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Why Is So Much Reported Science Wrong (berkeley.edu)

An anonymous reader writes: An article from Berkeley's California Magazine explains some of the reasons science reporting is often at odds with actual science. Quoting: "Where journalism favors neat story arcs, science progresses jerkily, with false starts and misdirections in a long, uneven path to the truth—or at least to scientific consensus. The types of stories that reporters choose to pursue can also be a problem, says Peter Aldhous, [lecturer and reporter]. 'As journalists, we tend to gravitate to the counterintuitive, the surprising, the man-bites-dog story,' he explains. 'In science, that can lead us into highlighting stuff that's less likely to be correct.' If a finding is surprising or anomalous, in other words, there's a good chance that it's wrong.

On the flip side, when good findings do get published, they're often not as earth shattering as a writer might hope. ... So journalists and their editors might spice up a study's findings a bit, stick the caveats at the end, and write an eye-catching, snappy headline—not necessarily with the intent to mislead, but making it that much more likely for readers to misinterpret the results." The article also makes suggestions for both journalists and the scientific community to keep science reporting interesting while being more accurate.

36 of 294 comments (clear)

  1. It's wrong because... by surfdaddy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    ...our generation has largely given up on science. We all reap the benefits but I find the level of science education to be abysmal. People can't distinguish between fact and fiction in news reporting and our wonderful government (many of them) don't want to believe *actual data* about things like global warming, etc. - because it's not "convenient" for their economic or religious beliefs. And of course some of those people become the reporters that report on these things, and they are ignorant, too.

    It's really quite sad. We got to #1 in this world because of science, but we are turning into a society of cultish freaks who don't wan't to believe anything they don't like, regardless of the actual evidence.

    1. Re:It's wrong because... by NotInHere · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The science of earlier generations was weird as well. I think, that compared with the past, we live in a golden age of science.

      Think of the racism theories from the beginning of the 20th century. 200 years ago, a large part of the population couldn't even read properly. Slavery was common, the slaves being mostly used for work, without education of course. 500 years ago scientists fought with the church wanting to control science, refuting heliocentrism. And this is only about elites. Science hasn't reached normal people for a long time. We had quite a progress since then.

    2. Re:It's wrong because... by roccomaglio · · Score: 2, Interesting

      People involved in politics have noticed that science can be used to help them advocate for changes they would like. There are many studies that are designed to provide a talking point rather than actually determine if something is really the case. This is unfortunate and leads people to trust science less because they see numerous instance where the science was politicized.

    3. Re:It's wrong because... by MightyMartian · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Because the tobacco companies in their turn, and the fossil fuels companies in their turn, didn't collude to attack any science that suggested their products were harmful.

      As to Creationists, well, they are the prototypical pseudoscientists, and much of the anti-science strategy used by the tobacco and fossil fuel industries to attack science is largely lifted from the hard work Creationists put into attacking biology.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    4. Re:It's wrong because... by the+gnat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The science of earlier generations was weird as well. I think, that compared with the past, we live in a golden age of science.

      Any time someone bewails the decline of American intellects, this is usually the correct response. At no point in history has the US or any other nation been populated by a majority of sober, thoughtful, rational individuals. There has always been a large population of idiots, and always will be. We only think it's worse now because mass media makes it much easier for idiots to be heard, and, as this is still a liberal democracy of sorts, even idiots are allowed to speak their mind and vote. (And I wouldn't have it any other way.) Oh, and of course thanks to science-informed advances in medicine and public health, these idiots now have a life expectancy roughly double what it was at the start of the 20th century, so they have more time to complain. At the same time, we (educated Americans) tend to be exposed primarily to domestic idiocy, so we don't have an opportunity to observe how stupid and irrational people in other countries are. I only ever meet exceptionally smart and motivated Indians, for example, but I've read enough about India to know that a large part of the country makes Appalachia look like Marin County.

      In addition, in the last 50 years science has actually had a significant impact on public policy - so, naturally, there is a corporate-sponsored backlash against it that would have been unthinkable in less enlightened times. Many aspects of the popular backlash are related; the creationist movement is essentially reactionary and would not have existed before the courts started ruling that you can't use the public schools to teach religion (a use that had previously been relatively uncontroversial, since no one really gave a shit what the Jews thought and they certainly didn't care about the atheists).

    5. Re:It's wrong because... by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Science is in the open, but I pin most of the reporting woes on reporters that really don't understand what they are reporting on. They read a little and think they understand enough to report, but the devil is always in the details. They don't do the research, they can't educate the reader so they try to 'wow' the reader with cool claims. In addition, there is no skepticism when it comes to claims of breakthroughs. And almost never do they take a look at the credentials of those performing the science. Anybody can be a science reporter. Anybody can call them-self a scientist as well.

    6. Re:It's wrong because... by DerangedAlchemist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Many scientists today refuse to let facts get in the way of their theories.

      That is a complete myth and would be irrelevant even if it were true. Regardless on what your hypothesis is, in science you present evidence for or against it. Others can verify your claims. That is why, in science, frauds are eventually exposed, unlike virtually anything else. This is also why science has such a strong reputation.

      By the way, you are confusing the difference between a hypothesis, a scientific theory and the layman theory.

    7. Re:It's wrong because... by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 2

      500 years ago scientists fought with the church wanting to control science, refuting heliocentrism.

      Oh? That would be why the guy who came up with the notion of heliocentrism was a Catholic Monk, right? Yes, Copernicus was a Dominican.

      You're probably thinking of that Galileo kerfluffle, where Galileo called the Pope an idiot in his book about heliocentrism, and the Pope got in a snit at being called a simpleton? Hint: Galileo got in trouble for calling the Pope an idiot, not for heliocentrism, which idea was developed by that aforementioned Dominican....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    8. Re:It's wrong because... by the+gnat · · Score: 2

      the reporter and the anchors were joking about how they not only not understood this, but they didn't understand physics at all. They were proud of their ignorance, laughing it up.

      It's extremely difficult for a layperson to understand physics at that level. I have a PhD in biology and I don't understand most of modern physics either; I try not to be proud of my ignorance, but I do try to be completely honest about it. If I were trying to discuss it on a newscast I'm not sure what I could do other than try to lighten the mood.

    9. Re:It's wrong because... by Princeofcups · · Score: 2

      The science of earlier generations was weird as well. I think, that compared with the past, we live in a golden age of science.

      Any time someone bewails the decline of American intellects, this is usually the correct response. At no point in history has the US or any other nation been populated by a majority of sober, thoughtful, rational individuals. There has always been a large population of idiots, and always will be. We only think it's worse now because mass media makes it much easier for idiots to be heard, and, as this is still a liberal democracy of sorts, even idiots are allowed to speak their mind and vote.

      The problem is that those same idiots have more politics power right now than any other time in the country's history. Science used to drive industry. Now that industry is trying to control science. Research used to be the domain of dedicated private researchers. Now pretty much all university and lab funding comes from corporations who don't care about the long term health of the country, only today's profits. In an economy where stocks are bought and sold in seconds, there is no way that long term research is going to be prized.

      --
      The only thing worse than a Democrat is a Republican.
    10. Re:It's wrong because... by mjwx · · Score: 2

      Science is in the open, but I pin most of the reporting woes on reporters that really don't understand what they are reporting on.

      That isn't really the problem. The problem is that most science is boring, making for boring reports. No-one buys boring newspapers, especially in this day an age. So editors and reporters change key details and make some things up completely just to get eyeballs.

      Every paper who printed the headline "everything is just fine" has gone out of business.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    11. Re:It's wrong because... by KGIII · · Score: 2

      A lot of people seem really fond of misremembering the past as if it was somehow better. One of my favorites is about how journalists are biased today and that we used to have a lot more investigative, hard hitting, unbiased journalism that exposed the truth. It's usually from young people who weren't actually there. In the example that I used, the history of yellow journalism would be a good indicator that they may be off in the wrong direction.

      Hell, the first use of a DOS attack or electronic sabotage was in the America's Cup. A journalist, using a spark-something-or-other, managed to get the results of the race through to the telegraph office and then proceeded to hold the friggin' button down for the next hour so that none of the other journalists could get the story out.

      This Utopian past never existed. They're as bad as the conservatives who pine for the glory days of the 1950s because everything was rosy then. It never was the way they envisioned it. The past is never as good as is remembered. History is just the story we agree to tell each other so as to not look or feel too bad. Take a real look at it and you'll find it was never good.

      It's like people complaining that /. used to be good. Heh... I'm on my second account (lost the first one and the email address associated with it and don't recall the username) and I've been coming here for a very long time. No... If I put on my rose-tinted glasses I might go so far as to say that Slashdot was once better but damned if I'm going to be so dishonest as to say that it was *ever* good.

      "That's not news for nerds!!!" Nope... We've had that complaint forever.
      "Slashdot editors suck since Dice bought them!" Heh... Yeah, no... They've always sucked.
      "We used to able to crash servers!" Yeah, I used to be able to lock the brakes up in my car. They improved the infrastructure.
      "Slashdot posters used to be smarter!" Err... Just no... Well, maybe some truth. However, I just recently re-read a thread about the announced product known as VMWare and the general consensus was that it'd never catch on, was a waste of money, and nobody would have a use for it. Maybe three people actually understood what was going on. The rest ranted and raved about it without actually even understanding what it was. I doubt they read the summary or article.

      So, there's an example of a rose-tinted view that's a bit closer to home. I've never looked but I suspect there's some actual research done on how people envision or selectively remember the past. There might even been a five-syllable word to describe it, I don't know. It's kind of odd and I don't understand why it is that people do this sort of thing. I'm probably not entirely immune to it but I do try to keep myself in check because I'm aware of the trend.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    12. Re:It's wrong because... by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Every paper who printed the headline "everything is just fine" has gone out of business.

      And that's the larger point here: the news distorts EVERTHING, not just science.

      Newspapers sell by sensationalizing everything. It's why public fears are so out of whack with reality -- you read the paper today, and there's a plane crash, a drive-by shooting in another city, and a terrorist attack in another country. Thus the public worries about these things when they could prevent orders of magnitude more deaths by encouraging public officials to target actual everyday common issues that kill lots of people, like car crashes for example. A car crash that kills someone barely makes the back part of the local section, but something rare and weird ("shark bites swimmer!!!") gets the front page.

      The news distorts everything and causes us to take disproportionate notice of rare and misleading stuff. Its distortion of science is no different, so I think it's a bit weird to single out science here. Reporters commonly don't do research, emphasize the rare or weird, and make common errors while burying nuance that would make the story less interesting. It doesn't matter whether the topic is science or crime or accidents or political issues or whatever... the mundane stuff that actually is the most relevant to our lives often isn't newsworthy.

  2. Because hype sells more papers than truth by penguinoid · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Also, journalists have become corrupt little trolls, trolls matching exactly the "throw something out there and see if anyone will bite" definition.

    --
    Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
    1. Re:Because hype sells more papers than truth by hawkfish · · Score: 2

      That's a mistatement. The problem is that controversy and conflict drives page hits and viewership. so their is a strong economic incentive to present sensational headline, not inciteful journalism.

      Speaking of misstatements, I think you meant "insightful". Inciteful journalism is the problem you are pointing out!

      --
      You will not drink with us, but you would taste our steel? - Walter Matthau, The Pirates
  3. Reporters are dim by mveloso · · Score: 2

    Science reporting is bad because reporters are lazy and rewrite press releases.

    If they did simple things, like looked at absolute numbers instead of percentages, or understood absolute and relative risks, or even understood statistics they might do a better job. But that requires math and statistical knowledge, both of which are hard for reporters. If they could do those they wouldn't have been reporters.

    Maybe they could apply some critical thinking skills too? Although a reporter with no credentials probably wouldn't get real far down that path.

    1. Re:Reporters are dim by hey! · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Science reporting is bad because reporters are lazy and rewrite press releases.

      Science reporting is bad because major news outlets have eliminated their budget for people who can do more than this. Thirty years ago many US daily newspapers had dedicated science reporters who put out a weekly "science" section for the paper and covered big science stories as they arose. These reporters had a high degree of familiarity with science topics because this was their beat. The dedicated science journalist and the weekly science supplement are well on their way to becoming extinct.

      This is part of a general shift away from expensive, financially speculative "shoe leather journalism" toward cheap, profitable "opinion journalism". This is why on breaking news stories you'll see broadcast news services filling up time with frank speculation, which is the cheapest to produce kind of "information" there is. The intersection of slashed news-gathering capability and a 7x24 news cycle leaves them in a situation like having a half pat of butter to spread on a whole loaf of bread.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  4. "Journalists" stopped being journalists years ago by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    When you chase any story for "ratings", you're doing it wrong. Just report the facts and stop trying to write fiction. All we have today are a bunch of short story writers who base their story on some truth but try to sensationalize the story to sell more papers, commercials, etc.

    You write entertainment, not news, which is not the way it used to be. Unfortunately the true news journalists are either dead or retired.

  5. Re:scientific consensus by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And if you think scientific consensus is an oxymoron, then you don't understand how science works at all. This idea that science is nothing more than a pack of edifice-building conspirators being toppled by a few brave sacred cow tippers is absurd and demonstrates a complete ignorance of how science works, and how scientists interact. Providing all concerned understand that a well supported and accepted theory still remains a theory, and it's "truth" is provisional, there is absolutely nothing wrong with consensus.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  6. That's how Science Works by NReitzel · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It is unfortunate that in this day and age, it is necessary to explain how science works, and why it is different from other belief systems.

    First science is a belief system. The fundamental axiom of science is that an objective reality exists, is independent of the observer, and that by investigation, truths about that reality can be discovered.

    What makes it work is that progress in science depends critically on getting it wrong. A couple hundred years ago, people were looking at fire (Fire's Cool), and wondering how it works. Deep thinkers thought deeply about it, and came up with a hypothesis: There was this stuff, phlogiston, that escaped into the air and that was why fire burned, and why stuff that burned mostly disappeared. Good theory.

    Then some pesky scientists - who were trying to put numbers to how much phlogiston was in different things - discovered that if you sealed up stuff, so air couldn't get in or out, and burned something, the weight was exactly the same. Hmm. The scientists first concluded that they had captured phlogiston. Great, let's figure ot what it is. Except that burning different things, led to different kinds of phlogiston. The science was a little wrong.

    New experiments brought new results. Burning magnesium led to a weight gain, not a loss, so maybe it captured phlogiston. If that were true, then the ash (calx) should burn, right? More phlogiston! Except that it would not. More problems.

    To shorten what could be a very long story, in 1774 or thereabouts, two scientists separately and independently came up with a more correct explanation, something to do with oxygen. In 200 years, their explanation has not yet been found to be fundamentally wrong.

    Science moves forward by being wrong. A theory is presented, scientists test it's limits, and if there are things that are wrong, they are made better. The process repeats. Every time a mistake is found, every time science is wrong, it gets better. It's like a fine wine, it improves with age. Also, like a fine wine, it is not democratic. The fact that a whole lot of people seem to prefer that Thunder-stuff wine, does not make it a fine wine. The fact that a lot of people disagree with a scientific principle does not make it wrong, just unpopular.

    Why is so much science wrong? Well, Homer, that's how it works.

    --

    Don't take life too seriously; it isn't permanent.

  7. My 2c by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I use to have a job editing and translating news pieces from a well-known American newspaper into an Asian language for the local readers. Due to my science background, I was frequently assigned the science news. I didn't need to deal with the journalists directly but I worked with the editors.

    Those guys were good and intelligent people to work with, but most of them lacked a science background. I had to do rounds of push and pull with the scientific bits. Translating the English word "space" as in relativistic space-time was not the same as translating it in the context of flying to the earth orbit, and I needed to tell them about it. And while I sometimes added my tiny clarifications to the originally unclear message (read: journalist crap), I had to write much longer notes for them.

    Also, they were more concerned with the readers' psychological response than scientific rigor. I might have preferred a technically correct way of saying things, but they pointed out that it didn't fit very nicely into the general tone and style of the whole website (not just the article's, but their "overall" style). Very good points, but at first both of us were surprised by each other. We learned to work it out, taking compromises, and I tried to influence them, with limited success.

    The moral was that journalists have vastly different priorities compared with a science/tech writer. They may do a good job of notifying the public, but informing, not so much. They paint an image of what it looks and feels like, in a kinda impressionist way, but reading it for education is like studying Monet's lilyponds for botany. The good ones will provide link to sources so the interested reader can dig deeper and judge by himself. The poor ones sell clickbaits.

  8. Multiple reasons by infernalC · · Score: 2

    Part of the problem is that most scientists are not journalists, and most journalists are not scientists. If a journalist takes enough time to become an expert in the scientific field he is reporting on, it isn't likely that he will ever come to market with his product, the reports, in a timely enough fashion to actually make a living on it.

    Part of the problem is that many scientists lack the literary skill to communicate effectively with laypeople, and have to rely too much on journalists who don't have the competence needed to report on the subject material.

    Another problem is that the proletariat crave the truth... the conclusions. As a mathematician, I reject the notion that empirical science determines truth. Yes, you can craft an experiment with reproducible results, but your results will still be just empirical observations. If you do a study, and find out that there is approximately a 78% correlation between wearing blue sweaters and getting hives, and that this result was reproduced three times given blah blah , then report that. Don't report that blue sweaters cause hives. Oh wait, the only thing the public cares about is what caused the hives... they have no appreciation for the results being what they are. The public wants to extrapolate conclusions only.

    I like mathematics. Assuming a few axioms, prove something. What you then have is truth.

  9. You're asking the question wrong... by VeritasRoss · · Score: 2

    Why is so much reported _anything_ wrong? The media wants to come across as the trusted expert on everything, but the truth is they don't know squat about anything.

    --
    If my post were a car, this sig would be its bumper-sticker.
  10. Science Reporting by Jason+Levine · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Short Answer: Obligatory PHD Comics: The Science New Cycle

    Longer Answer: Reporters know "Scientists have found that X is weakly correlated with an increase in Y. More studies will clarify whether this is correlation, causation, or whether the first study was incorrect." won't generate views (or sell papers for the old school newspaper folks in the house). Instead "X found to cause Y" is a much better headline for generating more views. Even better is clickbait like "You won't believe the horrible things X has been found to cause!" So reporters go for the most sensational spin on the scientific study in order to get more views.

    The side effect of this is a mistrust of scientists who "can't make up their minds." After all, today it's being reported that "X directly leads to Y, scientists 100% sure." Tomorrow, though, the reporting says "X shown to have no effect on Y!" The actual details of the studies don't matter. It doesn't matter that this is how science works (someone tests a theory, proves or disproves it, and then others try to replicate it). It doesn't matter that science "changing its mind" isn't a weakness, but a strength of science. All that matters is that the headlines changed so scientists must not know what they're doing. Luckily, the local creationist/anti-vax proponent/homeopath/etc says they know what's what and they insist that they would never change their story.

    --
    My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
  11. Citation [Re:It's wrong because...] by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 4, Informative

    As to Creationists, well, they are the prototypical pseudoscientists, and much of the anti-science strategy used by the tobacco and fossil fuel industries to attack science is largely lifted from the hard work Creationists put into attacking biology.

    Cite please?

    The most comprehensive citation would be the book The Merchants of Doubt: http://www.amazon.com/Merchant...
    But you could start here: http://scienceblogs.com/denial...

    --
    http://www.geoffreylandis.com
    1. Re:Citation [Re:It's wrong because...] by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 2

      You're mixing two different arguments here.

      What allot forget is that our modern society exists because of cheap energy.

      Nobody is forgetting that. But it is irrelevant to the point. The point being made was that the anti-science strategy used to cast doubt on climate science uses the techniques previously used by the tobacco companies and before that by the creationists to cast doubt on science.

      So yes, it will take quite a bit of convincing for most people that oil is a bad thing.

      nevertheless the strategies used to cast doubt on climate science are the same techniques previously used by the tobacco companies and creationists.

      If you don't like those references, there are plenty more. The techniques used are the same, and in some cases, the actual people are the same as well.

      http://www.skepticalscience.co...
      http://www.psmag.com/nature-an...
      http://www.earthmagazine.org/a...

      --
      http://www.geoffreylandis.com
    2. Re:Citation [Re:It's wrong because...] by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 2

      I am not mixing anything. When something has benefits and drawbacks, its important to weight them against each other. Making decisions without considering the impacts is irresponsible.

      But the discussion wasn't about "benefits and drawbacks," nor even about making decisions. It was a single, very specific point: anonymous coward asked for a citation for a statement that "the anti-science strategy used by the tobacco and fossil fuel industries to attack science is largely lifted from the hard work Creationists put into attacking biology", and I provided some citations-- five of them, in fact.

      If you don't like the citations, that's your prerogative. Feel free to research the point and find your own set of references that either support or contradict the thesis.

      --
      http://www.geoffreylandis.com
  12. The Simple Reason... by Foobar+of+Borg · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...is that journalists generally don't know what they are talking about when it comes to science. They live in a world of politics and history, and they often even screw those up. It is generally accepted that, as a journalist, you don't really need to know the details of something, since an expert can explain it to you.

    That said, science journalism, as bad as it is now, is still a lot better than in the 1970s. Then, they really didn't know anything. That's why you get stupid articles in Time and Newsweek about "global cooling" and the "coming ice age", even though actual scientists like Carl Sagan are rolling their eyes at the stupidity of journalists.

  13. What is scientific consensus by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 3, Informative

    "consensus" is a summarizing word.

    What it means is that science does not actually consist of one scientist doing something and announcing a result.

    It's science when that scientist convinces other scientists using evidence and clear, step by step reasoning that their theory is right.

    Any nut can announce a theory, and tell the world how groundbreaking it is-- and many do. The hard part of science is filling in the details, so that you can show your work to other scientists and have them understand it and believe it. That's science.

    --
    http://www.geoffreylandis.com
    1. Re:What is scientific consensus by nine-times · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's science when that scientist convinces other scientists using evidence and clear, step by step reasoning that their theory is right.

      Well... honestly, no, that's not science. If you look at attempts to formalize the scientific method, you probably won't see a step that is, "convince other people", and there's a reason for that. The process of convincing other people is political, and not really a scientific process.

      Now there's a good reason people talk about reaching a scientific consensus, which implies that they're reaching a consensus on a scientific concept by using scientific evidence. The word "scientific" here is a modifier to indicate the subject matter. It's like saying, "I'm going to a scientific lecture at school." It doesn't make lectures part of the scientific method, it just indicates the kind of lecture you're going to.

      Science is not a body of canonized knowledge. It's not "the collection of all ideas that you can convince scientists of." Science is a process that aims to develop certainty based on empirical evidence, regardless of whether you can convince a single other person.

    2. Re:What is scientific consensus by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 2

      Well... honestly, no, that's not science. If you look at attempts to formalize the scientific method, you probably won't see a step that is, "convince other people",

      If you look more carefully, yes, you do see that step. It is sometimes phrased differently, but it's always there.

      For example, here's the UK science council listing of the scientific method http://www.sciencecouncil.org/... . The final step: "critical exposure to scrutiny, peer review and assessment"
      In other words: convince other scientists.

      Science is not a body of canonized knowledge. It's not "the collection of all ideas that you can convince scientists of." Science is a process that aims to develop certainty based on empirical evidence, regardless of whether you can convince a single other person.

      Correct right up to the final clause. That's a mythologized vision of science. In real-world science, convincing other scientists of the validity of what you did absolutely is a critical part of the scientific method.

      If you can't explain it to others, and explain why it's valid and what the evidence is in a way to convince somebody other than yourself, no, it is not science.

      Yes, there are plenty of crazies who think otherwise, but real science relies on work being vetted and understood by more than one set of eyes.

      --
      http://www.geoffreylandis.com
    3. Re:What is scientific consensus by nine-times · · Score: 2

      The final step: "critical exposure to scrutiny, peer review and assessment" In other words: convince other scientists.

      So I'm not sure I'm ready to accept that web page as a definitive authority. I can understand if you get annoyed at that and say it's bullshit, but the fact is, it's just a political body making a claim at what they think science is, and I'm more concerned with what science has claimed to be over the past few centuries, as well as a logical view of what it makes sense for science to be. If convincing others is the end-point then the rest of the process is vaguely irrelevant.

      I don't know if you'll immediately grasp the meat of this objection, but if the convictions of other people is a requirement for science, then it kind of undermines the hopes at developing certain/reliable knowledge. It's like, "Investigate. Come up with a hypothesis. Run tests. Collect data. Analyze your data. Come to a conclusion. Now all of that is irrelevant, because it doesn't matter whether your experiments are designed well or executed well, whether your analysis was correct. What matters is the political process of getting a bunch of self-involved hairless monkeys to form a consensus that you're correct." You may as well skip all that experimentation stuff and just figure out how to be a better salesman. At that rate, cult leaders are great scientists, because the ultimate test of your theory is just whether or not you can convince a large group of people.

      And maybe the Science Council knows this, and that's why their last step is "exposure to scrutiny" rather than "convince others". Exposure to scrutiny only implies that other people are able to pick apart the experiment and look for problems, but it doesn't require explicitly require that everyone is immediately convinced. I'd agree that in the overall larger scheme of science, part of the process is "making my experiment public, allowing other people to perform their own tests and build off my what I've learned." However, I just think it's really screwing with the idea of science to require that people are generally convinced.

      And it might even be worse if you say, "Oh no, not people in general, but only scientists," because it sets up "scientists" to be a special class of priests that are "the keepers of truth". Science should not judged based on who performs the experiment or who reads the paper.

  14. Simpler reason: no fact checking by slew · · Score: 2

    Fact checking and editing used to be the core of journalism.

    Now editorial staffing is pretty much non-existent in most publications. Even if it does exist, the disproportionate power of the "star" journalist has any rendered editorial oversight limp at best (e.g., Dan Rathers, Jayson Blair).

    Journalists used to cut their teeth with fact checking. Fact checkers were the checks-and-balances built into the historical journalism structure. Now with a publication paths that doesn't require them learning how to fact check (e.g., web publishing), budding journalists simultaneously are both inexperienced with fact checking and do not see any value in fact checking. Thus the facts that are reported suffer. That is the crux of the problem.

    We are probably simply reliving the days of yellow journalism (from the late 19th century). Some speculated the original outbreak had to do with circulation wars at the time. The more things change, the more they remain the same...

    Let's just hope a Pulitzer-Hearst war doesn't lead to a modern day Spanish-American War (if I can dabble in a little yellow journalism myself ;^)

  15. History shows scientists being part of the church by perpenso · · Score: 3, Informative

    Actually history shows scientists being part of the church for many centuries. Members of the clergy proposed and advanced heliocentrism, genetics, the big bang theory, the scientific method, etc. As another poster pointed out don't get confused by those who were persecuted mainly for political reasons, for mocking the pope. Also keep in mind that the fact that people within the church rejected various scientific discoveries at first is not something unique to religion. Many scientists are political in that they defend their turf, their field, their pet theories, their friends who have a stake in a competing theory. When many of the leading men of science rejected the Big Bang Theory they did so because it "smelled of creationism", the theory was put forward by a catholic priest at a catholic university, it didn't matter that this man was a world class physicist and astronomer trained at some of the most prestigious universities.

    At one time young PhD candidates were being told not to follow their interest and study string theory. That the consensus was against it and you will potentially damage your career.

    Men of science have their biases and politics, both men of science who are religious and men of science who are not religious.

  16. I hate that this is always said... by gerald.edward.butler · · Score: 2

    without education of course...

    I see this "Not Educated" meme all the time. Mostly by nitwits (not accusing you of being one BTW) who think because they are "Well Read/Literate" that means that their "Education" is complete and anyone who is not has "No Education". Nothing could be further from the truth. People who are illiterate are not "Uneducated" for the most part (especially in the past). They had more practical education. Most of the so-called modern, literate, educated populace would quickly starve to death if nearly everything they needed to survive weren't provided to them by seemingly less educated peers. The idea that somehow "Literate Education" is the only meaningful/useful educate is complete nonsense.

  17. Re:History shows scientists being part of the chur by penguinoid · · Score: 2

    Actually history shows scientists being part of the church for many centuries.

    History shows scientists being a subgroup of the people who are literate and have free time. In the past, that meant the clergy, rich people, and people sponsored by rich people. Now, everyone is literate and almost everyone has enough free time to do science if they so wished, and can even get jobs doing science. If your implication is that religion is what was good for science, pray tell what is the current correlation between members of the clergy and scientific advance, and how it compares to non-clergy?

    --
    Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways