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Giant Telescope Project Stalled By Hawaiian Natives (khon2.com)

Posted by samzenpus on from the go-ahead-and-stop dept.

Fudge Factor 3000 writes: The Hawaiian Supreme Court has pulled a construction permit for the Thirty Meter Telescope project. A vocal minority of Hawaiians has vehemently protested the construction of the telescope for religious reasons. Now, they have been successful in contesting the construction permit. The ruling reads in part: "The process followed by the Board here did not meet these standards. Quite simply, the Board put the cart before the horse when it issued the permit before the request for a contested case hearing was resolved and the hearing was held. Accordingly, the permit cannot stand."

17 of 177 comments (clear)

  1. I support the telescope by Crashmarik · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But the hypocrisy that will come from the complaints about the "Vocal Minority" will be over the top. All I have to say to both sides on this is, "Welcome to the rule of law and individual rights"

    1. Re:I support the telescope by pushing-robot · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Section 7. The State reaffirms and shall protect all rights, customarily and traditionally exercised for subsistence, cultural and religious purposes and possessed by ahupua’a tenants who are descendants of native Hawaiians who inhabited the Hawaiian Islands prior to 1778, subject to the right of the State to regulate such rights. [Add Const Con 1978 and election Nov 7, 1978]”

      It may be law, but it makes me uneasy when a religion becomes enshrined in law. I guess we're lucky they're not cannibals.

      --
      How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
    2. Re:I support the telescope by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If Maunakea is so sacred, why has the military been able to use it as a bombing range all these years? Could it be that astronomers are just more easily picked on than soldiers?

    3. Re:I support the telescope by hackertourist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This ruling has nothing to do with religion. Due process was not followed when the permit was granted. The university is free to apply for a permit again.

    4. Re:I support the telescope by chubs · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Pesky natives. I can't believe that after coercing them the U.S., transforming their homeland into an amusement park for tourists and virtually enslaving their people in the sugar plantations, they STILL feel like they have to be consulted before things happen on what little ground they have left. Didn't they get the message that they aren't valued? To think they want OUR MONEY when all we are trying to do is take over everything their culture remembers is preposterous. Honestly, we've been more than kind to them. They should look to the mainland and feel lucky we didn't treat them like we did the natives here.

    5. Re:I support the telescope by hackertourist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It doesn't matter on which grounds the protest group objected to the permit. They were not heard, and that's what the Court ruled on.

    6. Re:I support the telescope by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I spent a month in Hawaii learning about the native culture. The people are nice enough but as for the culture: I can hardly blame the plantation owners for considering them pagan savages. There is nothing of value to preserve there.

      It's an unpopular thing to say but the Hawaiins are infinitely better off as a result of gentrification than they were while they were still killing each-other for offending their royalty.

    7. Re:I support the telescope by Copid · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Could it be that astronomers are just more easily picked on than soldiers?

      I think you're on the right track, but the phrasing is backward. People with guns an pick on whomever they want. People with telescopes have to ask permission.

      --
      An interesting anagram of "BANACH TARSKI" is "BANACH TARSKI BANACH TARSKI"
  2. Re:Where the TMT can go now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yeah, let's be like China, that's the model to emulate!

  3. Sacred ground by sjbe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A vocal minority of Hawaiians has vehemently protested the construction of the telescope for religious reasons.

    Don't you love how people can make up nonsensical stories about how something is sacred to them to stop activities they don't like? Sometimes they even believe the nonsense they are spouting. But it's still nonsense. Personally I find scientific inquiry to be sacred ground and I can actually show how scientific inquiry benefits mankind. If they want to show how this telescope will cause some objective problem (environmental, logistical, financial, whatever) then by all means let's slow down and consider if the telescope is a good idea. But religious objections carry no weight with me.

    So they have to hold a hearing so everyone can have their say. Fine. Hold the hearing. But religious objections are no grounds to stop construction of the telescope. Let them tell us how sacred this particular patch of ground is and then build the damn thing. I'm tired of people trying to trample valuable research because of their mythology.

    1. Re:Sacred ground by Sperbels · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What do you mean "white people"?

      They're US citizens. They can be elected into any political office. They have the same freedom as any white person in the most powerful country in the world. Their state has representation in the government, and they enjoy all benefits of any other state...including it's protection from other foreign invaders. Considering it's strategic location, their independence would be short lived if it wasn't part of the US.

      Or do you mean rich people doing what they want with their land? If so, then say that. Please don't include me (an average white non-rich Coloradoan) in your class war rhetoric.

    2. Re:Sacred ground by PPH · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And I'm tired of arrogant people who can't respect other people's cultures.

      Science is a part of my culture. And I'm tired of people blocking its progress with silly religious objections.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  4. Re:Where the TMT can go now by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 3, Insightful

    China, as a major partner in TMT, has a sincere interest in seeing the project get built. Best of all, the Greens who are really behind this have no input to Chinese policy. Native objections could not have been crucial in stopping the TMT, because the site was in a designated telescope reserve inside a large environmental preserve on the mountain that has been run by University of Hawaii since the Sixties. The TMT would have been just the latest of many instruments built in the reserve. The Green campaign against TMT has been identical to their long but unsuccessful attempt to kill off the astronomy "industry" here in Arizona (http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-94-010-0049-9_6#page-1).

    Additionally, China would love an opportunity to get a jump on a nation that it perceives being in decline, and would probably increase its commitment to the project. The Qinghai Plateau is in a poor part of the country that, unlike Hawaii, does not get much tourism because of its remoteness. The natives are going to love those construction and maintenance jobs.

  5. Something that isn't there. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Scientists in this case are discounting something that isn't there, not destroying stuff that is.

  6. Re:Where the TMT can go now by gtall · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Pay off the natives like they wanted, build telescope, leave religion behind.

  7. Re:Nothing being damaged here by tarpitcod · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In a falsifiability test between 'Hawaiian Magma Gods' and String theory, my money is on Hawaiian Magma Gods.

  8. Maybe I'm Cynical by BinBoy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    > vehemently protested the construction of the telescope for religious reasons.

    Maybe I'm cynical but I wonder if this is more about wanting a payoff than anything religious.