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Air Force Hires Civilian Drone Pilots For Combat Patrols (latimes.com)
schwit1 writes: For the first time, civilian pilots and crews now operate what the Air Force calls "combat air patrols," daily round-the-clock flights above areas of military operations to provide video and collect other sensitive intelligence. Civilians are not allowed to pinpoint targets with lasers or fire missiles. They operate only Reapers that provide intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance, known as ISR, said Air Force Gen. Herbert "Hawk" Carlisle, head of Air Combat Command.
If they let civilians use the weapons, they could probably eliminate the deficit.
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Next stop, outsourcing drone pilot
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Next stop, cloud-computed virtualized drone pilot
Next stop, machine-learning drone pilot
After all, if I were at war with the United States, they would be legitimate targets. And presumably, if they didn't wear uniforms and hid among civilians, then US is to blame for any "collateral damage" from bombing civilian centers. After all, there are unlawful combatants hiding among them.
Mother's Basements and other places used for self-imposed isolation exist in all places and probably in all cultures.
The biggest problem is finding people that will follow orders when the penalty for not following orders is lower than it is for a military officer or enlistee. That barrier will probably preclude civilian contractors that have never had military service from performing that job. Don't know about former-military civilian contractors though, they might be better at not flinching, but then there's the legality issues surrounding the ramifications of bad calls where innocent people died, or where someone intentionally does something that kills noncombatants. At least in the past civilian contractors had to be present to do the acts that killed innocents such that the country in which the acts were committed could mount something of an objection. What's the law on a civilian remotely operating a machine in a foreign country that's specifically equipped to kill, using that machine to kill? At least a military member could see prosecution if through the military system of justice, but I don't know how well that would work for civilians.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
Read Geneva conventions.
"Air Force Hires Civilian Drone Pilots For Combat Patrols"
Sounds perfect, I mean, what could possibly go wrong?
Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
Japan has been hiring children to control giants robots for like 20 years.. It's about time.
"Mother's Basements and other places used for self-imposed isolation exist in all places and probably in all cultures. "
That's exactly where I want my air force personnel to come from.
So were the jet pilots angry about drones that they were going to be out of a job, or that their job was going to be given to civilians?
Think about that before you participate in a war.
TFA explicitly points out that the civilians will not be pulling the trigger. They will be used only for Combat Air Patrols (a term that seems just a bit inappropriate) that are for data gathering and surveillance only. The trigger pullers will be active duty military.
The problem, in TFA's eyes is that this represents a slippery slope - how many degrees of separation do you need in a military setting?
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
That's what they train underpaid military types to do. Putting a CIVILian in a COMBAT role - even without guns - is wacky. But this IS the Air Force, where if you were a female trainee you got your fair share at Lackland from your instructors on up.
It will run like any other call center does. Where each team of client support representatives, has a supervisor to handle the difficult problems, military will have supervisor that will take control and shoot.
TFA explicitly points out that the civilians will not be pulling the trigger. They will be used only for Combat Air Patrols (a term that seems just a bit inappropriate) that are for data gathering and surveillance only. The trigger pullers will be active duty military.
The problem, in TFA's eyes is that this represents a slippery slope - how many degrees of separation do you need in a military setting?
IIRC, the air force has about four major protocol points that they follow in order to ensure that drone strikes are legal. One of those is that the person pulling the trigger be military so that you are ensured a direct chain of command, i.e. legal authority to kill others on behalf of the state, (this also ensures they get qualified immunity from lawsuits.)
Dude. 9/11. You don't need a trigger to ram the drone into a target.
civilian contractors why do we use that 'polite term' call them what they really are mercanaries.
Unless there's GPS buffers built-in to the protocol (min/max elevation capacity, hard turns limited, etc), the drone could strike any target by simply crashing into it.
I think that concept was pretty-well hammered into the public's mind after 9/11, yeah?
No sig for you! Come back one year!
Maybe because they don't match the definition of a mercenary?
We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
I think they have the right mindset for this kind of thing. They could give them extra cigarettes for good performance. Prison-industrial-drone complex for America! I'm in a pessimistic mood today.
Korea? The Philippines?
There are places people get paid to level up your pathetic pud. Note all they need is a security clearance.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
some one who works soley for pay? I would think they fit that criteria.
School buses transport future warriors to schools who educate future warriors. Pizza parlors nourish the warriors, their support teams, and future warriors.
The entire economy, certainly the taxed part and much of the underground part, directly and indirectly support a state's ability to wage war.
The entire notion of civilians in a war is an element of propaganda. Reality is far messier than some kind of absurd "legal" strictures about war.
That's sticky mainly due to the Geneva Convention's definitions for the criteria needed for the label. Given that the United States has been a party to the conflicts in which nonmilitary persons have been hired by the US to participate in, they're not mercenaries by the definition that requires Nationals not affiliated with the belligerent nations. Given that they're generally not hired into infantry or other common roles and are usually used for specialty jobs it's hard to argue that their pay is disproportionate. Given that their roles aren't generally infantry, it's even difficult to claim that they take a direct role in fighting the hostilities. Would someone working VIP security that gets into a firefight with a specific group of assassins fall into the same 'direct fighting' role as a soldier in-uniform on a routine patrol?
Based on the need to satisfy several conditions of the 1977 Amendment, Protocol 1, Article 47, it would be difficult to call people in specialized roles mercenaries. It's a challenge applying even one of the several criteria depending on how taking a direct role is interpreted.
Mind you, I don't think that we should employ so many non-military individuals in the military roles in forward-deployed areas, even in things like the laundry or meal production. I believe that other than the medical corps, every individual providing services to combat personnel should themselves be trained as combat personnel and be prepared to take on that role if necessary. I don't want a bunch of laundry workers or mess hall attendants being unable to defend the base because they're civilians, and as civilians have to be defended by the regular military personnel.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
What the hell is a "mercanary", a small songbird that is trained in warfare? You are an idiot; please kill yourself.
That's a hell of a lot of fine print that will be expressly ignored when an enemy starts slaughtering civilians saying they could have been involved in the military chain of command.
You just don't DO THIS for very, or I assumed, very clear reasons of the laws of war.
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
> TFA explicitly points out that the civilians will not be pulling the trigger. They will be used only for Combat Air Patrols (a term that seems just a bit inappropriate) that are for data gathering and surveillance only. The trigger pullers will be active duty military.
i.e. "everything but pull the trigger."
"Hey Bob, I've positioned the drone over some fellow American who has not been tried in any court. Can you press the button?"
"Certainly, Ben. It would be wrong of civilians to actually kill someone. "
"Thank you Bob. Yes, that would be a terrible line for society to cross."
Why wouldn't they claim they are CIA spies even without the mercenaries as a factor?
TWX > Blah Blah Blah
Weasel words
pixelpusher220> That's a hell of a lot of fine print that will be expressly ignored when an enemy starts slaughtering civilians saying they could have been involved in the military chain of command.
Yes. TWX is a brainwashed hypocrite.
Using mercenaries is not a new thing for the US military, especially in "non-combat" roles. Generally they prefer ones that previously had US military service. Dollars to donuts the drone pilots this company has are all ex-military, who mustered out and are now looking at doing their same job for twice the pay with half the oversight.
Our current list of hot-topic enemies do not follow the Geneva conventions and do not make fine distinctions like 'military' vs 'civilian'. If they can get your hands on you, they consider you an enemy combatant even if you are engaged in an entirely innocent pasttime such as tourism or journalism. They have proven over and over again that they won't hesitate to execute civilians if they happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Civilian pilots is what they call the CIA and other members of the intelligence community. Lots of the spy planes of past eras were piloted by "civilians". Sounds to me like an awkward phrasing of "the CIA negotiated some air time in our drones" with the phrasing designed to distract from what's actually happening and instead creating a debate about a completely different topic.
Then again, the intelligence agencies already have plenty of drones and that's no secret, so it's entirely possible I'm wearing too much tin foil.
I suspect most of these civilians are former military who the Air Force couldn't hold on to because of pay, discipline and lifestyle issues. Not that I'm faulting them. As civilians I'm sure their pay is higher than it would be for an equivalent military member. They aren't subject to the UCMJ. Don't have to worry about being arbitrarily transferred to Podunk Idaho or Deathcamp Afghanistan, and while they have to be polite to officers for whom they work, they can't be jailed for calling them a dickwad if it comes to that.
When artillery were first used by nation states, they were also hired out to contractors. (Of course when captured they weren't given the honors of war due soldiers, they were slaughtered. That was the impetus to incorporate them into their respective armies.)
There is nothing new here.
Tracy Johnson
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