixed and thus men's votes are trash).

    When the police come to arrest, the proper thing is to fight and die.

  26. Old News, Where is Getting Worse From? by DrTime · · Score: 1

    OK, this story is disturbing and calls in question our whole criminal justice system. But, where is the "getting worse" in the headline from? This is old news. While this may be one case of many, where are the links to others news items making this a trend? Maybe this is an isolated incident. Maybe not. No place on Slashdot as it is.

  27. News? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The linked articles are all at least two years old. Is this still "news"? Is it something that "matters'?

  28. Re:Beyond reasonable doubt by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

    > Anyone convicted on the basis of a test she could have conducted should be pardoned.

    I agree with your sentiment. I see enormous practical difficulties. Sorting out which convictions were "on the basis of a test" is a nightmare, especially when the victims of poor testing plea bargained to a lower sentence. And what of people convicted of violence while in prison, violence that might not have occurred if they'd been free?

  29. System has no interest in error correction by pefisher · · Score: 2

    The Slate article is worth reading. Scandal 1: The lying, conscienceless lab workers and the short (2 and 3 year) prison terms they received for their crimes, compared to those they convicted. Scandal 2: The Massachusetts State Attorney General that knew they were using falsified evidence and covered it up. Scandal 3: Each of the wrongly convicted 30,000 to 60,000 individual prisoners has to hire an attorney to fight for his own release. Which is difficult to do without any sort of income. Scandal 4: The feds have the same problem on the same scale with hair evidence analysis that is based on non-existent science. Scandal 5: Others states have similar issues.

  30. Umm, I'll tell you how to fix it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Drop 35 thousand cases, clear their records and put that Bitch in prison for life.

    1. Re:Umm, I'll tell you how to fix it. by PPH · · Score: 1

      Put that Bitch in prison for 35 thousand consecutive 5 year sentences. Just to keep the prosecutor's track record intact.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  31. Re:Beyond reasonable doubt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And the entire legal system of Massachusetts should be dismantled and rebuilt from the ground up, firing EVERYONE who was anything higher than a mid-level manager.

    Everyone should be fired regardless of their level in the organisation. Why protect middle management? They probably knew exactly about the real situation at the crime lab - criminal acts by their staff. If the forensic analysts' work has been deemed correct according to procedure, those forensic analysts can be hired back at the crime lab or they can simply apply elsewhere.

  32. I know that lab very well by hey! · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've been the Hinton Lab in Jamaica Plain dozens of times. The people I worked with there from the lowest lab tech to the middle managers were outstanding, but they were in the epidemiology end of things. The drug testing lab was segregated on its own floor, and it was walled off like a fortress. But despite that superficial formidability of the drug testing lab, there was clearly a problem: back in 2007 the director of the crime lab resigned because mishandling DNA tests, and before that the lab had been in trouble for processing DNA too slowly. There were rape kits that had been waiting to be processed for eighteen years.

    Yet despite the review of the crime lab's procedures that followed this scandal, Annie Dookhan was able to continue with her antics for an other four years before she was caught. It's odd that she was even hired with her phony degrees because that was the year it came out that Ralph Timperi, the Hinton Lab's overall director, got his PhD from a diploma mill. You'd think that'd trigger a little more scrutiny.

    It all makes the entire Hinton Lab sound like a hot mess, but with the exception of Timperi's phony degree all the problems were in the crime lab, which while located inside the Hinton Lab building was (IIRC) actually overseen by the Massachusetts State Police. Possibly some kind of responsibility thing was going on there. On the public health side of things the people at the state labs were among of the best public employees I've ever dealt with, and I've worked with state and county agencies across the country. It's a shame they've been tainted.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    1. Re:I know that lab very well by PPH · · Score: 1

      There were rape kits that had been waiting to be processed for eighteen years.

      And what do you suppose would hapen if priorities were reversed? If evidence for rape/murder convictions was processed in a timely manner, but drug evidence was shelved for years? The DEA would shit themselves and come after state officials. Because the DEA has nothing better to do than protect its business model and law enforcement market share.

      Close the DEA. Delegate it's duties to the FDA and FBI.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    2. Re:I know that lab very well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Their "coming after" would probably be violent, too.
      Couple of bodies, some drugs magically appear in their personal effects...

      Like a horse head, but DEA style.

    3. Re:I know that lab very well by ToddInSF · · Score: 1

      To me it's most disturbing that the buck has for the most part stopped with her. Sure, what she and some others int eh state crime lab did was fraudulent. But they churned-out results for the Mass State Police. Results that the Mass State Police obviously liked for years. The Mass State Police were responsible for oversight and verification and validation. They get a pass because of one uncomfortable fact that people in the USA are going to need to deal with eventually. The fact that :

      THE POLICE ARE A CRIMINAL CLASS.

  33. Sing it, Bob by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    The trial was a pig circus. He never stood a chance.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    1. Re:Sing it, Bob by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Never had a chance.

    2. Re:Sing it, Bob by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      You're right. My annoyance at getting it wrong is softened by someone actually knowing what I was talking about.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  34. Re:Beyond reasonable doubt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i agree but it wont happen

  35. They can't figure out how to repair the damage? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The answer to repairing the damage is simple.

    They're dealing with DRUGS. Not mother fucking MURDER.

    Release everyone ever convicted because of her lab results.

    The worst thing that happens is some guilty people go free after having served some amount of time... and lots of probably innocent people go free after serving time they shouldn't have served.

  36. Re: Witness make an example by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

    That will happen anyway. Maybe it's time to automate the process so that this type of issue becomes very remote. What's MIT's phone number?

  37. blame the man by DrProton · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I blame management, the prosecutors, and the judges. There was a serious lack of oversight, obviously.

    Let's say she worked 250 days/year, a conservative assumption. That means she was averaging ~ 6E4/(9*250) ~ 27 analyses/day. Assuming 8 hours actual work/day, that means she was completing an analysis roughly every 18 minutes. I'm a physicist. I've worked in a manufacturing facility with a chem lab that analyzed production samples. Hell, sample prep can take 20 minutes! There is no way she was completing these analyses accurately. Her boss must have known something was amiss. A reasonable assumption is that he or she knew so and had wink/nod arrangement with the prosecutors and the courts.

    Our "justice" system is deeply flawed, and this is more evidence of the systemic flaws in it. Kudos to Ms. Lithwick for covering this beat.

    --
    "Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens." - Schiller
    1. Re:blame the man by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Our "justice" system is deeply throated, and this is more evidence of the endemic flaws in it.

      -There, FTFY

    2. Re:blame the man by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... There is no way she was completing these analyses accurately.

      Then there's the American coroner bragging he completed 1800 autopsies last year. Even on the inaccurate cop-drama 'CSI', an autopsy takes 8 hours. This pathologist was disemboweling a corpse and examining every organ in less than 2.5 hours. Another coroner, who findings have never been disproven, claimed he can't perform more than 300 autopsies a year.

      One of the few facts that 'CSI' has correct is, the crime lab is controlled by the police. So who polices the police? That's why there is no control and little accuracy in evidence testing.

  38. She's just a small part of the problem. by GrantRobertson · · Score: 2

    After sitting through a jury selection process, I have figured out that even this, supposedly fair process, is deeply broken in favor of the prosecution. If you are honest and don't agree with an overly harsh mandatory sentencing law, or don't trust cops implicitly, or are willing to accept that you may have one of many biases, which research shows we ALL have; then you will be disqualified.

    Sitting there, observing the people who quickly figured out the exact right things to say to NOT be disqualified, especially after hearing how those same people talked while we were waiting outside of the courtroom, I can't help but believe those are the people who are eager to vote "guilty." I met several others who came to this same conclusion.

    So, once a cop has decided to arrest you, large parts of the system seem to have been "gerrymandered" in a way to drastically increase the probability of conviction. I call it, "The law of secretly intended consequences."

    1. Re:She's just a small part of the problem. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... those are the people who are eager to vote "guilty".

      So the people who like jury duty are the ones who like blaming the defendant: Why aren't there jurors who like excusing the defendant, beating the selection process?

      ... have one of many biases ...

      The purpose of jury selection is finding jurors who can rationally evaluate the evidence. But the job of the juror is more than independent viewing of the facts, it's deciding if the blunt instrument of law should be applied in the chosen manner to the defendant. Any knowledge that contributes to that decision, the untrustworthiness of the police, the politically-driven sentencing laws, the presumption of contaminated/illegal evidence; will create bias against the prosecutor. The prosecutor isn't paid to police himself or the system, he is paid to convince those jurors to say "guilty". So he will chose the biased people supporting his job whenever possible.

      "The law of secretly intended consequences."

      It's secret from the jury who don't know how much priority the judge has given to the prosecution and how much opportunity he has taken from the defense. This courtroom bias is revealed only after the trail. What jurors should be told: There are 2 sides examining the evidence and at every moment, one of them is lying and it's not always the same side.

    2. Re:She's just a small part of the problem. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny, that's the exact opposite of my experience in jury selection.

  39. Slow news day? by frnic · · Score: 1

    We need to rehash all the posts from almost 3 years ago?

  40. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  41. Justice Is A Crime by JimSadler · · Score: 1

    Since all 34,000 cases were tainted have the 34,000 convictions been reversed and the victims made whole? And why the heck is a three year sentence issued for such a radical and harmful criminal in the lab work? Or worse yet does this imply that all lab work done in all law enforcement agencies is suspect and should be a matter for appeals courts for every conviction whether for murder or drug crimes?

  42. Re:Beyond reasonable doubt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're talking about suing the state.

    The crime lab is a private company and has no such protection. Same goes for the prison.

  43. Re:Beyond reasonable doubt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > Anyone convicted on the basis of a test she could have conducted should be pardoned.

    I agree with your sentiment. I see enormous practical difficulties. Sorting out which convictions were "on the basis of a test" is a nightmare, especially when the victims of poor testing plea bargained to a lower sentence. And what of people convicted of violence while in prison, violence that might not have occurred if they'd been free?

    It's easy, not difficult. If she did a test that was submitted as evidence, then void the conviction. If any of those people were convicted of something else while in prison, void that conviction too. Completely and absolutely erase every case where her tests were submitted as evidence, without regard to how the tests were used.

  44. Repair the Damage? by mbone · · Score: 2

    Three years later, the state of Massachusetts still can't figure out how to repair the damage she wrought almost single-handedly.

    I would suggest that the Commonwealth of Massachusetts pay more attention on how to repair the damage their drug laws have wrought (alas, not single handledly); by comparison, Ms Dookhan's damages are a drop in the ocean. I have no doubt that three decades from now the Commonwealth will be arguing over this. As a starter, how about freeing everyone convicted of a marijuana offense, overturning their convictions, and returning (or recompensing) any seized property?

  45. What is the state of the samples? by niftymitch · · Score: 2

    What is the state of the samples?
    If the sample integrity has been maintained retesting is possible.

    My bias is that the war on drugs has become vastly worse than the drugs themselves.
    Given my bias and opinion based cost analysis all drug offenders should be released
    with time served rubber stamps. The war on drugs has caused astounding social
    damage in the US and much of the world. Can we say "war zone" children.
    The WOD money would better be spent on the social and medical needs and consequences.

    Addiction is very serious but once money is removed all of the associated crimes involved in
    the financing of addiction are vastly reduced both domestic and international. Addiction does
    cause harm to individuals. The WOD causes harm to communities and even nations.

    The bigger fish involving truck loads of stuff and money are unlikely to be impacted.

    Crack and meth are so evil that each citizen should be required to cultivate a marijuana
    plant of old green simply to make a less harmful choice available.

    Drug addiction is real and a problem --- the WOD is worse.

    --
    Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
  46. CSI? by rochrist · · Score: 1

    Criminal Scam Implementors?

  47. Or just poor by rsilvergun · · Score: 3, Interesting

    For years I lived paycheck to paycheck (I had 3 major family illnesses hit me all at once, yay). I got called but was working for a company with a jury duty benefit. It only paid 2 weeks, but the trial was only 2 weeks. If I got called for a murder trial I'd have to beg the judge and hope he wasn't an asshole.

    The trouble with juries is they are inherently conservative and right wing because only successful people who've never experienced any hardship can really afford to be on them. Everyone else just googles for how to get out of 'em (or asks around pre-google). That's not by accident. Every major facet of our legal system was built to protect property owners from the unwashed masses...

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:Or just poor by liquid_schwartz · · Score: 3, Informative

      The trouble with juries is they are inherently conservative and right wing because only successful people who've never experienced any hardship can really afford to be on them.

      I'm not sure where you came up with this line of reasoning. Many (most?) people who have lots of jury time available are government employees. Teachers and the like are not generally known as "inherently conservative and right wing". Certainly as a group less so than the private sector people around them.

    2. Re:Or just poor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure where you came up with this line of reasoning. Many (most?) people who have lots of jury time available are government employees. Teachers and the like are not generally known as "inherently conservative and right wing". Certainly as a group less so than the private sector people around them.

      I don't know about the US, but in Australia, teachers are exempt from jury duty, because it would be too disruptive to the class to have a substitute teacher for a few weeks.

  48. Sure it does by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    it just depends on what part of society you're from. If you're in the upper class drug laws are great. They keep the poors out of your neighborhood, schools and parks.

    Let me explain. Almost every poor person at least knows someone who takes drugs. In the absence of access to medical care you're going to self medicate. Now, remember that all our drug laws make you guilty by association. If they find your buddy's pot in your car you still lose your car. That means if you're poor you learn to avoid the police. You especially learn to avoid giving them "probably cause" to search you and your friends. And what better way to give the cops probably cause than by showing up in a neighborhood you obviously can't afford?

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  49. "Your idea is unnecessary" -- jurors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    evidence testing should be carried out by at least two separate, independent labs.

    You'll know that you have successfully persuaded people that evidence needs to be of higher quality, when jurors start acquitting people who only had one lab tech testify against them, but convict those who had two lad techs testify against them.

    As it currently stands, though, it looks like jurors have taken your idea under advisement, and voted against it.

    "I think a single lab test, despite JoeyRox's misgivings, is convincing beyond a reasonable doubt." -- 12/12 jurors

    That's the trouble I have with all these never-ending stories of this kind. It always comes back to us. We The People are the bad guys, because we have all the power and don't give a fuck about anything. We hear made-up evidence and vote guilty. We vote Democrats and Republicans into office, and have those kinds of people make and enforce our laws. Every single time we're asked to contribute to society (and we do need to be asked, because we never, ever do it on our own) we make a mockery of it, or just try to get out of it.

  50. Only three years?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Given the total number of years that innocent people spent in jail because of her she should get something more like Life+.

  51. I beg to differ by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 2
    "Three years later, the state of Massachusetts still can't figure out how to repair the damage she wrought almost single-handedly.

    Single handedly? sorry, she was considered the Go-To Person to test your samples by many DA's in Mass.

    It's ludicrous to think that any person can be the go-to person unless they deliver the results you want - which is a conviction - even if it's forged. DA's are elected, and have you ever seen one that wasn't "Tough on Crime". or bragged about their conviction rate in their election campaigns?

    They knew - they just didn't care.

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  52. The shape being - 0 convictions. Just executions. by denzacar · · Score: 1

    Make false convictions essentially a career ender for everyone in the chain and watch how quick things shape up.

    False positives replaced by wall to wall false negatives out of fear of MAYBE convicting a wrong person, so better safe than sorry... so everyone walks.
    Now watch how quick THAT shapes up into an "unexplainable crime wave" AND a Wild West situation where everyone caters to their own "justice" WHILE cops start shooting people "just in case" cause it was "the only way to be sure".

    Hey... everyone's gonna walk anyway cause everyone in the chain is now afraid that SOMEONE in the chain already made that career ending mistake, causing everyone to end up in jail. Unless...

    You're basically suggesting that an administrative error like a typo that turns Tuttle into Buttle should get a person into more trouble than killing both Buttle and Tuttle.
    After all, it MAY NOT have been your bullets from your gun fired by you that ended up in their brains.
    Maybe someone else made an error while collecting or filing evidence and because they can't find their ass with a map and candle, now EVERYONE in the chain will be hung out to dry?
    Safer for everyone to just mark all evidence as "no match". And let's scrub the database, just in case.
    Phew! That was a close one. What's next? Jill Layton getting shot, AGAIN?!
    See? This is the kind of thing that will end us all one day. Some idiot double-filing something. Better get down to filing and clean up there too.
    Or just burn the whole building and blame it all on terrorists... there being no terrorists, the person to blame won't really exist... and everyone will literally be chasing no one.
    Holy shit, that's brilliant!

    There are reasons why the chain is used as a metaphor for command and management structures where a pyramid or a path or a tree would and could work as well - at a first glance.
    One of them is that a link in a chain can be singled out, reforged, removed or replaced (maybe with more links this time) without throwing the entire chain to scrap iron and replacing it with a new one on account of a single weak link.
    Can't slice off a middle part of the pyramid and add two more levels or reassemble the complete pyramid out of remaining parts.
    Can't just make a new path if the faulty link is a broken bridge or a tunnel.
    Can't cut off a branch, fix it, and put it back on the tree, or just make the tree grow another one, just like the old one.

    And then there's that whole thing where no person should be liable for something someone else did and there being more outcomes to making an error than just "suffer forever" and "go free".

    --
    Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
  53. Niggers did 9/11 by twersk77 · · Score: 0

    Niggers did 9/11

  54. Re: Witness make an example by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

    Actually, so long as the people we hold responsible for the flaws are in fact responsible for them, subjecting them to the "justice" system is, ironically, perfect justice.

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  55. Re:Beyond reasonable doubt by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

    "Anyone convicted on the basis of a test should be pardoned."

    FTFY

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  56. Re:Beyond reasonable doubt by sjames · · Score: 1

    Well, since our judicial system is SUPPOSED to give the benefit of the doubt to defendants, any case touched by either corrupt techs should be presumed to be vacated. If the DA believes there might be a case without the forensic evidence, he may file charges.

  57. Re:Beyond reasonable doubt by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

    > any case touched by either corrupt techs should be presumed to be vacated.

    That presumption is unlikely to be borne out: from what I see of the Jennie Doohan case in MA, few convictions were overturned. Many defendants in drug cases plea bargain to lesser offenses, and I'd expect _none_ of those cases to be revisited, even if the defendant pled out to avoid hash penalties they were likely to receive, especially with federally mandated sentencing guidelines. Some cases doubtless had other evidence or testimony, which may have been _corroborated_ by the tainted forensic analysis, but which prosecutors will have great reasons to claim are valid. And getting such cases re-heard and re-examined is an intense, expensive, and for prosecutors an embarrassing They have strong bureaucratic and professional reasons to avoid any revisiting of these cases.

  58. Re:Beyond reasonable doubt by sjames · · Score: 2

    And that is why I and a growing number of Americans have become increasingly skeptical of the criminal "justice" system in the U.S.

  59. Re: Witness make an example by HiThere · · Score: 1

    While the evidence seems to show she was guilty as charged, do you really believe that her management didn't know or have reason to know?

    --

    I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  60. Re:Beyond reasonable doubt by tmosley · · Score: 1

    I can agree with that. I mainly didn't want to can everyone because there is a lot of expertise at those levels, and the corruption in the system inevitably drips down from the top, or is allowed to continue by those in charge a la The Lucifer Effect.

  61. Scape... somethings... what's the word... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Of course she was the go-to person.
    Well, not when it happened. You can't do stuff like this without authorization and the backing of your bosses.

    But now that the whole scheme's been uncovered, it was all her, alone, the whole time. Bad, bad apple.

    1. Re:Scape... somethings... what's the word... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      But now that the whole scheme's been uncovered, it was all her, alone, the whole time. Bad, bad apple.

      Wink, wink ;^)

      What amazes me is the stupidity of these people. Aside from her giving them the results they wanted most or all of the time, there were some mathematical issues of the number of tests she was doing.

      It was inevitable they would get caught.

      And she was stupid enough to think that when exposed, that she wouldn't be the first person thrown under the bus.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  62. Three years? by Dereck1701 · · Score: 2

    She destroyed the lives of almost certainly hundreds, perhaps thousands of innocent people and all she gets is three years? Our "justice" system is insane, hold up a 7-11 with a toy gun and get thrown jail for longer than that, steal billions from millions of people and you see no time at all. Shoot someone kicking through your front door at 3am (without a badge) and get convicted of murder, shoot an 84 year old grandma in bed (with a badge) and its called an "accident" and left unpunished.

  63. Easily Preventable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That would have been easily prevented by having lab results done by two independent labs and compared; it would cost a little bit more, but would you really put a price tag on justice.

  64. Teachers are in the same boat by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    they can't just leave their class. The days of easy peasy teaching jobs are long gone. At least for grade school teachers. If their kids don't pass the standardized tests their quickly fired. There's only so much the unions can do when a multi-billion dollar industry is out to get you. Subs don't cut it. They don't have the resources or experience (teaching is harder than you think). We're sabotaging them on purpose so we can privatize the whole she-bang and let a lucky few assclowns skim 10-30% off the top.

    So no, the teacher is going to do the same thing: Get out of jury duty. Mission accomplished.

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