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Researchers Create Sodium Battery In Industry Standard "18650" Format (gizmag.com)
Zothecula sends word that a French team has developed a battery using sodium ions in the usual "18650" format. Gizmag reports: "A team of researchers in France has taken a major step towards powering our devices with rechargeable batteries based on an element that is far more abundant and cheaper than lithium. For the first time ever, a battery has been developed using sodium ions in the industry standard "18650" format used in laptop batteries, LED flashlights and the Tesla Model S, among other products."
this idea STINKS
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Pardon me if I use the name-dropping to think lesser of the company that has made the announcement.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
It seems like we're getting announcements about revolutionary world changing never seen before astounding new battery designs every day, but nothing ever comes to market.
Maybe it's time to question what the fuck is wrong with the shitty "journalism" that tries and make huge stories out of nothing.
Don't believe the Li!
but will it fire below .1 safely?
Using sodium ions?
So, they would be (re)charged with "a salt in battery"?
Yeay! Because you know that $7-8/kg for lithium carbonate was really breaking the bank.
I hate to bring up our imminent arrest during your crazy time, but we gotta move.
But not in 18650 format. We have 25kwh of aqueous sodium ion batteries (5000 full cycles and still counting) giving us solar energy at night. Because of the lower voltage per cell, they use a safe sodium salt water electrolyte. G**gle aquion pittsburgh..
I keep old rechargeable batteries around to disprove the notion that there have been no advancements.
#1 Radio Shack NiCad D size battery from the late 1980's. 1.2V 1200 Mah
#2 Energizer NiMh AA size battery from the late 2000's 1.2V 2600 Mah (up to 1.4v when fully charged)
#2 R/C heli Lipo, volume equivalent to C size from post 2010 3.7V 5000 Mah
You do the math.
I knew that power tools and laptops used 18650 cells, which are slightly larger than AA batteries. Given the hype about "Tesla's advanced battery technology", I'm pretty surprised to learn the Tesla battery is also simply 7,000 flashlight batteries.
I see that the Tesla battery pack weighs 1,200 pounds. Reducing weight greatly improves efficiency, handling, braking, and acceleration, meaning lighter weight is all around better. It seems a bit wasteful of weight and materials to have 7,000 metal casings around 7,000 tiny batteries, connected with thousands of connections, rather far fewer larger cells. I'm surprised they don't use perhaps 24 or 100 larger cells instead, thereby eliminating thousands of unnecessary casings and connections.
The most important details: The energy density performance (90Wh/kg) are above the expectations especially considering the excellent cycle life (at least 2.000 charge/discharge cycles). It would also be nice to see voltage drop-off as the battery discharges and expected price, but now I'm getting greedy...
Shooting in the dark here - do the individual batteries make the larger pack more serviceable / recyclable? Packing the lithium into larger solid cells may also create problems with cooling / leak containment, etc. I'm sure there's more than a couple of whitepapers on the the topic out there.
Runaway thermal chain reaction is not fun for lithium batteries. And economy of scale is the operative word to get batteries at car capacity down to a reasonable cost. Millions (billions?) of those batteries are made every year, and you can get them from everywhere.
The idea on many small battery cells is that the standard size makes them available from multiple suppliers, reducing risk, and the gaps between the cells due to the packing fraction provide a conduit for cooling.
Telsa does have a lifecycle plan to refurbish packs from cars for use in the home; at least in the press photos, the home packs are a different form factor, so I wonder if they break up the packs to cull outright broken cells and then reconstitute the good ones into wall units. Since the breakdown is a function of electrode area, having the area in smaller pieces might help with reuse.
"Because Science" is one step from "Because old book". Try "Because of my experiment testing my falsifiable assertion".
I've been hearing a lot lately about this super battery, and that super battery, but I don't see my quadcopter flying any longer than before.
If you want an actual answer instead of just an excuse to bag on Tesla ... Smaller cells have more surface area to dump heat, which is crucial when recharging. In other words, the mass of the casing (which is not large) is actively being used for thermal management. Additionally, in the manufacturing process, smaller cells have a lower reject rate and allow both a much more repairable battery pack than custom cells and improve the performance as cells degrade. The packing density for these cells is pretty good, (85%) and smaller cells allows tailoring to custom shapes, though Tesla doesn't take advantage of that, having roughly rectangular packs.
The "many small batteries" approach is what makes it possible to get a decent charge in a Tesla in around 20 minutes... instead of 80+ hours.
If you charge 7,000 small batteries in parallel you'll do it roughly 1000 times faster than charging seven huge batteries with the same total capacity.
Define "fun". Seems fun to me.
Tesla chose the 18650 battery since they were light (power/weight) and cheap and they could get them in large quantities. They designed the battery pack to sit low under the passenger compartment. This gives the car a very low center of gravity and amazing handling. The battery case is very thin with small mass and the large number of small batteries allows for a liquid temperature management system which is crucial for long life and performance.
I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
In the late 1980s, this technology had in fact been set aside in favor of lithium, whose superiority seemed obvious to all: thanks to a voltage of 3.5 V, lithium in theory provides the most energy.
WTF? Voltage is not a measure of energy. Negative ion generators pump out thousands of volts but output in the order of microamps.
TFA says "its energy density (the quantity of energy that can be stored per kilo of battery) is comparable to certain lithium-ion batteries, such as the Li-ion iron/phosphate battery," which would put it somewhere in the 2000+ mAh range. Sodium certainly sounds like it would be an available resource.
The 18650 form factor is pretty useful. High powered flashlights use them with Cree LED emitters, and they are ubiquitous in e-cig battery mods. Not to mention power packs for rechargeable tools, motorized toy vehicles, and Tesla cars.
Look on Ebay for 18650 flashlight. They are intensely bright little things.
Possibly the oil company that owns the patent on larger batteries won't let them be built?
When I first started looking at standard AA batteries in about 1994 you had your normal Zink-carbon batteries that the good ones would be 1200mAh capacity. There were some premium Alkaline batteries that were 2000mAh. If you wanted rechargeable you were looking at NiCd at about 800mAh.
Fast forward to about 2004. Alkaline batteries at about 2000mAh was standard. Lithium batteries at 3000mAh were around and NiMH had almost completely replaced NiCd at about 2100mAh for good quality ones. Then there is also the proliferation of Li-Ion batteries for other applications. Charge times for rechargeable batteries had come way down.
Today Alkaline batteries are at about 2600mAh, with Lithium still at 3000mAh. NiMH are still in use and the good ones are still at 2100mAh with some "Pro" batteries at 2550mAh. Li-Ion still in great use, but getting smaller while keeping the same amount of power. Charging times have continued to decrease, mostly with new charging technology that can be used on the older batteries as well.
What does the future hold? Well, we have heard about tech for making Li-Ion batteries fully charge in minutes. There is the improvement in sodium batteries. Different chemical combinations of Li-Ion to hold more power.
Why is it not here now? Most new technology takes at least 5 years from announcement of it working, to being able to mass produce it at a decent cost. That is for companies that have lots of money and experience in that specific field. More of an average is 10 years between proof of concept and mass production. 10 years may sound like a long time to people, but in the manufacturing world with new technology, it really isn't that long. Intel runs with a 10 year plan, and they can bring many of their advancements to market in 5 years. Intel is a company with a lot of money and a lot of knowledge about exactly what they do and yet, they still work on basically 10 year plans. Most companies are not as efficient.
Yes many times products will be designed and brought to market in 1 to 2 years, but they usually use existing technology. They use chips, tech, batteries that exist when the product is announced. They already have the full design done, all they need to do is mass produce them, and it still takes 1-2 years. Even though exactly how to mass produce it and all the parts are known. New technology on the other hand is a different beast that there are often problems in figuring out how to mass produce it, or they find out that it can't be mass produced cheaply enough.
The other thing is that you are getting the new technology all the time, you just don't notice it because it is done in an incremental process. The battery has a little more power, it is a little smaller, it charges a little faster. Where if you compare something today to 10 years ago you would notice that the battery stores a lot more power, it is a lot smaller and it charges a lot faster.
Microsoft, Apple, Google, Amazon what's the difference? All steal money from devs and control with walled gardens.
I seem to remember a company called Ceramatec having developed a ceramic membrane that would make domestic sodium sulfur batteries possible by 2010. Fridge sized, 50kWh, long life, about $4k (in 'then' money). Wonder what happened to that? Bought over and buried by big energy? Too convenient for people switching to off-grid renewable sources perhaps? I believe some US states have already made living off grid illegal.
This will amount to nothing. It will never make it to the market. In a few months time, nobody will remember it. Anybody want to bet against me on this?
...about sodium! So we'lll just have to reach them through the rock-n-roll music that the kids seem to like.
It looks like they solved one problem by creating another. If we extract huge amounts of sodium from naturally occurring salts what will become of all those other reactive elements that made up the other part of the salt molecule?
Wouldn't batteries sourced from metallic oxides be better for the environment because the released oxygen (waste) will also compensate for oxygen lost due to all the carbon we have burned and turned into CO2?
It sounds like a precarious business model. Everyone prefers lithium batteries. So long as lithium prices are high enough, you can find a market for cheaper inferior batteries. But high lithium prices will lead to higher lithium production and prices likely coming back down. In building a sodium battery plant, you're gambling on lithium price being sufficiently high most of the time for several decades into the future.
The picture changes if you can make the sodium batteries as good as lithium for at least some market niche, or if your battery plant can easily switch between lithium and sodium (which seems fairly likely.)
Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
Isn't sodium really toxic (not good when exposed to air) and explodes on contact with water (youtube.com has plenty of examples of this)? I wonder how long it would be before a lawyer sues the battery makers after someone opens a battery somewhere near water? Maybe they have taken this into account with the battery design?
You COULD use 7,000 cells at 3.7 volts each in series to get 25,800 volts. As you know, they run at 480V or so - the voltage of 120V lithium ion cells, as I originally said. So no, that's NOT a reason to use hundreds of little batteries rather than 100 much larger ones.
GP is also wrong, the maximum charge rate of lithium ion (in amps) is approximately equal to the capacity of the cell in amp-hours. That is to say, you can charge a lithium ion cell in an hour (plus safety factor) no matter what size it is. Two 500ma cells do NOT charge faster than one 1000ma cell. It takes an hour to charge, regardless of size.
That's simply not true at all. The maximum charge rate of any lithium ion cell, large or small, is about one hour to fully charge (plus a safety factor) . Two 50,00ma cells take exactly the same amount of time to charge as one 10,000ma cell.
I see that the Tesla battery pack weighs 1,200 pounds. Reducing weight greatly improves efficiency, handling, braking, and acceleration, meaning lighter weight is all around better. It seems a bit wasteful of weight and materials to have 7,000 metal casings around 7,000 tiny batteries, connected with thousands of connections, rather far fewer larger cells. I'm surprised they don't use perhaps 24 or 100 larger cells instead, thereby eliminating thousands of unnecessary casings and connections.
There are a number of reasons.
1. 18650 cells are the cheapest per kWh, significantly so.
2. The smaller cell size helps with thermal management. It's easier to deal with the heat from using the batteries the smaller they are. There have been problems with airlines that use larger cells with them catching fire.
3. Power capability is actually higher with smaller cells. For a car with the acceleration of a Model-S, this is important.
4. Due to the amount of R&D into the cell, which is the most common LiIon cell in the world, weight and volume wise it's at least as energy dense as anything else, extra casing or not.
5. The connections aren't actually that big of a deal, most of the batteries are simply end-to-end.
I don't read AC A human right
Guess we won't need to mine asteroids to get "absurdly valuable" minerals, technology always gets better.
The charging comment is only true up to a point. As you get larger solid packs, the surface area doesn't increase as fast as the volume and the insides can get very hot. Thermal management is super critical for many battery types so this is a major limitation.
With a small cylindrical battery, the empty packing space between the cells provides a perfect channel for cooling.
... That tech is harder and some development do not pan out of the lab.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salar_de_Uyuni
Why are you shifting the goalposts to a price that a battery manufacturer buying by the tonne would never pay? Maybe you could just do a google search like this:
http://www.google.com/search?q=lithium+price+per+tonne
lolwut.. What the fuck has this got to do with batteries?
The S is a great example of the 18650. What's the issue?
Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
a number of similar articles, items, or devices arranged, connected, or used together
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/battery/
See subject & this stupid -> "yes I've seen the code & yes it is safe." FROM http://forum.hosts-file.net/vi... where a real security pro went over it in the past and current builds.
* You FAIL loser...
APK
P.S.=> Where's YOUR CODE for anything loser? It's not... you wouldn't KNOW what to do with others code, considering a fool like you has none of your own you can show for yourself, lol... apk
Fisted's fail http://slashdot.org/comments.p... Coren22's fail http://slashdot.org/comments.p...
Like you blew me last night?
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
Perhaps you should look up the word "number". 24 is a number, 120 is a number. 7000 is an excessively high and wasteful number.
Tesla's system is like a two level RAID array for batteries. The car can work around weak cells and failing modules with software and targeted replacement (a RAID6+ of modules employing RAID6+ with the cells). One monolithic battery or even a small number of them would not have the same flexibility or replacebility. Also Tesla's business goals would have them buying a vast fraction of the battery production in short order. It made sense to start with the most widely manufactured 18650 cell. Now that they are building their own factory I imagine you'll see custom packs perfectly suited to their needs.
Lots of projects on Endless-Sphere are now using pouch cells. They have more kwh per unit (~20 Ahr vs 2.2-3Ahr), stack densely and employ tabs that make it easy to connect them in parallel or series.
They are small scale automaker and were not able to order whole new production lines for custom form at that time, going all custom isn't cheap either. So they just used what was available with some improvements, they are not the same flashlight batteries despite the same form factor. They are going to increase battery size a bit in the future. Other automakers use bigger cells.
It is not worth to recycle lithium, it is too cheap.
Larger cells mean inability to control the heat which is what really destroys the cells. In addition, with high parallelism, they are able to deliver a great deal more amps as well as charge much faster. IOW, the use of massive cells was an intelligent choice, not one forced on them. In addition, the wrappers are not the same as what goes into your laptop.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Recycle may also be a euphemism for "dispose of responsibly" - landfills full of lithium probably aren't a good idea, we're already "medicating nature" with wastewater contaminated by pharmaceutical lithium.
Jesus fucking Christ, this asshole's becoming annoying... Spewing this shit all over the place. Go somewhere else and make a mess, asshat.
Coren22 IMPERSONATES RESPECTED MEMBERS OF THE SECURITY COMMUNITY http://slashdot.org/comments.p...
---
"privilege escalation's a bad thing" - by Coren22 on Tuesday September 22, 2015
How else programmatically update it?
"requires elevation to write hosts" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday September 23, 2015
Hypocrite later admits it - hosts do vs. WFP/SFP not my ware. Users set it not programmatic impersonation. Security wares need it.
---
"secretary at MalwareBytes took a look at his source code & said it looked all good" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday November 18, 2015
Mr. Steven Burn of Malwarebytes
"yes I've seen the code & yes it is safe." FROM http://forum.hosts-file.net/vi...
---
"we should avoid your crap it looks like malware." - by Coren22 (1625475) on Monday November 02, 2015 @03:52PM (#50850445)
60++ reputable sources say different:
64-bit model https://www.virustotal.com/en/...
+
32-bit model https://www.virustotal.com/en/...
&
Installer-> http://f.virscan.org/APKHostsF...
MalwareBytes' hpHosts Admin (MalwareBytes employee) hosts & recommends it -> http://hosts-file.net/?s=Downl...
---
"MiTM... his software provides" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday November 18, 2015
Hardcoded favs users provide = REVERSE DNS verified & my ware filters 5,500++ false positives - security site hosts data = false positives filtered.
---
"Apk doesn't think DNS servers are worth running & believes Microsoft Active Directory can run w/out DNS." - by Coren22 (1625475) on Tuesday October 27, 2015
Show us where I say it? Not illogic logic but where I say it. I say AD needs internal DNS far back as 2007
http://forums.tweaktown.com/wi...
See "To warn users who have ActiveDirectory/AD LAN-WAN setups to NOT use external DNS servers" there.
APK
P.S.=>
"modding you down for trolling in your signature" - by Dog-Cow (21281) on Wednesday November 25, 2015
Dog-Cow's (old acc't. no new sockpuppet from you) thoughts of your signatures about me
... apk
See subject: 3x in a row in a post that snapped you in 1/2 Coren22 http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ? How about the 1 before it too http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ?? What about your classic list of FAILS too Coren22 http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ???
* :)
(You're just TOO STUPID to live... lol, no joke!)
APK
P.S.=> Your assburgers mentally damaged goods brain showed it itself bigtime in the 1st two... how so? You failed to account for adblocking (another speed gainer hosts yield above & beyond hardcoded favorites which you concede cached in RAM are faster than remote DNS lookups) which makes up for even the SUB 4% times I have to look to DNS - rare in & of itself, but it offsets that (since pages are only literally 1/2 their size MINUS ads bloating them) - this proves your LIMITED ASSBURGERS BRAIN can only handle 1 variable @ a time, lol - no wonder you're not capable of coding... apk
The 1 leg he thought he could stand on vs. me that snapped you in 1/2 Coren22 http://slashdot.org/comments.p...
How about the 1 before it too http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ??
What about your classic list of FAILS too Coren22 http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ???
* :)
(You're just TOO STUPID to live... lol, no joke!)
APK
P.S.=> Your assburgers mentally damaged goods brain showed it itself bigtime in the 1st two... how so? You failed to account for adblocking (another speed gainer hosts yield above & beyond hardcoded favorites which you concede cached in RAM are faster than remote DNS lookups) which makes up for even the SUB 4% times I have to look to DNS - rare in & of itself, but it offsets that (since pages are only literally 1/2 their size MINUS ads bloating them) - this proves your LIMITED ASSBURGERS BRAIN can only handle 1 variable @ a time, lol - no wonder you're not capable of coding... apk
Coren22 IMPERSONATES RESPECTED MEMBERS OF THE SECURITY COMMUNITY http://slashdot.org/comments.p...
---
"privilege escalation's a bad thing" - by Coren22 on Tuesday September 22, 2015
How else programmatically update it?
"requires elevation to write hosts" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday September 23, 2015
Hypocrite later admits it - hosts do vs. WFP/SFP not my ware. Users set it not programmatic impersonation. Security wares need it.
---
"secretary at MalwareBytes took a look at his source code & said it looked all good" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday November 18, 2015
Mr. Steven Burn of Malwarebytes
"yes I've seen the code & yes it is safe." FROM http://forum.hosts-file.net/vi...
---
"we should avoid your crap it looks like malware." - by Coren22 (1625475) on Monday November 02, 2015 @03:52PM (#50850445)
60++ reputable sources say different:
64-bit model https://www.virustotal.com/en/...
+
32-bit model https://www.virustotal.com/en/...
&
Installer-> http://f.virscan.org/APKHostsF...
MalwareBytes' hpHosts Admin (MalwareBytes employee) hosts & recommends it -> http://hosts-file.net/?s=Downl...
---
"MiTM... his software provides" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday November 18, 2015
Hardcoded favs users provide = REVERSE DNS verified & my ware filters 5,500++ false positives - security site hosts data = false positives filtered.
---
"Apk doesn't think DNS servers are worth running & believes Microsoft Active Directory can run w/out DNS." - by Coren22 (1625475) on Tuesday October 27, 2015
Show us where I say it? Not illogic logic but where I say it. I say AD needs internal DNS far back as 2007
http://forums.tweaktown.com/wi...
See "To warn users who have ActiveDirectory/AD LAN-WAN setups to NOT use external DNS servers" there.
APK
P.S.=>
"modding you down for trolling in your signature" - by Dog-Cow (21281) on Wednesday November 25, 2015
Dog-Cow's (old acc't. no new sockpuppet from you) thoughts of your signatures about me
... apk
Coren22 likes his signatures about apk. Apk likes posting Coren22's fuckups wherever he posts. If Coren22 wouldn't try hide apk's posts with abused downmods apk wouldn't post it so much.
Mostly getting something new into production is a hell of a lot more work than a promising prototype so the new technologies falter at that step instead of being actively stopped by anyone.
Another thing to add is a lot of stuff actually works but is not considered worth putting into production to compete against current oil and coal prices. When the oil price doubles or more again you'll see a few interesting things coming into production a few years after that jump.
The energy density of the sodium battery matches the first lithium ion batteries.
So technically speaking not wrong but still very deceptive.
Typical marketing speak!
I really wish you would die. I come here to read comments that may offer insight into the articles posted. Nobody and I mean nobody gives a fuck about your psychopathic autistic rants. Shut the fuck up.