TPP Signing Ceremony To Take Place In February (freezenet.ca)

Dangerous_Minds writes: New Zealand officials are hoping that the TPP signing ceremony is to take place in February in Auckland, New Zealand. According to the New Zealand Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade, it is expected that all 12 countries are going to sign the controversial Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP). Those 12 countries are Australia, Brunei, Canada, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore, the U.S., and Vietnam. Note: signing doesn't necessarily make the agreement law, but it is one critical step closer to ratification.

Comments

Well there Liberal supporters?

[Mashiki]

You believed ol' Justin Trudeau when he said he wouldn't support it, then flipflopped and said he would, then he wouldn't. Thanks for enabling this shit, if it get's signed all we can do is hope that the SCC tells them to shove it.

Re:Well there Liberal supporters?

[Anonymous Coward]

Crybaby.

Re:Well there Liberal supporters?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah because it sure would have helped make sure it didn't get signed if the Conservative passed again.

Re:Well there Liberal supporters?

[Anonymous Coward]

Elections are a magic show. They don't really matter. Even in countries like Australia where they don't have first past the post, they get idiots like Abbot in. NZ has MMP and they still get morons like John Key. Trudeau is kinda a douche, but Harper was only voted out cause he's been there forever!

It's a game people. Look at the average voter. The people who run elections know it's all about a good show and letting people pretend they have options when you really vote for one of the 2 to 6 pre-selected candidates. Their policies are not really that different. Obama still assassinates people with predator drones and calls for regime change. It never changes.

Re:Well there Liberal supporters?

[h33t l4x0r]

Yes, because the world turns on the Canadian PM backing things. Hoohoohaha

Re:Well there Liberal supporters?

[Anonymous Coward]

"get's"? Get is? Get was? Something belongs to the get?

Re:Well there Liberal supporters?

[Mashiki]

Yes, because the world turns on the Canadian PM backing things. Hoohoohaha

Considering that Canada was one of the primary TPP groups in this besides the US, I suppose it is.

Re: Well there Liberal supporters?

[drsmithy]

Abbott was a good politician.

Indeed.

But he was a deplorable PM and Minister of [whatever]. A coward, a bully and a thug.

Re:Well there Liberal supporters?

[wardrich86]

Don't blame me, I voted NDP. Trudeau has always been pro-TPP but made some shit claims that "it's good, but needs to be revised"

Or maybe I'm mistaking that with C51?

Re:Well there Liberal supporters?

[Anonymous Coward]

He said that for C-51, for sure. Not that I believed him for a second. Also didn't vote Liberal. I hope they turn out better than Harper but hope may fade over time..

Re:Well there Liberal supporters?

[davester666]

yeah, he didn't want to be labelled "soft on terrorists" by Harper, so he went along with C51.

I'm pretty sure he did say he wasn't going to sign the TPP, but I'm sure it's like the last Liberal gov't with their Red Book "Oh, now that we're in power, we found out we can't do what we promised."

Re:Well there Liberal supporters?

[Anonymous Coward]

besides the US

exactly

Re:Well there Liberal supporters?

[Anonymous Coward]

You'll do what the US tells you to do and you'll shut the fuck up. I hope that's perfectly clear.

Re:Well there Liberal supporters?

[Anonymous Coward]

People at the top may LOOK like morons and idiots, but they ARE NOT! Do not be fooled, they know full well what they are doing. We do not, and should not, and must not, and ought not, and need not understand the way the power operates, but they certainly do.

Still, Canadian and Australian legislatures are bi-cameral. Thus, slower, with more inertia, which makes making it difficult to produce big damage and quickly.

New Zelanad has a unicameral parliament, under the reign of the sitting PM. Anything goes. By the lunchtime.

Another victory for corporate corruption

[Anonymous Coward]

These American imposed laws that extend the power of corporations are making a total mockery of democracy in the countries that haven't yet become US style corporate dictatorships.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[FlyHelicopters]

These American imposed laws that extend the power of corporations are making a total mockery of democracy in the countries that haven't yet become US style corporate dictatorships.

And people wonder why I want an armed population...

I don't trust government. It can do good, I don't think we could live without any government (that would be equally silly), but I don't trust them either.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[SuricouRaven]

I don't trust the armed population either. Rebellions ending in a more stable, prosperous and free country have happened - but they are the exception, not the norm.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[FlyHelicopters]

Pick your poison, you have to put your faith in something, or you'll end up standing for nothing...

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[Z00L00K]

Even more important - don't sign anything that's secret to the public. This means that there can't be any public scrutiny of the implications that such an agreement results in.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[Darinbob]

Zealous gun owners filled with the fervor that they are never wrong?

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have reached the point where arms are necessary, you haven't been doing your duty. Stuff like this doesn't just pop up overnight.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[dbIII]

I'll raise that to zealous gun owners led by a traitor that sold weapons to the Islamic terrorists Hezbolla (and Iran as well):

http://nraontherecord.org/oliver-north/

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[Anonymous Coward]

The armed population thing is a joke.

If you put your armed american population on one side and your US military forced on the other side, which one wins?

If second amendment's spirit was followed, the real life USA would resemble grand theft auto much more closely.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm no Hizballah supporter, but you should recall they have carried out a lot less terror per capita (is that a measure?) than the US. Most of their armed activities have been directed at:

1. Getting the US out of Lebanon (they blew up a large military base in the early 1980s IIRC)
2. Getting Israel out of South Lebanon
3. Countering fundamentalist Sunni armed groups (A-Nusra, maybe ISIS) in Syria - which is also aiding the Ba'ath regime there

They have had some additional activity, including in attacks constituting terrorism, but your label reflects a certain bias, I would say.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[dbIII]

Yes, but North's treason was selling weapons to them less than a year after they had killed over a hundred US marines.
It's about aiding an enemy and not abated by what a former enemy is doing decades later.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[drinkypoo]

I don't trust the armed population either. Rebellions ending in a more stable, prosperous and free country have happened - but they are the exception, not the norm.

Paradigm shifts have occurred without rebellions, but they are the exception, not the norm.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[sociocapitalist]

These American imposed laws that extend the power of corporations are making a total mockery of democracy in the countries that haven't yet become US style corporate dictatorships.

No.

The people of those countries are allowing it to happen by not making themselves heard by their governments.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[Goose In Orbit]

The only people Governments listen to are lobbyists with deep deep pockets...

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[sociocapitalist]

The only people Governments listen to are lobbyists with deep deep pockets...

No lobbying organization has deeper pockets than the populace of the country, together.

The problem is that the population just does not care enough to bother.

Re: Another victory for corporate corruption

[Anonymous Coward]

After Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq, my money is not on the US Military.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[Anonymous Coward]

No lobbying organization has deeper pockets than the populace of the country, together.

The problem is that the population just does not care enough to bother.

You can try and cater to the 60% of wealth that the bottom 99% has by somehow trying to please a completely schizophrenic, unfocused group of people, or you can target the other 40% of wealth concentrated in the top 1%, who is a much more focused group (F the poor and give us more money). The choice for politicians is obvious.

Re: Another victory for corporate corruption

[ArmoredDragon]

The US military, or at least a sizable number of them, would likely have sympathy for a rebellion against tyranny.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[penguinoid]

Rebellions ending in a more stable, prosperous and free country have happened - but they are the exception, not the norm.

Worked well enough for that English colony in the Americas.

But what is more important is not actually using the weapons, but that the threat of their use suffice to keep one safe -- the same reason most gun owners, or nuclear weapons owners, give for having them in the first place.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[penguinoid]

If you put your armed american population on one side and your US military forced on the other side, which one wins?

Then both the American population and the US military win, and the politicians lose.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[MrKaos]

And people wonder why I want an armed population...

I don't trust government. It can do good, I don't think we could live without any government (that would be equally silly), but I don't trust them either.

Franklin warned that the American constituion would not stop it from falling into despotism, what he could not possibly have realised that the nation could have extended it's influence so far into so many nations. I think he would weep at what should have been egalitarian over empire, as empires eventually fail. The corruption of the people that he feared was acheived over time by whittling away at education, media freedom, corporation law, campaign funding laws and so many other things because none of our laws protect the populous from the interests of capital.

Whilst the TPP is mainly sponsored by American Corporations who stand to benefit from it's passage, the population will undergo the same plundering of the middle class that other populations will. Don't think you can fight the state with violence though, you will never win. You'd have that right so you can protect your life long enough to enact political change with a pen.

This is what the founders of modern democracies fought against, the wholesale conversion of public rights into capital.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[Anonymous Coward]

As a " 'merican" I am utterly opposed to this law and I have called my Oklahoma public officials several times to voice my opposition. I honestly haven't checked on their votes/stances on the issue, but that's 'cause I have little in common with them on most other issues, and I don't want to remind myself of the dreck they peddle.

While I agree with you that the U.S.A. probably had the people who masterminded this pile of plutocratic b.s., some of those other countries have done a damn good job of screwing their own citizens on their own terms as well.

Instead of signing ceremony, it should be a mock execution, where they burn the citizenry of the respective countries in effigy. That's what the people who show up to support that agreement are doing. I would rather watch a Miss Universe pageant than that horse and pony show. All the same b.s. glitter, but you know with the beauty pageant that it really is just skin deep and there is no sinister signing away of people rights' underneath it all.

captcha:bunched

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[Anonymous Coward]

Guerrilla warfare overwhelmingly favors the resistance over the occupation. You don't have to beat the occupational force, you simply have to make it to politically costly to continue the occupation.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[Anonymous Coward]

And that's why the rate of gun violence in America is ~so low~ compared to the rest of the developed world...

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[BenBoy]

These American imposed laws that extend the power of corporations

Well, we want share what we have ...

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[FlyHelicopters]

Don't think you can fight the state with violence though, you will never win.

So you don't think the American Revolution can happen again?

You don't think there have been any revolts in the last 50 years that have lead to an overthrow of the existing government?

Re: Another victory for corporate corruption

[gwolf]

Not only that, they would likely have sympathy for replacement of tyranny with worse tyranny. Look at some examples in the Far East, in South America, Central America, Africa, Middle East, Caribbean... We have no shortage of them!

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[gwolf]

More revolutions have happened in the last 50 years with non-violent society uprisings or boycotts than with arms. See how many Middle-East and African countries overthrew their government violently, just to become closed dictatorships. On the other hand, see how many military rulers all over the world have fallen and given way to democratic regimes due to the organized action of society.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[FlyHelicopters]

Sure, and how many non-violent uprisings have been put down violently?

You can't just take the successes and ignore the failures.

Ask yourself another question. WHY is there a civil war in Syria? What started it?

Answer: There were protests against the government, largely non-violent. The government started to use force and started shooting protesters. That is when they responded with violence.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh yeah,

NZ is just a socialist dictatorship, now which is worse, your illusion, or americas comfortable acceptance of what it is with out excuses? As a NZer living in the US, the cost of living is what I call realistic, the income from ONE average tech job buys a house and affords a reasonable level of living for a family of 3, my wife has early MS and may never be-able to hold down a full time job, so rather than put everyone through the stress of her working to pay for daycare she is a stay at home mum/mom. This we could never do in NZ, maybe barely with TWO higher end tech job incomes, but NZ govt failed at the tech game and the economy has missed the boat because DAIRY FARMING IS IT. Not anymore now that the a$$ has fallen out of China and they aint buying your milk anymore.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[evilRhino]

I hate to mention it, but the corporations don't really care how many guns you have. They own all the infrastructure that most Americans are dependent on from the food in their pantries, to the bullets in their guns.

Re: Another victory for corporate corruption

[dryeo]

You really think that the military would have sympathy for a leftist socialist rebellion? Because that will be how it will be spun and probably the reality as the rightist at heart have always been pro-government. Just have to look at the history of arms being used against the government, mostly labor movements in the 19th century and the military (often private) won every time.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[spire3661]

I am a person who exists whether the government does or not. The US government could dissolve tomorrow, and we would still be here. Who would be right then?

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[Bartles]

What makes you think our Military would be loyal to the Federal Government or a President like Obama? More now than ever, our armed population IS the US military, ideologically and politically,

Re: Another victory for corporate corruption

[KeensMustard]

That sympathy will evaporate quickly if you shoot at them.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you should tell that to the Taliban--maybe they'll
turn in their AK-47's and fall on their knees in shock
and awe.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[KeensMustard]

And people wonder why I want an armed population...

Yes, and this is why.

If having an armed population is meant to prevent abuses (like this one), and abuses like this one keep happening, you have to conclude that the strategy is not working. But gun-o-philes don't seem to be able to see what's directly in front of them.

The gun-o-philes are complicit in tyranny. Their guns are ineffective against tyranny. But they can't accept that. So they minimise the tyranny constantly and resist/downplay/criticise the efforts of the rest of the populace to halt the slide toward tyranny by other means. By clinging to an idea that doesn't work, they contribute to the outcome they claim so fervently to be against.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[KeensMustard]

But what is more important is not actually using the weapons, but that the threat of their use suffice to keep one safe -- the same reason most gun owners, or nuclear weapons owners, give for having them in the first place.

in the US it's illegal to use these weapons against agents of the government. It's just as illegal there as it is in the rest of the world. Therefore the threat posed by these weapons toward the rule of the government is completely empty, and the government, and everybody else, knows this. There remains a small portion of the populace, who, with childlike imagination, like to pretend otherwise.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[TangoMargarine]

Sounds like the mantra those at the top of power structures repeat to themselves every night before bed to convince themselves they are good people. "If the people really didn't want to get screwed over, they'd be able to stop me."

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[rockout]

You could be dead tomorrow, and the US government will still be here. Who's right now?

Re: Another victory for corporate corruption

[ArylAkamov]

I find it difficult not to consider the modern leftist more pro-government than the right.

Who wants welfare?
Who wants free shit?
Who wants hate speech laws?
Who wants to repeal the first amendment?
Who wants to tell everybody else "You can't own that"?
Who wants to fine you for "mis gendering" somebody?

They are both shitheads, not defending the pitiful right, but the modern leftist is extremely authoritarian. They are too weak to do anything themselves (Aside from make harassing phone calls in an attempt to get you fired) so they relay on our government to enforce their perfect utopia.

Re: Another victory for corporate corruption

[rockout]

The US military, or at least a sizable number of them, would likely have sympathy for a rebellion against tyranny.

You have no idea what you're talking about, and obviously never served in the US military. As a former member, allow me to inform you: the vast majority of military officers AND enlisted are very pro-law-and-order, and don't take their oath to carry out orders lightly. You're living in the same delirious world as those idiots in Oregon - the "once the rebellion starts, the masses will join us!" fantasy.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[rockout]

How do you figure? Any armed rebellion would be swiftly crushed, thus cementing the politicians' hold on power.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[rockout]

I actually served in the military, unlike you, so I'll take a stab at this one: because that's the oath that every volunteer takes when they enter. Despite what you think about how they vote, our military is, in fact, for the most part very professional and officers and enlisted alike take their jobs very seriously, including that whole thing about following orders, the chain of command, and that chain ending with the president.

Your fantasy about the military opposing a Democratic president is a product of a mind twisted by right-wing blogs and fed its own opinions in an endless echo chamber. The real military is quite different, I assure you.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[rockout]

Syria's military is a joke compared to that of the USA, and the rebels still can't win their rebellion. Just because some third-world shithole rebellion results in a change in government, you think that's applicable here? "It's not the same ballpark, it's not the same league, it's not even the same fuckin' sport."

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[david_thornley]

Weapons are useless against the government. Start a firefight and you will lose, although not necessarily immediately. Tell your Senators that you want them to vote against the TPP.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[TangoMargarine]

One would hope that if the President ordered our military to, for example, start exterminating all the brown people in the country, there would be some hesitation.

There's always a line somewhere.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[david_thornley]

The US Military wins, and it's not even any shred of approximation to something that could loosely describe as close.

Re: Another victory for corporate corruption

[dryeo]

Who wants welfare?

Large companies such as Walmart so they can pay out lower wages.

Who wants free shit?

Right wing farmers as well as most large businesses

Who wants hate speech laws?

Point, as the left remembers how hate speech has been used to promote violence

Who wants to repeal the first amendment?

Both wings though it is usually the right that takes it to the extreme of executing people for speech.

Who wants to tell everybody else "You can't own that"?

The right has filled the prisons with people convicted of owning stuff

Who wants to fine you for "mis gendering" somebody?

Good point as the right would rather throw people in jail based on their perceived gender rather then a simple fine.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[FlyHelicopters]

The rabble that was the American Army in 1776 stood up to the most powerful military in the world, and won...

Vietnam vs. US Military

Afghanistan vs. USSR Military

What was your point again?

---

Tanks and bombers are very effective against nations and enemy armies, they are far less effective against civilians.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[FlyHelicopters]

Weapons are useless against the government.

Almost every government in the history of the world would like to have a word with you...

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[Bartles]

Yes they are very professional. That's why if they were ordered by a President to start shooting Americans, I would hope most would disobey that order. And while I have not served, I do work in the defense industry and know many that have. It should also be noted that I did not say Democratic President, but instead used Obama as an example. He treats the people serving in the armed forces like complete shit, and they deserve better.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[Bartles]

"I, (rockout), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

They are sworn to support and defend the Constitution without exception, and they have a duty to disobey an unlawful order whether it comes from the President or the chain of command. So yes, I depend on their professionalism when SHTF.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[penguinoid]

Because, odds are the soldiers would decide to shoot the politicians that asked them to illegally attack the population, rather than shoot their own friends and family.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering that the entire US Military makes up less than 1% of the entire US population when you include all MOS combined, both combat and support and you take into account that the bulk of military support is from the civilian sector.

Then you include the fact that the civilian weaponry isn't too far removed in power from the military weaponry until you look at tanks and missiles and tanks are nothing without support and can actually be taken out with less than $50 in homemade explosives which is actually enough to cut an armored tank in half and missiles aren't any different in that regard.

The fact of the matter is, if even 5% of the united states population rose up and faced the US military, the military would actually be decimated unless the rest of the civilian population rose up to support and protect them. This isn't even taking into account the number of military that would defect before they fought their own people.

Sorry, but you have too much faith in the United States Military compared to the United States populace. Just running the numbers, it would take a virtual act of god to have the United States military to defeat the populace should they collectively rise up against them.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[KeensMustard]

Because, odds are the soldiers would decide to shoot the politicians that asked them to illegally attack the population, rather than shoot their own friends and family.

Depends who is shooting at them. If you shoot at them and wound or kill any of their buddies they will have no compunction in putting a bullet through your head.

I'd certainly agree that in the event of an uprising, encouraging the sympathy of the US military is vital to success. With this in mind, one of the first things you should do is identify the people with a tendency to wave their guns around and talk about how they are going to use them in the revolution (i.e. take potshots at the US military). Once you've identified these people, relieve them of their weapons before the revolution starts. If you don't do this, you have no chance of success.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[fustakrakich]

The problem is that the population just does not care enough to bother.

Hey, The lights are on, the toilet flushes, the garbage is picked up. Thanks Obama!

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[fustakrakich]

Um, even the American "revolution" was a bit of a proxy war. The relationship with France runs pretty deep. All these wars involve outside influence, most of it over business interests and disputes. Underneath it all is an argument over the price.

TPP is just a formality, a consolidation of established parties, kind of a "peace" treaty amongst the five families.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[fustakrakich]

In all those cases, the opposition was heavily armed and financed and sometimes manned by outsiders.

I have to ask, what is your point?

And unless the TPP bumps into similar cost/benefit ratios, it will be smooth sailing to passage.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[KGIII]

There are a few people on this planet that I truly hate. North is one of them. Two of my close friends died in the embassy attack, Marines I'd gone through boot. I do not accept, "following orders."

That said, he is not a traitor. That might be difficult for you to comprehend but not every dirt-bag is a traitor. Even North gets innocence until proven guilty.

Now, I'd *like* him to be a traitor but that requires a conviction. It is also worth noting that the ACLU, yes that same group, helped get his convictions vacated. I may not like North but I do believe in Due Process. Also, it might be worth noting, that I'm pretty sure he has an honorable discharge. I could check Wikipedia but I'm kind of lazy. So, by those standards and by our standards, he's still a Marine.

I hate to say it, oh I hate it, but North is not only not a traitor but his convictions were vacated - with the help of the ACLU. It's quite a conundrum. See, I donate, quite a bit actually, to the ACLU. But that's because I believe in due process.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[KGIII]

I do not know the person you're responding to but, well, I spent a total of eight years enlisted. We had this conversation often enough, it gets boring and you'll talk about all sorts of shit. I can only say that I don't recall anyone ever indicating that they'd obey an unlawful order to attack civilians, armed or not. Don't get me wrong, if you shot at us then we'd have killed you. That's simply self-preservation. However, I think the vast majority of us would have felt obligated to disobey a direct order given to harm a civilian if such order were unlawfully given. There's quite a bit of leeway and I'll let you figure out for yourself where those lines might be drawn. Suffice to say, you're probably going to get the outright support of many and have a number of others who will simply refuse to participate.

Contrary to popular thought, we are not automatons. We can (and do) think for ourselves. There's a really good chance that an order to shoot civilians is unlawful. On top of that, I don't know if the person you're replying to has seen combat but I can tell you - you sure as shit aren't fighting for mom, apple pie, or the flag. You're fighting for your buddy next to you. So, draw whatever conclusions you might and make any assumptions you might but that's the gist of it as I know it and experienced it.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[KGIII]

I am not, of course, advocating armed insurrection at this point in time. I do reserve the right to change my mind, however.

That said, and it's sad that it needed to be said, how is it that you think your current government came to be? You are ruled by consent (and the fact that many people believe as you posted). I'd not recommend escalating things to the point of an armed insurrection but, if need be, I do have a few handy ideas as to how we can express our displeasure without the use of violence.

I've seen lots of violence. I've traveled in places where that's the norm. I've even been unfortunate enough to be in combat. I have a steep dislike for violence but I am aware that it serves a purpose and may be needed from time to time. It's like duck/duct tape. Most don't use it for the right reasons and half the idiots who do use it apply way more of it than is necessary.

But, again, I don't normally disagree with your posts - I do strongly disagree that weapons are useless against a government. Specifically firearms. An armed insurrection, a guerrilla force, or freedom fighters - they hold out and do surprisingly well when they're properly motivated. Do you recall the foray into Iraq? Yeah, those IEDs? Those many, many deaths? The fact that the violence was never properly quelled and that was *with* the citizenry supporting (for the most part) the US should be a good indicator.

That and, well, some of us own a whole ton of supplies and are actually fairly well trained - courtesy of the government themselves. And, of course, depending on the reason - a fairly sizable portion of the enlisted folks will not obey unlawful orders to harm their own civilians - whose rights they took an oath to protect. That doesn't mean a random group of folks can run out and go shooting government officials and expect the military to support them. Not at all. It does mean that if there were a violation of our constitutional protections so egregious that the citizens took up arms and the government moved to stop them by force, the government might not get the enthusiastic force they expecting.

I'd like to think it won't get that far.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[fustakrakich]

Ho ho! You think weapons are the issue... Ya hopin' the Banque Chaabi du Maroc will like, just hand you a key to the vault? Otherwise you're gonna have to sell lots of damn good, errr, 'whiskey', yeah, that's it..

Gimme back my bullets...

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[KGIII]

I'm inclined to believe that, properly motivated, we could force the government to do as they should. I'd suspect we don't even need to be violent to do it. We just have to be credibly violent, fairly uniform, and well organized. I do not know what it will take to reach that point. I'd rather we never get to that point.

Here's a fun one... I love my country (even if I hate some of the things it does). Yet, I'm quite capable of leaving and taking a bunch of my friends and family with me. Even if there's a huge and sudden crackdown - I've got means, at least to get beyond the immediate border. I could even be quite comfortable, in perpetuity, elsewhere.

So, if it ever hits the point where there's an armed insurrection - do I do the cowardly thing or do I stay and fight for my country? (Note: country != government.) Sadly, I'd probably do the latter. I'd probably risk everything and fight with my fellow citizens. This is, of course, assuming my fellow citizens are rebelling for just cause.

However, just for you:

Everyone has a GPS. Go get your GPS, set the destination to 1600 Penn. Ave, D.C. and do some math. Plan to arrive there at exactly 12:00 noon, on a Friday. Drive and get as close as you absolutely can to that destination - so that your timed arrival will be at the exact right time. When you can get no closer, turn off your vehicle and lock the doors. Get 1,000,000 vehicle owners to do it with you. Each and every one, try to arrive at that one spot and at that one exact time. Do not exit your vehicle, do not threaten the police, turn off the ignition, lock the doors, and - if you must, walk away.

Congratulations, instead of a million man march, you've got a million man drive in. It will be weeks for them to clear it out. You now have their attention. Everyone will be coming in from all sides of D.C. A million cars puts, rough math, about a 200 mile circle around the capital. Occupy both lanes when traffic stops. Just park, turn off the ignition, and lock the doors. Do not exit the vehicle of your own free will. If they physically force you to move, do not resist or - if you want, handcuff yourself to the steering wheel. So long as you were cuffed beforehand, you are not resisting arrest. Be peaceful, be polite, be respectful of the law. It's not against the law to go to 1600 Penn. Ave with a few of your friends.

There's something like a car for almost every person in the country. That's only 1:300 of 'em. They'll be WEEKS getting that cleaned up. I'd suggest that you have a concise and articulate purpose for doing so. I'd suggest you have only a few people who speak to the media. I'd suggest you have a few specific representatives. I'd suggest consulting a lawyer before doing so.

There you go. You should enjoy that idea. ;-) I have other ideas but that's a good start. I'd need a really, really good reason to join you. I'm not sure that the TPP is a strong enough reason for me to join you - as much as I dislike it. The Patriot Act, Snowden leaks, or the war in the Middle East might have been causes I'd join but you (generic you) let those slide so I'm guessing the average citizen doesn't give a shit about this either.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[fustakrakich]

Well, I think you oughta do it on Thanksgiving Day... You gotta sing loud...

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[david_thornley]

It seems likely to me that, if the government pisses enough people off to cause a rebellion that has any chance of success, there will be enough pissed-off people to overthrow the government via the ballot box, or exert enough pressure on elected officials to change things. The current government was created by a peaceful convention that came into effect by a ratification of enough states. The previous government, under the Articles of Confederation, was able to come into being because many US militiamen had good weapons and were surprisingly effective, because the rebels got good military training, and because we got French support. Since then, the difference between militia and regular has widened considerably, and civilians can no longer get modern military weapons.

Re: Another victory for corporate corruption

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, most military folks (at least the boomer ones) still take our oaths very seriously, which is one of the reasons there is Oath Keepers and there will be significant civil disobedience if confiscation or universal registration is attempted.
Interestingly, this is in stark contrast to those 'federal office holders' who have taken the same oath with no intent to keep it.
Unfortunately there is no will to hold them accountable for their malfeasance.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[dbIII]

I may not like North but I do believe in Due Process

The pardon blew due process right out of the water as if at Royal command.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[dbIII]

Yes you are entirely correct that the process was halted before he could be found guilty of treason but I still have an opinion and can still accuse.
Even if he really was following orders to sell weapons to two declared enemy groups, one with very recent blood on it's hands, IMHO it's a situation of putting "King" before country and still very much treason while being very much against what the US or any country that values freedom is supposed to be.

Maybe next time I should state outright that it's only my opinion and that he was pardoned before he could legally be declared a traitor or found to be innocent.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[KGIII]

I don't think he got a pardon, did he? I could have sworn the conviction was vacated. He also got some immunity by testifying in front of congress. I don't recall him getting a pardon?

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[KGIII]

Even though we may not have the weapons that the military has, we will soon after an outbreak. I, too, would like to think it will never get that far but I've read/watched too much history to be so certain of that to the point where I'd say they're useless. As an aside, I own not one but two firearms that are capable of fully automatic function. They're pricey but a whole bunch of fun. I'd really hate to have to use one to defend myself - I'd hate to harm anyone.

Now if I could get over this damned stomach bug, I'd be much happier.

Re: Another victory for corporate corruption

[ArmoredDragon]

You have no idea what you're talking about, and obviously never served in the US military

I did actually, US Army. MOS was 19-D, Armored Reconnaissance, also called Cavalry Scout. The classic title for it (in its early early days) is a Dragoon. Notice my nickname per chance?

As a former member, allow me to inform you: the vast majority of military officers AND enlisted are very pro-law-and-order, and don't take their oath to carry out orders lightly.

It's one thing when you're talking about average hooligans being unruly. Yes, completely agree in that respect. However I really don't think things would stay the same if there were legitimate grievances with the US government. There are, for example, such things as unlawful orders, and it is your duty as a soldier to disobey them.

Re: Another victory for corporate corruption

[ArmoredDragon]

You really think that the military would have sympathy for a leftist socialist rebellion?

Not likely, no.

Consider however, cases of popular rebellion. The US already has two major examples of high ranking officers defecting to join rebellions. In fact, George Washington himself was a member of the British militia, and Robert E. Lee was originally a Union officer.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[dbIII]

Looks like I am mistaken - Weinberger, Clarridge etc got pardoned not North and Poindexter. From the wikipedia summary it looks like reality was a circle-jerk of immunities to prosecution with nobody left over to actually prosecute apart from the guy that took money North embezzled to build a fence.
Still, I think it's far more valid to accuse North or treason than to accuse Snowden - there's a lot of the latter going on despite no formal finding.

Re: Another victory for corporate corruption

[dryeo]

Neither was really a rebellion. Rather wars of separation. Washington and Lee were both defending their homes from distant governments with Washington being happy to stop fighting after 13 of the colonies got their independence and Lee would likely have happily stopped fighting if a treaty giving the Confederates everything south of the Mason Dixon line had been offered.
I guess a lot would depend on who had the best propagandists, with the American current establishment having very good ones, often made all the better as they aren't working for the government.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[KGIII]

I think, if I must be specific in my rage, I'd say that North was an ignorant fuckface who doesn't deserve to be called a Marine. I'd say Snowden's a damned patriot and would love to see Obama pardon him on the way out. Unfortunately, we've a code of conduct. North is a Marine. He got his honorable, he has his DD214, his crimes were vacated - with help from the ACLU, even. That doesn't mean I have to like it. I'd crack him in the jaw, given the chance, but I suspect that old man still has a bit of fight in him.

Yes, yes he sort of was a patsy but he was fully aware of what he was doing, of what he was facilitating, and no Marine should disobey unlawful orders. I took an oath to uphold the Constitution. That means something to me. That oath did not end when I got my DD214. In fact, that's when that oath became all the more important.

I'd write more but... Umm... I've been poopin' for a few days and was hurling cookies for a while - I'm improving and I even ate. So, I'm tired and not thinking clearly.

Re: Another victory for corporate corruption

[ArmoredDragon]

Neither was really a rebellion. Rather wars of separation.

... Seriously? It's the same thing. The confederates were the rebels. So were the colonists.

Re: Another victory for corporate corruption

[ArmoredDragon]

Oh and also Robert E Lee was from Virginia, so the nation's capital wasn't exactly distant.

Re: Another victory for corporate corruption

[dryeo]

They were separatists. Washington never planned on marching on London and Lee marched on Washington after being attacked by the north.

Re: Another victory for corporate corruption

[ArmoredDragon]

They were separatists. Washington never planned on marching on London and Lee marched on Washington after being attacked by the north.

And that invalidates my point how, exactly?

Re: Another victory for corporate corruption

[dryeo]

You made the claim that the American Military would have sympathy for an armed rebellion against tyranny and I stated that an armed rebellion would be spun as a socialist revolution which the military wouldn't support then you gave a couple of examples of commanders in the army that joined wars of separation for their own tyrannical ends (Washington to continue to steal land from the savages and Lee to have the same right as Grant to own slaves).
Really it comes down to who has the best propagandists and the American establishment has been practicing since they spun King Georges declaration that everyone is equal to a statement of tyranny when he had little more power then the current Queen with Parliament being Supreme (since the mostly peaceful Glorious Revolution of 1688) and passing the laws that were tyrannical.

Re: Another victory for corporate corruption

[ArmoredDragon]

You made the claim that the American Military would have sympathy for an armed rebellion against tyranny and I stated that an armed rebellion would be spun as a socialist revolution which the military wouldn't support

From what you say, it sounds as if you think of the military as a bunch of robots that will just instantly obey commands. It doesn't work that way. Everybody in the military has civilian family members. All of them. They're also, most of the time, in constant contact with them. If their family were to take up something like that, it would draw sympathy. Such was the case with Robert E Lee in fact.

Washington to continue to steal land from the savages

That's not even close to accurate. Washington didn't even want independence at first. He had loyalty to the British Army and only wanted a different economic relationship with England. However he eventually realized that England didn't respect American colonists, and eventually joined his countrymen.

Lee to have the same right as Grant to own slaves

You don't even know history at all. The civil war was a rebellion against what they perceived as tyranny. I don't care how you try to spin it otherwise. It was over state's rights, as they felt that the federal government was imposing its authority in a way that they considered unacceptable. The whole slavery issue didn't even come up until after the civil war was well underway. Robert E. Lee actually preferred for the US to remain as a union, but he only joined the Confederacy because his family and everybody who lived in his area wanted to secede, and his loyalty was with them rather than the federal government, hence he defected.

Sorry but you've totally blown yourself out of this argument completely as you've demonstrated a complete and utter lack of knowledge of history.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[dbIII]

I hope you get better soon. I keep on bringing up North et al every now and again as an example of how when things get political the actions can be the exact opposite of what the people doing them say their values are. Since he's still very much active in NRA politics today it's a good reminder that they are not quite what they pretend to be. However I was relying on memory too much and mixing up all the many other players who "did not deal with terrorists" - unless of course the terrorists had a business model of kidnapping Americans and swapping them for a very large number of anti-tank missiles.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[KGIII]

Want to hear a funny one? I have so many firearms, including two classed arms (namely an M22 - Chinese AK47 and an M14) both of which are capable of fully automatic firing. I have a full room, about 20' x 20' surrounded by reinforced concrete in my basement. That room has a special steel door built into it, the frame itself is not just embedded into the concrete but has extensions that embed the frame further into that concrete. The lock operates a large pin at the top and two places on the side.

Inside that room, two full sided are lined with safes. Inside each of those safes are a bunch of firearms. In the rear is are stacks, whole cases, of rounds (you might call them bullets) so we'll settle on ammunition. I have case, after case, after case - pallets of ammunition. I do, in fact, own a pallet jack. I have so much ammunition that would be "holy shit" moment for the BATFE, or those who would think I'm a danger.

Inside that room are safes. You need a key to get into the room and then you need to know how to open the safes. The safes are bolted into the floor and into the wall. Inside those safes are more firearms than I actually know about. A low-ball estimate would be about 1200 but I'm rather certain that there are more. I think they must be mating because every time I look, I find one that I don't actually remember buying.

I say that to say this: I abhor the NRA. I don't mind, and I am grateful, for some of the things they have done. But, they've gone off the deep end in the past twenty years. I'm an aficionado, not a nut. I am in favor of reasonable regulation, honest-effort enforcement, and enforced safety certifications - with repeats as needed.

Let's face it, I own some damned dangerous firearms. I can arm, equip, and form quite a group of angry people. It pains me to say this but when you get to a collection this size (two of my firearms must be accounted for 24/7 - on a moments notice, the two mentioned above) they, the government, probably ought to know that I have this collection.

Of course, at the opposite end of the spectrum, I feel I should be allowed to own any military weapon not classified as a weapon of mass destruction. Why? I like things that go boom. I love blasting the hell out of innocent bits of paper and other inanimate objects. I don't see any harm in that, in and of itself. I can even make a Constitutional argument to support my view.

But no, I hate the NRA. They make it impossible to have a real, productive, conversation about responsible firearm ownership.

Now back to the point...

I served 8 years enlisted in the Marines. Part of that time was at Camp Lejeune. While I was there, Oliver North and his immediate family were kept there under protective custody because of the many death threats they received. I hate the man. I do not accept, "I was following orders." I understand it. I do not accept it. I met the man, he was broken at the time, and it's sad. You can tell a Marine by how they carry themselves, it's a casual, alert, but prepared walk - you see it with high level martial artists, special forces soldiers, and from people who have been in the shit for too long. Him? He walked like the guy with the proverbial 1000 yard stare. Gone, lifeless, and broken.

Is that unfair, I don't know - you tell me. I'm too close to the subject matter to be objective. He knowingly facilitated, he had to know it was wrong, and he did it anyways. But, he was still given his DD214, his convictions were vacated, and he was (more or less) a scapegoat - even if he holds some partial guilt

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[dbIII]

The only reason I no longer own a rifle is because my eyesight is shit and I can no longer hit anything, but I grew up with the values of responsible gun storage and gun use that you list above.

I feel I should be allowed to own any military weapon

You know how to use them responsibly and are not going to hand a fully automatic weapon to a small child as some idiot who paid with his life when the obvious happened last year. Others who bleat loudly about such things appear to know less about responsible gun use than I had to learn at the age of seven before I first handled a rifle, but I was brought up by parents who both hunted as children to bring home meat during WWII and see guns as tools and not some weird flag substitute.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[KGIII]

It's funny how that is. There's a huge paradigm shift and I honestly don't think the NRA is helping. See, I support mandatory training for anything >.221 and any shot larger than 410. I commend you for putting your rifle away when your eyesight got poor. Maybe you can visit a range? I own some obscenely strong optics and a Barrett. Just so long as you're pointed the right direction, we should be all good.

This may sound strange but i just recently had three Slashdotters and their families show for an open invite NYE party. In short, if you want a safe place and a huge array of choices (probably about 1200 but they keep mating so I never know exactly how many I have) then swing up to Maine sometime. It's all free including food and housing. ;-)

That said, I have to end this quick. I have pneumonia and it was just diagnosed today. (Note the lack of novellas for the past week.) If the missus catches me, I'll get grouched at.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[dbIII]

I have pneumonia and it was just diagnosed today

Best of luck, a friend got over that a couple of months back.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[dbIII]

That's extremely kind of you though I'll probably never get up that way and a reminder that there's some pretty nice human beings on this site. In return I can't currently offer in return anything better than somewhere to put a tent, but it is a place where it will be 93F in the shade tomorrow :)

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[KGIII]

I already have a place in Florida and Nevada. I'm actually thinking about having a friend go to my house and pick up a few firearms and take them out to Nevada before I return home to Maine. There's also a few good "machine gun shoots" in Nevada. I own two classed firearms. Well, I own more but two that would be typically considered classed by non-experts. I have an AK47 which is technically an M22 from China - meant for the NVA during Viet Nam, we think. The paperwork is legal but the history is pretty sketchy. It was NIB when I bought it. Yes, yes it was expensive. (I've probably talked about that particular "friend" enough. He's a gunsmith who actually retired to Maine before I did but he was in Winston-Salem too.) I also own an M14.

I'm a firearm aficionado, like automobiles, I appreciate the labor, the mechanics, the utilitarian nature, and the constant improvement that you can apply to yourself while attempting to master the operation of both. I'm not a 2nd Amendment jackass - I'm kind of fond of all the Amendments. Well, except the ones that have been negated. I think "arms" should include anything that is not a weapon of mass destruction, I have owned (licensed) real hand grenades. Yup, they were legal. Yup, there was a $500 tax on each and every single one of them. I gotta tell you, it was worth the ~$1500 each - they were the pineapple grenades from WWII. I had a full dozen. I have exactly zero. It was a lot of fun.

Because I have classed firearms, I must be able to account for them at all times. Not even at 'reasonable' times (so far as my lawyer tells me). They can knock and demand an accounting at 0400 on a Sunday. Failure to provide that accounting means prison, or so I understand. I'm okay with that - I have dangerous weapons. I understand that that places my burden on a different level than Joe Average with his shotgun. I accept the differences in paperwork, costs, and accountability.

This is where I differ and I think I mentioned this earlier. If it's shot larger than .410 or fires a single projectile larger than .221 (call it .22 LR) then I think mandatory training, proficiency, should not be beyond the discussion. That's something we should discuss. That's a reasonable conversation to have. We can make it a class if school. I had my own firearms at school. I had four match pistols, three match rifles, and one hunting rifle in the head master's closet. The closet wasn't even locked. I always got permission but I was on the rifle and pistol teams. I have my big and little pizza boxes as awarded by the USMC (not bragging but I shoot that well).

I do not donate to the NRA. I have some serious cash - mostly due to some hard work, long hours, but more accurately due to good luck and having the ability to hire smart people. I retired at 50. I sold my business for a fairly good sized 9 digit sum. It's a matter of public record and I guess this thread is old enough so that nobody will see it so I feel that I can comfortably share the numbers with you and you'll understand that it's not bragging but just to give insight as to why I am able to be who I am.

I'm assuming you're seated. I sold my business to a company that does almost nothing but fulfill government contracts. I did traffic modeling, specialized in vehicular traffic but we'd branched out and even built a research lab for pedestrian traffic modeling. If you know any history, you'll remember the "shovel ready jobs" and how many of those were highway jobs? Yeah... I sold for 98m in cash and 120m in stocks. It took six months to finalize the sale - I could not divest myself of the shares until after six months has passed or the SEC would have put me in prison. So, I sold in 2007 but it was really finalized.... Wow, it will be 8 years ago as of tomorrow.

I've never sent the NRA a dime. I imagine that might seem strange to you but, well, by now you might understand my outlook a bit better than most. I've literally tried to by an MRAP. They will not sell me one. But

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[dbIII]

Anyways, I think I should be able to buy a howitzer, a new one, and all the ammo I want so long as I pay the taxes

My great uncle had most if not all of a lewis gun, not quite the same but just as illegal, and probably quietly thrown away in the end which is a pity since there can't be many still around.
A funny thing recently was a big hue and cry over "rocket launchers" (and a biker having one), meaning the part left behind after a single use rocket is fired. It turns out that model was just the right size and shape to neatly hold several cans of beer so they made good souveneers, and since they were going to be thrown away anyway a blind eye was sometimes turned to those who wanted to take them away from the firing range. A baseball bat is more dangerous.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[KGIII]

That's a shame. Those were really impressive, for their day, and I'd actually probably tender a fairly good offer for something like that - even if it needed repairs and assuming it was repairable or could be made whole by a capable gunsmith. I'm not sure if I'm recollecting properly but I think some of them even ended up mounted on tripods to be used as anti-aircraft weapons. I'm an aficionado but not an all-knowing trivia buff. ;-) It'd make an excellent addition.

I turned down a Thompson for $7500 a few years back. I am still kicking myself for that one. I'd fired it, I didn't really like it. I still think it would have been a good buy - it's worth quite a bit more than that. There's a bunch of pre-ban stuff that's still highly functional and loads of fun. I just wish that I could demonstrate capacity for ownership and buy newer stuff. There's a slim chance that I'll move to somewhere that is less restrictive but there's that chance. I really like the freedoms afforded me here and I love my country - as screwed up as it is. Leaving would seem like I was giving up on it.

*sighs*

So, yeah, it'd be nice to be able to buy things that are not classed as weapons of mass destruction. I'd love to have an M4. I'm actually on the lookout for a true M16, pre-ban obviously, in good repair but they are stupidly expensive and it's hard to find someone willing to get rid of one that's been properly maintained. Now, if I could get it with the M203 (grenade launcher) then I'd be like a giddy school girl.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[dbIII]

but I think some of them even ended up mounted on tripods to be used as anti-aircraft weapons

Huge things with the load split over several camels so the story went. Unfortunately that's about the only story my great uncle told me about WWII, and that gun, plus my grandfathers hidden collection of WWII pistols packed in grease are long gone. I don't even have the 1920s 303 and 22 that seemed to be able to hit anything in the right hands but a nephew with good eyesight has those now.

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[dbIII]

More trivia: yet another reason I hate the NRA and the people they slip money to but don't hate guns.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-26/ted-cruz-rape-gun-claim-australia-lie-washington-post-says/7115598

Re:Another victory for corporate corruption

[KGIII]

I have a bit of history with the NRA and posting about them. I'm a firearm aficionado, to the point where I have a nice collection - even some historical pieces. I also was very fortunate in life and sold my company for an obscene amount of money and an even greater value in stock in the now-parent company. I had people from the NRA, calling me specifically, for donations - and using some odd tactics. I even had long email exchanges with a person who is fairly high in the NRA group. They *really* felt that I *owed* them a sizable donation. Not just a regular donation but a sizable donation. Not that I should give but that I owed.

They're actually the least offensive of the lot that engaged in that sort of behavior - it was unexpected behavior but I guess it's kind of common and a reason to not answer your own phone or emails. I'm not one to do either but I do, for now, finally have a phone number that few people know - and my land-line is hooked to an answering machine and serves only one purpose.

I had, years and years ago, sent them a donation for something or other. I've not sent them anything since and they've changed their tune since. They used to be a fairly helpful group. Now they exemplify the "gun nuts" that people complain about.

Get rid of this neoliberal scum!

[Anonymous Coward]

How did humankind get into such a sad state of affairs?

Re:Get rid of this neoliberal scum!

[FlyHelicopters]

How did humankind get into such a sad state of affairs?

Too many people seem happy to turn over responsibility for their lives to government and just accept being sheep?

Re:Get rid of this neoliberal scum!

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it is more along the lines that too many governments allow companies into their ranks and allow them to effectively write their laws for them. It isn't the government that is the problem, it is the corporations who have managed to subvert the will of the people within the government and inserted themselves into it that is the problem.

And getting rid of the government doesn't get rid of the corporations. On the contrary, many times it just leads to the corporations having more direct control with even less recourse for the person.

Getting rid of a controlling body many times just leads to another entity filling that vacuum and taking on that roll instead. It is how we end up with black markets and cartels.

Re:Get rid of this neoliberal scum!

[Anonymous Coward]

> Getting rid of a controlling body many times just leads to another entity filling that vacuum

Kinda of what is happening with the IS in Iraq, Syria and now Algeria? Are Wall Street and Monsanto *our* IS?

Re:Get rid of this neoliberal scum!

[hyades1]

Why make this about governments? They ceded control to their corporate masters years ago.

It's Corporate America Offshore to whom the sheeple are turning over their lives.

Re:Get rid of this neoliberal scum!

[Anonymous Coward]

Too many people seem happy to turn over responsibility for their lives to other people and just accept being sheep?

ftfy. it is possible to debate who is in control, but in the end we have gotten this way because when times are good, people are very willing to turn over control to someone else.

Re:Get rid of this neoliberal scum!

[KeensMustard]

I'd say too many people willing to place the blame on other people and call them leftist/rightist over minor disagreements in policy rather than do what's needed, which is to stand together and resist the common enemy.

Re:Get rid of this neoliberal scum!

[riverat1]

And getting rid of the government doesn't get rid of the corporations. On the contrary, many times it just leads to the corporations having more direct control with even less recourse for the person.

Seeing that a corporation exists as a legal entity enabled by laws enacted by the government if the government ceases to exist the corporation ceases to exist as a legal entity at the same time. (Which doesn't mean the people running the corporation stop, they just lose the legal protections that incorporation grants them.)

Re:Get rid of this neoliberal scum!

[Anonymous Coward]

Bribes.... a.k.a. Lobbying

And that great big sucking sound...

[Anonymous Coward]

.. is all that money being hoovered up by lawyers in the United States of America billing hours to Chinese companies who are trying to business in Mexico.

Sedition

[Anonymous Coward]

Any American government official who signs the TPP is guilty of sedition as far as I'm concerned. The TPP violates the sovereignty of the US, and has bypassed the will of the people through a quite literal conspiracy.

I loathe conspiracy theories, and don't subscribe to any of them. This single issue though is in fact a conspiracy to defraud the American people among others, and is a violation of our democracy. It's a conspiracy because it is an agreement that will affect all of us, but has intentionally been kept under wraps. Because the negotiators are acutely aware that if the TPP had been public knowledge for the last several years, there'd be at best another Battle in Seattle type of debacle, and that the people governed by the treaty wouldn't stand for it.

Re:Sedition

[N1AK]

Because the negotiators are acutely aware that if the TPP had been public knowledge for the last several years, there'd be at best another Battle in Seattle type of debacle, and that the people governed by the treaty wouldn't stand for it.

The thing is, if that was true then a candidates who promised to repeal it would be popular at the next election and I seriously doubt the average voter will care about it as an issue. You have democratic accountability, if they use 'secret' negotiations to come up with something the public don't like then the public has the capability to vote in people who will repeal it.

Re:Sedition

[FlyHelicopters]

I seriously doubt the average voter will care about it as an issue.

Sadly the average voter doesn't care because the average voter is an idiot...

Who neither knows about such things, nor actually wants to learn. Most people are happy to be ignorant and rant at the TV.

Re:Sedition

[Anonymous Coward]

Sadly the average voter doesn't care because the average voter is an idiot...

Who neither knows about such things, nor actually wants to learn. Most people are happy to be ignorant and rant at the TV.

Democracy sucks, yes. But do you have an alternative that gives a better average result?

Re: Sedition

[Anonymous Coward]

So, who is up for a quick trip to Canberra to arrest our minister-for-screwing-us-with-trade-agreements .. or does he actually have to sign the thing to be guilty of treason?

If we do Rob for treason does that invalidate the signature?

Re:Sedition

[sociocapitalist]

Any American government official who signs the TPP is guilty of sedition as far as I'm concerned. The TPP violates the sovereignty of the US, and has bypassed the will of the people through a quite literal conspiracy.

I loathe conspiracy theories, and don't subscribe to any of them. This single issue though is in fact a conspiracy to defraud the American people among others, and is a violation of our democracy. It's a conspiracy because it is an agreement that will affect all of us, but has intentionally been kept under wraps. Because the negotiators are acutely aware that if the TPP had been public knowledge for the last several years, there'd be at best another Battle in Seattle type of debacle, and that the people governed by the treaty wouldn't stand for it.

Well it's been out in the open now for awhile and hasn't been signed yet and there is no sign of any Battle in Seattle type debacle - or much of anything really.

Ergo people don't give enough of a shit to bother.

Not saying they're right, just saying that appears to be the case.

Re:Sedition

[drinkypoo]

Any American government official who signs the TPP is guilty of sedition as far as I'm concerned. The TPP violates the sovereignty of the US, and has bypassed the will of the people through a quite literal conspiracy.
I loathe conspiracy theories, and don't subscribe to any of them.

Except you just espoused one. You don't even know what you're saying. Why don't you go away until you do? The truth is that secret criminal conspiracies are as common as breathing. You feel special because you've opened your eyes to just one of them, but you're still denigrating those who believe in others in the same breath. We can do without you, and in fact, we would be better off without you. Crushing WTO protests and refusing to give valid reasons. WMDs. NIH telling us fat makes you fat. Secret conspiracies to defraud the people are SOP and you're still in denial.

Re:Sedition

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes. Lots of democracies. Break up the god damn country and let the Meth States sink themselves.

Re: Sedition

[Anonymous Coward]

Please tell us exactly what provision you object to?

Re:Sedition

[Anonymous Coward]

With no exit clause in the treaty, permission to repeal will be needed from each of the foreign signatories.

LOL... captcha == pucker

Re:Sedition

[Anonymous Coward]

people don't give enough of a shit to bother.

The TV hasn't told them to give a shit and it's not going to.

Re:Sedition

[Anonymous Coward]

> NIH telling us fat makes you fat.
But was that an error or a lie? Do you know if it was intentional?

Re: Sedition

[riverat1]

The provision I object to the most is the Investor-State Dispute Settlement section. It can allow corporations to override national sovereignty.

Re:Sedition

[drinkypoo]

But was that an error or a lie? Do you know if it was intentional?

We know it was intentional because it was based on "evidence" that clearly did not say what they claimed it said. When they lie to you about their logic, then they are clearly lying to you about their motivations. In this case, they claimed that eating fat made you fat on the basis of a study that actually said that taking drugs to reduce your cholesterol reduced your risk of heart disease, and that the best way to lose weight was to avoid fats and to focus on a diet made out of a whole bunch of carbohydrates, as enshrined in the prior vision of the "food pyramid". So we know it was intentional, but we don't know precisely what they got for it.

Is it just me, or does anyone else think it's pathetic that Slashdot only wants comments from people who take five minutes to think of them? If it takes you five minutes to think of what you want to say, given the average comment length here your thought is probably not of sufficient quality to be interesting to others anyway. If it takes you five minutes to type out a comment of average length, and you do not have some sort of disability involved, then you're probably not a nerd, either.

No thanks

[ChunderDownunder]

World Bank suggests Australia's economy would grow by less than 1%.

Re:No thanks

[arglebargle_xiv]

.. while it's been slowly going down the tubes at a far higher rate than 1%. On a recent trip to New Zealand I was shocked to see that the banks were offering a cash rate of 1:1 from AUD to NZD. I mean, it used to be close to 1:1 with the USD, and now it's 1:1 with the NZD. I guess the government's next major goal is to make it 1:1 with the RMB.

I blame the illegal migrants

[Anonymous Coward]

Bloody queue jumpers invading by boats a few years back ensured that we now have a bloody minded corporate loving liberal government who will sign any trade agreement put in front of them.

Damn the asshats for trying to invade here by boat.

Damn the pollies who accept this rot.

How much will Australia lose from this..

We should build a wall

[Anonymous Coward]

So that nobody can sign it.

And of course, they're signing it in Mordor.

[cunina]

"In the darkness bind them," indeed.

Morons blame the illegal migrants

[Anonymous Coward]

Because *legal* immigrants write 6000 page trade agreements in a leaky fucking boat.

*Newsflash* - You are the blame for these things because you are an apethetic asshole who doesn't give a shit about anyone except yourself. Fuck you for what your apathy has turn *all* our countries into.

Re:Morons blame the illegal migrants

[blackpaw]

Also there is no such thing as a :"Queue" or a "Queue Jumper"

Welcome to the Corpocracy

[MrKaos]

So will you write to the politicians? There is something on I want to watch - I'll do it later.

Will you discuss it with anyone? No, I'm feeding my face with farce food.

Will you even ring a politician about it? What were we talking about?

Face it, for all of the rage no-one will do *anything* at all, just blah blah blah. We had a chance to stop this and now it is here so just keep pointing fingers at everyone but yourself because that will solve the problem.

Re:Welcome to the Corpocracy

[drinkypoo]

Face it, for all of the rage no-one will do *anything* at all, just blah blah blah. We had a chance to stop this

[citation needed]

I suspect that we had no chance to stop this without worldwide armed rebellion. We'll never know, but it's the way to bet. Look around you.

Re:Welcome to the Corpocracy

[rock_climbing_guy]

I know you're trolling, but... In 2014, I had the chance to vote in a new US Senator. My then current senator was a big supporter of everything that President Barack Obama advocates. Almost immediately, the new Senator that I voted for declared his support for giving Barack Obama the TPA authority he wanted to shove TPP down our throats. I called his office to express my displeasure.

Why did I even bother voting?

Re:Welcome to the Corpocracy

[xrobertcmx]

Actually, I wrote and called mine. Both voted to fast track the blasted thing. Now, I've moved to a new state and my new Senators and Rep are fully bought and paid for unlike my previous who had only been partially bought.

Re:Welcome to the Corpocracy

[xrobertcmx]

This is a cross party thing. Oddly it is more in line with Republican/Big Money politics than Democrat. I know in a lot of ways the President was a Trojan horse, but I never expected a full sell out. Some things like the NSA and Guantanamo I knew would not change, still given the alternatives, you work with what you have.

Re:Welcome to the Corpocracy

[sydbarrett74]

The Democratic Party has been allied with 'Big Money' at least since the era of Clinton. He happily signed the Gramm-Bliley-Leach Act, which dismantled Glass-Steagall. You can lay a big part of the blame for the Great Recession at Slick Willie's feet. When he was campaigning in '92, he ushered in an era of the 'New Democrats' (cf. New Labour in the UK) and actively courted Wall Street. This alignment with plutocrats is nothing new for them. In an age of billion-dollar political campaigns, you go where the money is.

Re:Welcome to the Corpocracy

[MrKaos]

I know you're trolling,

Sorta, but not, more angry sad frustrated. A lot of people tried, a lot more didn't. It's not their fault for being deceived, but it also is. Most people are just trying to get by in life and these fuckers come along and just make it harder for everybody cause they haven't got enough money.

Why did I even bother voting?

Because if we give up we loose everything.

Re:Welcome to the Corpocracy

[Anonymous Coward]

Correct, and as a New Zealander, I know New Zealanders will complain and whine about it like no tomorrow, maybe a few will drive their tractors up the Bee Hive steps but will completely fail to band together with a common goal and use every process available to do something about it.

NZ helped create the TPP, then invited the rest of the world into it, so I guess you're about to be hung by your own noose.

Re: Welcome to the Corpocracy

[Anonymous Coward]

He still turned around the deficit. Granted the dot Com bubble helped a bit. More then I can say about any other fucking president.

Re:Welcome to the Corpocracy

[Anonymous Coward]

And with the DNC wanting Hillary we'll only get more of the same.

Re:Welcome to the Corpocracy

[david_thornley]

Senator Klobuchar told me it was probably not coming up for a vote until November. I don't know if she was correct or not, but from what I know of her she wouldn't lie about that. My other two Congressional representatives sent "thank you for getting in contact with us" messages.

Re:Welcome to the Corpocracy

[MrKaos]

Thank you for trying.

Re:Welcome to the Corpocracy

[MrKaos]

Thank you!

The real question is...

[RobinH]

What's in it for me?

Re:The real question is...

[xrobertcmx]

Job loss, tainted food, environmental damage, homelessness, starvation, disease related to pollution, a lot fun stuff that comes with corporate governance. On the bright side, after the collapse, you might find work as a Bounty Hunter for the Council.

Signing will not make it law

[houghi]

It will just make it official. Not signing it would mean they have to do it unofficially and that is just a bit harder.
Then you need to say 'we broke the law, so what?' instead of 'we followed the rules'.

They say you should hate the game, not the player, but the players keep changing the game.

Feel free to use my letter

[MrKaos]

Dear Minister

I wish to voice my opposition to the Trans Pacific Partnership Bill. I ask that you reject the Trans Pacific Partnership until proper time has been given for our citizens to analyse it's effect.

Considering there are roughly thirty chapters and 6000 pages in this Trade Agreement I would be expecting it to be scrutinised and proper time for the ramifications to be thoughly assessed and not rushed passed the house, considering there is no emergency that it addresses.

As an important part of a functioning democracy, citizens should be allowed to veiw all documents being presented to the parliment so that the impact on our society can be evaluated. The secrecy that has shoulded this bill over the last few years of it's construction followed by the limited time granted, relative to the amount of pages in the Bill, to allow for such analysis subverts the intention of democratic process.

As our representatives you are bound to provide 'Responsible Government' to citizens. Passing a Bill that cannot be evaluated is not a form of responsible government, for this reason alone the Bill should be rejected.

I would like the house to go further and introduce laws, practises or other available legislative instruments that prevent the rushing any legislation into law that has a detremental effect to the country and, that in the event of any emergency legislation passed as law, a mandatory sunset period that has the duration of the government that sponsors the bill.

The other issues rasied by segments of the TPP leaked on the Internet that effectively give away the effective sovreignty of our nation, through Investor State Dispute Settlements, is disturbing. Chilling effects on the Health, intellectual property and many other things that are nation destroying.

For these reasons, and many more, I ask you to defeat the TPP passing into law, and enact structures that prevent these kinds of agreements ever being rushed through the House.

Sincerely

Re: Feel free to use my letter

[Anonymous Coward]

You can write until your hands fall off. It won't matter. It's a done deal already.

Re: Feel free to use my letter

[MrKaos]

You can write until your hands fall off. It won't matter. It's a done deal already.

There is always hope that a violent man will stop being violent one day, but there is no hope for a coward. - Ghandi.

Re: Feel free to use my letter

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, try and do something about it. At best, you will be ignored. At worst you will be arrested - or killed - and your loved ones will pay a terrible price for your foolishness.

Re:Feel free to use my letter

[rock_climbing_guy]

Dear MrKaos,

Thank you for taking the time to write to my office. I always appreciate engaged subjects taking a role in the democratic process.

Please rest assured that this agreement has been properly scrutinized by those who have the proper need to know. Rest assured that TPP is in the best interests of the people who matter.

We do understand that we have concerns, but we really don't care. Why? Because FUCK YOU, that's why!

Now shut up and go back to sleep.

Sincerely,

The Man

Re:Feel free to use my letter

[MrKaos]

We do understand that we have concerns, but we really don't care. Why? Because FUCK YOU, that's why!

Now shut up and go back to sleep.

Sincerely,

The Man

Pretty much spot on for some. One response was snarky, others were more like, yeah we don't like it either but it's happening and you can either enjoy being fist fucked or not. That is your democratic right.

Re:Feel free to use my letter

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget to include the wad of cash. Numbers are the only thing these politicians read.

Re: Feel free to use my letter

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, try and do something about it. At best, you will be ignored. At worst you will be arrested - or killed - and your loved ones will pay a terrible price for your foolishness.

In time, so will yours, but only after you've betrayed them. You will live a hell that you are too much of a coward to escape from. Everyone will take pleasure from your final humiliation. At the end, you will be betrayed by the masters you betrayed them to because whilst they hate you, they want to use your loyalty to your ideals to destroy everyone else they hate. You will be disposed of in the way people use toilet paper after a shit.

Re:Feel free to use my letter

[Bob the Super Hamste]

Sadly if I got that response it would be an improvement. If I get a response from either of my senators it is usually something thanking me for my support (I didn't support their decision) and how hard it was to make this difficult decision or non decision (yes I did get a response about how hard their non decision was once thanks Klobuchar).

Re:Feel free to use my letter

[Anonymous Coward]

The Man should quickly go talk to his backroom boys, get the coppers on board, cause there's bound to be SOMEONE who will want to seriously disrupt this signing ceremony.

You think the SWAT raid on Dotcom was disproportionate, just wait until you see what The Right Dishonourable PM John Key has his thugs do to maintain order and control. Although recently rebuffed in the NZ courts for illegal raids on journalists, the fucker enjoys incredible support from a swarm of useful idiots.

On the other hand, the kiwis have a proud tradition of grass roots resistance, so we can all expect loud protests and the subsequent violent repression of the public.

In New Zealand, we get to vote on changing a flag that the vast majority of us did not want changed in the first place, with an incredibly stupid unprofessional undemocratic selection process , but no say in the matter of ceding our sovereignty to the global corporate overlords.

Worse thing is, most of the population don't seem to give a fucking rat's ass...

Re: Feel free to use my letter

[Anonymous Coward]

Lol. How old are you? You're either a little kid or a retarded adult. Might makes right, it has always been that way and it will always be. Go protest, go riot in the streets. Enjoy the baton on your teeth. Enjoy the bullet through your gut. I can adapt, like all adults do. And I bet in time you will, too. Come to your senses and lose the naive ideals that echo through that empty skull of yours and join the reasonable people. Or keep groveling in your misery and dream of the revolution that will never come until you're a bitter old man trying to lure the young to join a cause that has never made sense. Retard.

Re: Feel free to use my letter

[Anonymous Coward]

Your defeatism saddens me. Tell me, in the entirety of your miserable life, have you ever spent one ounce of energy maintaining your democracy?

Re: Feel free to use my letter

[Anonymous Coward]

The words of the suppressor. You are the one dressed in black, face hidden who do those things to people because you are sick. Go live in North Korea, where you belong. Living in fear is more than you deserve and if you are lucky the mobs of people figure out who you are and dole out street justice to put you out of the misery you can't end for yourself. You're not reasonable, you're a coward and a traitor to the democracy that you grew up in.

Secret treaty

[Anonymous Coward]

They're making a bit thing of signing this treaty, but it's still being kept secret!

We only know about the "Corporate Sovereignty" clauses from leaks of early drafts! The stuff that allows corporations to sue countries to overturn their laws, and the "court" make of corporate lawyers that hear the cases in secret with no democratic oversight.

Re:Secret treaty

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

I am happy with companies, AKA people, being able to sue idiotic local protectionist laws out of existence. That is part of what free trade is about. This has been used against the US under current treaties already.

The TPP has problems, but this isn't one of them.

Re:Secret treaty

[riverat1]

The Investor-State Dispute Settlement clauses are among the worst provisions with these trade deals. They're a direct assault on national sovereignty. Why should investors be guaranteed profits especially over a nations environmental laws or measures they take for the welfare of their citizens? Corporations exist to serve the people, not the other way around.

Trans-Canada is suing the USA for $15 billion under the ISDS terms of NAFTA because the Keystone XL pipeline was not approved.

Doesn't "necessarily" make it law?

[Anonymous Coward]

In the U.S. at least, signing does NOT make it law, period. Any Senator who votes for ratification of this disaster is a traitor and should be hanged.

Re:Doesn't "necessarily" make it law?

[Bob the Super Hamste]

Don't worry the president wants it as do various IP holders (Hollywood types) so the Ds will mostly vote for it. Also it helps out big business and is a trade agreement so the Rs will also mostly vote for it while a few make hay.

This will be a disaster

[humptheElephant]

Just look at what's happening under NAFTA. A Canadian Company (Trans Canada) is suing the US for 15 billion because we stopped the Keystone pipeline (http://www.democracynow.org/2016/1/7/transcanada_sues_the_us_for_15b). This means that a private corporation from a TPP country can sue the US or another trade partner and have it tried by a panel corporate representatives. The amount can be not only the cost of a project, but also the expected profits. For example, with the Keystone lawsuit, the cost of the pipeline is 3 billion and the expected profits 12 billion. So the US taxpayers are on the hook for the 15 billion if TransCanada wins.

Re:This will be a disaster

[Anonymous Coward]

Good luck collecting it.

Re:This will be a disaster

[U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M]

I'm extremely glad that one of the first stupid lawsuit comes from Canada against the USA. If the USA being sued by a close friendly neighbour doesn't wake up your elected officials, nothing will.

Re:This will be a disaster

[Anonymous Coward]

Canada has been sued numerous times under NAFTA. It was a terrible deal for Canada and so is the TPP. Look up softwood lumber, manufacturing, copyright laws for more information
http://www.pressprogress.ca/5_times_canada_got_sued_under_nafta_for_trying_to_protect_its_environment

Re:This will be a disaster

[dryeo]

Makes a change as it is usually American companies suing the Canadian government for billions in lost profits due to things like banning poisons.
The ACs link, http://www.pressprogress.ca/5_...

first law of government

[Anonymous Coward]

any government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you have.

Send in the drones

[Crowd Computing]

And people wonder why I want an armed population...

I don't trust government. It can do good, I don't think we could live without any government (that would be equally silly), but I don't trust them either.

In a few more decades the second amendment will become obsolete. Good luck shooting down your local Autonomous Mobile Crime Enforcer. Better start agitating for 28th amendment, the right to build robots.

When?

[Anonymous Coward]

When did he say he wouldn't support it? All he said was he'd look at the details before signing.

Re:When?

[ThatsMyNick]

This. He was/is generally in favor of free trade agreements. About TPP in particular, he wanted to see the details before forming an opinion. You must a Grade A moron if you thought he was against TPP.

Send this spellchecked one instead

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish to voice my opposition to the Trans Pacific Partnership Bill. I ask that you reject the Trans Pacific Partnership until proper time has been given for our citizens to analyze it's effect.

Considering there are roughly thirty chapters and 6000 pages in this Trade Agreement I would be expecting it to be scrutinized and proper time for the ramifications to be thoroughly assessed and not rushed passed the house, considering there is no emergency that it addresses.

As an important part of a functioning democracy, citizens should be allowed to view all documents being presented to the parliament so that the impact on our society can be evaluated. The secrecy that has shrouded this bill over the last few years of it's construction followed by the limited time granted, relative to the amount of pages in the Bill, to allow for such analysis subverts the intention of democratic process.

As our representatives you are bound to provide 'Responsible Government' to citizens. Passing a Bill that cannot be evaluated is not a form of responsible government, for this reason alone the Bill should be rejected.

I would like the house to go further and introduce laws, practices or other available legislative instruments that prevent the rushing any legislation into law that has a detrimental effect to the country and, that in the event of any emergency legislation passed as law, a mandatory sunset period that has the duration of the government that sponsors the bill.

The other issues raised by segments of the TPP leaked on the Internet that effectively give away the effective sovereignty of our nation, through Investor State Dispute Settlements, is disturbing. Chilling effects on the Health, intellectual property and many other things that are nation destroying.

For these reasons, and many more, I ask you to defeat the TPP passing into law, and enact structures that prevent these kinds of agreements ever being rushed through the House.

Sincerely

Re:Send this spellchecked one instead

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck. It's should be "its" in the first senstence

Let's fix that.

[emil]

We've dealt with non-compete agreements in IT for decades. Let's impose some on the politicians.

Every piece of tech is now a data cell

[future assassin]

which falls in very nicely with corporatocracy and them knowing everything about you. There wont be on thing that is needed for day to day living that won't recoded your every daily action.

And the last time an armed population helped was..

[gwolf]

I don't know what are your referents. There have been a couple successful revolutions changing society for the better, I would never contend it, but as other commenters have said, it's (by far) the exception rather than the rule. Most armed millitias just demand more power or money for their particular feud, or if surprisingly successful, end up establishing ruthless dictatorships. Besides, revolting against a central government that has everything from tanks to air bombers to nukes... is just a silly way of perpetrating one of the most society-hurting and anachronistic USA history memes.

Free Trade wins!!

[Anonymous Coward]

SCREWED AGAIN.

The one thing both US parties agree on:

[Anonymous Coward]

Enslavement of the masses

A readable intro to some implications of the TPP

[Dusty101]

http://economixcomix.com/home/...