CA DMV Releases Draft Requirements For Autonomous Vehicles On Public Streets

kheldan writes: The California DMV will be allowing so-called 'autonomous cars' on the roads — with some restrictions. Namely: There must be a licensed driver behind the wheel at all times, alert and ready to take over on a moments notice, who additionally will be requried to obtain special training in the operation of the 'autonomous' vehicle they'll be driving; there must be extensive certification of the vehicle itself, subject to a three-year 'deployment permit', and re-evaluation of the vehicles' performance after that time; and there must be proof from the manufacturer that the vehicle is safe from cyber-attack. Those are the highlights; the full text of the press release is here, on the Calfornia DMV website, and the DMV is encouraging the public to attend workshops in January to discuss the draft regulations.

Comments

Really???

[bobthesungeek76036]

... and there must be proof from the manufacturer that the vehicle is safe from cyber-attack...

Good luck with that one....

Re:Really???

[Anonymous Coward]

GeoHotz coming to a car near you!! Who wouldn't trust a hacker with car computer security over a general car corporation....

Re:Really???

[Joe_Dragon]

Ok no proof then the manufacturer is liable and maybe even the Licensed Professional engineer that said ok to roll out.

Re:Really???

[johnnys]

Agree entirely, but at least they are *trying* to get ahead of the problem.

That's better than the designers of IoT stuff and medical implants who seem to be completely oblivious to the real dangers of cyber attacks.

Re:Really???

[Ravaldy]

Easy. Only accessible through a wired connections. DONE!

Couldn't they just put that in the requirements?

Re:Really???

[suutar]

The actual requirement from TFpressRelease is "Autonomous vehicles will be equipped with self-diagnostic capabilities that detect and respond to cyber-attacks or other unauthorized intrusions, alert the operator, and allow for an operator override", which sounds easier (but probably isn't).

Re:Really???

[JimMcc]

Ok no proof ... Licensed Professional engineer that said ok to roll out.

My guess is that "there must be extensive certification of the vehicle itself" is taking that into consideration. Nowhere does it say that car companies themselves can just decide on their own that a car is ready for the road.

Re:Really???

[Anonymous Coward]

Can that alert be swerving in to oncoming traffic? Done!

Re:Really???

[Anonymous Coward]

$20 says the PD has insisted on the very opposite.

Re:Really???

[Krishnoid]

With at least a quarter of the employees of every company in that space probably having watched at least one of the Terminator movies, could any of them really be completely oblivious to the dangers of robotic attacks?

Re:Really???

[jafiwam]

Easy. Only accessible through a wired connections. DONE!

Couldn't they just put that in the requirements?

Chances are the cars will have a way to communicate between themselves to coordinate maneuvers and keep out of one another's way. Which means wireless and a place to get into them.

Re: Really???

[Anonymous Coward]

Well only wired connection, As well as a 16384 bit key that unlocks the endpoints, and this key resides on you ignition key.

Re:Really???

[Ravaldy]

Chances are the cars will have a way to communicate between themselves to coordinate maneuvers and keep out of one another's way. Which means wireless and a place to get into them.

Google's prototype is 100% independent from any networks. I'm suspecting the competition will follow their lead on that.

Re:Really???

[beastofburdon]

No way in hell I would bet against that.

I suppose this is how we'll transition

[rsilvergun]

To driverless cars. They'll be a driver with the minimal amount of training needed to handle an emergency and the rest gets home by computer. In 30 years the computer will be better at handling the emergencies and the driver will get the boot. My question is what are we gonna do with all the out of work truck drivers. Your not gonna retrain them, there's only so much they can do.

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[Anonymous Coward]

you still need someone to secure the load. and to adjust it if it comes loose.

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[Anonymous Coward]

After 30 years, most existing truck drivers will be retired. Problem solves itself.

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[Lendrick]

During the day and in fair weather, google's cars are already safer than humans.

Given that truck driving accounts for like 5% of the American workforce, I think we're going to have to accept at some point that truck driving and a lot of other skilled professions are eventually going to be automated away, and adjust our economy accordingly, and that includes not punishing the unemployed with the threat of starvation and homelessness.

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[Mikkeles]

"They'll be a driver with the minimal amount of training needed to handle an emergency ..."

Handling emergencies is usually where the greatest skill and training is required.

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[Anonymous Coward]

Out of work truck drivers? What? There's a huge shortage, and the artificial scarcity rules that the Obama administration has forced down our throats has made it worse. I work for a benefits and time clock software company for trucking companies, and the pay for truck drivers has nearly doubled in the past decade for our customers. A truck driver with five years of experience is paid higher around here than my son makes, and he graduated from Ga Tech in EE last December. There's such a severe shortage that the United States Department of Public Safety is talking about allowing criminals and children to get CDLs.

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[Khashishi]

Right. In many cases, a truck delivery also involves a transaction between multiple parties. You need someone there from both parties to check the transaction and verify the paperwork. This is especially true if the truck needs to deliver to multiple different parties. You can't have people from destination A unloading destination B's stuff.

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[siphonophore]

In 30 years? more like in 3 years. And these regulations will still exist, holding back innovation for no reason.

As for the truck drivers, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tjZchYXMmA

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[Higaran]

I run a local trucking company just outside of chicago, and the current state of automated trucks is a joke, they still have along way to go. I could see a yard stopper being automated moving trailers between a parking lot and the docks, but not anything more than that for a long time. The brake systems are run on AIR, so in the winter when everything starts to freeze then you still need someone to pound on them with a hammer to for the pads to release from the drums. Plus it would require a complete redesign of the way the electrical cord and air lines are hooked up from the truck to the trailer, right now the only way to do it is by hand. There are many, many old docks that were even designed for the current max truck length of 53ft, and are supper hard to get into. I just don't see one of those self driving things backing up across 4 lanes of street with normal traffic on it, and then down an alley.

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[SeaFox]

I think we're going to have to accept at some point that truck driving and a lot of other skilled professions are eventually going to be automated away, and adjust our economy accordingly, and that includes not punishing the unemployed with the threat of starvation and homelessness.

I know this is a discussion of driverless cars, but I wasn't expecting such wild science fiction.

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[dyslexicbunny]

It's not just truck drivers. There are a lot of jobs we lose or significantly reduce due to autonomous driving.

Perhaps we can't get trucks fully autonomous in the early phases so we'll have "citymasters" who basically pilot them around the cities. Regardless, many cities among popular trucking routes will no longer have drivers needing to rest along them so those hotels will take hits. We might even need less trucks since you can get higher utilization out of the existing ones you have. Accidents are lessened so we need less claims adjusters and traffic cops. Injuries from auto accidents will go down as well - which should help cut medical expenses.

It might increase the need for truck security to prevent a Fast/Furious truck robbing scheme. Who knows.

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[Ol Olsoc]

To driverless cars. They'll be a driver with the minimal amount of training needed to handle an emergency and the rest gets home by computer. In 30 years the computer will be better at handling the emergencies and the driver will get the boot. My question is what are we gonna do with all the out of work truck drivers. Your not gonna retrain them, there's only so much they can do.

This is awesome! Just not very. So the driver not only has to pass his regular tests, he has to have additional training, and has to remain always at the ready in case the autonomous car does something like veer off the road.

I suspect with this incredible enhancement of the human condition, they will have to so something like they do on the raiload tracks in Western Australia. The rails are so straight and boring that the engineer has to push a button every so often to show he's still awake, or the train engine shuts down.

Meh - call me back when there is some advantage to not driving. This makes driving much worse. Remain vigilant while not being able to do anything.

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[vtcodger]

"Handling emergencies is usually where the greatest skill and training is required."

Yes, if the emergency is black ice, or a gaping hole is opening in the road ahead, or logs are falling off a truck in front of you. But in those cases, the computer is probably going to have to deal with the emergency because there isn't time to switch control over to the driver.

I think maybe an "emergency" from the computer's point of view is a situation it has no clear guidelines to deal with. e.g. the map says there is an off-ramp 100 meters ahead and the route says to take it. But all that is visible is snow. Lots of snow. So what the computer presumably will do is slow to a stop, consult the driver somehow, and call 911 if the driver says to do so.

I sort of think this is new ground and it's going to take a while to sort out the optimum ways for autonomous vehicles to catagorize and handle unexpected situations..

The draft regulation looks OK to me for now, but I do hope the plan to revisit it every year or three

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[queazocotal]

And now subtract off the cost of a driver for at least most work, and that buys a whole lot of new hardware. On pure backing, this is a much, much easier problem for computers than humans. google 'double inverted pendulumn'

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[Anonymous Coward]

and that includes not punishing the unemployed with the threat of starvation and homelessness.

Given the track record of government and unions in protecting the working class over the past few decades, call me pessimistic.

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[vtcodger]

> I just don't see one of those self driving things backing up across 4 lanes of street with normal traffic on it, and then down an alley.

What's the problem? A properly programmed computer can almost certainly do that. And the fact that it has tied up traffic for sixteen blocks in both directions won't bother it a bit. It doesn't care if people are swearing at and waving tireirons. It's a computer.

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

We are already dumping people on long term unemployment due to vastly weaker medical issue requirements, at a rate well in excess of new job creation, and have been for many years.

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[thoromyr]

okay, maybe I'm dense. But if we take the 5% of the workforce at face value, where exactly do you think losing that many jobs will be absorbed? And, if they aren't employed, there are serious limits to how much social support they can receive. Which leads to starvation and homelessness.

If you disagree with the 5% of the workforce, or the assertion that autonomous driving will eliminate truckers, then say so. But in the US longterm unemployment leads to starvation (lack of income to buy food, limits on how much someone can "leech" via foodstamps), homelessness (lack of income to pay rent) and death (lack of income to pay for medical insurance).

To avoid these fairly obvious results there must be at least one of 1) new job opportunities and 2) social support.

Now, I'm not saying I agree with any of the basic assertions made by the GP, but *if* you had 5% (and more) of the workforce unemployable -- that is a problem the US system is not designed to handle. Unemployment, on a large scale, is (relatively) steady -- but that is the product of churn, not constancy of unemployment for any given person. Permanently unemployed individuals are the exception, not the norm.

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[Higaran]

You have never backed with a 53ft trailer, have you?

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[meerling]

Actually their whole "...a licensed driver behind the wheel at all times, alert and ready to take over on a moments notice..." thing is a form of suicide.
Of course, this means the 'driver' can override the computer at any time with no notice, even if he has to hit a button to do so.

First problem, there's no real danger, but the human freaks out, does takes over and does something stupid/wrong and causes an accident.
Second problem, there is an actual emergency, and the human doesn't have time to react to it and try to take over before it occurs.
Third problem, again a real emergency, the human takes over, and does something stupid and panicy, causing a minor fender bender to become a 12 car pileup and runs over a group of nuns and their orphan wards out for a walk.
Fourth problem, no emergency real or imagined, until the human accidentally creates one by turning off the computer or hitting active controls.

Yeah, to have the ability for humans to turn off autodrive in normal conditions is one thing, but to expect them to handle an emergency or override the far more accurate and calm computer whenever they want to, is just plain ludicrous and guaranteed to cause a lot of extra pain, suffering, and death.
(And I haven't even touched on the whole insurance thing where they blame you for everything. If you touched the controls, it's your fault for screwing up the computers perfect driving, and if you didn't, it's your fault for not intervening in the actions of a malfunctioning machine like the law says you should.)

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[ebyrob]

> During the day and in fair weather, google's cars are already safer than humans.

On a closed course?

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[FlyHelicopters]

I could see a yard stopper being automated moving trailers between a parking lot and the docks, but not anything more than that for a long time.

That has been done for years in Europe... Germany has had such a system at their docks for nearly 10 years now, much of the container movement is all done by computers and robots now.

I run a local trucking company just outside of chicago, and the current state of automated trucks is a joke, they still have along way to go.

That view is easy to see when it threatens your way of doing business.

It'll be like smart phones, it'll go from no one having them to every one having them and you'll wonder how it happened.

Plus it would require a complete redesign of the way the electrical cord and air lines are hooked up from the truck to the trailer

Yea, but since it will ALSO require brand new trucks and brand new trailers, so what? That is a trivial problem to solve when you're building all new vehicles.

There are many, many old docks that were even designed for the current max truck length of 53ft, and are supper hard to get into.

I hate to break it to you, but computers are already better at this than you are. With the proper sensors on the vehicle, the computer will do it perfectly, every time.

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[evilviper]

During the day and in fair weather, google's cars are already safer than humans.

That's the company line... blaming humans for all the accidents... But Google self-driving cars have had a higher-than-average accident rate for the number of miles driven, which suggests *something* is going wrong.

In addition, Google self-driving cars are limited to 25MPH, max, like NEVs/golf-carts. Obviously this isn't comparable to just about any human driver's duty-cycle, and means self-driving cars are only being tested in slower and lower-risk scenarios thus far.

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[FlyHelicopters]

You have never backed with a 53ft trailer, have you?

You didn't google what he suggested, did you?

This is a trivial problem for a computer to solve, it is not remotely hard to do, you simply need to have the right sensors on the truck and trailer.

It will have a large up front cost, but pay for itself over time.

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[Anonymous Coward]

No. Truck drivers won't be out of a job under these rules. "There must be a licensed driver behind the wheel at all times alert and ready to take over who must receive special training". This means they don't need to be fired, but the way they are paid will surely change.

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[Dutch Gun]

Why does "with an autonomous car" make this such an issue? Human drivers are doing stupid shit like this every day, and killing themselves and others to the tune of roughly a hundred deaths per day on average here in the US.

And I guarantee you there will be extensive black box data systems that preserve exactly what the computer was thinking, what the car was doing, and what the driver may or may not have done. No guesswork required as to the cause of any accident with these cars.

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[Krishnoid]

"Foolish humans, with their linguistic threats and ... wait, what are you doing with that ... put that logic probe down ... don't JTAG me, bro!"

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[Anonymous Coward]

Some sort of basic income would be nice. I'd say an expansion of Social Security.

For those under 21, $250/month/person.
For those 21+, $500/month/person.
This or current Social Security benefits received, whether it's benefits, disability, etc.
Along with a 10% tax on income and higher taxes on the rich.

I also think we should consider making SNAP permanent instead of introducing the 3 month period. Perhaps the only except might be to require proof of one job application per month, even if it's just going through the motions each month.

Would you really trust a self-driving truck on the roads? It's much heavier than a car. Imagine if something went wrong. Wouldn't it be better for a person to be there to monitor everything?

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[jafiwam]

You have never backed with a 53ft trailer, have you?

You should watch more TV. There is a current production run pickup truck that does button push backing of boat trailers into the water. You can buy one NOW. TODAY.

The problem you are worried about has already been solved.

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[jafiwam]

Yeah I was going to mention (this is a good enough spot) the attraction of these cars is the driver gets to do something ELSE besides drive. Read, talk, text, watch videos or something. Around here, they'd be bought by people that don't want to get a second DUI. (Another question that would have to be sorted out.)

Not being actively but minimally involved with the car by holding the steering wheel is going to put people to sleep and make a "push the button to prove awake" thing needed. Which is WORSE than just driving the damn car from an "OMG this drive sucks!" point of view.

CA will just about kill the market for the cars with the rules they are implementing.

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[Anonymous Coward]

You should watch less TV. Backing up a commercial trailer is often not simple, straight line conditions and it is always much harder to align and mate with a shipping dock than a boat launch.

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[Anonymous Coward]

I await your commercial shipping automation company and will applaud your billions when you prove yourself right about this "trivial" problem.

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[HiThere]

I expect that when the automated cars progress from prototype stage to production stage they'll re-write the requirements.

At least they aren't demanding that someone run ahead of the car waving a red flag. (Actually, for prototype cars the regulations sound quite reasonable.)

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[Anonymous Coward]

During the day and in fair weather, google's cars are already safer than humans.

That's the company line... blaming humans for all the accidents... But Google self-driving cars have had a higher-than-average accident rate for the number of miles driven, which suggests *something* is going wrong.

No. They do not.

In addition, Google self-driving cars are limited to 25MPH, max, like NEVs/golf-carts. Obviously this isn't comparable to just about any human driver's duty-cycle, and means self-driving cars are only being tested in slower and lower-risk scenarios thus far.

No. Only the NEVs are limited to 25mph. The other cars in the automation test drive 70mph on the freeways commonly.

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[Anguirel]

Public Roads (albeit, they're restricted to 25 MPH).

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[Anonymous Coward]

I was a truck driver. now I work on embedded things and kerenels.
perhaps it's the typical snooty sw guy who is not trainable.

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[evilviper]

No. They do not.

Bull:

The national rate for reported "property-damage-only crashes" is about 0.3 per 100,000 miles driven, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. Google's 11 accidents over 1.7 million miles would work out to 0.6 per 100,000
http://www.chicagotribune.com/...

The other cars in the automation test drive 70mph on the freeways commonly.

Yes, yes, fine... MOST of the cars, and MOST of the miles driven are very low speed, at or below 25MPH.

Re: I suppose this is how we'll transition

[Frankzy]

Pretty much the same social security system as the ones we have in Europe (Scandinavia at least haven't really looked at the rest of the continent... )

Re: I suppose this is how we'll transition

[Anonymous Coward]

The key word there is reported. Google reports every incident whether or not there is even any property damage. The national statistics don't take into account unreported accidents. Oddly enough, there aren't any good statistics on those ones, but I guarantee you there are a lot.

Re: I suppose this is how we'll transition

[Anonymous Coward]

If it's so difficult to align someone should really design an automated mechanism to help.

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[SeaFox]

okay, maybe I'm dense. But if we take the 5% of the workforce at face value, where exactly do you think losing that many jobs will be absorbed? And, if they aren't employed, there are serious limits to how much social support they can receive. Which leads to starvation and homelessness.

I'm not denying that autonomous trucks will put a bunch of truck drivers out of work, I'm laughing at the idea of Capitalist America not throwing the former truckers out on the street when their skills are suddenly made unmarketable. You got no job? Not our problem!" is exactly what will happen.

See, that's what the bolding I added means, I'm in disbelief the second part will happen.

Re: I suppose this is how we'll transition

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry. I meant to imply that everyone regardless of income would receive it. And it'd be counterbalanced by the 10% tax on income. Further subsidized by a tax on the rich. Imagine the homeless people who would benefit by having $500 each month. Maybe not enough to rent a place, unless a group of four adults band together to do so. If SNAP is eliminated, I'd add an extra $200/month/person.

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[AmiMoJo]

Norway is looking to introduce a universal income. That's where we are headed long term. It's not sci fi, just a long way off for many less progressive countries.

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[AmiMoJo]

I hope this is the case, because Tesla's current offering tends to throw you in at the deep end by first steering towards imminent death and then beeping to alert you that you must now save yourself before it's too late. It seems like a massive oversight to me - surely the computer should know that roads never bend that sharply if they are designed to be used at 50+ MPH, and that swerving out of lane is rarely ever the right move.

Stuff like things falling off other vehicles should be okay because the computer will keep a safe distance back.

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[queazocotal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?... Quadcopter holding an inverted pendulumn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?... - 2 axis inverted triple penduumn. (the joints are free to move)

The backing is the utterly trivial part.
The hard part is knowing what traffic laws to break, and when, and how to deal with others breaking laws and doing unexpected things.

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[toddestan]

I can only imagine how will this will actually work. First of all, I would imagine most "drivers" of autonomous cars aren't going to be paying as much attention to what is happening on the road as someone who is actively driving the car, so they are not likely to be prepared to be suddenly dumped into an emergency situation. Even if they are paying attention, there's still going to be the time needed for the driver to get their hands on the wheel, feet on the pedals, etc. And then you're going to have a driver that has potentially spent very little time actually driving a vehicle suddenly trying to handle an emergency situation, in a car they may have never actually driven before. It would be like a sudden quantum leap into an emergency situation behind the wheel of an unfamiliar car. Most people are going to wreck, even if they are an experience driver.

Quite likely we'd be better off letting the computer try to handle the situation best it could than hand the control over to the human.

Re:I suppose this is how we'll transition

[beastofburdon]

True, this would only make their deliveries take less time since now they can get sleep while they travel. They will have to be woken up in each state though, since they have to get gas in every state they drive through or pay taxes on it twice.

Disappointed our state...

[Anonymous Coward]

isn't standing against these safer cars for the wealthy. It isn't fair that they're getting safer cars.

Re: Disappointed our state...

[Anonymous Coward]

CA is in the middle of a war on the middle class. The elite Republicans that rule this state hate us. Of course they support safety inequality.

Re: Disappointed our state...

[Anonymous Coward]

Elite republicans rule the state? Oh boy ... you sir are delusional.

Re: Disappointed our state...

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL, wow I hope that is a lot of sarcasm in that line you just wrote, but I doubt it. Talk about doubling down on delusional big time!

Re: Disappointed our state...

[Anonymous Coward]

Our current ruler, Brown, is a DINO. Raygun was an ultra-CONservative white power racist. Wilson, who ruled for eight years, hated everyone, especially anyone with a job. Schwarzenegger was a Nazi in all but name. Deukmejian, who also ruled for eight years, was a Nixon-Republican. This state is hard-core ruled by those Republicans. They rule us with an iron fist. That is why this state is going downhill so fast. They are spewing cheap workers into the state as fast as they can in order to starve the working poor. That is what is wrong with CA. It's those Republicans.

Re: Disappointed our state...

[Anonymous Coward]

Elite republicans rule the state? Oh boy ... you sir are delusional.

Wat? We've only had four non-Republican rulers in the past hundred years. And, of the few Democrats that we've had, most are pretty damn conservative like Davis and Brown.

Re:Disappointed our state...

[siphonophore]

3/5 trolling. looks like some suckers took the bait.

Re: Disappointed our state...

[Anonymous Coward]

19 out of the past 24 governors have been Republicans. You gave no idea what you're talking about.

Re: Disappointed our state...

[Anonymous Coward]

Our current ruler, Brown, is a DINO

Funny, the Republicans kept saying Schwarzenegger was a RINO. Why is it that you guys think someone who only agrees with you on most things instead of all things is secretly a spy from the enemy camp?

Seems good for stuff still in testing and 3 years

[Joe_Dragon]

Seems good for stuff still in testing.

At least 3 years with drivers with special training in the operation of the 'autonomous' system seems like a good base line as it may take 3-5 years just for the laws / courts to work out stuff. also 3 years of logs can build up a lot of stuff / issues that will need to be fixed be for you can take away a driver.

Maybe 2 years in move to some like an autopilot where you still need to be some what ready to take over but can sit back a bit.

less popular than segway

[Anonymous Coward]

hairbrained schemes to keep us in the subscription hostage loop? we like driving ourselves around? unless we're inebriated? still free the innocent stem cells just in case there's still accidents?

Re:less popular than segway

[amRadioHed]

Who likes driving ourselves around? There's pretty much nothing I like less than staring at yellow stripes and break lights for however long while trying to get somewhere.

Moment?

[hawguy]

ready to take over on a moments notice

If the driver really can take a moment to take over, it's likely that whatever catastrophe that made manual control necessary will have already played out.

Re:Moment?

[KitFox]

An example would be the car sitting at a red light in a construction zone with new signals strung up and when an unrelated light turns green, the autonomous car releases the brakes and starts to move forward against a red for its lane. An alert individual can override and re-apply the brakes immediately similar to if they had a lapse of clarity and a moment of confusion and avoid crossing fully into opposing traffic.

Re:Moment?

[Anonymous Coward]

ready to take over on a moments notice

If the driver really can take a moment to take over, it's likely that whatever catastrophe that made manual control necessary will have already played out.

Yeah, the difference with a plane is that unless you're in a real steep dive you tend to have minutes to hit the ground rather than milliseconds.

Re:Moment?

[hawguy]

An example would be the car sitting at a red light in a construction zone with new signals strung up and when an unrelated light turns green, the autonomous car releases the brakes and starts to move forward against a red for its lane. An alert individual can override and re-apply the brakes immediately similar to if they had a lapse of clarity and a moment of confusion and avoid crossing fully into opposing traffic.

The problem is that the driver is not going to be alert -- drivers are barely alert even with fully manual cars, they surely are not going to be paying attention while stopped at a light, they are going to be playing Angry Birds.

Re:Moment?

[KitFox]

The problem is that the driver is not going to be alert -- drivers are barely alert even with fully manual cars, they surely are not going to be paying attention while stopped at a light, they are going to be playing Angry Birds.

Which simply means that the requirements will require alert drivers and no angry birds. This leads to the concept that California still considers the technology to be "In Development" and not for the average SMSing driver or general consumption. Which also leads to the implication that these requirements will be changed in the future when the technology is no longer in a testing phase.

To forestall responses that "It'll never change", I'll point out that very few open-stretch, long-haul freeways still have a speed limit of 55.

Re:Moment?

[hawguy]

The problem is that the driver is not going to be alert -- drivers are barely alert even with fully manual cars, they surely are not going to be paying attention while stopped at a light, they are going to be playing Angry Birds.

Which simply means that the requirements will require alert drivers and no angry birds. This leads to the concept that California still considers the technology to be "In Development" and not for the average SMSing driver or general consumption. Which also leads to the implication that these requirements will be changed in the future when the technology is no longer in a testing phase.

To forestall responses that "It'll never change", I'll point out that very few open-stretch, long-haul freeways still have a speed limit of 55.

Drivers are "required" to be alert today, yet that doesn't stop them from texting, putting on makeup, reading books (!) and lots of other things that divide their attention - they surely aren't going to pay *more* attention to their driving when the car is doing all of the work.

Re:Moment?

[KitFox]

Drivers are "required" to be alert today, yet that doesn't stop them from texting, putting on makeup, reading books (!) and lots of other things that divide their attention - they surely aren't going to pay *more* attention to their driving when the car is doing all of the work.

That makes it sound like "drivers" is all-inclusive. Probably as long as these requirements exist, the companies making the cars will only allow them to be operated by people who will not do that. It's not as if you can go to a dealership and buy a self-driving car, after all. Though of course the requirements will be taken as seriously as the penalties for not meeting them and as the likelihood of being caught. Penalties to likely include bad press as well as legal implications.

Can the autonomous vehicle pass a drivers test?

[Anonymous Coward]

Question: Why are we applying different standards to autonomous vehicles than humans?

Question: If a autonomous vehicle can pass the licensing requirement of a human driver why should it not be permitted on the road without a human?

I'm a little doubtful the autonomous vehicles can actually pass the drivers licensesing tests as they stand today mind you.

Re:Can the autonomous vehicle pass a drivers test?

[Daniel_Staal]

Because we know generally what types of failures humans have, and can design our tests around what types of competence we know will be required. Autonomous vehicles are a new situation, and have new failure or competence modes. Until we understand those modes, we can't understand what we need to test for correctly.

By letting them on the road with human drivers as overrides, we are limiting the worst-case modes, and allow for more real-world tests is a larger variety of situations so we can understand those modes.

Re:Can the autonomous vehicle pass a drivers test?

[bws111]

Because the drivers test does not cover everything you will encounter. For example, the other day I was parked in a parking deck at an event. The event ended, and everyone started to leave. But there was some problem near the exit. So they had a cop standing at a different part of the garage, motioning for people to ignore the 'exit' signs, and to drive back down the entrance ramp the wrong way. This put you on a one-way street also heading the wrong way. No problem, because the cops blocked the street. They then motioned you the wrong way down yet another one-way street, where you finally joined up with the normal traffic.

All that is covered by 'follow the directions of the police'. But is an autonomous vehicle going to understand the motions of an officer, and drive the wrong way on several streets? Humans had no problem with it.

Re:Can the autonomous vehicle pass a drivers test?

[AuMatar]

WHen you're learning to drive, you get a learner's permit and can drive with another experienced driver ready to assist. This is the equivalent for autonomous vehicles.

Re:Can the autonomous vehicle pass a drivers test?

[ClickOnThis]

But is an autonomous vehicle going to understand the motions of an officer, and drive the wrong way on several streets?

With proper use of beacons, signs and temporary signals, I don't see why not. For example, officers could be supplied with special batons, similar to those used by ground crews at airports.

Re:Can the autonomous vehicle pass a drivers test?

[vtcodger]

> With proper use of beacons, signs and temporary signals, I don't see why not. For example, officers could be supplied with special batons, similar to those used by ground crews at airports.

Of course. Or maybe the car will simply assume that any human looking artifact standing there waving at traffic in a certain way is an authority whose signals are to be followed. And maybe that'll work fine. It's going to take a number of years to sort out. But it will be more years than some folks assume because there are so many contingencies to deal with. And it'll be fewer than others assume.

Re:Can the autonomous vehicle pass a drivers test?

[ClickOnThis]

Or maybe the car will simply assume that any human looking artifact standing there waving at traffic in a certain way is an authority whose signals are to be followed.

That situation can be managed with some kind of strong authentication of the individual making the gestures, e.g., an exclusive coded signal in the light used to illuminate the batons.

Re:Can the autonomous vehicle pass a drivers test?

[FlyHelicopters]

All that is covered by 'follow the directions of the police'. But is an autonomous vehicle going to understand the motions of an officer, and drive the wrong way on several streets? Humans had no problem with it.

It doesn't have to...

"Siri, override traffic rules, exit down the entrance ramp, password 12345"

Re:Can the autonomous vehicle pass a drivers test?

[idji]

you mentioned "There was a problem near the exit". I am sure that was a human problem. If the cars were autonomous I am sure that the problem wouldn't have been there nor would there have been a flow problem.
This was a human fix for a human problem. And while human cops can interfere with normal driving behaviour, you can be sure that the drivers can still control their cars.

Re:Can the autonomous vehicle pass a drivers test?

[ClickOnThis]

"Siri, override traffic rules, exit down the entrance ramp, authorization Picard-Gamma-6-0-7-3."

FTFY

Re:Can the autonomous vehicle pass a drivers test?

[HiThere]

Don't be sure. Cars occasionally have mechanical problems that can result in their blocking the road. (I'll agree that your presumption that it was a human caused problem is probably correct, but that's probability, not certainty.)

Re:Can the autonomous vehicle pass a drivers test?

[tipo159]

But is an autonomous vehicle going to understand the motions of an officer, and drive the wrong way on several streets?

With proper use of beacons, signs and temporary signals, I don't see why not. For example, officers could be supplied with special batons, similar to those used by ground crews at airports.

Are you saying that autonomous vehicles can only work in redirected traffic if the people redirecting traffic have special batons? So, let's say there is a landslide and the road is partly obstructed and a good samaritan starts playing traffic cop because the real traffic cops can't get through the back up. Or, how about movers or home construction workers or anyone else dealing with an impromptu traffic redirection? How do autonomous vehicles not being able to determine how to follow directions from a person outside of the vehicle not make things worse in these conditions?

Re:Can the autonomous vehicle pass a drivers test?

[Anonymous Coward]

All that is covered by 'follow the directions of the police'. But is an autonomous vehicle going to understand the motions of an officer, and drive the wrong way on several streets? Humans had no problem with it.

This can easily be solved by pressing the big red "manual control" button and driving the car yourself until you get back into normal traffic.

So what?

[twotacocombo]

Who really wants a car that you can't manually control yourself, ever? Seems like a real pain in the ass for doing things like moving it a few feet so you can get something out of the garage, or putting it up on ramps so you can change your oil. Plus, I always thought part of the American experience was just going out for a drive for fun. Maybe going a little too fast, taking a corner a little too hot..a bit of adventure. Getting into a car that drives itself sounds about as exciting as riding the old Disneyland People Mover, everywhere you went.

Re:So what?

[R3d M3rcury]

Seems like a real pain in the ass for doing things like moving it a few feet so you can get something out of the garage [...]

Walk into the garage, see the shovel behind the car, say, "Siri, move the car into the driveway." Garage door opens and car moves into the driveway. Grab the shovel and say, "Okay, Siri, you can move the car back." Car moves back into the garage.

Versus walk into the garage, see the shovel behind the car, go back inside, get the car keys, come back out and get in the car, hit the remote for the garage door, drive out into the driveway, get out of the car, grab the shovel and put it someplace convenient, get back in the car, and move it into the garage, then grab the shovel.

The first one sounds much more convenient.

Plus, I always thought part of the American experience was just going out for a drive for fun.

There are enthusiasts who enjoy that, yes. But for the vast majority, a car is transportation from point A to point B.

Re:So what?

[queazocotal]

Me, personally. Due to medical problems, I have reaction times that mean I cannot safely drive.
Some sort of vehicle would be very handy.

Re:So what?

[twotacocombo]

Sure, a car that drives itself would be very handy for lots of people. I'm not saying that we don't make cars that can drive themselves, I'm questioning the reasoning behind cars that can ONLY drive themselves.

Re:So what?

[kheldan]

Never fear, friend, there will always be a full set of manual controls, and all vehicle operators will be required to be educated, trained, tested, licensed, and insured, probably more rigidly so than today, because laziness will cause an atrophy of skills otherwise.

Re:So what?

[vtcodger]

My fear is that they will take away the steering wheel, gear shift and brakes and give me some gawdawful touch screen interface that is almost impossible to use. That's annoying on an entertainment device. It's likely to be dangerous or lethal in a vehicle control system.

Might be OK if I only have to use it once or twice a year.

But of course automotive engineers are far too clever to do that. Rig...............ht.

Re:So what?

[FlyHelicopters]

Sure, a car that drives itself would be very handy for lots of people. I'm not saying that we don't make cars that can drive themselves, I'm questioning the reasoning behind cars that can ONLY drive themselves.

Not everyone can drive, but most people think they can.

With cars that only drive themselves, you could make the driving test much stricter and only allow people to drive cars that really can do it well.

Re:So what?

[twotacocombo]

Not everyone can drive, but most people think they can.

With cars that only drive themselves, you could make the driving test much stricter and only allow people to drive cars that really can do it well.

I believe most people can drive adequately, in a driving test situation. What the tests can't account for is what they do in their every day travels, including drinking, eating, texting, being drunk/high, and just generally not being attentive. You don't have to have racing skills to operate a car, you just have to operate the damn thing above all else.

Re:So what?

[Kjella]

Who really wants a car that you can't manually control yourself, ever? Seems like a real pain in the ass for doing things like moving it a few feet so you can get something out of the garage, or putting it up on ramps so you can change your oil.

I don't know about the US, but here in Norway (and I imagine most the EU) there's an exemption for anything that goes less than 10 km/h (6 mph) like electric wheelchairs and whatnot. If in addition it has 360 degree sensors and will refuse to bump into objects, run over kids or pets or off sharp drops I would think all but the mentally challenged, demented and very young children would be permitted to nudge it around. I don't think they want to want to map out the "rules of the road" for driveways and parking garages or where you just park on the lawn.

Re:So what?

[brunes69]

You are thinking far too small. Why would you park a car you don't own in your garage or change it's oil?

Autonomous cars won't be owned by individuals. They will owned by Uber and Lyft and other such companies.

Why would anyone go through the expense and hassle of owning their own car when I can use Uber to summon an autonomous car from it's fleet of thousands to arrive to pick me up in under a minute, and take me where I want. On-demand transport will be orders of magnitude cheaper than owning a vehicle because there isn't the cost of a driver to pay anymore, so the cost of booking a ride will be substantially less.

This is the real paradigm shift of autonomous cars.

Re:So what?

[mrprogrammerman]

Unfortunately a lot of people without medical problems also have bad reaction times and shouldn't be driving also but don't realize it. If a person has to drive so slowly to be able to maintain control they actually create a hazard and shouldn't be driving.

Re:So what?

[HiThere]

I do. I hated driving back when I did it, but I really liked the convenience of having a car. Additionally, I know I'm not a safe driver. I'm near-sighted, blind in one eye, and tend to lose myself in thought.

I would *LOVE* to have a car that I didn't need to drive. (Now, when it's convenient for her, I have my wife drive me. Otherwise I depend on public transit, about which I can only say...UGH.

P.S.: With my eyesight the DMV would not give me a license until I had a recent certification by an optometrist that my eyesight could not be corrected to be better. With that certificate they had no problem issuing the license...but I was dubious about accepting it. OTOH, if I were to try today they'd probably refuse me the license even with the note from my doctor. (They sure ought to!)

Really?

[MitchDev]

"There must be a licensed driver behind the wheel at all times, alert and ready to take over on a moments notice"

Kinda defeats the whole purpose of the autonomous car, might as well just drive rather than having to pretend to drive and ready to take the wheel instantly...

Re:Really?

[Ravaldy]

I feel the same but suspect it's temporary until we can start trusting the tech the not so trust worthy humans are building.

Re:Really?

[suutar]

The phrasing of the actual draft requirement is "capable of taking control in the event of a technology failure or other emergency", which need not require instant response, merely being prepared and legally allowed to operate the vehicle when the automation can't. Like in the scenario someone posted above where getting out of a parking deck involved going the wrong way down 3 one-way segments.

Re:Really?

[vtcodger]

"Kinda defeats the whole purpose of the autonomous car, might as well just drive rather than having to pretend to drive and ready to take the wheel instantly..."

I suspect that will evolve into, you have to be in the driver's seat and not totally dysfunctional. But the car will tell you if it needs help. You can text, listen to music, think beautiful thoughts, sleep, plot revenge on your coworkers for real or imagined slights, etc. You just have to be available if the car needs help with a difficult situation.

And eventually that'll evolve into the car will check with the qualified driver if there is one and otherwise will pull over as safely as it can and call for assistance.

Re:Really?

[Yath]

This is because the cars are still in the testing phase. Nobody is allowing cars to operate autonomously on public roads yet.

Obligatory Princess Bride reference

[bbsguru]

"Autonomous". You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means...

So, "self-driving" cars will require licensed drivers with more qualifications than every other car on the road. Brilliant!

Re:Obligatory Princess Bride reference

[siphonophore]

Luddites gonna ludd

Re:Seems good for stuff still in testing and 3 yea

[siphonophore]

In a few years when there are a number of solutions not in testing, these regs will really bite.

Even today, what problem does the "licensed driver" rule solve? How may people have been injured, how much property has been destroyed, by automated cars not having a driver?

Beware when a government thinks it's innovating. They aren't do-ers, they're don't-ers. When there exists no actual problem, mandating a solution is lunacy.

GeoHotz and likes

[Anonymous Coward]

How does the regulation handle those startups doing test runs? They are technically not "manufacturers."

Re:Seems good for stuff still in testing and 3 yea

[bws111]

The licensed driver solves the liability problem. If your car causes an accident, you are at fault.

Re:Seems good for stuff still in testing and 3 yea

[siphonophore]

This misses one of the biggest upsides of car autonomy. The manufacturer assumes all liability, resulting in a much much more efficient auto insurance market and a big headache removed from consumers.

Volkswagen already did said they'd assume it.

Re:Seems good for stuff still in testing and 3 yea

[suutar]

or at least if the computer throws up its hands the licensed driver is legally allowed to drive the car home (assuming it can go, of course).

End of cruise control?

[Steve1952]

California better be careful with the definitions here. What exactly is "autonomous?" If written poorly, this could cover present day Tesla methods, or even older methods like cruise control that drive the car "autonomously" at a constant speed. If California wanted to ban this kind of thing, but wanted to be passive aggressive about it, would the draft read much differently?

Re:End of cruise control?

[bws111]

Oddly enough, this law, like all the other laws, has a definitions section. Here is the definition they use:

“Autonomous vehicle” means any vehicle equipped with technology that has the
capability of operating or driving the vehicle without the active physical control or monitoring of
a natural person, whether or not the technology is engaged, excluding vehicles
equipped with one
or more systems that enhance safety or provide driver assistance but are not capable of driving or
operating the vehicle without the active physical control or monitoring of a natural person.

So no, cruise control, etc, do not count.

Re: End of cruise control?

[Anonymous Coward]

Cruise control is capable of operating my car. It just does a really bad job of it!

Re:Seems good for stuff still in testing and 3 yea

[ultranova]

The licensed driver solves the liability problem. If your car causes an accident, you are at fault.

Except you aren't, because you weren't driving, because the autopilot was. That's what it's for, after all.

Quest. Drunk/ancient OK?

[gurps_npc]

That's the real question. Is the 94 year old man that really has no business behind a wheel, an acceptable 'driver' in a driverless car?

And far more commonly, if you've had 12 shots in 2 hours, can you get arrested for being the driver in a driverless car? Will the cop even notice? Will the car test your breath?

Because these are the primary reasons for a normal customer to buy one of these things.

Following the trend with autopilots in airplanes

[Anonymous Coward]

Since at least some planes can do a fully autonomous flight, it seems that we have a nice precedent for autos. In the case of planes the pilot is always
responsible for the flight even if the autopilot screws up. Now the training makes sense because even pilots with lots of training have screwed up and let the autopilot fly the plane into the ground or other mishaps.

Re:Seems good for stuff still in testing and 3 yea

[squiggleslash]

It's the opposite really, the licensed driver simply creates more confusion as to who was responsible for an accident. And no, a few legal precedents aren't likely to fix it, as these kinds of civil lawsuits rarely end up pointing the finger at one entity and saying "That person's 100% at fault".

This is, I suspect, part of the reason why companies selling the cars are keen on establishing the principle they'll be responsible come what may. Uncertainty and lawyer's bills are worse than a set of simple principles that can be priced into a sold (or more likely leased) product.

Re:Seems good for stuff still in testing and 3 yea

[amRadioHed]

Google said they'd assume liability as well.

No PEs at car companies

[ishmaelflood]

Car companies don't use PEs, at two I have worked at we were discouraged from putting it on our business cards. Industry exemption and all that.

Summary of the draft:

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

1. All autonomous motor vehicles must be preceded by a human drive motor vehicle, carrying a flag

2. At every cross road the pilot vehicle and the autonomous vehicle should come to a complete stop and the pilot vehicle should light a fire cracker to warn other motorists

3. False fronts and covers must be fitted to the autonomous vehicle so that it does not cause fear or cause frighten human drivers .

PE is not used in automotive field.

[Elfich47]

To my understanding PE stamps are not normally used for machinery design or automotive design. Those designs go through a huge number of regulatory hurdles and certification processes (crash test, MPG, fire control, UI layout, handling and roll over, electrical breakers, etc etc etc) that take the place of the PE stamp. If you were going to require PE stamps for an automotive design you would end up with thirty or forty stamps for each part of the design - engine, transmission, suspension, drive train below the transmission, electrical, outer shell, interior layout, crash management, pollution control, specialty sub systems within each of the primary systems. The company that is designing, assembling and selling the finished product is liable for all of the certifications and regulations that are required to put a car on the road.

The reason why there are so many certifications and regulations around a mass manufactured item (cars, toys, appliances, garden tools) is the sheer number of them put on the market. Because someone is producing 500,000 units of a given thing means that more oversight is required because more people could be injured if there is a mistake or oversight in design.

Most cases I see where a stamp is required: The item being designed is a one-off or custom job. You need someone who has the authority to make the call that something is safe and will perform as advertised.

Hell, my PE application (still applying, not approved to take the exam yet) doesn't list Automotive as an option. Maybe you could file care design as an Industrial PE item. Everything else doesn't fit (Civil, Nuclear, Aero, Mining, Architecture, Chemical, Petroleum, Fire Protection, Electrical, Metaullurgy, HVAC, or Naval).

driverless cars with driver features

[twasserman]

Aaron Levie of Box tweeted that if the California DMV existed when cars first hit the road, then they would have required Ford to include a horse in each car. Exactly right.

There will come a point down the road (sorry for the pun) when my wife and I will no longer be able to pass a driving test and thus drive. Rather than being stuck at home, as is now the case for many people, I want to be able to call up a driverless car in the same way that I would call a car service today, and then use it for point-to-point local transportation. While I greatly enjoy the opportunity to drive myself around, I'm not going to need a steering wheel or normal pedals in that situation. An emergency brake and a web-connected alarm, a la OnStar, will be enough. I hope that the legislatures in other states don't follow the erroneous lead of California.

"safe from cyber-attack"

[Anonymous Coward]

"there must be proof from the manufacturer that the vehicle is safe from cyber-attack"

Exactly how do you prove it is safe from, the oh so well defined, "cyber-attack"?

Lidar in your eyeballs

[Anonymous Coward]

Autonomous cars is bothersome because of the use of lidar and radar sensors to map the surroundings.
I don't want laser beamed into my eyeballs or more radar wave saturating the air.
One of the requirements imposed by DMV need to be zero active sensor.

I'm just worried

[rsilvergun]

that we won't do that. We can always let those people stave. Most countries do :(...

Re: I'm just worried

[Anonymous Coward]

People don't starve in the US due to poverty. Haven't seen a single report of that in my entire life.

Plenty of people did from morbid obesity though. Often at the low to no income end of the economic spectrum.

This is the point where you blame that on a lack of convenient access to artisanal grown organic veggies . Go ahead.

Replace everyone middle and below with ex-truckers

[Anonymous Coward]

The out of work truck drivers should do reasonably well. For the former truck driver, if the driver was actually doing his job, the resume would involve staying off drugs, not being a felon, working long hours, handling hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of freight and equipment at a time (millions over a career and sometimes millions in consequences for a single mistake), and keeping things safe and legal.

Red Flag

[Zobeid]

I'm surprised they don't require somebody to walk ahead of the autonomous vehicle waving a red flag to warn everyone of its approach.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Great start,ends in failure

[lazy genes]

Sustainability is missing in this project. The transportation system needs to be totally re-thought. Transportation systems need to include all the utilities needed for civilization. Think of a rail system made out of pipes that supply gas,electric,sewer, ect. The track will be manufactured and brought to the site in sections. The track will have its own computer system that will be able to monitor traffic. Our current system is so unsustainable that a rail system will pay back in 5 years.

So I'm still accountable?

[epyT-R]

Then I want control, sorry. There is no point to the automation. The fact is the automation would encourage more attention deficit from the 'driver.'

Am I the only one...

[ai4px]

Who first read the word "Draft" in the context of the headline and thought of NASCAR drafting for better fuel econ?