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Giant Telescope Project Stalled By Hawaiian Natives (khon2.com)

Posted by samzenpus on from the go-ahead-and-stop dept.

Fudge Factor 3000 writes: The Hawaiian Supreme Court has pulled a construction permit for the Thirty Meter Telescope project. A vocal minority of Hawaiians has vehemently protested the construction of the telescope for religious reasons. Now, they have been successful in contesting the construction permit. The ruling reads in part: "The process followed by the Board here did not meet these standards. Quite simply, the Board put the cart before the horse when it issued the permit before the request for a contested case hearing was resolved and the hearing was held. Accordingly, the permit cannot stand."

24 of 177 comments (clear)

  1. I support the telescope by Crashmarik · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But the hypocrisy that will come from the complaints about the "Vocal Minority" will be over the top. All I have to say to both sides on this is, "Welcome to the rule of law and individual rights"

    1. Re:I support the telescope by pushing-robot · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Section 7. The State reaffirms and shall protect all rights, customarily and traditionally exercised for subsistence, cultural and religious purposes and possessed by ahupua’a tenants who are descendants of native Hawaiians who inhabited the Hawaiian Islands prior to 1778, subject to the right of the State to regulate such rights. [Add Const Con 1978 and election Nov 7, 1978]”

      It may be law, but it makes me uneasy when a religion becomes enshrined in law. I guess we're lucky they're not cannibals.

      --
      How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
    2. Re:I support the telescope by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If Maunakea is so sacred, why has the military been able to use it as a bombing range all these years? Could it be that astronomers are just more easily picked on than soldiers?

    3. Re:I support the telescope by hackertourist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This ruling has nothing to do with religion. Due process was not followed when the permit was granted. The university is free to apply for a permit again.

    4. Re:I support the telescope by NotDrWho · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Anyone who has ever worked with Hawaiian natives can tell you this has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with money. Basically, whoever is trying to build this telescope must not have realized that building anything big in Hawaii requires a big kickback to the natives.

      --
      SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
    5. Re:I support the telescope by pla · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This ruling has nothing to do with religion.

      "The State reaffirms and shall protect all rights, customarily and traditionally exercised for subsistence, cultural and religious purposes"

      Well, if by "nothing" you mean "everything"...


      Due process was not followed when the permit was granted. The university is free to apply for a permit again.

      Does the state intend to reimburse the university for expenses already incurred as a result of the state's negligence in failing to follow their discriminatory religion-favoring "due process" rules?

    6. Re:I support the telescope by chubs · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Pesky natives. I can't believe that after coercing them the U.S., transforming their homeland into an amusement park for tourists and virtually enslaving their people in the sugar plantations, they STILL feel like they have to be consulted before things happen on what little ground they have left. Didn't they get the message that they aren't valued? To think they want OUR MONEY when all we are trying to do is take over everything their culture remembers is preposterous. Honestly, we've been more than kind to them. They should look to the mainland and feel lucky we didn't treat them like we did the natives here.

    7. Re:I support the telescope by hackertourist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It doesn't matter on which grounds the protest group objected to the permit. They were not heard, and that's what the Court ruled on.

    8. Re:I support the telescope by Solandri · · Score: 4, Informative

      To be fair, Hawaii is a particularly brazen example of a territory grab. I mean sure, most of the U.S. was settled that way, taking territory from native Americans (who didn't have the concept of owning land). But Hawaii was originally a country. White settlers from the U.S. who wanted to use it for agriculture overthrew the native government, and got the U.S. to annex it. Even then it wasn't over, as the U.S. allows territories to vote for either independence or statehood (the Philippines and Cuba for example voted for independence, Puerto Rico is in a perpetual state of delaying the vote). But by the time Hawaii voted, its native population had been overwhelmed by sugar and pineapple plantation workers and military personnel at Pearl Harbor.

      From the perspective of the natives, a mere kickback is probably a tiny fraction of what they feel is owed to them for basically stealing their country.

    9. Re:I support the telescope by Copid · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Could it be that astronomers are just more easily picked on than soldiers?

      I think you're on the right track, but the phrasing is backward. People with guns an pick on whomever they want. People with telescopes have to ask permission.

      --
      An interesting anagram of "BANACH TARSKI" is "BANACH TARSKI BANACH TARSKI"
    10. Re: I support the telescope by ceoyoyo · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Jared Diamond calls it something like the noble savage fantasy. Many people insist on believing that native cultures were all peaceful utopias who called up mother Earth every Sunday. The truth is that premodern cultures, including white European cultures, were almost all incredibly nasty. Occasional, isolated, exceptions existed, until they met their bloodthirsty enslaving, often cannibalistic neighbours. Those neighbours were sometimes English, Spanish, Carib, Iroquois, Viking, Ottoman, or pretty much anybody else. Modern societies aren't perfect, but they're far, far better than anything that existed even a couple hundred years ago.

  2. Re:Where the TMT can go now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yeah, let's be like China, that's the model to emulate!

  3. Ask the right questions by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Funny

    "Cut the crap, how much money to appease the spirits of your ancestors?"

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  4. Sacred ground by sjbe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A vocal minority of Hawaiians has vehemently protested the construction of the telescope for religious reasons.

    Don't you love how people can make up nonsensical stories about how something is sacred to them to stop activities they don't like? Sometimes they even believe the nonsense they are spouting. But it's still nonsense. Personally I find scientific inquiry to be sacred ground and I can actually show how scientific inquiry benefits mankind. If they want to show how this telescope will cause some objective problem (environmental, logistical, financial, whatever) then by all means let's slow down and consider if the telescope is a good idea. But religious objections carry no weight with me.

    So they have to hold a hearing so everyone can have their say. Fine. Hold the hearing. But religious objections are no grounds to stop construction of the telescope. Let them tell us how sacred this particular patch of ground is and then build the damn thing. I'm tired of people trying to trample valuable research because of their mythology.

    1. Re:Sacred ground by Sperbels · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What do you mean "white people"?

      They're US citizens. They can be elected into any political office. They have the same freedom as any white person in the most powerful country in the world. Their state has representation in the government, and they enjoy all benefits of any other state...including it's protection from other foreign invaders. Considering it's strategic location, their independence would be short lived if it wasn't part of the US.

      Or do you mean rich people doing what they want with their land? If so, then say that. Please don't include me (an average white non-rich Coloradoan) in your class war rhetoric.

    2. Re:Sacred ground by PPH · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And I'm tired of arrogant people who can't respect other people's cultures.

      Science is a part of my culture. And I'm tired of people blocking its progress with silly religious objections.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  5. Re:Where the TMT can go now by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Interesting

    When it comes to dealing with extortion from people putting up religion as a front, yes.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  6. Re:Where the TMT can go now by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 3, Insightful

    China, as a major partner in TMT, has a sincere interest in seeing the project get built. Best of all, the Greens who are really behind this have no input to Chinese policy. Native objections could not have been crucial in stopping the TMT, because the site was in a designated telescope reserve inside a large environmental preserve on the mountain that has been run by University of Hawaii since the Sixties. The TMT would have been just the latest of many instruments built in the reserve. The Green campaign against TMT has been identical to their long but unsuccessful attempt to kill off the astronomy "industry" here in Arizona (http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-94-010-0049-9_6#page-1).

    Additionally, China would love an opportunity to get a jump on a nation that it perceives being in decline, and would probably increase its commitment to the project. The Qinghai Plateau is in a poor part of the country that, unlike Hawaii, does not get much tourism because of its remoteness. The natives are going to love those construction and maintenance jobs.

  7. Re: Where the TMT can go now by Rei · · Score: 4, Informative

    It' not so much about altitude and weather as it is seeing conditions; Mauna Loa has among the best if not the best seeing conditions on Earth outside Antarctica. Good seeing depends in large part on how flat and uniform the terrain is for hundreds of kilometers upwind; high mountains on islands consequently tend to fare well (the Canary Islands are another good spot)

    The best known seeing location on Earth is in deep Antarctica. Unfortunately the location would make the costs prohibative.

    --
    I hate to bring up our imminent arrest during your crazy time, but we gotta move.
  8. Re:Where the TMT can go now by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 3, Informative

    Yes, UH can theoretically reapply for a permit. The environmental qualification required for this mountain, independent of any native claims, is so intricate that doing it over again would take another fifteen years. Meanwhile, TMT components are already being built. I would rather see China grab the project than see us go through such a long permitting process all over again.

  9. Re:Where the TMT can go now by gtall · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Pay off the natives like they wanted, build telescope, leave religion behind.

  10. Re:Mauna Kea [Re:I support the telescope[ by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "You're probably thinking of Pohakuloa."

    Yes, Pohakuloa on the lower slopes of Maunakea. And are they still running those Enduro 500-mile mud races?

  11. Re:Nothing being damaged here by tarpitcod · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In a falsifiability test between 'Hawaiian Magma Gods' and String theory, my money is on Hawaiian Magma Gods.

  12. Maybe I'm Cynical by BinBoy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    > vehemently protested the construction of the telescope for religious reasons.

    Maybe I'm cynical but I wonder if this is more about wanting a payoff than anything religious.