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France Will Not Ban Wi-Fi Or Tor, Prime Minister Says (dailydot.com)

Patrick O'Neill writes: Despite requests from police following the deadly Paris attacks, France will not ban the Tor anonymity network or public Wi-Fi, Prime Minister Manual Valls said on Wednesday."A ban of Wi-Fi is not a course of action envisaged," Valls responded on Wednesday. Nor is he in favor of a ban on Tor, which encrypts and masks users' identifying data. "Internet is a freedom, is an extraordinary means of communication between people, it is a benefit to the economy," Valls added.

89 comments

  1. Vive la France by EvilEddie · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Vive la France

    1. Re:Vive la France by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Vive la France

      Politicians say A and do B. Be afraid, very afraid of what the government will really do.
      If you think the US government is bad on transparecy issues you've never lived in France.

    2. Re:Vive la France by Trepidity · · Score: 2

      In this case afaict the politicians never said that public wifi was going to be banned. It was the police who requested public wifi to be banned, which isn't surprising since police always want these kinds of things shut down. The government initially didn't comment on their request, and now commented that it's not in favor.

    3. Re:Vive la France by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly why they didn't ban Tor. Too many juicy targets to snoop on.

    4. Re:Vive la France by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How exactly is EvilEddie's comment "+5 Interesting"???
      Did it suck your cock in some new exciting way?
      Do your laundry?
      Payoff your teachers?
      Dork.

  2. Actions of a few.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The fact this was even proposed shows how disconnected many are from reality. Feel good legislation will not fix anything and will only impose problems on common folk.

    The actions of a few must never dictate the life of the many.

    1. Re:Actions of a few.. by CaptnCrud · · Score: 5, Insightful

      “Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”

        Benjamin Franklin

    2. Re:Actions of a few.. by Viol8 · · Score: 2

      Problem is - a soundbite sentence like that can have its goalposts moved to suit either side of the argument. Well all surrender a certain amount of freedom for security. If that wasn't the case you'd have anarchy and while that might appeal to a small group of posturing delusionals, the reality is you'd have murder, theft. rape , you name it, with true absolute freedom.

    3. Re:Actions of a few.. by MightyMartian · · Score: 1, Insightful

      If I was in charge, the moment a senior level of a police or security service made such an utterance in public, he'd immediately fired and permanently blacklisted.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    4. Re:Actions of a few.. by cecurry · · Score: 0

      It sounds like you aren't aware of the distinction between "anarchy" the political theory and "anarchy' in a colloquial sense. This distinction is critical to understand why those "posturing delusionals" you refer to are actually not delusional. Secondly, we already have murder, theft, and rape, and plenty of it is sanctioned by state and private power. Anarchists recognize immoral behavior by state, private, and individuals.

    5. Re:Actions of a few.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The French Police are apparently under the impression that an actual police state is a good thing. Perhaps they forgot the "liberté" part of their national motto?

    6. Re:Actions of a few.. by delt0r · · Score: 2

      It can be argued that we do indeed have these freedoms. Since you are free to commit murder, theft and rape, nothing is stopping you for the most part. And indeed people obviously do that. However we enforce consequences to these acts after the fact.

      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
    7. Re:Actions of a few.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      How's that freedom of speech working out for you?

    8. Re:Actions of a few.. by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Nobody really wants to discuss the real issue, out of political correctness and fear of becoming a "hater".

      We have counter productive statements, nullifying each other, coming as a directive.

      1) If you see something, say something
      2) Don't be a racist,.

      These two things are incompatible with each other, as we found out in San Bernadino, where a neighbor had suspicions but didn't want to be a racist (#2) so they didn't report them (#1) . So, the question is, which is worse, the killing of 14 people or being a racist? Finely nuanced positions are useless. Directions need to be clear and simple for all the simple people out there.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    9. Re:Actions of a few.. by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Those shouting "Anarchy" in the face of Libertarians are simpleton binary choices. And because they cannot fathom liberty, they are on the side of the Statists (Socialists, Fascists, Nazis ...). Understanding that statism tends towards tyranny, I've chosen to side with liberty. Being free is messy. Fascists always run on a platform of order (at least the trains run on time).

      Me, I would rather play in the mud than be afraid of tyrannical order.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    10. Re:Actions of a few.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or the one.....

    11. Re:Actions of a few.. by freeze128 · · Score: 1

      I don't see how they could implement it reliably anyway.

    12. Re:Actions of a few.. by gstoddart · · Score: 0

      Odd for the French to not be surrendering. ;-)

      Je blague, je blague ...

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    13. Re:Actions of a few.. by Guybrush_T · · Score: 1

      Yeah, because you always know the right solution to any problem you encounter, right ?

      Being wrong is absolutely ok if you are able to listen to what others say and change your opinion (that's called learning and this is good !). This is the only sane way to go. But politicians can hardly do this because the press (and the whole society) would only talk about how wrong their previous declaration was.

    14. Re:Actions of a few.. by cecurry · · Score: 0

      I think you, like most Americans, are confused about what "liberty" means. For most Americans, "liberty" and "freedom" means "absence of government control", but it does not take into account (like the historical European meaning of libertarian) the control of private forms of power, such as economic control by a corporation. I think this would attribute your inclusion of "socialism" as a "statist" believe, although in fact socialism has no real attachment to a state.

    15. Re:Actions of a few.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is not what they said, it is the people voting to ignore constitutional protections.

      AFAIC willfully attempting to subvert the constitution while holding office or other governmental position should be a crime.

    16. Re:Actions of a few.. by amorsen · · Score: 1

      The quote is actually:

      "They who can give up essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty not safety."

      Benjamin Franklin is commenting on those who will give up the liberty to tax a rich family just because that rich family donates weapons to the ongoing war.

      It is interesting that Benjamin Franklin considered government taxation not just a liberty, but an essential one.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    17. Re:Actions of a few.. by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      Finely nuanced positions are useless. Directions need to be clear and simple for all the simple people out there.

      Unfortunately, the real world isn't always simple, and finely nuanced positions are often the only sensible positions to adopt.

      By the way, you forgot to mention the alternative ending to your "being a racist" story, where the totally innocent but coincidentally foreign/Muslim/shy neighbour gets shot when they panic in reaction to the unexpected, unjustified and violent intrusion into their home by the police and security services as a result of the racist/paranoid report.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    18. Re:Actions of a few.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Alternative ending....totally innocent....unjustified? You do realize they DID kill 14 people, and it didn't take long for the authorities to trace down their radical beliefs once identified as the attackers? Meaning, the alternative ending at worst would be: foreign radicals planning terrorist attack gets shot when they panic in reaction to the unexpected raid by the police and security services as a result of the vigilant citizen's report. I'm OK with that alternative ending.

      Now if you want to go way off script into irrelevant hypotheticals, then go ahead. I can do the same. Police could find a bomb, police could find a child sex ring, police could find mounds of Mounds candy bars. Or police could look into the report of a suspected terrorist and find instead that the neighbor is actually a reformed Muslim who denouces the hateful and dangerous writings of Islam and just wants peace, or maybe a little red headed child living alone, or maybe CmdrTaco is there eating a pizza. Yup, all about equally possible inside my irrational twisted mind. Oooh, could even be a combination of child sex ring and CmdrTaco eating a pizza. That would definitly make Slashdot headlines (albeit a few days after it hits other sites).

    19. Re:Actions of a few.. by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Corporations are constructs of the state. The exist only because the power supports their existence. All power is derived by those exerting it. Not all power is good, not all power is bad.

      However, without a defined and meaningful limitation of power, tyranny will always creep into power.

      Socialism is a power structure that depends on the state to support it. Taxation required and the forced confiscation of earnings of the workers needed to keep it functioning is the same power tyrants use. There is no difference. Socialism is a form of Statism. Your view that Socialism has no attachment to a state is simply incorrect, as it requires a state to tax the workers (forcibly take) in order to give to those that it chooses to support. Unless you can name a Socialist system that doesn't contain confiscatory taxation policy, your point is simply wrong.

      People opposing Liberty are almost (if not) always statists, because they fear it.

      Just so you know, I don't believe the government has any right to the earnings of the workers, especially via taxation. The fact that we have become accustomed to it speaks loudly to how far we've fallen in the last 120 years. My view is that ALL taxes are regressive, and I have tons of examples as evidence. Simply put, the rich and powerful will always be able to avoid taxes where the middle class cannot. Ultimately, the rich can move, pay people to avoid taxes, and otherwise simply not consume their wealth in support of the State.

      I also don't believe in equality of outcome. Not everyone has equal ability. Giving trophies to everyone just devalues the trophies. There is only one Wimbledon Trophy, only one Heisman. It is what makes those valuable. It is also not possible for everyone to win one. Equal outcome is tyranny. Giving a Heisman to everyone negates its value.

      I do believe in equal opportunity. Everyone should have a chance to win the Heisman, or Wimbledon, but those that work hard, have excellent athletic abilities and the willpower to achieve should be rewarded. Taxes are not a reward for success, it is a way for socialists to punish those that they think achieved unfairly. And if you listen closely, you can hear it in every taxation discussion "Unfair" "Fair Share" "Evil one percent".

      I just don't buy into that form of jealousy.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    20. Re:Actions of a few.. by ultranova · · Score: 1

      So, the question is, which is worse, the killing of 14 people or being a racist? Finely nuanced positions are useless. Directions need to be clear and simple for all the simple people out there.

      I think it's extremely ironic that you whine about "statists" when your own post reads like a Nazi propaganda guide.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    21. Re:Actions of a few.. by Gavagai80 · · Score: 1

      So, the question is, which is worse, the killing of 14 people or being a racist?

      Which is worse, a world where 14 people out of 7 billion are killed occasionally or a world where everyone is instructed to inform on their neighbors whenever they have poorly supported suspicions? How long do you think geeks will last in a world where behavior that looks odd or scary or antisocial to the average person is reported? What if your garage project looks like a bomb to someone, or a rumor circulates that you're a hacker?

      --
      This space intentionally left blank
    22. Re:Actions of a few.. by SirSlud · · Score: 0

      You believe in an ideological world that has not, does not, nor will ever exist.

      --
      "Old man yells at systemd"
    23. Re:Actions of a few.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      “Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”

        Benjamin Franklin

      Or Churchill, depending on the humor of the day.

    24. Re:Actions of a few.. by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      Yes, in that case, it would have had a positive outcome if they had been reported. Good thing no-one else would ever make a mistake and report neighbours who weren't about to go on a killing spree, I guess.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    25. Re:Actions of a few.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Serfs said this of freemen in the times of old.

    26. Re:Actions of a few.. by cecurry · · Score: 1

      You are correct that corporations are constructs of the state. I might have used a more general example by saying "owners of vast property", which does not require the "state" in every case, but in most modern contexts, it in fact does. James Madison once commented that the purpose of a government was to "protect the minority of the opulent from the majority". That's an extremely strong statement about the nature of a state from the founder of what's regarded as the prototypical modern republic: it exists primarily to protect property rights. Of course, one does not need a state to protect property rights, and a state not exist to protect property rights, but this is almost entirely how property and the state are related in modern governments today. And this presents a stark oversight in how modern "libertarians" think. They overwhelmingly view the state as an agent that exists to VIOLATE the rights of property owners, and this is ridiculous. That could conceivably be true, but it contradicts the reality of modern governance, because as you pointed out, corporations are an excellent example of the state sanctioning and protecting property owners. The nature of the state as a protector of property rights was the very thing that brought about socialism, communism, and anarchism, all of which to varying degrees were in deep opposition to the existence of a state. I suspect the reason many here in America do not understand this is because of the deep and unabbating propaganda of property owners, most of which imagine the U.S.S.R. as a "communist state" (an oxymoronic statement), which serves as a lesson that communities need to be brought under the strict discipline of property owners, else we get what’s called “communism” in the form of the U.S.S.R. This was a tactic that was certainly used during the struggle for labor rights in the beginning of the 1900’s, all the way through the 1960’s and is still used today. I also suspect that the core beliefs held by libertarians in the tradition sense (which really meant “anarchism” — as in the political theory) would generally be accepted by the public if they had any understand of these things. Liberty means freedom from state coercion, and it also means freedom from the coercion of private power. Power is not agnostic to freedom: it is in deep opposition to it. In particular in the United States, there is a very real and documented problem of wealth distribution. This isn't about "jealousy", it's about people being gradually displaced from the ability to share in the vast resources that are available. And since the 1970's the problem has been getting worse. As all traditional libertarians realize, this causes a loss of liberty, because as power and wealth become concentrated, the important choices are in the hands of fewer and fewer individuals.

    27. Re:Actions of a few.. by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      The fact this was even proposed shows how disconnected many are from reality. Feel good legislation will not fix anything and will only impose problems on common folk.

      I think it was good it was proposed, because it got people talking.

      Too many people are probably thinking "those terrorists use the Internet. I don't use WiFi, or whatever this "tor" thing is. So ban it."

      And as we all know from that famous quote, well, they'll take away everyone who isn't X until you're left and no one will defend you.

      So getting someone to publicly say what probably a lot of people are thinking means you can debate about it. Because probably a good 20% of the French public were probably thinking it.

      Same goes for like Syrian refugees - if someone doesn't say "These people are terrorists! Why are we letting them in" (or even that idiot with the software licensing thing), well, it just seethes and builds and sentiment grows until it's unstoppable.

      So having an idiot open their mouth, say something stupid, lets us debate about it.

      Yes, that also includes Donald Trump. Because honestly, while what he says is stupid, the fact is, it's forcing debate, and those who harbor those feelings quietly will be freer to speak up and have those debates.

      You can't deny people feel that way. And the best way is to address those feelings in public on its merits under the spotlight than in the backroom.

    28. Re:Actions of a few.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... Feel good legislation will not fix anything ...

      That's not the point: The point is to blame something, then control that something. It's acting on the problem, then telling everyone the problem is better. Reality is not relevant to the process.

      Government ostensibly use laws to change behaviour. But that works only when the chance of getting caught is high. Which, mass surveillance aside, indirectly depends on the number of people committing the same crime. For problems like nudity, prostitution, drugs, the human need for these things means there will always be a large crowd to hide in, and a fresh supply of 'criminals'.

      So sensible government needs to weigh the cost of enforcement/punishment with the damage done to society. Note; damage to society includes gang wars because selling illegal goods/services allows monopoly-type prices, and the damage to families because they're reduced to a single parent with the stigma of criminal 'association' (and in the USA, prison debts). As mentioned in a thread a few days ago, governments rarely spend time finding the balance-point. This is because governments tend to be run by blanket policies like 'war on terror' or 'tough on crime', which encourage greater oppression of the citizenry.

      France already has little privacy via the banning of quality encryption, reversible password salts and the inevitable scooping of meta-data, it didn't prevent 2 terrorist attacks this year. Banning wi-fi would mean hotel customers would be denied e-mail, Skype, internet blogging/messaging/chatting. It wouldn't be practical to ban all public-access wi-fi. Banning Tor wouldn't stop terrorists communicating among themselves, as recent calamities have proven. This is the police blaming Tor for something that didn't happen.

      The actions of a few must never dictate the life of the many.

      Alas, the more common policy is pandering to the below-average 'majority'.

    29. Re:Actions of a few.. by jacob8404 · · Score: 1

      It has nothing to do with freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is about expressing a private citizen's opinion. As a private citizen, anyone can campaign for banning anything they (don't) like, but the role of a senior public official is not to express random opinions but to preserve what the people regard as their fundamental rights and freedoms. If you are the CFO of a large corporation and you recommend to the Board that the best course of action would be to donate half the assets to ISIS, transfer the rest to a tax haven and blow up the tax office building just to be sure, you are going to get sacked at the very least, and claiming freedom of speech will not save you.

    30. Re:Actions of a few.. by jacob8404 · · Score: 1

      The interesting thing about France is that it has actually two police forces, the Police National and the Gendarmerie. They somewhat compete against each other, don't always like each other very much and occasionally throw sticks into each other's wheels. I don't know, maybe the French are onto something there.

    31. Re:Actions of a few.. by erapert · · Score: 1

      Holy smokes we need more people like you! Please run for office!

    32. Re:Actions of a few.. by Cruciform · · Score: 2

      If you're a white, well-off, adult male in a population that tends towards those people being in power (whether in politics or business) then you're not going to be hurt by a lack of oversight in the day to day operations of society.

      If you're one of the groups sidelined by whatever the majority believes (whether that's racial supremacy, religious nuttery, etc) then having state protections can be good.

      Making sure that the political machine has safeguards in place to prevent any group that ends up sidelined or in conflict doesn't become a target for abuse by the state also has to be a consideration.

      It's a delicate balance.

      I'd rather have a degree of protection for my neighbors who have a history of being stepped on, than an illusory freedom that lets robber barons run amok over us as well.

      If we didn't have such a problem with greed / material wealth gathering, a lot of the issues that trickle out from that would likely end up with a society that has a lot fewer rules.

    33. Re:Actions of a few.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I do believe in equal opportunity. Everyone should have a chance to win the Heisman, or Wimbledon, but those that work hard, have excellent athletic abilities and the willpower to achieve should be rewarded. Taxes are not a reward for success, it is a way for socialists to punish those that they think achieved unfairly. And if you listen closely, you can hear it in every taxation discussion "Unfair" "Fair Share" "Evil one percent".

      I just don't buy into that form of jealousy.

      Look at what happened to Somalia. That's what happens when you don't have a functioning state. To have a functioning state you need resources. Unless the state is going to control the means of production this means taxes.
      Those with wealth could not have access to as much resource as they do if there where not advanced societies producing said resources.
      There is also the matter of morality. If there is no morality there is nothing wrong with taking from anyone including the rich. However you seem to propose a system where it is not ok to tax but it is ok to let people suffer instead. I reject that as immoral and based on selfish greed.

      Taxation required and the forced confiscation of earnings of the workers needed to keep it functioning is the same power tyrants use.

      The difference is democracy. The lack of constraint beyond physics, power and wealth that you propose is what would lead to genuine tyranny.

      Just so you know, I don't believe the government has any right to the earnings of the workers, especially via taxation.

      The authority is the same that allows them to say something is illegal (e.g. theft) or someone shouldn't pollute the river for everyone else.

      My view is that ALL taxes are regressive, and I have tons of examples as evidence.

      So you think there should be no state? Or that the state should control the means of production? Both those are worse solutions than currently exist in western democracies.
      I very much doubt you could proof that all taxes are regressive. That would mean you could map out the effects throughout society of every single method of taxation, which would also mean showing that the benefits of such taxation could never outweigh the downside. (You might be able to play with the definition of regressive, but that would be a semantic game. This would be easiest if you ignore the benefits from a state being able to do things because of taxation)

    34. Re:Actions of a few.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He can't run because all the opposition has to do is present a poor orphan and handicapped little girl of colour. The plebs will agree that he is a monster unworthy of holding office. We can't achieve great things unless we radicalise our own peoples. Radicalising ourselves is also the only way to oppose Islam and Daesh (ISIS) and therefore the only way to survive. Because I don't believe a bunch of faggots parading with dildos and signing Imagine will hold long against Islamist militants. Islam will run over us unencumbered whit our 'tolerance' values. Diversity is not strength. Fuck that Marxist cult.

    35. Re:Actions of a few.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was also funny to see all the #BlackLiveMatter niggers claim San Bernadino's murders was done by a WHITE MEN.

      Then the #MasculinitySoFragile feminists came and blame it on TOXIC MASCULINITY.

      Both agree the shooters were misogynists and white supremacists before checking any facts.

      Once the FBI reported they where brown islamists, all the twitter hate mob went away without further comments.

      Sure "2) Son't be racist" is stupid. But "2) Don't be racist, unless it is against white", that is dangerous. And that is the world one the we live in. #DiversityIsWhiteGenocide

    36. Re:Actions of a few.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We already live in that world. If you are a men you will be harassed, stalked is not expelled from public parks. If you are white every discomfort will be blamed on you claiming racism and you will be ban from entering "colored space". Your enlightenment begin with yourself; Do your research. I will not provide citation because this is the maximum effort I am willing to do for someone I do not care about.

    37. Re:Actions of a few.. by LongearedBat · · Score: 2

      In your view, who/what would pay for a society's infrastructure?

    38. Re:Actions of a few.. by psychonaut · · Score: 1

      Corporations are constructs of the state.

      Yes, but so are people, nowadays. You try getting anywhere in life without an official piece of paper proving who you are and what state you're affiliated with.

      Socialism is a power structure that depends on the state to support it. Taxation required and the forced confiscation of earnings of the workers needed to keep it functioning is the same power tyrants use. There is no difference. Socialism is a form of Statism. Your view that Socialism has no attachment to a state is simply incorrect, as it requires a state to tax the workers (forcibly take) in order to give to those that it chooses to support. Unless you can name a Socialist system that doesn't contain confiscatory taxation policy, your point is simply wrong.

      I can't name one which has actually operated in modern times, but there have been such systems in the distant past, and there are advocates for such systems in the future. The "socialism" advocated by Marx and Engels (a term they used interchangeably with "communism") was to be a world in which money and states had been abolished; without these there would be no "confiscatory taxation", but rather a contribution and distribution of wealth according to individual abilities and needs. When you say that "socialism is a form of statism", you are probably attacking ideologies such as Leninism and its variants (and maybe also much "softer" systems such as so-called "democratic socialism" popular in Western Europe). Lenin also nominally believed in socialism and communism (in the Marxian senses of the words) as an end-goal, but held that the only way of reaching this goal was for the state to first take control and build up the capitalist economy. He called this "state capitalism", and eventually redefined the term "socialism" to be synonymous with it. Seventy years after his revolutionaries seized power, the Russian people were still living under state capitalism with no real socialism in sight.

    39. Re:Actions of a few.. by rainmouse · · Score: 1
      Given in the UK, for example, the largest 19 US owned companies currently pay 3% of the 26% corporate tax. When people call that unfair, it is not jealousy.
      http://www.theguardian.com/com...

      Given all these companies executives also pay little to no personal tax and they pay their employees beneath the living wage, benefits are required for those individuals to survive. These benefits are indirectly being given to these so called 'constructs of the state', while the state is on it's hands and knees before them being milked for all it's worth. To call it a Stalinist to actually ask the wealthy elite and mega corporations to pay anything remotely like what the little guys on the street pay stinks of either outrageous, brainwashed naivety at best. This is not a demand for equality of outcome. It's equality of the rules by which everyone is forced to play by. The way you illustrate this as some kind of underachieving, petty, socialistic jealousy is both astonishing and dangerous.

    40. Re:Actions of a few.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with your theory is that it's completely destroyed by the fact that some of the most progressive, free, healthy, nations on Earth are heavily socialist, like Norway, Iceland, Sweden, and New Zealand.

      The reason for the disparity between what you believe to be the case, and reality, is that you're viewing the world from an entirely selfish standpoint. You're suggesting taxes are taken forcibly because you personal do not wish to contribute to society and because you believe that you would be better served by anarchy because you believe you could fend for yourself. You probably couldn't, and most people can't (which is why they're fleeing Syria right now) and when faced with the alternative you're proposing most people realise that taxes are in fact something worth paying. Most people want a police force to keep their neighbourhood free from crime, most people want a fire brigade to stop their house burning down, or to rescue them from a burning car rather than hope a passer by will do it, and most people want roads, and schools and so on and so forth.

      "Taxes are not a reward for success, it is a way for socialists to punish those that they think achieved unfairly."

      Again this is really a theory you've come up with based on a false assumption, you're arguing that success is always entirely about fair achievement, and yet some of the wealthiest people on Earth have achieved nothing in acquiring their wealth, in fact, their efforts are often the anti-thesis of achievement. Being born into a family worth billions and inheriting that and consuming way beyond your fair share of the earth's resources can't even remotely be classed as an achievement. You claim you believe in equality of opportunity, but if that's true then that means you must inherently believe that there must be limits on what can be passed from father to son, or mother to daughter, because if you allow a parents wealth to determine in any way the outcomes of the life of a child, then you've inherently broken your claim of supporting equal opportunities. There's nothing equal about a poor kid from the Bronx getting less of a chance in life because the rich kid from Orange County had daddy pay for him and line him up a job. To achieve equality of opportunity you'd need to ban inheritance and nepotism amongst many other things.

      You've come to the conclusion you have because you believe capitalism is flawless and perfect, and yet it's still entirely full of flaws - certainly less than most other systems, but most definitely not entirely flawless as you proclaim.

      In the real world, the best countries seem to have a healthy blend of both Capitalism and Socialism. Personally I'm a firm believer in the idea that extremism never works, whether we're talking about religious extremism, or political extremism. The healthiest, happiest, wealthiest countries are typically those that sit closest to the centre, taking the best bits of every system. Your preferred brand of capitalism (which doesn't actually exist, thank fuck) is as bad as your perceived view of socialism (that of Soviet Russia).

    41. Re:Actions of a few.. by sociocapitalist · · Score: 1

      Corporations are constructs of the state. The exist only because the power supports their existence. All power is derived by those exerting it. Not all power is good, not all power is bad.

      However, without a defined and meaningful limitation of power, tyranny will always creep into power.

      Corporations are constructs of capitalism, given recognition and power by states. Reading the rest of what you wrote I'm not sure how you propose to define and limit the power of the corporations or the rich and super-rich without....society (the word society of course being very closely related to the word socialism).

      Socialism is a power structure that depends on the state to support it. Taxation required and the forced confiscation of earnings of the workers needed to keep it functioning is the same power tyrants use. There is no difference. Socialism is a form of Statism.

      States of every type are power structures that collect taxes and all forms of states are applicable to the same claims that you make for socialism. You cannot have a state without collecting taxes. The difference being that in socialism at least some of that money comes back to the people of the state.

      Your view that Socialism has no attachment to a state is simply incorrect, as it requires a state to tax the workers (forcibly take) in order to give to those that it chooses to support. Unless you can name a Socialist system that doesn't contain confiscatory taxation policy, your point is simply wrong.

      Again this applies to all forms of state and is not only applicable to socialism.

      People opposing Liberty are almost (if not) always statists, because they fear it.

      Or because we prefer a balance between liberty and the benefits that one has from society. I do not believe it realistic to believe that you could have a society of total liberty and be assured of keeping that liberty for any length of time as other societies will come and impose themselves on yours.

      Just so you know, I don't believe the government has any right to the earnings of the workers, especially via taxation. The fact that we have become accustomed to it speaks loudly to how far we've fallen in the last 120 years. My view is that ALL taxes are regressive, and I have tons of examples as evidence.

      How do you propose to have the benefits of society without taxes to pay for them?

      Simply put, the rich and powerful will always be able to avoid taxes where the middle class cannot. Ultimately, the rich can move, pay people to avoid taxes, and otherwise simply not consume their wealth in support of the State.

      Which is why education should be free, along with life cost support, to those students who work hard enough to justify the societal (yes socialism pokes it's head up here) costs of educating them to strengthen the society and make it possible for the poor to break out of the cyclical existence they can only know when education is not free. With an educated society, change can be made to eventually remove the loopholes the rich and powerful use to avoid paying their own debt to society (there it is again).

      I also don't believe in equality of outcome. Not everyone has equal ability. Giving trophies to everyone just devalues the trophies. There is only one Wimbledon Trophy, only one Heisman. It is what makes those valuable. It is also not possible for everyone to win one. Equal outcome is tyranny. Giving a Heisman to everyone negates its value.

      Agreed

      I do believe in equal opportunity. Everyone should have a chance to win the Heisman, or Wimbledon, but those that work hard, have excellent athletic abilities and the willpower to achieve should be rewarded.

      See previous comment about free education. There is no possibility for equal opportunity without societal (oops I did it again)

      --
      blindly antisocialist = antisocial
    42. Re:Actions of a few.. by dave420 · · Score: 1

      You are confusing socialism with a socialist government. Of course a socialist government is going to have an attachment to the state.

      You might want to brush up on your reading before showing everyone just how much you think of yourself.

    43. Re:Actions of a few.. by dave420 · · Score: 1

      He actually sounds more like a page or two from the Stasi handbook. They were all about reporting suspicions to the authorities. The irony is palpable, and totally lost on that muppet.

    44. Re:Actions of a few.. by dave420 · · Score: 1

      Dereliction of duty is not protected by free speech.

    45. Re:Actions of a few.. by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      It can be argued that we do indeed have these freedoms. Since you are free to commit murder, theft and rape, nothing is stopping you for the most part. And indeed people obviously do that. However we enforce consequences to these acts after the fact.

      The real trick is that you are free to do absolutely anything so long as you don't complain when others do the same right back to you. You want to go out and murder people? Fine, but don't complain when you receive a death sentence. You want to be a thief? Fine, but don't complain when others don't respect your property rights.

      Where you find injustice and lack of freedom is when the "enforcement" involves a disproportionate response, doing to other people what they did not do to you. A death sentence for theft, for example, or fines or prison time for unapproved speech.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    46. Re:Actions of a few.. by ultranova · · Score: 1

      I also don't believe in equality of outcome. Not everyone has equal ability. Giving trophies to everyone just devalues the trophies. There is only one Wimbledon Trophy, only one Heisman. It is what makes those valuable. It is also not possible for everyone to win one.

      Clothes aren't trophies: they let me walk on the street without being causing lusty riots. Food isn't trophy: it fuel for my body. Education is not a trophy: it's a way to updating my abilities. A vacation is not a trophy: it's a way to unwind and see the world while I'm at it.

      Most things in life aren't tennis championships.

      Taxes are not a reward for success, it is a way for socialists to punish those that they think achieved unfairly.

      No, taxes are a way of funding the machinery of society, while redistribution is a way of flattening the pyramid of power, both of which make the world a better place for most of its inhabitants.

      I just don't buy into that form of jealousy.

      No, you buy into a much worse form of jealousy where someone else getting something good is a bad thing because it means that whatever good things you got don't mark you as special anymore. In other words, you're an authoritarian.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

  3. It's the government, not the country by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Please stop saying "[country] will/did do this ...".
    Instead, say "The current government of [country] will/did do this ...". Governments come and go.

    1. Re:It's the government, not the country by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Governments represent the people in the country, So it is not a far reach to say the country will or will not do something. The country may do something else later, when the government changes. Unless you think people are confused and think the region of earth inside a country's border is going to make policy. Or maybe you think that people are under the assumption that the people are not going to ban Wi-Fi, etc, but the government is, so using the word country is misleading.

    2. Re:It's the government, not the country by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      and the name of the land mass run and generally managed by the government is the name of the country they have chosen.

      If the government changes, it could very well change their name.

    3. Re:It's the government, not the country by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 2

      You knew what it meant. I knew what it meant. Everyone knew what it meant.

      What else could it have meant?

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    4. Re:It's the government, not the country by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please stop saying "[country] will/did do this ...".
      Instead, say "The current government of [country] will/did do this ...". Governments come and go.

      Nitpicking much? Everyone knows that when a "country" does something, that it is due to the current government. "USA went to war with Iraq" -> Government sent forces to Iraq. It is hidden in the message.

    5. Re:It's the government, not the country by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      Governments represent the people in the country,

      Unfortunately, that is often very far from the truth.

      Much of what is wrong with the world today comes down to supposedly democratic electoral systems that quite blatantly do not lead to governments that represent the views of many/most of the electorate, combined with a feedback loop that makes the problem very hard to fix.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    6. Re:It's the government, not the country by radarskiy · · Score: 1

      Why do you hate synecdoche?

    7. Re:It's the government, not the country by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They do still represent them....maybe not well, but thats still how it is. I really hope the caliphate doesn't end up representing me. I think they would do a very poor job of it being that I'm white and not Muslim.

    8. Re:It's the government, not the country by rsborg · · Score: 1

      Please stop saying "[country] will/did do this ...".
      Instead, say "The current government of [country] will/did do this ...". Governments come and go.

      How in the world was this upvoted? The leader for a country talks for the country. This is especially true in France - in some ways they are more libertarian than the US (hint: when I was there 10 years ago they didn't even pre-pay their income taxes - if you don't give your 80% of estimated income to IRS in the US you get fined up the wazoo).

      In other ways France is a lot more authoritarian - the leader speaks for the group. They talk in terms of consensus even in political realms. Where were you for the last 100 press releases that this guy posted using exactly the same framing?

      In short, your call for "correctness" here is ... misplaced.

      --
      Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
  4. Hold up. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Forward-thinking, no knee-jerk reactions, no inflammatory rhetoric to rile up his base, not immediately jumping on an open opportunity for a power-grab... are we sure this guy's a politician?

    1. Re:Hold up. by Earthquake+Retrofit · · Score: 2

      Forward-thinking, no knee-jerk reactions, no inflammatory rhetoric to rile up his base, not immediately jumping on an open opportunity for a power-grab... are we sure this guy's a politician?

      This Prime Minister SHOULD be praised. When a politician does the right thing, he or she should get just as many hyperbolic e-mails as when they screw up. Yeah, yeah, I'm well aware I'm living in a dream world, but It's always been harder to build up than tear down.

      --
      Fifty years of Yippie! 1968-2018
    2. Re:Hold up. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The good cop in a good cop bad cop routine is still a cop who's trying to make you do things against your own best interest.

  5. We are being bred for slavery. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "...our impulses are being redirected. We are living in an artificially induced state of consciousness that resembles sleep⦠...the movement was begun eight months ago by a small group of scientists who discovered, quite by accident, these signals being sent through television... ...the poor and the underclass are growing. Racial justice and human rights are nonexistent. They have created a repressive society and we are their unwitting accomplices... ...their intention to rule rests with the annihilation of consciousness.

    We have been lulled into a trance. They have made us indifferent, to ourselves, to others, we are focused only on our own gain. We ha... ...please understand, they are safe as long as they are not discovered. That is their primary method of survival. Keep us asleep, keep us selfish, keep us sedated... ...they are dismantling the sleeping middle class. More and more people are becoming poor.

    We are their cattle. We are being bred for slavery."

    1. Re:We are being bred for slavery. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just had to figure out where this came from. David Icke?

    2. Re:We are being bred for slavery. by ItsJustAPseudonym · · Score: 1

      I'm going to go with the movie "They Live", by John Carpenter.

  6. "Not in favor of" not the same as "won't happen" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Also, there's a "yet" missing.

  7. Everybody pretends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anarchy means absolute chaos.

    What it generally is taken to mean is 'self governance'.

    The old west before the marshalls came out would be an example.

    You could attempt to get away with whatever you want, taking other's land, murdering random people for their valuables, etc.

    Where that falls apart is: Do that to enough people without cowing them completely and they will return the favor unto you.

    Just because there isn't 'rule of law' doesn't mean there aren't rules and consequences. They might be difficult to find out, or they might be posted on a sign as you enter town. It really is no different than any major country today. Trying to understand the laws, whether amongst a disparate group of anarchists, or within your own country/provide/city are likely to be just as clear or opaque.

    1. Re:Everybody pretends.... by cecurry · · Score: 0

      No. Again, the distinction between the colloquial meaning of "anarchy" needs to be juxtaposed with the historical, political, and relevant theory of anarchy. In a colloquial (and quite modern) sense, "anarchy" does mean, roughly, "chaos", but that meaning is entirely artificial in the sense that it ignores the entire historical theory and context of political anarchy. You are conflating the two. Political anarchy, however, varies widely in it's forms, and therefore can have an admittedly nebulous definition. The core principle, however, might be summed up as this: individuals are inherently moral, power is inherently corrupt and immoral, and one needs to resolve this conflict in order to achieve both individual freedom and a moral society. The various ways this conflict is addressed is the bases of the great variety of forms of anarchy. It does NOT mean "there are no rules", and it does NOT mean "social chaos". In almost every conception, an anarchist society has a great amount of order. For more on the varied forms of anarchism and history, I highly recommend the writings of George Woodcock.

    2. Re:Everybody pretends.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. Again, the distinction between the colloquial meaning of "anarchy" needs to be juxtaposed with the historical, political, and relevant theory of anarchy. In a colloquial (and quite modern) sense, "anarchy" does mean, roughly, "chaos", but that meaning is entirely artificial in the sense that it ignores the entire historical theory and context of political anarchy. You are conflating the two.

      Political anarchy, however, varies widely in it's forms, and therefore can have an admittedly nebulous definition. The core principle, however, might be summed up as this: individuals are inherently moral, power is inherently corrupt and immoral, and one needs to resolve this conflict in order to achieve both individual freedom and a moral society. The various ways this conflict is addressed is the bases of the great variety of forms of anarchy. It does NOT mean "there are no rules", and it does NOT mean "social chaos". In almost every conception, an anarchist society has a great amount of order.

      For more on the varied forms of anarchism and history, I highly recommend the writings of George Woodcock.

      You seem to have confused "naivety" with "anarchy".

      People provably are not intrinsically moral (chose the existence of any imoral person you like), and if you have a rule it's existence implies that someone at some point in time did whatever the rule says you can't do.

  8. Communications is also an anti-terror weapon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's a vent for angry people to express their anger in a non-destructive manner, rather than get more frustrated to the point of actions.
    Anonymous speech is a way for them to be confident that their words won't bite them in the ass if they have to express extreme anger.

    See, when you do mass surveillance, and you say "your words are watched so watch what you say", you are actually saying "your words are watched by people with their world view and their grudges and their opinions and biases, so be careful not to contradict their world view, or trigger their grudges or contradict their opinions". As if there is a ruling class and a ruled. Slaves and masters. It drives extremism too.

    So we have this right. The right to free speech, and we have this other right, the right to privacy, and you surveillance lot, you need to get back within society and respect those rights. The UK in particular, what you are doing in the donut, its not legal.You know its not legal, you know they keep trying to pass the damn surveillance law, you know Parliament keeps rejecting it, and you know Parliament is the top body above Cameron, yet you keep doing it anyway. You need to come back within the boundaries of the UK system.

    We had Jacqui Smith's soundbite: "the right to life trumps the right to free speech", it's a false dichotomy. Suppressing basic rights drives extremism. We booted her out of office, and good riddance. Parliament said no. Now we have that other woman in Home Secretary (they can't put men in that office because their porn surfing history is leverage to foreign powers) and she is trying the same "what if your kids die because you don't let us control free speech?" She won't last long either.

    Stop following these surveillance idiots, get back within the legal framework of the democracy. /rant

  9. and government can be topled by aepervius · · Score: 2

    People have the courage to protest and go to the barricade in some countries, and France is among them. Make a rule which enrage most french, expect to have nasty consequences. See De Gaulle and the protests of 68.

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
  10. Nor U.S. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Neither will the United States, as that will be viewed as an attack on our freedoms, our free speech, our liberties, and will result in war.

  11. It's not because they're progressive. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's because they can't.

  12. Trump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Are you hearing this, fool?

  13. Police speaking against the govt. The end is near. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When police speaks against the government then these are the last moments of such government.
    This is the only force government may trust. Army is not one.
    But when even the police has enough, then this is the end for such government.

  14. Tor-n by hyades1 · · Score: 1

    So now I'm really confused. Is the French government allowing Tor to stay feral because they can tame it whenever they want, and the cops were too stupid to know?

    Or did the question come up because Tor reallyis a good way to maintain a fairly decent level of privacy, and the cops were hoping to get rid of it?

    --
    I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
  15. The United States will. by Etherwalk · · Score: 2

    Neither will the United States, as that will be viewed as an attack on our freedoms, our free speech, our liberties, and will result in war.

    No. Not enough people care about it. Not enough people outside the tech world understand it. And if you rise in rebellion, you will find nobody rises with you.

    Eventually the intelligence and law enforcement communities will find a boogeyman big enough that they can use it to get the rest of the government to support fucking over everyone by making encryption illegal so that mass surveillance works again. Look at how they responded to Snowden--by making *corporations* hold on to mass surveillance data, they were able to get mass surveillance renewed. The only situation in which they might stop is if they are able to penetrate the encryption entirely.

    It may take another terrorist attack on the scale of 9/11. But eventually, such an attack will happen. It's just too easy to cause mass panic if you have a few people willing to do your bidding.

  16. Opportunity by CustomDesigned · · Score: 1

    Police are not thinking on all cylinders. Anonymity works both ways. They need some undercover agents on Tor joining (and reporting on) plans ASAP (at least to the extent they are leaked to new recruits). I suspect, however, that ISIS recruits have to meet physically with handlers at some point - and at that point the undercover work becomes exceedingly dangerous.

  17. Lots of WiFi by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

    The largest number of WiFi nodes I have seen in one place was 34, right outside Le Châtelet Metro station in Paris.

  18. So, France has more balls than the US these days? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Must be the lack of rainbow colors everywhere.

  19. U.S. beeds to follow suit as a "Free" country. by SmaryJerry · · Score: 1

    The U.S. government wants to be able to see your private conversations... soon everyone will have to implant a mic as well to please the government because speaking in person is encrypted by walls.

  20. In other news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    France will NOT be sending 3.14 million pigs into space strapped to hot air balloons.

    Not news. The new news.

  21. One of the oldest tricks in the book by Schmorgluck · · Score: 1

    I'm late on this, but I think it's worth stating.

    Step One: a government's minister makes an statement about planned policies that cause an outrage.

    Step Two: the prime minister of said government claims reassuringly that said policies aren't actually on the table.

    Step Three: the government implements less outrageous policies of the same nature that wouldn't have looked acceptable to the public if it weren't for step One and Two having been performed.

    I'm pretty sure there's a name for this trick, but I couldn't find it. It's certainly akin to the Argument to Moderation fallacy.

    --
    There's nothing like $HOME
    1. Re:One of the oldest tricks in the book by Schmorgluck · · Score: 1

      I'm not claiming that's what they are actually doing but, if they were, it would look exactly like that. And it's a trick that's especially useful on populations that are prone to protesting. Like, say, the French.

      --
      There's nothing like $HOME