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DOJ and 4 States Want $24 Billion In Fines From Dish Network For Telemarketing (arstechnica.com)
walterbyrd writes: The DOJ as well as Ohio, Illinois, California, and North Carolina say that Dish disregarded federal laws on call etiquette. US lawyers are asking for $900 million in civil penalties, and the four states are asking for $23.5 billion in fines, according to the Denver Post. 'Laws against phoning people on do-not-call lists and using recorded messages allow penalties of up to $16,000 per violation,' the Post added.
The first amendment right is a right to speak. Its not a right to force others to listen.
No first amendment rights are being violated here. There is a do not call list that people opt into that means "This person does not wish to recieve your phone calls". If you think that allowing people to be forced into hearing others speech is OK, then fine, but lets not pretend that position is about defending rights.
Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
The difference is that telemarketing steals your time in a way you can't reallocate. It's a much more significant intrusion than junk mail, and much more inconsiderate. And it is used much more frequently by very disreputable companies who hide caller IDs, refuse to give you real addresses, pretend to have preexisting relationships with you, etc...
Basically the sheer quantity of fraud combined with the much greater intrusion make it an appropriate area for regulation. The phone companies should be preventing it but don't. So long as the phone companies won't, governments should.
The First Amendment guarantees a voice, but does not guarantee a platform. The fines for ignoring the DNC list are not for speaking; they are for violating the DNC list.
If you want something, file a civil suit.
Lawyers can get a cut of lawsuits. These $$ are fines. Fines go directly to the government.
But you're right that the people who were most affected won't see a penny.
The first amendment does not cover their use of my resources (my phone line) to convey their speech. They tie up my resources to do their speech. As soon as this is not the case, we can talk about their freedom of speech.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
That's fine, too. One less annoyance in the world is already a good outcome.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Nail 'em to the wall, boys.
Ain't nobody got time for telemarketer calls.
I don't care if the fine money goes to ISIS, better them than telemarketers allowed to roam free in parks where there are unattended children. Bastards.
moox. for a new generation.
There is a serious collective action problem here. Between caller ID spoofing, robo-calling, callers refusing to identify their company or who they are calling on behalf of, and outright fraud, it is all but impossible to establish a TCPA violator's identity well enough to stand up in court, and then it is practically impossible to enforce any judgment. The time and effort it takes to win money is more costly for most people than what they could collect in a civil case.
It isnt impossible. If someone wanted to they could identify these companies. The phone companies don't want to bother though. They have the technology though.
Should be the ones to get the money.
Someone got this story on the early-morning side.
If there's any money to be had you can bet that every single other state in the Union will have their attorneys general filing suit to join in the grab for cash.
This isn't about protecting consumers.
This isn't about punishing companies that screw with consumers.
It's not even making it about having dinner safe at home at eight o'clock at night without the damn phone ringing.
It's about government entities wanting MONEY from anyone and everyone they can get it from.
This won't stay "DOJ and four states" very long.
E
"Although I recognize that telemarketing can be annoying, it's a form of speech."
Telemarketing is speech in the same way that mugging is a display of affection.
"The republicans do that because that is how they be."
But because we're Republicans, we can shoot any telemarketers we catch.
You totally sound like a schill for telemarketers.
Do the signaling protocols that telcos use accurately carry source information, even when VoIP providers help spoofing? Why won't my caller phone show that info? I didn't say identifying the caller was impossible, just that it is inordinately difficult and often not worth the hassle. It also tends to raise one's blood pressure.
I contend that yes, the phone company *always* has the ability to find the source of a call, otherwise premium-rate (900, 976, phone sex, fortune-teller, etc.) calls would not work.
I bet if a telemarketer were to call a premium rate number, the phone company would have no problem knowing who to send the $2.99/minute bill to.
So, it's fine they're going after a big company for being robocall jerks.
I get a bunch of these calls every week and... it's never once been Dish. It's always these sleazy scam operations with "Stop what you're doing I can make you ten thousand bucks" or "The FBI says there's a break-in every 8 minutes." I know it's only anecdotal, but no one I know who complains about annoying robocalls has ever mentioned Dish, it's always scammers.
I don't doubt that Dish has abused their phone privileges. But while this (unrealistic) fine in the tens of billions of dollars is big headlines for these AGs, maybe before they tear a ligament patting themselves on the back, they could also do some (less glamorous but more impactful) work against these mom and pop scam outfits?
Nothing posted to
We so need a corporate death penalty. This isn't quite the case for it to be used but, it should certainly exist. Also, if the corporation is sentenced to death, all of the C-level executives should have an automatic prison sentence that can be enhanced for their crimes.
"Be particularly skeptical when presented with evidence confirming what you already believe." -
Although I recognize that telemarketing can be annoying, it's a form of speech.
True. The form is commercial.
Arguably it's no different than junk mail, which there's no effort to ban.
Except the effort to ban Junk mail.
Online ads, which actually can be harmful by inserting malware, are not banned.
C'mon, you have to be aware of Ad Blocking software, right?
I don't see why telemarketing is worse than those.
That's ok, you don't have to see it. It can be heard. And it is. People call and complain about it all the time.
There are good reasons why certain types of speech like slander and violent threats are illegal. However, telemarketing doesn't have the harmful impacts of those types of speech.
That's why it has different regulations, though I should point out that "slander" and "violent threats" are themselves subject to a wide grade of analysis and review, as well as differences in handling.
This is a first amendment issue, and the government shouldn't be able to enforce bans on telemarketing. If a particular form of advertising is particularly obnoxious, the market can handle it if customers just stop doing business with that company.
Unfortunately, you're wrong on this. Especially since most of the calls I get are not with an identifiable company, but some random fly-by-night operation.
Either they will adjust their business model as the telemarketing wastes money or takes business away from them, or they will go out of business. Consumers already have that power, so they don't need the government to infringe upon first amendment rights.
I need the government to protect my safety and security, to ensure my peace of mind.
Or stop interring with me as I seek to make sure certain people pay the consequences of their actions.
I quit Dish years ago and still get at least two or three pieces of junk mail from them every week wanting me to come back. Now I can tell you the reason I cancelled Dish was not because I hated Dish, or it was too expensive. It was simply that where I moved to I could not get a decent signal. Now I can see Dish Network using different media to sell their services. But to spend postage to continually hound a former customer who cannot receive your service is a waste of advertising dollars.
Just imagine the money these companies could make by simply targeting more efficiently. If I was running Dish Network, why would I want to send out every week marketing ads to people who certainly don't want my product? If I do change my mind, I am pretty certain I could find Dish Networks number or a affiliated installation dealer to obtain service. But I suspect Dish pays a ad service to mail out these flyers ever week and are paid by the number of subscribers they get. It's not about targeting at all. Its just about sheer numbers.
To throw the low-level workers into the slammer, too.
"I was just following orders" is not a valid excuse.
What your looking for is ANI (Automatic Number Identification).
with newer VoIP exchanges it's easier to spoof, but you wouldn't be able to from a legit phone company connection.
'...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
"Not worth the hassle" is the part that matters. Because for them it's all hassle and no reward.
If the Feds were to open a RICO case against a telemarketer and choose to make the telephony providers who enable them part of the conspiracy and part of the 20 years in prison, $100,000 per count prosecution then you bet your sweet ass they'd be coming up with circuit traces and source information, rapidamente.
I would imagine just considering a RICO case and telling a telco that they were considering including them as a target unless they were willing to provide this information that's a "hassle" would get action, too.
The "hassle" part just means the effort isn't worth the end product. But if the end product is, say, not spending the next 20 years in Lewisburg Penitentiary, then maybe the hassle drops off.
But you have to ask yourself why these kinds of prosecutions haven't ever been brought against spammers or fraudulent telemarketers. If legitimate businesses would quit providing hosting products, financial services, etc to these scam businesses they would be a lot harder to operate and there would be fewer of them, too.
But if the Republicans rulers of a corporation hire thousands of co-conspirators to call the people in order to prevent us from communicating by calling us and tieing up our communication devices thus not allowing us to communicate, then they have taken our voice. They are taking our voice.
Actually, Congress has written all of these laws to make an exception for... Congress. Political fundraisers can call you all they want.
First Amendment pre-dates telephones. If a salesman wants to stand on the public right-of-way and talk about his wares, that is his right under the First Amendment. The First Amendment did not give salesmen the right to make a device in my pants pocket vibrate at all hours of the day and night, masquerading as someone I might want to talk to and interrupting my private time.
Some of this is cat and mouse... whatever system is used to identify them is circumvented, when that circumvention no longer works a new one is devised. If a company gets nailed badly enough, they declare bankruptcy and continue on in another corporation using slightly improved evasion methods.
This won't stay "DOJ and four states" very long.
Yes it will. According to the article, the other 46 states already settled.
I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
Ok give me your phone number and I will call you repeatedly between 2 and 5 am to offer to sell you things of dubious value. After all, it's just speech and it's my right.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
I put a corporate death penalty up on the whitehouse.gov petitions a couple years ago. Got something like 3 signatures. It was even less popular than the one where I suggested that members of Congress should be required to use VA hospitals until the problems with VA hospitals are solved. A couple veterans I know were pretty gung-ho for that one.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
The fine for a bank failing should be the bank failing. The "bailout" should be given to depositors (there was even an existing mechanism for that, the FDIC), not to the institution that lost the funds. But no, apparently we live in an age where mediocrity and incompetence is rewarded and excellence is restricted. Cos you'll just make the rest of us look bad, ya know?
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Wrong. The FCC explicitly stated the law (47 USC 227) prohibits political robocalls to cell phones without prior express consent. The FCC even issued citations to Democratic Dialing, LLC for it.
What is permitted is non-telemarketing (including political) robocalls to LANDLINES.
Fines shouldn't go to the government. That's what causes things like corrupt cities setting up speed traps when they have a budget shortfall.
Fines for violations against the public should go into a government fund. And every year when every taxpayer files their taxes, they get a proportional share out of that fund; either as a tax credit or a refund. That way the money goes back directly to the public.
> So get a restraining order for their salesmen
Interesting idea -- how hard is that to get? It can't be _that_ easy, right? Don't you need to provide a "valid" reason?
We so need a corporate death penalty. This isn't quite the case for it to be used but, it should certainly exist. Also, if the corporation is sentenced to death, all of the C-level executives should have an automatic prison sentence that can be enhanced for their crimes.
In theory, I support the idea, but the problem is that in practice, you could end up putting 100,000 people out of a job. They would have absolutely no influence on how the company is run, and may not be in a position to rock the boat anyway, since they have to feed their families, too.
Perhaps it could work something like this: Throw the execs in jail, then confiscate all stock, and re-allocate it evenly among the remaining employees. As the sole remaining shareholders, it would be up to them to find good leadership and put things right if they want to keep their jobs. That could also be a hell of an incentive to blow the whistle.
" Throw the execs in jail, then confiscate all stock, and re-allocate it evenly among the remaining employees. As the sole remaining shareholders, it would be up to them to find good leadership and put things right if they want to keep their jobs. " I absolutely LOVE your theoretical implementation. I too have been harping about some type of "corporate death penalty" too...if corps are people, why is it OK for them to be basically immortal? With the current system, the more voracious, vicious, and predatory a corp is the longer it lives. This is the opposite of how our social, overly-emphatic human race has evolved were cooperation has been the key to our rise. We label people who act like highly successful corps as psychopaths and lock them up. Yet a large portion of the US population actually cheers on the blood sports and worships people like Gordon Gekko. We owe it to ourselves, our future generations, and society as a whole to find a "middle path" that both allows free enterprise to flourish yet actually punishes the corporate psychopaths.
Here's a 71 page reference called "Caller ID (CID) Algorithm User’s Guide". The service providing names with numbers is technically separate, called CNAME. Wikipedia has some basic info. But seeing as Caller ID was developed in 1984, far before most tech we're currently using and made to work with basic switching systems (in the teleco sense, not modern networking sense), it's quite primitive and easily spoofed. Anyone with an old modem can make scripts to spoof it.
Well, Dish is now owned by AT&T. Theoretically they COULD afford it, yet AT&T most certainly has many sub-clauses in their buyout terms that say anything done before the merger is not their issue. Since it's already been approved by the SEC, and AT&T is the definition of a heartless corp, I'm sure they are completely indemnify against anything done pre-merger. Personally I think that shouldn't be allowed; but corps have far different rules than humans.
Nasty...
Perhaps add "this includes you, AT&T" on your sign. I actually invited the AT&T U-Verse guy in, we talked to him, even had him come back a second time...just to tell him that once U-Verse included all the other BBC channels (not just BBC America) then we would most certainly get their service. Four years later, they still haven't come back yet.
Among other things, a newspaper heaved into your driveway cannot be punished as garbage. The front of your house is your open, public approach, and it's been to the Supreme Court, and speech wins every time. They can come up and knock, too.
Now if you put a fence around your yard and no tresspassing signs, that's different. A no call list might be similar to a no tresspassing sign.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Actually, that's a kind of press, the mechanical means of mass producing and distributing speech, specifically protected in the First Amendment alongside Speech itself. Modern courts have added "The Press"-qua-job-description, but the real reason is kings would backdoor censor by outlawing or controlling printing presses.
Indeed, there is a push on to do away with "The Press" job description, and being a "member" of "The Press" is synonymous with any citizen doing anything press-like, like picking up a cell phone camera or posting on Facebook. There is no special subset of citizens permitted greater freedom of speech than others.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
I think what we need is liability to the callee that aligns incentives in useful ways. For example, require caller ID to be accurate, and if the caller would be liable for $X in damages, make their telco liable for $X/2 in damages, and the caller's telco liable for $X/4 in damages, with a reasonably streamlined adjudication process. If Verizon owed me $125 for each ID-spoofed call I got in a month, they'd work pretty hard to make it reliable enough to shift that liability.
Says the guy who obviously doesn't know what the fuck he is talking about..........
AT&T purchased DirecTV. But that's okay. Post something without even doing a quick check.. You moron
Similar to class action lawsuits, the purpose of fines like this is not really to reward the victims, it's to punish the company that's breaking the law. I don't care where the money goes as long as it's not in Dish/ATT's accounts anymore.
Thanks to the War on Drugs, it's easier to buy meth than it is to buy cold medicine!
That should get results!
Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
"Sure you can come in. I hope you don't mind that the twins have smallpox" used to work well for my parents. These days, you might want to mention Ebola or Zika.
Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
We need to hold the board of directors of the corporation legally responsible for corporate crime. Fining the company for killing people is a cost of business, putting the CEO in jail is a deterent.
The 16K violation should go to each person that fell victim to it.
In today's news, a Minnesota youth basketball team has been ejected from their league for being too good.
It just wouldn't do anything. Corporations are "born" easier than humans, and their "death" is meaningless. If you slaughter CorporationA, you may rest assured that a nanosecond CorporationANowNewAndImproved emerges that inherits everything from CorporationA, including staff and production means.
What you might lose is the name. Which may well be a good thing for said corporation since they just did something that warrants being shot.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Why would the remaining employees be sole remaining shareholders or am I reading this wrong? Lots of other people and companies can own shares in a company. When a company is starting up and gets outside investors they normally trade a fairly large amount of equity for the injection of money. Public companies can have shares owned by millions of people (especially when a nationalized company such as Air Canada or the British post office first go public and people want to own a part of if). Pension funds and mutual funds own massive amounts of shares in many companies.
"Sure come on in and I'll be able to tell you how Jesus saved my life. I was a wicked person years ago but Jesus found me and now with daily prayer... hey, where are you going?"
reasonably streamlined adjudication process
No such animal, either engage a lawyer who will charge you $400 to try to win $500, or take a day off from work to go press the case yourself.
I've been dealing with a serial harasser who claims to be Google, but is damnably hard to identify - even though they purport to want my business... it's not worth the hassle of chasing down their identity to try to possibly sue them in a local court to win a judgement that is then impractical to collect.
For that bit, I was thinking basically an administrative law judge or a panel at the FCC, where their main job is to adjudicate cases like this, and so they can have streamlined accesses to relevant databases -- for example, I say "I got unsolicited calls at 9:15 on day A, 10:43 on day B", and so forth, and they can confirm with my telco that those calls were made, and get details about the callers that my carrier might not give me. If those details sustain my claim of TCPA violations, this judge or panel could award damages.
Seems optimistic, would be nice, but I've never known the legal system to try that hard to help people.
;-)
I have, in my control, multiple corporations for a variety of reasons. They can come with a whole host of benefits and can be used for all sorts of good things. I strongly urge most everyone to look into the possible benefits - you can even do some interesting tax structuring with one if you're interested in going that route. Basically, you hire yourself to go to work at your regular job and then your car becomes an asset that has depreciation, fuel costs become business expenses, and things of that nature - that's one such option that folks can use, legally, to reduce their tax burden.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
I put a corporate death penalty up on the whitehouse.gov petitions a couple years ago. Got something like 3 signatures. It was even less popular than the one where I suggested that members of Congress should be required to use VA hospitals until the problems with VA hospitals are solved. A couple veterans I know were pretty gung-ho for that one.
Did you get the word out? Certainly this is the first I've heard of either one.
Figure out how to get it to go viral on FB and you'll get the signatures.
blindly antisocialist = antisocial
Some of this is cat and mouse... whatever system is used to identify them is circumvented, when that circumvention no longer works a new one is devised. If a company gets nailed badly enough, they declare bankruptcy and continue on in another corporation using slightly improved evasion methods.
Like calling from out of the country maybe - where such laws don't apply or cannot be easily enforced.
blindly antisocialist = antisocial
The fine for a bank failing should be the bank failing. The "bailout" should be given to depositors (there was even an existing mechanism for that, the FDIC), not to the institution that lost the funds. But no, apparently we live in an age where mediocrity and incompetence is rewarded and excellence is restricted. Cos you'll just make the rest of us look bad, ya know?
Or at least be nationalized when bailed out but hey, that would be 'un-American'.
If the taxpayers bail out a company, that company should then belong to the taxpayers.
blindly antisocialist = antisocial
We so need a corporate death penalty
- and there should be a mechanism for converting it to community service. Cruel and demeaning community service, for about 4 - 5 billion years.
Ten years ago, when I was still getting calls asking me to subscribe to a satellite service, they were all 3rd party vendors, some of them dishonest. Did Dish become too stupid to use a cutout?
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
Some of this is cat and mouse... whatever system is used to identify them is circumvented, when that circumvention no longer works a new one is devised. If a company gets nailed badly enough, they declare bankruptcy and continue on in another corporation using slightly improved evasion methods.
Like calling from out of the country maybe - where such laws don't apply or cannot be easily enforced.
Yeah, the ultimate evasion - it does take quite a bit of initial investment to set up an international scam, or at least pre-existing contacts in the non-extradition country willing to help. Thankfully, most telemarketing harassers don't have that much initiative or resources.
Wrong. The FCC explicitly stated the law (47 USC 227) prohibits political robocalls to cell phones without prior express consent. The FCC even issued citations to Democratic Dialing, LLC for it.
What is permitted is non-telemarketing (including political) robocalls to LANDLINES.
So *one* anti-phone-spam law they haven't carved out an exception on. They only wrote the law to let them and their fundraisers harass us on LANDLINES. How incredibly considerate of them.
And anyone who says political calls aren't telemarketing is selling something.
When in Law School, a friend tried to frame 'fax spamming' as a Trespass to Chattels. They use your paper, ink, and equipment, after all.
If the Trespass argument held water, then perhaps it could be extended to robocalls which can, depending on your plan, use up your minutes or text credits. They'd also take up some of your answering machine or cell phone's memory.
It was a class project. I don't know if it was ever used in actual court arguments. IANAL.
You seem to think that I do that - I do not, but I still do write down business expenses, as I own a business still. In fact, I own in part, or in whole, lots of businesses now. See, I'm retired. However, YOU can do that - and it is perfectly legal, depending on how you structure it and your jurisdiction. Businesses are taxed only on profit, why should your taxes be any different? Your not an asshole for reducing your tax burden, tax avoidance is legal and ethical. Tax evasion is immoral and unethical. The two are vastly different and, yes, it's possible to abuse the former. Doing so is usually skirting a law or two. However, you're given the tools to incorporate, there are many benefits to doing so, and it might be in your best interests to look into such.
I reduce my tax burden, not as much as I suppose I could, by donating to charitable causes. I also reduce my tax burden by making long-term investments instead of short term investments. It's better for the economy to make long-term investments so those are taxed at what's known as capital gains rates while shorter stuff is actually taxed at income tax levels. Contrary to popular opinion, those day traders and HFT folks are paying income tax rates, not capital gains. It was one of the more glaring (and amusing) erroneous complaints by the OWS crowd. "We don't understand it but we don't like it!" They had some good, and legitimate, complaints but a muddied message doesn't convey that very well.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."