Intel Skylake CPUs Are Warping Under Mounting Pressure From Third-Party Coolers (hothardware.com)

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Intel Skylake CPUs Are Warping Under Mounting Pressure From Third-Party Coolers (hothardware.com)

Posted by Soulskill on Friday December 4, 2015 @06:55AM from the try-cooling-it-with-a-sky-lake-instead dept.

MojoKid writes: It's been discovered that some third-party heat sinks can physically damage Intel's new Skylake CPUs, along with the pins in the accompanying motherboard socket. The problem has prompted at least one cooler maker to change the design of its Socket 1151 heat sinks and it wouldn't be surprising if others soon followed suit. The apparent issue is the substrate Intel used for its Skylake chips. A close-up shot of a Skylake CPU sitting side-by-side with a Broadwell processor (Google translation of German original) shows that the substrate is noticeably thinner on Skylake, and thus prone to bending from the force that some third-party heat sinks exert. Intel has addressed the issue by saying, “The design specifications and guidelines for the 6th Gen Intel Core processor using the LGA 1151 socket are unchanged from previous generations and are available for partners and 3rd party manufacturers. Intel can’t comment on 3rd party designs or their adherence to the recommended design specifications. For questions about a specific cooling product we must defer to the manufacturer.”

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Will the cooler manufacturers pay? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 06:59 · Score: 0

If you installed the cooler per the manufacturer's instructions, and it destroys your CPU and motherboard, they should be responsible to buy you a new one.
1. Re: Will the cooler manufacturers pay? by Luthair · 2015-12-04 07:06 · Score: 0
  
  At this point we don't know if it is Intels changes..... Though one also imagines that the force used to install the had is often higher than the resting pressure so..... Overall though hsf companies have to push the limit to get the performance people demand, and afaik Intel still ships one with the CPU so one imagines they'll tell people to get stuffed.
2. Re: Will the cooler manufacturers pay? by sexconker · 2015-12-04 08:22 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Look, oh_my_shittynumbers is being an idiot again.
  The question isn't whether or not shit is thinner, it clearly is.
  The question is whether:
  A: Third party heatsinks are exceeding the limit (50 pounds) for mounting pressure.
  B: Intel fucked up and the 50 pound limit needs to be lowered for the thinner shit.
  C: Both A and B.
  My guess is A.
  The heatsink mounting pressure is way over limit for many third-party heatsinks, but the 50 pound limit was conservative for older Intel CPUs and they could handle a lot more. The newer CPUs can almost certainly handle the listed 50 pounds, and more, but not nearly as much as the older CPUs.
  Anyone who has installed a large third-party heatsink knows that the fucking motherboard will flex and bend and you'll put a ton of fucking pressure on it when installing it and trying to get it latched/screwed/etc. properly. After installation you look at it and think "Uh, is this really okay? Should I switch to a horizontal configuration?". But you'll leave it vertical anyway.
3. Re: Will the cooler manufacturers pay? by Fallen+Kell · 2015-12-04 09:01 · Score: 1
  
  Anyone who has installed a large third-party heatsink knows that the fucking motherboard will flex and bend and you'll put a ton of fucking pressure on it when installing it and trying to get it latched/screwed/etc. properly. After installation you look at it and think "Uh, is this really okay? Should I switch to a horizontal configuration?". But you'll leave it vertical anyway.
  The decent third party heatsinks never caused the motherboard to flex and bend because they used a backplate that held the enter area rigid. The real issue is did the heatsink mounting pressure and if it exceeded what the substrate can handle. Obviously with Intel's change, the height and/or tolerances changed on the new CPUs. Whether this resulted in Intel needing to release new specs or if it still was within the limits of the old spec, it is then up to the heatsink manufacturers to see if their heatsinks exceed those specs (which almost all of them do in terms of weight, but the weight limit is for the un-augmented heatsink mounting points, and almost all the large heatsinks that exceed the weight replace the mounting system to use the additional backplate which takes the load from the 4 small screwholes around the CPU socket and distributes it across a much larger area of the motherboard).
  
  In other words, the problem exists in either Intel not disclosing a change to the specifications, or third party heatsinks exceeded the values like you said initially. There is no motherboard bending getting a decent heatsink to be installed as most use a screw+spring setup where-in a spring is placed around a screw (much like shocks on a car) and the pressure applied to the CPU/socket is from the springs being compressed as the screws are tightened down.
  
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4. Re: Will the cooler manufacturers pay? by elusive_one · 2015-12-04 09:19 · Score: 1
  
  The first i7's to ship (6700k) did not ship with a cooler
5. Re: Will the cooler manufacturers pay? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 10:01 · Score: 0
  
  In case anyone is wondering, that's Bitztream's sock puppet.
6. Re: Will the cooler manufacturers pay? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 11:50 · Score: 0
  
  "Anyone who has installed a large third-party heatsink knows that the fucking motherboard will flex and bend and you'll put a ton of fucking pressure on it when installing it and trying to get it latched/screwed/etc. "
  Any proper person does that shit with the motherboard OUT of the system so it doesn't flex.
  You apparently don't know how to work on shit.
7. Re: Will the cooler manufacturers pay? by donaldm · 2015-12-04 13:18 · Score: 1
  
  I have never seen an i7 6700k (4.0GHz to 4.2GHz) ship with a cooler. The i7 6700 (3.4GHz) has a cooler, however it is a basic Intel fan one which in most cases will do the job. What is important here is that you need a compatible mother board and associated memory if you are going to design and build the core of your PC properly. Next comes peripherals such as storage, graphics card, monitor, wireless or LAN connection as well as a keyboard and mouse, not forgetting the case and power supply of course.
  What is important in any PC design is knowing what you want which will (or should) dictate the required components. Of course knowing your budget constants is important although for some that may not be an issue.
  The bottom line is "homework" --> Knowledge and repeat as often as you like until it all sinks in. Don't like that well you can buy pre-built PC's for a price.
  
  --
  There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
8. Re: Will the cooler manufacturers pay? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-05 03:31 · Score: 1
  
  Anyone who has installed a large third-party heatsink knows that the fucking motherboard will flex and bend and you'll put a ton of fucking pressure
  Well, there's your problem. You're not supposed to have sex on your computer components. They're not designed for that. There really is no such thing as a fucking motherboard. Motherboards are strictly for computation, not fucking... even if most of the computation done involves displaying fucking videos and images.
9. Re: Will the cooler manufacturers pay? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-05 12:59 · Score: 0
  
  I go for C, as I'm pretty sure that they fucked up, I built 4 identical machine and only one CPU warped, It was one that was under a stress test (basically a burn up) where the CPU was in his thermal limit during hours the one that warped and the others that where basically idle didn't warp
10. Re: Will the cooler manufacturers pay? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-06 00:43 · Score: 0
  
  No
Well, stop requiring such high pressures by kriston · 2015-12-04 07:00 · Score: 2, Interesting

Well, maybe Intel should stop requiring such high pressures on the heat sink/heat spreader interface. Surely there's a more efficient way to handle cooling. This idiocy started with the Pentium 4 and needs to stop.

--
Kriston
1. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 07:06 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Intel still sells stock coolers for all of their CPU's, they just don't ship with them. Intel coolers are more than adequate unless you are going crazy with overclocking. Intel coolers don't bend Intel CPU's.
  Not sure why you are blaming Intel here.
2. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by jenningsthecat · 2015-12-04 07:06 · Score: 1, Informative
  
  I have to wonder why such high pressure is necessary. With appropriately flat and smooth surfaces on the chip and the heatsink, and a properly thin and even layer of thermal paste, it shouldn't be necessary to apply much more pressure than that required to hold it all in place.
  
  --
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3. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 07:08 · Score: 0
  
  Intel coolers don't bend Intel CPU's.
  Is this proven?
  
  Not sure why you are blaming Intel here.
  If Intel provided a specification for the Heat Sink manufacturers to use and did not indicate a change in acceptable pressure applied to the CPU, then that would be something where they might be responsible.
4. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by Joe_Dragon · 2015-12-04 07:17 · Score: 1
  
  The stock Intel pushpin sucks and is easy to miss install others due it much better.
5. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by PitaBred · 2015-12-04 07:20 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  They don't. The pressure rating for Skylake is the same as Broadwell, 50psi. Which ensures a good contact. What is likely happening is that some aftermarket coolers used more pressure because they're huge, heavy hunks of metal and needed more force to keep from lifting away, and those worked with the stronger substrate that Broadwell and earlier had, but not with Skylake.
  
  --
  My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
6. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by GameboyRMH · 2015-12-04 07:20 · Score: 1
  
  Intel coolers are more than adequate unless you are going crazy with overclocking
  Or if you want to use passive or liquid cooling, or if you just want to put some bling in your PC case...not that there's anything wrong with overclocking. Many Intel CPUs explicitly support it.
  
  --
  "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
7. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by thegarbz · 2015-12-04 07:22 · Score: 1
  
  This. It's not necessary. Pressure only improves things if you gob on heatsinkpaste like it's going out of fashion, and then it only improves transfer by squeezing the goop out of the way. With pre-applied paste / pads there's no reason for it. Make those layers thinner and lower the pressure.
  I have yet to see a single motherboard that isn't bending and buckling under the strain of the heatsink. That's not good for long term reliability of the board.
8. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by Tailhook · 2015-12-04 07:25 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Intel still sells stock coolers for all of their CPU's, they just don't ship with them.
  Huh? The last two I personally purchased (Ivy Bridge i5-3570K and Skylake i7-6700) both provided a heatsink+fan.
  
  Intel coolers are more than adequate unless you are going crazy with overclocking. Intel coolers don't bend Intel CPU's.
  Both 100% true. The fans on the Intel coolers are quiet under common loads (gaming included) and the temperatures are in spec at all times. The only time I've ever heard the CPU get loud enough to matter was running prime95 to deliberately load the devices.
  I don't know what "high pressures" kriston is talking about. The Intel cooler, particularly on the Skylake, didn't require high pressure to install. Honestly the Skylake case kind of confused me because so little pressure was needed.
  This is about overclockers buying out-of-spec aftermarket stuff. Self inflicted.
  
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  Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
9. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 07:25 · Score: 0
  
  I agree, I had a P4 followed by a Core 2 Quad both using the Intel setup, and not only did they tend to work only marginally well for a rather limited time without maintenance, the pins had a habit of popping out when bumped or not adjusted perfectly.
  My latest system has a large Noctua system that screws in with a heavy duty bracket, and although it was a challenge to get aligned, it is rock solid and seems a lot more reliable. Then again, reapplying heatsink compound will be even harder and it DOES use a lot of force. I tend to ignore these issues and just leave it where it is :P
10. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by FirstOne · 2015-12-04 07:25 · Score: 0
  
  This is not a recent phenomenon, all of my Intel LGA socket based laptops have died in 5 to 10 yr timeframe. Meanwhile, my AMD based laptops(upwards of 16 years old) are still functional.
11. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by GerryGilmore · 2015-12-04 07:28 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  Actually, non-overclocked Skylakes do ship with a stock cooler. The first Skylake processor released was the 4790K (K=overclocked) and does not ship with its own cooler. Non-Ks do, though.
12. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by SeaFox · 2015-12-04 07:28 · Score: 0
  
  Intel still sells stock coolers for all of their CPU's, they just don't ship with them. Intel coolers are more than adequate unless you are going crazy with overclocking. Intel coolers don't bend Intel CPU's.
  Sorry man, you're wrong.
  Built my mom a new PC with a Haswell Core i3 and when I was doing burn-in the processor was throttling with the boxed Intel cooler it came with. CPU was running stock and case had decent ventilation.
  Switched to a third-party cooler and that went away. Running full-bore for hours and no throttling. Temperature monitor showed a lower core temp, too.
13. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by bluefoxlucid · 2015-12-04 07:42 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Likely they're intentionally trying to deform the surface to fit, and to compress and thin the thermal paste.
  You want a thin, fully-contacted surface to maximize thermal transfer. Intel likely made the substrate thinner to increase thermal transfer: 1 inch of highly-thermally-conductive silver is a better insulator than 1 micrometer of highly-thermally-conductive silver (hell, a mile of silver wire is a better electrical resistor than a layer of silver foil stuffed between two terminals). Silicone substrate isn't particularly thermally conductive, and thick silicone substrate is even less so.
  Because the CPU surface isn't perfectly flat but *is* flexible, pressure will help conform it to the (also not perfectly flat) heat sink surface. This squeezes some of the thermal paste away, and compresses out voids to increase contact surface area. If you assume more is better, you'll naturally conclude that crushing the CPU into dust will give you better contact.
  If Intel puts out a specification saying 50psi is rated contact pressure for correct heat sink function, you might decide to put 90psi on it. It works. You ship that, Intel releases a CPU that can handle 70psi instead of 140psi, they don't bother telling anyone because the CPU's spec is still 50psi, and shit starts breaking.
  Amusingly, Intel could have glibly put every cooling system manufacture on a list of warranty-terminating equipment ages ago. They could have said, "Hey, we tested all these EXXXTREME COOLING jet fans and they dump 120psi onto our chips like the Hulk putting our balls in a vice. You strap that to the CPU and it fails, we're not responsible." It's fair for Intel to claim that unknown third-party equipment can destroy their hardware; can they quality control third-party equipment? They could, and they could stamp their name on it. That's how motherboards are made, and the board manufacturer is still liable if their board is mis-manufactured (now, if Intel passes the design and the design is flawed, Intel's certification makes Intel liable--Intel is negligent here; if the manufacturing is not within tolerance to produce properly-working equipment and it pumps out flawed boards, it's the manufacturer's fault).
  These things happen. It sucks when they do.
  
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14. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by ciantic · 2015-12-04 07:42 · Score: 1
  
  I have Skylake 6700k, it does not come with cooler maybe your supplier gave some extra cooler. But neither boxed (fancy box with longer warranty) or tray (the transparent box) versions has even space to fit a cooler in them. I also bought massive cooler, NH-D15. No warping here yet!
15. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by plover · 2015-12-04 07:42 · Score: 1, Informative
  
  Intel ships heat sinks and fans with all their retail-packaged CPUs. If you're buying a bare CPU from their OEM line, (perhaps from a local build-your-own shop, or many of the online sellers) they come without coolers.
  
  --
  John
16. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 07:43 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  It sounds a bit like you didn't install the Intel boxed cooler correctly...
17. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by jones_supa · 2015-12-04 07:45 · Score: 1
  
  How many Intel and how many AMD laptops?
18. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 07:45 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  4790K is not Skylake, but Haswell refresh codename Devil's Canyon. It has a different thermal material between the core and the heat spreader.
19. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by oh_my_080980980 · 2015-12-04 07:49 · Score: 0
  
  RTFA: "The apparent issue is the substrate Intel used for its Skylake chips. A close-up shot of a Skylake CPU sitting side-by-side with a Broadwell processor shows that the substrate is noticeably thinner on Skylake, and thus prone to bending from the force that some third-party heat sinks exert." Read more at http://hothardware.com/news/in...
  
  You may return to your Intel dick sucking.
20. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by UnknowingFool · 2015-12-04 07:49 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  I think the the "K" version of the 6700 is the overclocked version so it does not come with a cooler as most overclockers will buy a 3rd party one. The poster had the non "K" version which is not meant to be overclocked.
  
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21. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 07:53 · Score: 0
  
  The pressure is to make the layer of thermal paste thin, i.e. to push it out and only leave enough to bridge the tiny gaps caused by unevenness in the heat spreader surface and the cooler surface. Ideally, if you remove a properly installed heat sink, there should hardly be any thermal paste on the contact area between the heat spreader and the heat sink. You can't spread it that thin beforehand, and you wouldn't know where exactly it needs to be. That's why you apply "too much" and press it out. It's in the article: They found that cooling performance did not deteriorate if they put the full pressure on the heat sink and then reduced the pressure (compared to leaving the full pressure on the heat sink). Once the thermal paste has been spread, the high pressure serves no purpose. It only needs to be strong enough to prevent movement of the heat sink against the heat spreader.
22. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 08:00 · Score: 0
  
  Actually, no, Intel CAN'T say using any 3rd party product with this CPU will void it's warranty. Car manufacturers tried that and lost.
23. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 08:05 · Score: 0
  
  The pressure rating for Skylake is the same as Broadwell, 50psi.
  Mind explaining where that number came from? Broadwell TMSDG says 220N/50lbf max, and the ihs is quite a bit larger than 1 sq in...
24. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by PRMan · 2015-12-04 08:07 · Score: 1
  
  I just bought a brand new i7 4970k from amazon and it most certainly did come with a full fan assembly.
  
  --
  Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
25. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by PRMan · 2015-12-04 08:09 · Score: 1
  
  Or he ran some ridiculous benchmark that will never mirror real-world use...
  
  --
  Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
26. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by ceoyoyo · 2015-12-04 08:14 · Score: 1
  
  And mine came with a heatsink and fan.
27. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by sanf780 · 2015-12-04 08:16 · Score: 1
  
  CPU are just not built like 16 years ago! Anyhow, not sure how useful such an old machine is, it probably is single core.
28. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by sherr · 2015-12-04 08:19 · Score: 1
  
  His point was that if the 3rd party equipment is exceeding the tolerances in the spec that it's perfectly fair for Intel to say that it voids the warranty. Car manufacturers were trying to ban all 3rd party equipment, spec performing or not, and that's a completely different ballgame.
29. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by sexconker · 2015-12-04 08:23 · Score: 2
  
  Exactly this. Intel stopped shipping coolers with the K variants a while back because they went straight into the trash.
30. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 08:32 · Score: 0
  
  Is this some new development?
  Every single boxed intel processor I've ever bought has come with a cooler.
31. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by Tailhook · 2015-12-04 08:47 · Score: 1
  
  I don't know about the 6700k. I didn't mention the 6700k. The post I replied to claims Intel doesn't ship coolers. You appear to believe this.
  Here are four distinct unboxing videos showing the Intel branded fan+heatsink emerging from the i7-6700 Intel sealed package. Case closed.
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
  
  --
  Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
32. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 09:15 · Score: 0
  
  This squeezes some of the thermal paste away, and compresses out voids to increase contact surface area. If you assume more is better, you'll naturally conclude that crushing the CPU into dust will give you better contact.
  Unless something has significantly changed from when I was building PC's, you should never, ever have a layer of thermal paste thick enough that it can squeeze anywhere.
  The thermal paste layer is supposed to be so thin as to almost be invisible. You're trying to create contact points between hills and valleys in the material that are so small you can't see them with the naked eye.
33. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 09:30 · Score: 1
  
  There is, but it was patented and nobody sells them.
  https://techreport.com/news/27...
  http://www.extremetech.com/ext...
34. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by mattventura · 2015-12-04 09:44 · Score: 1
  
  A benchmark (or any load) can only push the CPU so hard. Saying that throttling under load is okay is like saying that it's okay for your car's 5th gear to be broken because you never happen to use it. If something can't do something that it was specced to do, that's a problem.
35. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by mattventura · 2015-12-04 09:57 · Score: 1
  
  Amusingly, Intel could have glibly put every cooling system manufacture on a list of warranty-terminating equipment ages ago. They could have said, "Hey, we tested all these EXXXTREME COOLING jet fans and they dump 120psi onto our chips like the Hulk putting our balls in a vice. You strap that to the CPU and it fails, we're not responsible." It's fair for Intel to claim that unknown third-party equipment can destroy their hardware; can they quality control third-party equipment? They could, and they could stamp their name on it. That's how motherboards are made, and the board manufacturer is still liable if their board is mis-manufactured (now, if Intel passes the design and the design is flawed, Intel's certification makes Intel liable--Intel is negligent here; if the manufacturing is not within tolerance to produce properly-working equipment and it pumps out flawed boards, it's the manufacturer's fault).
  They could try to, but ultimately it would be rather unenforceable. When the guy on the phone asks you what heatsink you used, you could just tell him you used the stock heatsink. There's a huge list of things that technically void your warranty, but (a) you don't have to tell them that you did those things or used certain pieces of equipment (b) they don't care half the time, half because of (a), the other half because it would just piss people off.
36. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 10:12 · Score: 0
  
  Yeah and my 20 year old Intel 386 laptop is still plugging along... what was the point here exactly?
37. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by edxwelch · 2015-12-04 10:40 · Score: 1
  
  > The fans on the Intel coolers are quiet under common loads
  Depends on what you consider to be "quiet". If you work in a silent room they are noticably louder than a good after market cooler.
38. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 11:19 · Score: 0
  
  This idiocy started with the Pentium 4 and needs to stop.
  The basic physics of heat transfer demand that a relatively high pressure be used; look up thermal contact resistance. For example a quick search turned up http://ocw.nthu.edu.tw/ocw/upload/2/news/Contact%20Resistance%20and%20TIM.pdf [nthu.edu] (some of which I can't read, but look at pages 7 and 8) or http://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1233&context=coolingpubs [purdue.edu] (the plots on pages 27 and 28 are the most immediately informative) or even Wikipedia.
  tl;dr the thermal resistance of an interface depends on the pressure, the higher the pressure the better the conduction of the joint - particularly if pressure is below circa 400psi.
39. Re: Well, stop requiring such high pressures by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 11:20 · Score: 0
  
  Geez. The bottom line is that intel is trying to save a few books on what is essentially their bread and butter product. Making them thinner and not testing the actual real world stresses is their fault and certainly not a 3rd party cooller manufacterer's.
40. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 11:53 · Score: 0
  
  No, the boxed cooler is a tiny piece of shit barely 10mm tall.
  Even with a fan they barely manage to keep a 15W LED below 90C at room temperature.
41. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 12:50 · Score: 0
  
  They don't ship any coolers with -E/EP/EX CPUs. My Sandy Bridge-E 3930k never came with a cooler.
42. Re: Well, stop requiring such high pressures by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 13:09 · Score: 0
  
  The are trying to save a few bucks after spending billions of dollars along with providing a warranty. The thinner substrate may be a necessity. But you would rather just say it was for cost savings. Makes sense. How long have you been on the design team at intel?
43. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by donaldm · 2015-12-04 13:35 · Score: 1
  
  Intel coolers are more than adequate unless you are going crazy with overclocking
  Or if you want to use passive or liquid cooling, or if you just want to put some bling in your PC case...not that there's anything wrong with overclocking. Many Intel CPUs explicitly support it.
  True, Intel coolers are more than adequate for normal operations although there is nothing inherently wrong with overclocking within the design constraints of the processor. However you really do need to ask yourself. "Why do I want to over clock?" Be careful how you answer this since If it's for bragging rights predominately then you are not using the PC and it's resources properly.
  I think it is better to decide on what your "real" requirements are and then design a PC build around that with hopefully room for some upgrades in the future.
  
  --
  There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
44. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by donaldm · 2015-12-04 13:54 · Score: 1
  
  I think the the "K" version of the 6700 is the overclocked version so it does not come with a cooler as most overclockers will buy a 3rd party one. The poster had the non "K" version which is not meant to be overclocked.
  The Intel core i7 6700k is rated at 4GHz and you can overclock to 4.2GHz. What is important is to use a compatible mother board and associated memory (eg 3800 or better DDR4) which is going to cost, but if you have the money then that is not a problem. Of course if money is no object then how about an Intel 8 core i7 (3.0 to 3.5GHz) which has 16 threads compared to 8 threads the 4 core i7 6700k has and is only 2 to 2.5 times dearer.
  As technical people we should all know that raw GHz is not necessarily the definitive way of determining processor performance there are many other factors to be taken into account. Looking at benchmarks may not be the best way in choosing a processor/mother board/memory configuration, you really have to do some homework and understand the results before deciding what is best for you.
  
  --
  There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
45. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by donaldm · 2015-12-04 14:00 · Score: 1
  
  > The fans on the Intel coolers are quiet under common loads Depends on what you consider to be "quiet". If you work in a silent room they are noticably louder than a good after market cooler.
  Quiet is fairly subjective although I do agree that too much fan noise can be rather annoying but then again keyboard noise can be distracting as well. For me not having a case that is like a mini discotheque is more important. :-)
  
  --
  There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
46. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 14:16 · Score: 0
  
  Cruising in top gear isn't the equivalent of running a cpu under full load. The equivalent of a fully loaded cpu would be redlining the car. Try running your car at redline for several hours straight and report back about how well it goes.
47. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by mattventura · 2015-12-04 15:32 · Score: 1
  
  I must have missed the part where my car manufacturer specced my car to run at the redline 24/7.
48. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by ncc74656 · 2015-12-04 18:02 · Score: 1
  
  Exactly this. Intel stopped shipping coolers with the K variants a while back because they went straight into the trash.
  
  How far back? I just bought a Core i5 4690K last week, and a heatsink was included
  
  --
  20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
49. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by l0n3s0m3phr34k · 2015-12-04 18:23 · Score: 1
  
  Actually they DO ship with them, but usually only with the "retail box" versions. The OEM versions are just a chip usually, but almost all the blue box retails have the chip in a plastic holder sitting on top of a fan. Personally I've never needed a third-party fan, but I also don't overclock my CPUs.
50. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by l0n3s0m3phr34k · 2015-12-04 18:31 · Score: 1
  
  The K's can be overclocked, they don't ship that way though. I just bought an I7-2600K retail, and it was the blue box and also included the standard Intel fan. Intel's page here describes what all their codes mean.
51. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by l0n3s0m3phr34k · 2015-12-04 18:34 · Score: 1
  
  "unlocked" not "overclocked"...it has the potential to be overclocked. Per Intel's own page
52. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by l0n3s0m3phr34k · 2015-12-04 18:42 · Score: 1
  
  I think after 16 years "functional" is highly subjective lol. That's the Pentium III era, or the very first Athlons. Personally I wouldn't take a 16 year old laptop even if it was free...I have found far newer hardware dumpster diving.
53. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by cowbutt · 2015-12-04 19:59 · Score: 1
  
  Or if you want to use passive or liquid cooling
  Intel produce liquid coolers too: http://www.intel.com/support/processors/sb/CS-034340.htm
54. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by cowbutt · 2015-12-04 20:02 · Score: 1
  
  You can buy Intel BXTS13A (air) and BXTS13X (liquid) coolers separately.
55. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by cowbutt · 2015-12-04 20:05 · Score: 1
  
  Recent -K CPUs don't come with coolers as vocal enthusiasts have been telling Intel they just throw away the stock coolers and use third-party ones instead. You can buy Intel coolers separately for CPUs that aren't supplied with one.
56. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by MrL0G1C · 2015-12-04 22:03 · Score: 1
  
  Nope, My i7-3770K came with a 'intel' heat-sink + fan in the retail box, I think it's more likely a retail / non retail thing.
  
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57. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by MrL0G1C · 2015-12-04 22:08 · Score: 1
  
  "Unboxing videos" - that's some weird fetish there.
  
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58. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by thegarbz · 2015-12-04 22:57 · Score: 1
  
  Because the CPU surface isn't perfectly flat
  
  So why isn't it perfectly flat? I mean engineering in this day and age there's no reason someone couldn't manufacture a heat spreader to extreme tolerances that don't require bending the device into submission for surface to surface contact. Surely.
59. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by toddestan · 2015-12-05 17:35 · Score: 1
  
  It's always amazed me how terrible the Intel coolers have been after Socket 478. Pain in the ass to install correctly, and they tend work themselves loose. What really amazes me is that they've stuck with the same crappy design now for almost a decade.
60. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by bluefoxlucid · 2015-12-07 03:00 · Score: 1
  
  Didn't say it was enforceable; just said it could be policy.
  
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61. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by bluefoxlucid · 2015-12-07 03:01 · Score: 1
  
  It would have to be flat to the degree of molecular bonding, such that the CPU surface would cold-weld to the heat sink upon contact if they were made of the same material, with no application of heat.
  
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62. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by UnknowingFool · 2015-12-07 03:50 · Score: 1
  
  Intel began offering cpu only overclocked processors some time ago but I can't remember which generation started this trend. It might have been with Haswell.
  
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63. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by thegarbz · 2015-12-07 04:26 · Score: 1
  
  If it needed to be that flat then I highly doubt we'd need heatsink compound, but let's expands on that for a moment. The heatsinks which ship with CPUs these days are tiny. The power load of CPUs today (ultra high performance gaming and xeon systems excepted here) are far smaller than they were 10 years ago and on the high end they are equal to 10 years ago, yet we didn't bend things in the past like we do now.
  Thinking back to the heatsink I installed on the Athlon 800 that was significantly gentler on the processor and socket than any current small thin that ships straight from Intel, and not only that due to the heat-spreader design there's actually a better heat contact surface area than there used to be.
  So I don't buy it. Less power, bigger surface area should not be harder to heatsink.
64. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by bluefoxlucid · 2015-12-07 04:43 · Score: 1
  
  We use heatsink compound because it's not that flat. Heatsink compound is fluid and fills the voids to make a perfect contact bond where an air gap insulator exists.
  Think before you speak.
  
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65. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by thegarbz · 2015-12-07 08:46 · Score: 1
  
  CPU thermal surfaces have gotten larger. CPU thermal loads have gotten lower. We didn't bend motherboards in 2005.
  Read before you reply.
66. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by bluefoxlucid · 2015-12-07 09:16 · Score: 1
  
  It is physically impossible for the heat to transfer without heat sink compound. You "highly doubt" we need heat sink compound; you could also "highly doubt" we need lugnuts to hold wheels on cars.
  I didn't comment about pressure; I commented about the use of a thermal conductor to attach a paste. You are, again, not thinking; apparently you're also not reading, or you have no reading comprehension. Either that or you're trying to cover your stupidity by ignoring the topic which was addressed in the message.
  
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67. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by kriston · 2015-12-07 09:43 · Score: 1
  
  What? Read my comment again. I am blaming them for having such high pressures.
  And you're wrong about Intel not shipping with stock coolers. I have bought several dozen Intel CPUs in the past five years and each has an Intel-branded cooling solution shipped with it.
  Not sure why you aren't aware of these things.
  
  --
  Kriston
68. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by kriston · 2015-12-07 09:47 · Score: 1
  
  > I don't know what "high pressures" kriston is talking about.
  I've been installing processors since the late 1980s. If you've ever installed something before the Pentium 4 you'd know that high pressure just wasn't required. Processors only required enough pressure to keep it steady and fully flat, not to squash the heck out of it. Even today, AMD processors still don't require these forces to be present.
  
  --
  Kriston
69. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by cwsumner · 2015-12-07 15:03 · Score: 1
  
  The pressure is to make the layer of thermal paste thin, i.e. to push it out and only leave enough to bridge the tiny gaps caused by unevenness in the heat spreader surface and the cooler surface. ...
  Pressure to spread the thermal paste is not a good idea. Better to spread it with a single-edge razor blade, which you can get at hardware stores. That spreads and levels the thermal paste. In addition, it allows you to detect grains or crystals in the paste or from contamination. Remove those and spread smooth, it will make a much better thermal joint that merely pressure. Thermal paste does not flow well under pressure, it tends to harden instead.
  I have installed CPUs since they first had heatsinks, and the only reason I have seen mine burn out or (later days) throttle is because of dust buildup over time. Don't forget to check them for dust, every year or so. 8-)
70. Re: Well, stop requiring such high pressures by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-09 06:48 · Score: 0
  
  The package is thinner because it enables thinner devices. Most of these chips are going into mobile devices i.e. laptops; desktop is an afterthought.
71. Re:Well, stop requiring such high pressures by jenningsthecat · 2015-12-10 04:22 · Score: 1
  
  The thermal paste layer is supposed to be so thin as to almost be invisible. You're trying to create contact points between hills and valleys in the material that are so small you can't see them with the naked eye.
  And yet I see ridiculously thick gobs of thermal transfer compound even on the OEM-applied heatsinks in laptops. I suspect the problem is that 'time is money' and nobody on the manufacturing side takes the time to do it properly. When I do it, I apply a bit of paste to both surfaces, rub it in to make sure any voids that are capable of being filled are in fact filled. Then I remove paste as necessary, mate the surfaces, and rotate / slide them against each other a bit to improve the bond and to help move any excess from between the chip and the heatsink. Only then do I apply whatever clamping method is used to hold the heatsink in place. This process takes way more time than an OEM would allow; but on several occasions I've seen the computers I've worked on speed up noticeably. Whether they run better after I'm done with them than they did when they were brand new, I can't say; but they certainly run better than they did immediately before I worked on them.
  On an amusing side note, I once worked for a P ENG who thought that simply piling thermal compound over a semiconductor, (with no heatsink present at all), was a valid method of thermal management.
  
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Not surprised by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 07:04 · Score: 0

I'm not at all surprised there are problems out in the wild with this. When we were testing the A0 Skylake/Sunrisepoint ULX packaged units, you had to be extremely careful or one die or the other would shatter. When the B0 units were rolled out to us there was a metal stiffener around the perimeter which solved the problem, but the dies are so thin and the substrate is also so thin that it doesn't really take much to crack something. Didn't have these problems with the ULT packages, or with the Sunrisepoint standalone PCH at least.
Warping by rossdee · 2015-12-04 07:18 · Score: 5, Funny

Great, now all we need to do is build the rest of the starship
1. Re:Warping by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 11:24 · Score: 0
  
  Anything to get to the Island of Hawaii to see the girls!
2. Re:Warping by TeknoHog · 2015-12-04 11:31 · Score: 2
  
  Be sure to use enterprise-grade coolers.
  
  --
  Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
So, how do we call this scandal? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 07:27 · Score: 0

Warpgate?
1. Re:So, how do we call this scandal? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 08:14 · Score: 0
  
  As long as we can build, I mean warp in, Protoss units...
Political title. by fishscene · 2015-12-04 07:34 · Score: 1

I signed in just to say how awesome the title is. It makes it sound like a political article. Well done. Well done.
Comment removed by account_deleted · 2015-12-04 07:41 · Score: 3, Insightful

Comment removed based on user account deletion
What? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 07:42 · Score: 0

AMD uses the same style of heatsink, what the fuck are you talking about?
1. Re: What? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 14:37 · Score: 0
  
  What the fuck don't you understand? If both AMD and Intel uses same heat sink and only Intel fails... implies Intel is shittier. This is basic comparison testing...did you skip grade school?
Does Intel have a spec for the pressure? by QuietLagoon · 2015-12-04 07:46 · Score: 1

If not, they should.
.
If so, then the cooler makers should follow the spec.
- corollary - if the spec is followed and the CPUs still warp, well then Intel should fix their problem at no cost.
Perfect CPU for OS/2 Warp by JoeyRox · 2015-12-04 07:54 · Score: 1

I want a processor that curves to the contours of my Operating System.
1. Re:Perfect CPU for OS/2 Warp by __aaclcg7560 · 2015-12-04 08:04 · Score: 1
  
  Spaghetti code is bad enough. A spaghetti CPU? Meh...
And Laptops? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 08:10 · Score: 0

Been thinking of getting a new laptop with a skylake processor. Now I'm wondering if laptops are impacted.
It's Intel's fault by MetricT · 2015-12-04 08:13 · Score: 2, Interesting

This would matter less if Intel would include a usable heatsink with their CPU's. I have worked in high performance computing for over a decade, so putting a heat sink on isn't exactly some exotic task to me, but I couldn't get either of my home OEM Haswell heatsinks to hold onto the motherboard, they would both pop off after the slightest bump. So I *had* to use third-party heatsinks.
Intel should make backplates with threaded mounts mandatory, and should ensure that their OEM heatsink is capable of actually staying on the motherboard and keeping the CPU from thermally throttling during a Prime95 run. If the user needs a third-party heat sink due to overclocking or unusual case geometry, that's fine, but their OEM heatsink should work properly for 95% of users. But it doesn't.
Doing the right thing at Intel's scale couldn't cost more than a dollar (a little extra aluminum/steel in the right spots), yet they mysteriously cheap out. Even AMD's stock heatsink is better.
1. Re:It's Intel's fault by sexconker · 2015-12-04 08:44 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  I don't remember which one Haswell was (2 generations ago?) but I fucking HATE the Intel mounting design.
  You have to line up 4 plastic pegs, and then push and twist (to lock) each of them.
  While the pegs have a convenient arrow on them to tell you which direction you need to twist to lock them, they DON'T have an indicator for what the starting position should be. In the unlocked state they're fairly loose and can rotate in the package. I believe the slightly flatter side of the top of the peg should be closest to the heatsink, but I've never truly figured out if that was the case.
  The pegs are spring loaded, and if you push them down too far before locking you'll get it stuck in the mounting hole and you'll have to twist and pull and tug to get it back out, upsetting any of the others you have already mounted. Once you do free it, you have to reset the thing to neutral, not just by rotating it to the starting position, but also by determining if the spring or peg are stuck, and you'll need to pull and twist and tug again to reset that.
  The things are so fucking finicky. Just use a real backplate with screws. Fuck.
2. Re:It's Intel's fault by citylivin · 2015-12-04 12:11 · Score: 1
  
  "Just use a real backplate with screws. Fuck."
  Oh great, then i have to unbolt the whole motherboard. F that yo....
  For the socket 775 (yes i still run it!) you can buy pins that just clip in. they use the same motherboard holes and a bracket. Much easier than those twisty jobbies that you have to hold the black part while simultaneously twisting and pushing the pin. yuk. Heres a picture of the better design:
  http://www.hardwareasylum.com/...
  The arctic freezer comes with them and two screws to tighten the heatsink down
  http://www.hardwareasylum.com/...
  I always run an aftermarket cooler, even with no overclock because a cool CPU is a happy cpu! And intel stock coolers are fine for some CPUs, but not fine for every cpu they come with, in my experience. Not to mention that some cases are created better than others and cooling is really a holistic thing.
  
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3. Re:It's Intel's fault by Kjella · 2015-12-04 12:23 · Score: 2
  
  You have to line up 4 plastic pegs, and then push and twist (to lock) each of them. While the pegs have a convenient arrow on them to tell you which direction you need to twist to lock them, they DON'T have an indicator for what the starting position should be.
  In an astonishing leap of logic, if turning the peg in the direction of the arrow leads to the final position then turning it the other way leads to the starting position. The peg only moves about 90 degrees and is flat on two sides so with the fan below you start like |_ and twist it counter-clockwise until it's like _| with the round side out. I guess it's time for the corollary to Murphy's law, even if there's no real way to do it wrong someone will find one.
  
  --
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4. Re:It's Intel's fault by sexconker · 2015-12-04 13:38 · Score: 1
  
  Nope, there's enough play in the pegs that they rotate round and round forever when they're not engaged (i.e., when it's in the packaging or you're about to install it).
  The flat side
  And you're right - it's flat on TWO sides. There's NO indication which of the two flat sides should be closest to the heatsink (or that either of them should, for that matter).
  http://www.falconcomputers.co....
  That tab locking mechanism shit seen on the far right of the image is the devil.
5. Re:It's Intel's fault by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 15:06 · Score: 1
  
  What exactly the two of you are smoking? The arrows point in the direction you need to turn to RELEASE the cooler. To install, simply push in with no turning.
6. Re: It's Intel's fault by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 15:54 · Score: 0
  
  You have to line up 4 plastic pegs, and then push and twist (to lock) each of them.
  Holy WTF???
  Are you serious? You have never read the instruction sheet that covers with the CPU?
  You DON'T twist anything to install the heatsink. Just PUSH.
  No wonder you've been having such bad luck with these things...
7. Re:It's Intel's fault by l0n3s0m3phr34k · 2015-12-04 18:45 · Score: 1
  
  Too true, I had to use a screwdriver on my last Intel heatsink because the peg had popped and locked while still inside the retail box.
8. Re: It's Intel's fault by sexconker · 2015-12-04 20:25 · Score: 1
  
  They don't lock if you don't twist them just right.
  The spring loaded locking mechanism is finicky shit.
  I've installed dozens of them.
Star treking by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 08:19 · Score: 0

Star trekking across the universe
pls look at refrence
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCARADb9asE
Re:Correct Title: 3rd Party Does Not Test Properly by UnknowingFool · 2015-12-04 08:27 · Score: 1

Well if you had read the details of the problem, one manufacturer Scythe admitted a problem with their Mugen 4 and Mugen Max coolers on the new Skylake processors. From what I know, these coolers have been around at least a year before Skylake. Their coolers work with architectures as old as LGA775 and AM2. So what you really saying is that any existing product may not work well with all future products.

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Ultimately Intel's fault... by MetricT · 2015-12-04 08:39 · Score: 1, Insightful

I'm curious why my previous post was marked a troll. I *have* worked in academic HPC for over a decade, have assembled dozens of server motherboards over the years, and over two dozen for myself and family. I'm not exactly a newb here.
Intel consumer-grade OEM heatsinks (as of Haswell at least, perhaps they fixed the issue on Skylake OEM heatsinks and I'm unaware) are boat anchors. On two quality Haswell motherboards (Asus H97M and H97I) I have, the OEM heatsink fails to mount sturdily in the motherboard, and pops out with only the slightest jarring.
Third-party heatsinks would be much less necessary if the OEM heatsink would actually do its job.
1. Re:Ultimately Intel's fault... by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 11:58 · Score: 0
  
  You have heavy heat sinks? Lucky you. Most of the stock coolers that came with any of my Intel processors was a cheap copper-cored aluminum fin DISC. At most 12mm tall. Junk, I needed aftermarket cooling.
Garbled headline by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 09:22 · Score: 0

With possible fatal consequences: It has now confirmed coolers can cause severe damage to the CPU and motherboard despite appropriate form. Radiator manufacturers Scythe before dashing and informs its customers.
I already know about Scythe, but I can't understand the last sentence. Who is dashing? What's before?
Warping? by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 11:34 · Score: 0

Hey, you mean my expensive CPU is being crushed by a heatsink? Cheap Intel bastards.
How about we sue these greedy Intel bastards and get a recall on all these cheaply made SkyLake CPUs?
See what happens when you take away stock coolers by Anonymous Coward · 2015-12-04 19:56 · Score: 0

Don't worry, just slap the stock cooler on your 6700k...