Seattle Passes First Uber Drivers' Union Into Law (thestack.com)

An anonymous reader writes: The city council of Seattle has unanimously voted in favour of a proposal which will require Uber — and driving-related companies which operate on the same principle — to allow its drivers to be represented by a union, the first of its kind in the US. The lead-up to the vote was hallmarked by opposition from Seattle's mayor Ed Murray, and by a publicity campaign from Uber, which opposed the bill. Though the law will allow collective bargaining for drivers which are effectively on zero-hours contracts, any effect it has on current disputes as to whether Uber drivers are employees or contractors will be ambient rather than direct.

Comments

is ebay sellers union next???

[rbgnr111]

I don't see why they would need this.. if the rates you get aren't competitive... why even do it... move on and do something else... it's not like uber is the only option in seatle...

Re:is ebay sellers union next???

[serviscope_minor]

Indeed there is no long, glorious history of corporations abusing employees, leading to the employee protection laws we have now. That never happened, so I don't see any reason why we should make sure those protections are retained in any way whatsoever.

Re:is ebay sellers union next???

[CastrTroy]

But we already have laws stating what employers can and cannot do to employees. We have laws detailing how long a shift can be and how long you must have off between shifts. We have laws about what kind of breaks you have to have during your shift. We have laws about the employer not being able to discriminate pay rates or hiring practices based on things like gender or ethnicity. There are laws about minimum wages.

Unions were very good at one point in history when corporations were actually abusing their employees. Now that there are ample laws in place protecting employees, unions have become less necessary. They seem to have the opposite effect that they once had. They continue to push for higher and higher wages, and more benefits, until it becomes financially irresponsible to the shareholders to continue to pay those rates, when they know that there are cheaper workers who will do the job in other countries.

Re:is ebay sellers union next???

[serviscope_minor]

Unions were very good at one point in history when corporations were actually abusing their employees. Now that there are ample laws in place protecting employees, unions have become less necessary.

Except now companies like Uber are finding inventive ways to not call employees employees. That means they have none of the protections any more, since they're not employees. And so the union has a use again.

until it becomes financially irresponsible to the shareholders to continue to pay those rates, when they know that there are cheaper workers who will do the job in other countries.

Good luck outsourcing taxi drivers to another country.

Also "finanance" doesn't excuse unethically not paying a living wage and etc. Being a dick for money doesn't make you less of a dick. Working in a company does not magically grant you some sort of ethical bypass. If you're happy to do so then you should declare "yes I am happy to screw over my fellow man for money". Don't try to hide behind "finance".

Re:is ebay sellers union next???

[Grishnakh]

when they know that there are cheaper workers who will do the job in other countries.

This doesn't apply to Uber. You can't get someone in India to drive you between two points in Seattle. Well, not yet at least...

As for "ample laws" protecting employees, those don't exist for "contractors" or even part-time workers. So unions still have a place in securing benefits for workers who the law has disregarded.

Re:is ebay sellers union next???

[CastrTroy]

Uber is very interested in self driving cars. They know what the end game is. Having human drivers is just a stop gap step in getting their foot in the door in the taxi industry. The same way that Netflix used DVD delivery by mail to jump start their online streaming services, Uber is definitely thinking about the next step that they are going to be taking.

Re:is ebay sellers union next???

[DRJlaw]

**Ultimately, Uber isn't take advantage of the drivers, riders are.**

The riders don't specify either the terms and conditions or the price. Uber does. Given that, how you rationalize shifting all the responsibility from Uber to the riders escapes me...

Re:is ebay sellers union next???

[XxtraLarGe]

Uber is very interested in self driving cars. They know what the end game is. Having human drivers is just a stop gap step in getting their foot in the door in the taxi industry.

Don't worry, it's Seattle. I'm sure self-driving cars will be allowed to join the union as well!

Re:is ebay sellers union next???

[AthanasiusKircher]

But we already have laws stating what employers can and cannot do to employees. We have laws detailing how long a shift can be and how long you must have off between shifts. We have laws about what kind of breaks you have to have during your shift. We have laws about the employer not being able to discriminate pay rates or hiring practices based on things like gender or ethnicity. There are laws about minimum wages.

Well, you're right. But most of this is NOT relevant to this particular situation, because Uber has fought to claim that it's employees aren't actually "employees."

Thus, they don't have to conform to most of those laws you mention. Hence people arguing that they may need a union to obtain such basic protections.

Or have you somehow missed the continuous parade of court cases about whether Uber "employees" are actually employed by Uber?

Re:is ebay sellers union next???

[sinij]

"if you don't make enough money driving for Uber then DON'T drive for them and find a new "job". "

How did this get upvoted? This is rehashing of "if you have nothing to hide" fallacy.

To address this directly. Finding a new job may impose undue hardship. Imagine if you had to put up with an abusive boss at work, and instead of being sympathetic I tell you to find a new job. Maybe you are nearing retirement age Turbo Pascal programmer and this is not really an option.

Some people.

Re:is ebay sellers union next???

[SuperKendall]

Except now companies like Uber are finding inventive ways to not call employees employees.

How ARE they employees in any sense of the word, when they have total control over when they work?

A real "employee" has some obligations around attendance and being told what to do. An Uber driver is no more an employee of Uber than you and I are employees of Slashdot because sometimes we come here and write content for them.

Re:is ebay sellers union next???

[k6mfw]

The business model is dumb for the drivers because of the hundreds of hidden costs

Reminds me of a /. person posted, which I saved his writings in my "diatribes and knowledge" folder:

---begin quote---

I'll define 'crazy Uber people' not as 'danger to customers', but 'people who are bringing more value in terms of vehicle, skill and desire to please, than they are getting back in pay and benefits'. So the crazy Uber person is the one who keeps buying a new Lexus or whatever, vacuums their car three times a day and busts their ass to outperform all the other Uber drivers, so they can continue to win out over anybody else seeking to be a driver.

The key factor is that they are giving more than they get back, in the belief that they're cornering some kind of market or buying in to something important. If you make a business that relies on people like this, you can demolish anybody else because you've worked out how to get voluntary unpaid labor, like the Amazon exec who was said to use her own money to hire subcontractors to do more. As long as there are people who are willing to do that, the market breaks and Amazon/Uber get to do what Wal-Mart did in small towns, break the back of other market participants so they can't break even or continue.

Another way to be a crazy Uber person is to put more depreciation and wear and tear on your car than you can afford to repair (or replace). It's easy to be crazy in these ways. It's externalities which are easy to overlook. These Amazon/Uber business models are designed to leverage that kind of crazy as hard as possible, and kick out everybody who's not willing to lose (one way or another) on the deal. Psychology is useful in getting people to buy into this stuff.

As they say, a cult.

----end quote---

Re:is ebay sellers union next???

[thinkwaitfast]

If I as a rider don't like the price, I won't use the service.

Re:is ebay sellers union next???

[sinij]

Just because you don't see the problem, doesn't mean that signs are not already there. Just consider how popular Trump is. His constituency are people who "made bad choices or were too stupid to learn". It doesn't take complete societal collapse for the bad guys to come to power via democratic-ish process. Just look at post WW1 Germany.

Google self driving cars are next

[jfdavis668]

California will pass legislation giving self driving cars the right to form unions. The AI civil rights movements needs to start somewhere.

Re:Google self driving cars are next

[plopez]

So if self aware AI develops would it be recognized as a person? Esp. since corporations are recognized as a person? You just brought up a very deep topic.

Re:Um, obviously...

[Qzukk]

Uber has a problem with calling its drivers "employees". That is to say, they don't.

Really, they shouldn't be calling them contractors either, but if they didn't employ the drivers one way or the other, how would they extract their profit from the drivers' work? They should have looked harder at ebay and other companies that manage to extract profits from their users without employing them. Nobody calls the guy selling random junk on ebay an employee or a contractor, do they?

Don't see a problem

[smooth wombat]

I'm sure the other taxi services in Seattle are unionized, there is no reason for the Uber taxi service not to have the same.

Re:Don't see a problem

[Grishnakh]

Uber isn't a taxi service, it's a black-car service. That's how they don't run afoul of taxi laws: they aren't taxis. A taxi is a car with a taximeter which charges you based on distance traveled, stops, etc. A "black car" (basically limosine) is a car where you contact the service and arrange in advance for a ride from point A to point B, are given an estimate beforehand, and can select which driver you want to ride with and in which car. These services existed LONG before Uber came around. Uber just brought them to the internet and smartphones and made them extremely convenient.

That said, if the drivers in other services are unionized, then it is only fair for Uber's drivers to be unionized too. Uber has a great service and a good business model (drivers frequently praise the work, because it gives them freedom and flexibility they wouldn't have with a regular 9-5 job), but it does need some work as far as liability, insurance, etc. I'm really not sure if a union will help here, or if they just need direct legislation to deal with businesses like this (the "gig economy") which don't have regular 40-hour/week employees, but I do think improvements are needed.

Re:Don't see a problem

[gnupun]

You have to register ahead of time with Uber too. Thanks to something called "technology", that time is now really short. You think society should be held back because of obsolete business models? It's not Uber's fault the incumbent companies were too stupid and tech-unsavvy to take advantage of smartphone apps.

One more point... You must've heard of patent trolls, there's a story about them at least once a month on slashdot. Patent trolls obtain patents on obvious, everyday functionality, except it's done over the Internet or on a computer.

Well let's check out the so-called innovations that uber provides:
a) Hailing a cab over the internet using its app.
b) Billing taxi fares over the internet.
In other words, Uber is just a taxi service over the internet. Get it, lying shill?

Re:Don't see a problem

[gnupun]

Oh yeah, about the obscenities. Fuck you, your ugly whore mother, and murderer of a father. Fuck you and your whole family, you ugly piece of garbage.

Either learn to debate properly, or simply slit your throat open.

Re:Um, obviously...

[stephanruby]

Germany is happy with unionisation. Unions act as the negotiator between management and non-management, ensuring that employees have sufficient compensation to maintain an interest in keeping their job, updating their skills often, and keeping as productive as possible. Everybody wins.

Not everybody wins. The people without jobs don't win. Unions are only useful once you're in the union. Unions usually try to impose limits on the number of new hires. Unions also always carve out the more lucractive territories and the better schedules for its more senior members.

And in the United States at least, collective bargaining usually doesn't allow for individual bargaining, so a portion of your income goes to Union fees whether you want the Union representing yourself, or not.

If Uber was like eBay....

[tekrat]

If Uber was like eBay, you'd have to negotiate the price with the driver *and pay him* before he evens show up. And then he just doesn't show up at all. So you call Uber and they promise to start an investigation, but do nothing. In the end, 6 months later, you get your money back, but you're still stranded on the street corner.

And for the Uber drivers, they'd experience getting a call to pick up someone. The driver and client are in Seattle. However, when the client, who has already negotiated a price with the driver actually gets into the car, he insists on being driven to Romania. And he'll give you negative feedback if you don't immediately do this.

And that's why Uber is not run like eBay.