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Why Is Gravity the Weakest Force?

StartsWithABang writes: If you calculate the forces between two fundamental particles separated by subatomic distances, you find that the strong, electromagnetic or weak nuclear force could all be the strongest, dependent on the particulars of your setup. But throw gravity in there, and it turns out to be weaker by some 40 orders of magnitude. This discrepancy, that gravity is such an oddball, is known as the hierarchy problem, and is by many measures the greatest unsolved problem in theoretical physics. Yet the new, upgraded run of the LHC has the potential to uncover any one of four possible solutions, some of which we have hints for already.

28 of 207 comments (clear)

  1. Hype by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Theoretical particle physicist here. These claims are hype. Pure wishful speculation to entice funding agencies via the general public. They should be ashamed of themselves. Best to ignore them. Cui Bono.

    1. Re:Hype by Beck_Neard · · Score: 4, Interesting

      To be fair to them, it's a very tough time for fundamental physics right now. Progress is insanely expensive, funding is all but non-existent, it's hard to find talented scientists who actually want to study it, and the general public just isn't interested anymore.

      --
      A fool and his hard drive are soon parted.
    2. Re:Hype by Z00L00K · · Score: 2

      Another question is rather - is gravity a true force or a side-effect of the bending of spacetime?

      Some people have tried to find the so called gravitons. However that may lead to the result that gravitation has a minimum quanta - and wouldn't that result in other problems?

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    3. Re:Hype by greenfruitsalad · · Score: 4, Interesting

      i disagree with the part about talented scientists. there are plenty of theoretical scientists in physics but nothing for them to do (funding problem). the brightest 0.1% get a job in their field, 1% stay at their university for life, the rest sell used cars or teach high school physics.

      i know a guy how knows a guy... who worked at LHC and i heard about how the jobs dried up during the hiatus. theoretical physics is not a field i'd study if i wanted a safe career.

    4. Re:Hype by FooAtWFU · · Score: 2
      One of the more interesting speculative ideas that real physicists take seriously is that gravity as a force is a side effect of entropy.

      Imagine a spherical screen with radius R surrounding a physical system of mass M. According to the holographic principle, all the physics that takes place within the screen can be described by bits of information that can be thought to be located on the screen. If each bit occupies an area Abit, a total of N = 4ÏR2/Abit bits is available to describe the system surrounded by the spherical screen.

      ...

      Each bit is associated with a degree of freedom of the system being described. According to the equipartition theorem, each degree of freedom caries on average an energy ½kT, with k representing Boltzmann's constant and T the absolute temperature.

      ...

      The holographic screen is not a physical screen but rather a thought construct created to represent the information contained in a physical system. How can such a non-entity have a temperature? The Unruh effect lends us a hand here. According to this principle, an observer being accelerated in empty space will record a non-zero temperature of that empty space.

      -- Johannes Koelman explaining Erik Verlinde, who's apparently gone and won the Spinoza prize for this work (worth a few cool millions of euro?)

      --
      The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
    5. Re:Hype by InterGuru · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I thought the cost of the LHC was insanely expensive, then I realized we spent more to bail out one sleazy bank ( while the banksters still got huge bonuses. )

    6. Re:Hype by tommeke100 · · Score: 2

      I know a guy who worked at CERN and seriously it's only a place you want to stay if you're a hardcore physicist. These guys do research because they love it, not for fame or big money. How many persons of the general public can name a theoretical physicist next to Stephen Hawking? These guys easily find their way into other areas like Software Development, R&D, All forms of analytics like statistics and machine learning.
      Here are some official stats for the last couple of years (https://www.aip.org/statistics/data-graphics/field-employment-exiting-physics-masters-working-private-sector-one-year): 45% engineering, 24% Computer and Information Tech, 10% phys/astronomy, 14% STEM and 7% non-STEM.

    7. Re:Hype by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      To be fair to them, it's a very tough time for fundamental physics right now. Progress is insanely expensive, funding is all but non-existent, it's hard to find talented scientists who actually want to study it, and the general public just isn't interested anymore.

      There is a reason for this. There isn't a lot of practical application from theoretical physics, particularly given the high cost. Businesses realize this, which is why they don't invest in such research and it is left up to the government. In a time of anti-government spending, no ROI equates to no funding.

      As for the general public not being interested, there is, in the USA, anyway, a strong correlation between the decline of the middle class and funding of science. Why? The rich don't need it and the poor are too busy trying to figure out how to get their own basic needs met. In addition, tax revenues, which fund such endeavors come from a strong economy. Economists will tell you that the economy is driven by the middle class. A strong middle class equates to a strong economy and vice-versa.

      So, in short, yes, the public doesn't care about any of this, because the public is interested in either accumulating more wealth or meeting basic needs. Doing something for the common good has gone the way of the middle class.

    8. Re:Hype by bytesex · · Score: 2

      The last financial meltdown was caused by the government mandate to take on bad loans. Since bad loans were all-of-a-suddenly risk-free, they could be bundled into derivatives, and every single perverse incentive started rolling from there. Had nothing to do with millisecond trading.

      --
      Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
  2. I'll tell you why by fnj · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Because. That's all. There doesn't have to be a reason. The mystery is the puzzlement.

    1. Re:I'll tell you why by Aighearach · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Physics can only predict the future, it can't tell you why anything happens. Only what happens, and when.

    2. Re:I'll tell you why by KGIII · · Score: 3, Funny

      We didn't get our Friday SJW thread. I'm kind of disappointed.

      So, with that in mind, it's because gravity is the female variant of force. Obviously, this makes it weaker. Even the most retarded of forces, magnetic force, is stronger than gravity and it's a mentally retarded male force. The feminists have taken over academia and called it the weak nuclear force to imply that it, a male force, was weaker than the strong independent female force of gravity! Well, the yolk's on them because we now the truth.

      I, for one, am glad of this publicity! I hope more people see this and realize the harm that has come to science in the name of social justice and political correctness.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    3. Re:I'll tell you why by alexgieg · · Score: 2

      especially the natural philosophers, or as we call them now, scientists

      No. Scientist work from within a set of philosophical assumptions about a huge number of things, assumptions that are taken as givens "just because".

      The good philosophers open up that black box of assumption and go on questioning, HARD, every single one of those. And none of those stuff scientists assume can be falsified, because they're the very basis upon which non-falsifiable methodological constructs such as the principle of falsifiability are built.

      Philosophy is the art of making the annoying questions, no matter who gets annoyed, all the while never accepting hand waves such as "well, it works".

      --
      Conservatism: (n.) love of the existing evils. Liberalism: (n.) desire to substitute new evils for the existing ones.
  3. It has to be by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Unlike the other three forces, gravity neither cancels out because of negative and positive versions, nor peters out beyond subatomic distances. Its effects are therefore cumulative over huge swaths of the universe.

    If gravity were much stronger, the entire universe would collapse into a singularity, and we wouldn't be here to gaze at our navels about the issue.

    1. Re:It has to be by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      If we're going to ask "why is it weakest," we ought to also ask, "why does it exist?" Of course down that path lies turtles all the way down.....

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    2. Re:It has to be by tomxor · · Score: 5, Interesting

      If the force of gravity is the inverse square of the distance, what are the 'powers' of the other forces? Cubed, quad power, 10th power?

      I always had roughly the same thoughts on this argument, that other fundamental forces don't appear to operate over the distances that gravity does... but it's actually quite logical when you play out the details: The inverse square function of distance is no coincidence, it's comes from the dimensionality of space and an omnidirectional force which is why it applies to other things like electromagnetic waves.

      Other forces are stronger (the strong nuclear force is 10^38 times stronger than gravity at the same distance!) and i think they probably have the same distance function... So why isn't it stronger at large distances? As others have said the main difference between gravity and other forces is it's insatiability, (it's cumulative). When some subatomic particles form an atom, the forces at play are satisfied to some degree and the resulting matter is less reactive (has less attraction to other similar matter); whereas when matter coalesces under the force of gravity, only separation is satisfied, the force is just combines resulting in a denser gravitational force in a region of space.

      Another way to compare is by imagining under what hypothetical scenario another force would act the same way: for instance how could you make a strong nuclear force on a universal scale, you would need a large mass (i.e the size of the earth) of protons or something... and they need to stay in the same place (not fly apart) oh and they need to have not reacted with anything... That scenario would result in a frighteningly large force but it will also never happen because those forces tend to get satisfied on small scales very quickly.

    3. Re:It has to be by tomxor · · Score: 2

      Calculating the range of strong force: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.g...

    4. Re:It has to be by ByteSlicer · · Score: 4, Informative

      It doesn't really make sense to compare the fundamental forces that way. Only the electromagnetic field and gravity propagate far enough to exhibit an inverse square law. This is simply because the field covers a bigger spherical area at larger distances.

      The strong force stays roughly constant at growing distances. This is because the color field absorbs the energy used to separate the quarks, and interacts with itself via the color force (generating virtual gluons and quarks). When the separation gets too large (i.e. sub atomic distances), the field energy condenses into new quarks close to the original quarks, and the field between the original quarks disappears (almost, but not completely. The leakage makes nucleons stick together).

      The weak force is even harder to describe in this way, since it doesn't really behave like a classical force.

      So how do physicists compare these forces then? Each force is associated with a quantum field, and each field has some probability to interact with some particles. This probability is a constant number called a coupling constant, and can be determined by experiment. The fact that C14 has a certain half-life for example is caused by the weak interaction having some probability of turning a neutron in a proton (by changing the flavor of one of its quarks).

      So it's the value of the coupling constants that determines the strength of the force, and on average the many quantum interactions between a field (or the bosons that are its quanta) and other particles (which are also just quanta of a field) manifest as a classical force that exhibits an inverse square law.

    5. Re:It has to be by ByteSlicer · · Score: 4, Informative

      No, I really meant constant, not linear. It is indeed odd, and known as color confinement.
      But this property only exists at very small distances (sub atomic, nucleus scale), because once the field energy becomes too high with bigger distance, the energy is converted to mass, and these new quarks close the distance.
      Outside the nucleus, the color field strength (and thus the strong force) is almost zero, because the colored quarks and gluons in the nucleus have a neutral color charge on average, similar to how positive and negative charges almost completely cancel each other out.

  4. ... And time is the strongest dimension by wylderide · · Score: 3, Interesting

    We are dragged along by four dimensions as they expand, but we can still move freely in the other three, but not time. Coincidence? Yeah, probably, but maybe not.

    --
    This is the best restaurant I ever eat in
    1. Re: ... And time is the strongest dimension by GodelEscherBlecch · · Score: 2

      Sure, if you want to make the massive oversimplification of saying that time is a 'dimension' just like the other 3. Just because you have seen it on an X axis doesn't make it part of a simple coordinate system.

  5. forbes = ad hell by ljw1004 · · Score: 4, Informative

    I tried reading that article on my mobile device (doesn't support ad-blocker). Got ten ads. The first was a full-screen block that, after I clicked through, didn't even take me to the article. The other 9 all caused the article to "repaginate" under my fingers when I reached them (or at least, recalculate vertical spacing) and all blocked further text until they'd spent their 1-2 seconds loading.

    What a terrible experience. So sure that I never got to the actual substance of the article before I gave up.

    Oh, also a permanent title bar that takes too much of my small device's limited screen real estate.

    Forbes is a disaster on mobile.

  6. Why Is Gravity the Weakest Force? by Feral+Nerd · · Score: 2

    Why Is Gravity the Weakest Force?

    Entropy? If there are other universes some of them may have a different set of physical laws due to their big bangs or their aftermath playing out in a subtly different way than in the case of our universe. If some of these other universes have strong gravitational forces they will presumably pass into something resembling the upcoming black hole era of our own universe before developing any intelligent life so let's just be happy our universe has weak gravity.

  7. Broken Link by allo · · Score: 4

    Redirects to forbes.com/welcome, which is an empty page.

    Stop linking sources with crude javascript, please.

  8. It's not *that* much of a mystery... by rocket+rancher · · Score: 4, Interesting

    if you think about it for a moment in terms of the weak anthropic principle, gravity has to be very weak, because it is cumulative. The Weyl curvature of spacetime, which is the metric tensor that governs the propagation of gravity in free space, acts across the entire Einstein manifold, i.e., everywhere at the same time. If gravity were any stronger, it is pretty unlikely that matter as we understand it would be able to exist long enough to produce objects like humans capable of asking that question.

    With that said, it is not really an important question question on its own, as the over-hyped intro suggests. The important questions pretty much are looking for explanations as to why the universe behaves so differently at different scales and velocities. Important questions in physics and cosmology are more along the lines of "Why are our two most successful theories about the nature of the universe, quantum mechanics and general relativity, incompatible with each other?"

  9. Try Other Questions by VernonNemitz · · Score: 4, Interesting

    We know the theorists want to be able to describe gravitation in terms of Quantum Mechanics. This will necessarily involve hypothetical "virtual gravitons" as "exchange particles" between interacting masses. So:
    How do gravitons, even virtual ones, escape a black hole?
    How do gravitons from the Sun pass through the Earth to affect the Moon (and artificial satellites) when eclipsed by the Earth, as if the Earth was a zero-size object? That is, the orbits of those bodies don't change just because the Earth sometimes eclipses them from the Sun's perspective.
    In a way, just one proposal can answer both those questions, plus the one in the title of this page's article. If gravitons interact very rarely with other particles, including each other, then they can't stop each other from escaping a black hole, the Earth would be mostly transparent to them --AND gravitation would be the weakest force.

  10. It's merely the weakest one you know about by goombah99 · · Score: 2

    Some force has to be the weakest. And perhaps there's some other force 40 orders of magnitude smaller yet. maybe there's some inter multiverse quantum repulsion that causes multiverses to diverge. We just don't know about it.

    Likewise it's possible there's some force 40 orders of magnitude stronger than the strongest forces we know of. perhaps quarks have sub particles that are held together by this but it's so string we've never seen them unbounded.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
  11. Not in Experimental Particle Physics by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 2

    Progress is insanely expensive, funding is all but non-existent, it's hard to find talented scientists who actually want to study it, and the general public just isn't interested anymore.

    I completely disagree, funding still exists although it is being squeezed by governments who want to fund building better widgets rather than understanding the physics which will let you continue to do this 50-100 years in the future. Given the article it is clear that the public are interested in it - so much so that they will listen to someone like 'startswithabang' who, when it comes to particle physics, doesn't really know what he is talking about since the heirarchy, or fine tuning, problem is all about trying to explain the difference between the mass of the Higgs and the scale of gravity and not just why gravity is so weak. For example in SUSY you still end up with gravity incredibly weak and there is still no explanation as to why.