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The Reason a Surface Phone Won't Fix Microsoft's Mobile Problem (windows10update.com)

Posted by samzenpus on from the looking-for-life dept.

Ammalgam writes: Microsoft's CMO recently admitted that Microsoft was behind in the mobile arena and needed time to build a competitive phone. In the Windows community however, some feel that the Windows Phone platform is out of time. On Windows10Update.com, the author discusses some of the reasons why a "Surface Phone" might not be enough to fundamentally change public perception about Microsoft mobile phones.

21 of 154 comments (clear)

  1. Huh? by BradleyUffner · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What is a "Surface Phone", and how is it different from a "Window 10 Phone", other than the name?

    1. Re:Huh? by squiggleslash · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Surface Phone::Windows 10 For Phones = Nexus Phone::Android

      Basically it's a phone from Microsoft, intended to show off its operating system as it imagines it should be implemented, rather than just one that runs a Microsoft Operating System.

      And yeah, I appreciate that Lumia phones are designed by a division of Microsoft, but I suspect the former Nokia division is still run to a certain extent at arm's length.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    2. Re:Huh? by AK+Marc · · Score: 2

      It's done like a regular phone, but running a W10 derivative. What MS needs to do is to design a media update to W10, XBOne, and Surface to auto-discover and cloud all devices in a house. Want to watch netflix on TV? Pull it up on your phone, tablet, or computer, and click "play netlfix on XBOne, and the XBOne will flip to netflix (if not already in use) and let that device be the remote for the TV. Want to game? Play XBOne games on the PC, so long as it's authorized. Use your phone as an XBOne controller. Make the entire ecosystem interchangeable and connected. Play PC games on the XBOne with the XBOne controller through the PC (using the XB controller as a PC controller, and the XBone as the display, not actually playing the game, the game runs on the PC with display to the XBOne or tablet or phone).

      The kind of thing that would really piss off the Slashdotters that don't want their devices to do things before they tell them to.

      I can think of a million things that could be done to integrate the phone/tablet/PC/console into a single logical device with every device an extension of that media cloud. MS has been preparing for, but avoiding it. It's time to just make every home device into a single device cluster.

      --
      Learn to love Alaska
    3. Re: Huh? by TheReaperD · · Score: 4, Informative

      Except that, unless Microsoft has made vast strides in x86 hardware with a hardware division we don't know about, current low power x86 chips have no business in a smartphone chassis. They are too large, consume too much power and generate too much heat. Even trying to keep them in a tablet format has been troublesome for Microsoft and they had to accept compromises to make it work. So an x86 smartphone is just unrealistic at this time. They've tried a few times and it never worked so they've been forced to work with a crappy ARM port of Windows that no previous generation software works with or anything current built around win32s (which is almost all Windows software). The only reason Windows is still a market force is because of their backwards-compatability model and resulting market lock-in. Without this compatibility, any "Windows" product is a non-starter. I think Microsoft knows this but, tries anyway because the smartphone market is so important to future revenue and they refuse to simplify cede this important market to Apple and Google. I think they are hoping to hang on by their fingernails in the market until it is viable to run an x86 chipset in a smartphone.

      --
      "Be particularly skeptical when presented with evidence confirming what you already believe." -
    4. Re: Huh? by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      I think they are hoping to hang on by their fingernails in the market until it is viable to run an x86 chipset in a smartphone.

      The thing that's ultra-super-hilarious is that Linux has actually demonstrated the ability to do the equivalent and nobody wants it. You used to be able to install Linux on the same machines that ran WinCE, e.g. I had it on an iPaq H2215 which had a 400MHz PXA chip. This was when Intel owned an ARM design (XScale) and ironically, it would XScale up, but it wouldn't XScale down. It was the fastest ARM at the time, but they couldn't get the same kind of low power out of it that other licensors had managed.

      Linux on the iPaq was functionally equivalent to Linux on anything else, and even ran X. You could have either a Qt-based desktop or a GTK-based one and if your device had enough resources you could compile and run full-fledged applications on it. Even the Linux community avoided it in droves. Nobody wants a full desktop OS on their phone.

      When the phone is capable of being as powerful as the desktop, maybe it will make sense. Until then, it doesn't, and no amount of wishing will make it so.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  2. Oh good. by MachineShedFred · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The only reason that the Surface tablets are getting any traction at all, is because they can run native x64 Windows apps. When they tried an ARM version, it failed so badly that Microsoft ended up writing off almost a billion dollars of inventory that nobody would buy, even at loss-leader pricing.

    Almost nobody* wants a phone that can run x64 Windows apps, so the same trick is unlikely to work in that space.

    * I said almost nobody, because immediately below this comment will be a reply from some corner case or another where someone will want that, but they will be a very small exception to my statement. The massive majority of the market will not want such a product, and will happily continue buying Android or iOS for the foreseeable future.

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    1. Re: Oh good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      I want it

    2. Re:Oh good. by jetkust · · Score: 2

      I've been trying to run notepad on my phone for years.

    3. Re:Oh good. by BitZtream · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I know I'm being an example of what you pointed out as the follow up comment ... but ... bear with me anyway, please.

      My wife is the perfect example of someone who would want a Surface Phone (excepted she'd really want an OSXiOS phone since she's a mac person). She RARELY uses her MBA, but when she does its because a phone just isn't the right input/display device, its pretty much never due to lack of CPU power.

      If should could simply take that phone, and plug it in with Thunderbolt and it instantly becomes a very low powered but fully featured laptop ... with say 256GB of storage? She'd never own another laptop.

      99% of the time, the phone is perfect. The other 1% doesn't require a desktop PC, it requires a big display and a real keyboard/mouse. Having all her data, always being connected, and only needing essentially a KVM to turn it into a practical 'desktop pc'? Awesome-sauce.

      I want the exact same thing, but I require more CPU power so its not going to work for me for a few more years, but I do dev work on her MBA on occasion and its really not that bad for most things if you can keep your working set small enough. You aren't going to want to run freebsd's 'make world' on an MBA as a regular thing, but rebuilding init or sshd is certainly tolerable.

      Again, I may be a corner case, but I don't think she is. She's a vet, so being able to do almost everything on her phone (with a different UI than full desktop mode!, same apps) and then just plugging in a keyboard or display for the rest? Wherever she is because her phone is ALWAYS with her ...

      I think that would be the death of 'PCs' much like cell phones killed off the low end film and digital camera market entirely.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    4. Re:Oh good. by dreamchaser · · Score: 2

      I don't need a phone that can run x64 apps, but I wouldn't mind it if the performance and battery life was acceptable. I have a Surface 3 tablet. I run Windows 10 and Ubuntu on it. It is very nice hardware. If they can do the same with phones I might give it a shot, although I'll admit I have enough invested in Android apps that I might hedge my bets.

    5. Re:Oh good. by ITRambo · · Score: 2

      I would mod you up but you said "awesome sauce". That and "cool beans" do not belong in any person's vocabulary. Otherwise, you show great wisdom.

    6. Re:Oh good. by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      Almost nobody* wants a phone that can run x64 Windows apps, so the same trick is unlikely to work in that space.

      Why? And before you answer that have a think about the direction of Windows 10 or the idea of Continuum.

      You have a device that is a phone. It has native apps to do phoneish things. Yet the underlying system is x86. Why should you care? Most people don't know what x86 or ARM is. The Surface RT didn't fail because it was ARM the Surface RT failed because it was useless, and by useless I mean there was nothing that actually ran on it all the while it was sold as a Windows computer.

      You are now being presented with the opposite. A device which is a phone which can do it's phonish things out of the box just like any other phone, but then when plugged into a dock or a screen / keyboard the "continuum" part comes into play effectively turning your device into a full computer able to run normal x86 software.

      Sign me up.

      Just not to version 1.

      It will be a bumpy ride for sure but I for one am looking forward to a world or phones and docking stations. Carry my entire PC in my pocket and have it assume the form factor and universally work with apps depending on which input / output device it's connected to? Yes please!

  3. Developers Developers Developers Developers by StandardCell · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You hit the nail on the head - it's all about the app ecosystem. What killer Windows phone apps ever made any waves? None. Even BlackBerry got the message about Android apps though far too late to save them. If the developers aren't there, the apps won't be there and the customers won't use your platform.

    1. Re:Developers Developers Developers Developers by Njorthbiatr · · Score: 2

      WPF and XAML are actually pretty damn awesome. The fact you don't know what they are lends me to believe you've never actually tried any of it.

  4. Move past local apps by LocoBurger · · Score: 2

    On topic with the last post on the front page, I think Microsoft's best move is to push in the same direction as Mozilla: web apps that are as good as native apps. Then your platform isn't the important thing.

    Then why choose Windows (on your phone)? I think corporate workers would love for their work PC to just be the phone in their pocket. It should be x86-64 and run full-blown desktop application when a monitor, pointer and keyboard are attached. The latest Windows 10 Mobile is close, but it can't run any old x86 code. If my work PC was a Windows phone, I'd definitely find it easier to move in that direction in my personal life.

    Web apps for the future, the occasional local app, and make the whole history of Windows on x86 a non-replicable asset for your platform.

  5. No, but the "XBox Phone" will by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 2

    At a corporate level, the ability for IT admins to manage everything from AD is killer. For consumers, I suspect Microsoft will finally figure out how to extend XBox games to phones, build some killer ecosystem around major titles like Halo and Minecraft, and go to the bank.

  6. Like that scene from The Princess Bride... by Stormwatch · · Score: 3, Funny

    "Offer me apps."
    "Yes!"
    "Accessories, too, promise me that."
    "All that I have and more. Please..."
    "Offer me everything I ask for."
    "Anything you want..."

    *stab*

    "I want MeeGo back, you son of a bitch!"

    --
    Circumcision is child abuse.
  7. BTW, what CHEAP options are there for x64 Tablets? by yooy · · Score: 2

    I never really had the use for an tablet and hence don't own one, except a old B&W NOOK ebook ready with Android.

    Now, what I would really like is to use

    1. [Preferably] Ubuntu on a tablet to run wine and use RosettaStone for language learning

    2. Use Windows to run Rosetta Stone.

    This may be an option in the future: https://www.codeweavers.com/po...

    But currently, what are the options for CHEAP x64 tablets?

    I wish I could buy the cheap AMAZON Fire but RosettaStone won't run on it. The Web Version (Android/iOS) does not compare to the computer version.
    Any suggestions highly appreciated. I am willing to root the device.

  8. Microsoft could TAKE OVER the smartphone market.. by realmolo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    All they need are these features:

    A phone that can be fully-managed with Group Policy/Active Directory

    A phone that has a fully-functional Outlook client, with ALL the features of desktop Outlook that are practical to cram into a phone

    That's IT. Most businesses would jump at the chance for those. Mobile security is a big issue, and there *still* isn't a truly good Exchange client for any phone (though some are close).

    The fact that MS hasn't realized this stuff is mystifying. What are they thinking?

  9. Re:Microsoft could TAKE OVER the smartphone market by SeaFox · · Score: 2

    All they need are these features:

    A phone that can be fully-managed with Group Policy/Active Directory

    A phone that has a fully-functional Outlook client, with ALL the features of desktop Outlook that are practical to cram into a phone

    That's IT. Most businesses would jump at the chance for those. Mobile security is a big issue, and there *still* isn't a truly good Exchange client for any phone (though some are close).

    The fact that MS hasn't realized this stuff is mystifying. What are they thinking?

    There's a lot more to the "smartphone market" than business features. I notice nothing on your list that would make the average consumer excited.
    Once upon a time BlackBerry ruled business smartphones. Why did that end? Because people wanted to be able to use their non-work smartphone as their work phone. So the phone that was king for consumers (the iPhone) started to displace the Blackberry.

    If Microsoft wants to take over the smartphone market, they first have to make a dent in the hearts of the non-business market.

  10. Re:Microsoft could TAKE OVER the smartphone market by loopkin · · Score: 2

    What you're describing is a Lumia with Windows 10 for phones, managed by Intune.

    And no, it's not what businesses want. Intune/SCCM is full of proprietary stuff, that doesn't stick to the diversity of a modern information system.